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You've seen it, I've seen it: dropping at "knee height." WHY??

new rules dropping the ball knee height

174 replies to this topic

#151 nsxguy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:11 PM

View PostBody_Visions, on 10 January 2019 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think it looks amateurish and contrived at its very best.  Isn’t this the same organization that didn’t like the “look” of the extended putters?

I don't know why but given your username and looking at your avatar, that strikes me as very funny. :lol:

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#152 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:22 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 10 January 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

View Postnsxguy, on 10 January 2019 - 10:58 AM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 10 January 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostJoker91, on 10 January 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 10 January 2019 - 10:19 AM, said:

Agree to disagree.  Just don't see it if it's allowed to roll less.

You know where only talking on slopes right ? Flat ground is a wash
Its not like it can only roll 3" now. The relief area is 1 or 2 club lengths (depending on the rule) of the longest club in your bag besides the putter. That's not a small area.
I think the system can be manipulated, a player certain can drop right at the edge of the relief area, where if the ball bounces just a few inches in a specific direction it could end up outside the relief area.  I think the system could be improved by allowing the ball to move a little, even if it ends up outside the Relief Area.  I believe that the goal was to keep the ball relatively close to the Reference Point, for any of the drop situations, which led to the lower drop height, and the requirement that the ball stay in the Relief Area.  As with some of the other rules (including the yellow penalty area topic discussed at length in another thread), it won't surprise me if this one gets tweaked a bit before the normal 2-year cycle of rules changes.

That's an excellent point and it will happen.

Guys will absolutely drop from knee height at the edge of the RA hoping it will roll just outside of the PA and they'll get to place it.

You guys are killing me.  You and Dave essentially agree with my gripe and yet still you defend the rule !?
I agree that the rule can be manipulated.  I do NOT agree that the ball will roll just as far, which is what you have claimed over and over.  I do not agree that it is difficult in any way to drop from knee high.  I don't think this looks any sillier than the previous old way of dropping, over your shoulder.   I have never said that there aren't cracks and loopholes in the new rules, there are always cracks and loopholes.  In any large endeavor, there are always things that need to be corrected or revised or tweaked.  As I said in the post that you quoted, I won't be surprised if there weren't a few clarifications and/or tweaks to the rules well before the next 2-year revision cycle comes around.

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#153 nsxguy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:27 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 10 January 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

View Postnsxguy, on 10 January 2019 - 10:58 AM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 10 January 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostJoker91, on 10 January 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 10 January 2019 - 10:19 AM, said:

Agree to disagree.  Just don't see it if it's allowed to roll less.

You know where only talking on slopes right ? Flat ground is a wash
Its not like it can only roll 3" now. The relief area is 1 or 2 club lengths (depending on the rule) of the longest club in your bag besides the putter. That's not a small area.
I think the system can be manipulated, a player certain can drop right at the edge of the relief area, where if the ball bounces just a few inches in a specific direction it could end up outside the relief area.  I think the system could be improved by allowing the ball to move a little, even if it ends up outside the Relief Area.  I believe that the goal was to keep the ball relatively close to the Reference Point, for any of the drop situations, which led to the lower drop height, and the requirement that the ball stay in the Relief Area.  As with some of the other rules (including the yellow penalty area topic discussed at length in another thread), it won't surprise me if this one gets tweaked a bit before the normal 2-year cycle of rules changes.

That's an excellent point and it will happen.

Guys will absolutely drop from knee height at the edge of the RA hoping it will roll just outside of the PA and they'll get to place it.

You guys are killing me.  You and Dave essentially agree with my gripe and yet still you defend the rule !?

Are you talking about (large) slopes again ? Or drops in general ?

IF the former, drops that roll too far are going to be on a very steep slope and placing the ball ain't gonna help you much anyway. In informal games where it is THAT obvious that the ball will roll even back into the hazard I've seen guys just place it to save time. In a more formal comp you won't be able to do that. Oh well.

On a less inclined slope the ball the ball will clearly run less far that a drop from the shoulder. And, if dropped near the edge of the RA, WILL roll outside of it twice and can be placed.

HOWEVER, the vast majority of those situations I've seen are very near what used to be called a lateral hazard and with most of the time you drop as far away from the margin as possible as that's the most likely place to a) give you a clear shot (when there are trees/bushes/etc you need to avoid near the PA) and b) give you the best chance at the most level lie you can find,,,,,,,,,,, so one is not likely to drop so near the edge of the RA nearest the PA.

If the latter (drops in general), the vast majority of other drops I've seen are on relatively level land and a LOT of players will simply drop right near the reference point (usually the middle of the RA) so from knee height the ball is less likely to roll out of the area. You may, on occasion, see someone drop near the edge but mostly I expect it'll be right in the middle; right behind the RP.

So no, I don't agree with you. You claimed/insinuated there will be MORE (re-)drops. While I hadn't initially thought about Dave's scenario of dropping near the edge hoping to get to place I still disagree with your "theory".
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#154 Obee

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:31 PM

Is someone on here actually claiming that the ball will bounce  just as far when dropped from knee height as from shoulder height?

Really?

To that person, I say: go drop 20 balls and measure them from five or six different spots on the golf course. Obviously, if you drop a ball on hardpan that slopes into a hazard, you are going to have to re-drop that ball and then place it whether you are dropping from knee height or shoulder height.

But there are many instances where dropping from knee height will save you from having to re-drop.

The rule will, absolutely, reduce the amount of re-drops and places.

Which will, over time, slightly speed up play.
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#155 bladehunter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:35 PM

Had to work hard to disagree there.


Can we quantify “ just as far “.  When I say it I’m saying a ball that rolls 6 ft from shoulder height will roll 4/5 ft from knee height.  I don’t think anyone meant same literally. Just practically.

Just like I assume you don’t mean the ball from knee height will roll 3 inches vs 6 ft from shoulder height?

Edited by bladehunter, 10 January 2019 - 12:39 PM.

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#156 vman

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:36 PM

Waist high would've done.
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#157 bladehunter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:38 PM

View PostObee, on 10 January 2019 - 12:31 PM, said:

Is someone on here actually claiming that the ball will bounce  just as far when dropped from knee height as from shoulder height?

Really?

To that person, I say: go drop 20 balls and measure them from five or six different spots on the golf course. Obviously, if you drop a ball on hardpan that slopes into a hazard, you are going to have to re-drop that ball and then place it whether you are dropping from knee height or shoulder height.

But there are many instances where dropping from knee height will save you from having to re-drop.

The rule will, absolutely, reduce the amount of re-drops and places.

Which will, over time, slightly speed up play.

Maybe it’s course type that disconnects this. ?   In my travels dropping is generally creek or lakeside with big slope into water. Or flat and/or 4 plus inch Bermuda wher no roll will happen  if dropped from a tree top.

Edited by bladehunter, 10 January 2019 - 12:39 PM.

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#158 Obee

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:39 PM

View Postvman, on 10 January 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

Waist high would've done.

That is something I can agree with. Because there is variability no matter what, I would've preferred the rule to be "somewhere between knee and waist height."
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#159 Joker91

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:42 PM

People would have been complaining about waist height, knee to waist height, ankle height, pretty much anything cause it's what people do when something changes. Most complaints are just to complain and have no basis in logic or reason

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#160 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:50 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 10 January 2019 - 12:38 PM, said:

View PostObee, on 10 January 2019 - 12:31 PM, said:

Is someone on here actually claiming that the ball will bounce  just as far when dropped from knee height as from shoulder height?

Really?

To that person, I say: go drop 20 balls and measure them from five or six different spots on the golf course. Obviously, if you drop a ball on hardpan that slopes into a hazard, you are going to have to re-drop that ball and then place it whether you are dropping from knee height or shoulder height.

But there are many instances where dropping from knee height will save you from having to re-drop.

The rule will, absolutely, reduce the amount of re-drops and places.

Which will, over time, slightly speed up play.

Maybe it's course type that disconnects this. ?   In my travels dropping is generally creek or lakeside with big slope into water. Or flat and/or 4 plus inch Bermuda wher no roll will happen  if dropped from a tree top.

There is an infinite variability of slopes and ground situations, there was not a choice that could have worked for every one.  At some combination of slope and ground cover, even the extreme measure of placing the ball wouldn't make it stay there.  At the other end of the spectrum, as you say, you could drop it from 50 feet high and the ball wouldn't move.  To call the decision a poor one because it won't work in some extreme cases is simply foolish.  The ball will bounce and roll less, in general, from a lower drop height.  That was ONE of the considerations in lowering the height, so this choice is a move in the desired direction..  

View PostObee, on 10 January 2019 - 12:39 PM, said:

View Postvman, on 10 January 2019 - 12:36 PM, said:

Waist high would've done.

That is something I can agree with. Because there is variability no matter what, I would've preferred the rule to be "somewhere between knee and waist height."
I wouldn't have had a problem with that, it would be another possible compromise to decrease bounce and roll while maintaining some level of randomness.  There's not a single unique "right" answer.  In my opinion, the only "wrong" answer would have been to place the ball for drops.
For everyone that believes the Ruling Bodies listen to nobody outside of their offices, this is a specific case where the original proposed rule was changed after the comment period.  Apparently they DID listen to some of the feedback they got from golfers.


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#161 Vindog

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:16 PM

View PostBody_Visions, on 10 January 2019 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think it looks amateurish and contrived at its very best.  Isn’t this the same organization that didn’t like the “look” of the extended putters?

The R&A?

View PostJoker91, on 10 January 2019 - 12:42 PM, said:

People would have been complaining about waist height, knee to waist height, ankle height, pretty much anything cause it's what people do when something changes. Most complaints are just to complain and have no basis in logic or reason

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#162 bscinstnct

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:50 PM

Lol, Rory busting BH chops
https://www.golf.com...ating-asterisk/

Jordan Spieth is making his 2019 debut at the Sony Open this week, which means his first exposure to golf’s new rules — and there’s at least one he’s not sold on.

“One that I don’t really understand necessarily is the drop,” Spieth told reporters. Under the new rules, players must drop from knee height, rather than shoulder height, which led to a series of awkward visuals.

“You drop it knee height, but like, what’s the advantage of dropping it shoulder height? It’s actually probably a disadvantage, so why can’t you still do that? You should be able to drop it from shoulder to knee height in my opinion. It doesn’t do any good and honestly it’s like, a frustrating asterisk that I have to re-pick it up and re-drop from your knee.”

While players have generally reacted well to the rules changes, Spieth is not alone in his criticism of the drop protocol. Bryson DeChambeau had a similar reaction at last week’s Tournament of Champions. “I think the knee-drop one. That you have to drop it from knee height is a bit absurd, unfortunately,” he said.

Rory McIlroy added his skepticism. “We’re saying that Brian Harman has got a big advantage, he can basically place it. Where you have someone like Tony Finau who is dropping it probably from like, waist-high for me.”

Spieth added that he doesn’t expect everyday golfers to take the new drop rule seriously. “What if they just take a drop from the cart path. I don’t think they probably care. They will still drop it from the shoulder. Technically, you take a drop from your shoulder and play out, you could be penalized for that. Doesn’t make much sense.

“It’s a disadvantage to drop it that high, so that one I didn’t really understand fully. It was cool that you’re able to get lower to drop it. I thought you would be able to do it at any height.”

Edited by bscinstnct, 10 January 2019 - 01:51 PM.


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#163 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:16 PM

View Postbscinstnct, on 10 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Lol, Rory busting BH chops
https://www.golf.com...ating-asterisk/

Jordan Spieth is making his 2019 debut at the Sony Open this week, which means his first exposure to golf’s new rules — and there’s at least one he’s not sold on.

“One that I don’t really understand necessarily is the drop,” Spieth told reporters. Under the new rules, players must drop from knee height, rather than shoulder height, which led to a series of awkward visuals.

“You drop it knee height, but like, what’s the advantage of dropping it shoulder height? It’s actually probably a disadvantage, so why can’t you still do that? You should be able to drop it from shoulder to knee height in my opinion. It doesn’t do any good and honestly it’s like, a frustrating asterisk that I have to re-pick it up and re-drop from your knee.”

While players have generally reacted well to the rules changes, Spieth is not alone in his criticism of the drop protocol. Bryson DeChambeau had a similar reaction at last week’s Tournament of Champions. “I think the knee-drop one. That you have to drop it from knee height is a bit absurd, unfortunately,” he said.

Rory McIlroy added his skepticism. “We’re saying that Brian Harman has got a big advantage, he can basically place it. Where you have someone like Tony Finau who is dropping it probably from like, waist-high for me.”

Spieth added that he doesn’t expect everyday golfers to take the new drop rule seriously. “What if they just take a drop from the cart path. I don’t think they probably care. They will still drop it from the shoulder. Technically, you take a drop from your shoulder and play out, you could be penalized for that. Doesn’t make much sense.

“It’s a disadvantage to drop it that high, so that one I didn’t really understand fully. It was cool that you’re able to get lower to drop it. I thought you would be able to do it at any height.”

What a poorly informed group of people those PGA "stars" are!  They have no idea what the motivation for the rule change was, they just know that they don't like it.  And Rory apparently didn't realize that Tony Finau has always dropped it from a foot higher than Rory did, he just now realized that Finau is taller.  Speith is very complimentary to you and I, though, saying that we will just do what we've always done, and pay no attention to the rules.  And why introduce a penalty for taking an improper drop, that's never been done befo....well....oh yeah, that's always been part of the dropping rules.  You know, I'm starting to think bifurcation would be interesting, fun to see how this bunch of no-nothings would come up with a comprehensive set of rules on their own.

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#164 bladehunter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:26 PM

View Postbscinstnct, on 10 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Lol, Rory busting BH chops
https://www.golf.com...ating-asterisk/

Jordan Spieth is making his 2019 debut at the Sony Open this week, which means his first exposure to golf’s new rules — and there’s at least one he’s not sold on.

“One that I don’t really understand necessarily is the drop,” Spieth told reporters. Under the new rules, players must drop from knee height, rather than shoulder height, which led to a series of awkward visuals.

“You drop it knee height, but like, what’s the advantage of dropping it shoulder height? It’s actually probably a disadvantage, so why can’t you still do that? You should be able to drop it from shoulder to knee height in my opinion. It doesn’t do any good and honestly it’s like, a frustrating asterisk that I have to re-pick it up and re-drop from your knee.”

While players have generally reacted well to the rules changes, Spieth is not alone in his criticism of the drop protocol. Bryson DeChambeau had a similar reaction at last week’s Tournament of Champions. “I think the knee-drop one. That you have to drop it from knee height is a bit absurd, unfortunately,” he said.

Rory McIlroy added his skepticism. “We’re saying that Brian Harman has got a big advantage, he can basically place it. Where you have someone like Tony Finau who is dropping it probably from like, waist-high for me.”

Spieth added that he doesn’t expect everyday golfers to take the new drop rule seriously. “What if they just take a drop from the cart path. I don’t think they probably care. They will still drop it from the shoulder. Technically, you take a drop from your shoulder and play out, you could be penalized for that. Doesn’t make much sense.

“It’s a disadvantage to drop it that high, so that one I didn’t really understand fully. It was cool that you’re able to get lower to drop it. I thought you would be able to do it at any height.”

Hilarious... if Im Brian Harmon is punch him in the belly button next time I saw him.  Lol.  

How tall does Rory think he is ? lol.
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#165 Dpavs

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:36 PM

View Postbscinstnct, on 10 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Lol, Rory busting BH chops
https://www.golf.com...ating-asterisk/

Jordan Spieth is making his 2019 debut at the Sony Open this week, which means his first exposure to golf's new rules — and there's at least one he's not sold on.

"One that I don't really understand necessarily is the drop," Spieth told reporters. Under the new rules, players must drop from knee height, rather than shoulder height, which led to a series of awkward visuals.

"You drop it knee height, but like, what's the advantage of dropping it shoulder height? It's actually probably a disadvantage, so why can't you still do that? You should be able to drop it from shoulder to knee height in my opinion. It doesn't do any good and honestly it's like, a frustrating asterisk that I have to re-pick it up and re-drop from your knee."

While players have generally reacted well to the rules changes, Spieth is not alone in his criticism of the drop protocol. Bryson DeChambeau had a similar reaction at last week's Tournament of Champions. "I think the knee-drop one. That you have to drop it from knee height is a bit absurd, unfortunately," he said.

Rory McIlroy added his skepticism. "We're saying that Brian Harman has got a big advantage, he can basically place it. Where you have someone like Tony Finau who is dropping it probably from like, waist-high for me."

Spieth added that he doesn't expect everyday golfers to take the new drop rule seriously. "What if they just take a drop from the cart path. I don't think they probably care. They will still drop it from the shoulder. Technically, you take a drop from your shoulder and play out, you could be penalized for that. Doesn't make much sense.

"It's a disadvantage to drop it that high, so that one I didn't really understand fully. It was cool that you're able to get lower to drop it. I thought you would be able to do it at any height."

I wonder if the players who like to knee jerk comments on this sort of stuff have any conception of how whiny and self entitled they come off as these days?


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#166 bladehunter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:39 PM

View PostDpavs, on 10 January 2019 - 03:36 PM, said:

View Postbscinstnct, on 10 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Lol, Rory busting BH chops
https://www.golf.com...ating-asterisk/

Jordan Spieth is making his 2019 debut at the Sony Open this week, which means his first exposure to golf's new rules — and there's at least one he's not sold on.

"One that I don't really understand necessarily is the drop," Spieth told reporters. Under the new rules, players must drop from knee height, rather than shoulder height, which led to a series of awkward visuals.

"You drop it knee height, but like, what's the advantage of dropping it shoulder height? It's actually probably a disadvantage, so why can't you still do that? You should be able to drop it from shoulder to knee height in my opinion. It doesn't do any good and honestly it's like, a frustrating asterisk that I have to re-pick it up and re-drop from your knee."

While players have generally reacted well to the rules changes, Spieth is not alone in his criticism of the drop protocol. Bryson DeChambeau had a similar reaction at last week's Tournament of Champions. "I think the knee-drop one. That you have to drop it from knee height is a bit absurd, unfortunately," he said.

Rory McIlroy added his skepticism. "We're saying that Brian Harman has got a big advantage, he can basically place it. Where you have someone like Tony Finau who is dropping it probably from like, waist-high for me."

Spieth added that he doesn't expect everyday golfers to take the new drop rule seriously. "What if they just take a drop from the cart path. I don't think they probably care. They will still drop it from the shoulder. Technically, you take a drop from your shoulder and play out, you could be penalized for that. Doesn't make much sense.

"It's a disadvantage to drop it that high, so that one I didn't really understand fully. It was cool that you're able to get lower to drop it. I thought you would be able to do it at any height."

I wonder if the players who like to knee jerk comments on this sort of stuff have any conception of how whiny and self entitled they come off as these days?

Have to remember. These are answers to questions.  Can’t fault the guys for their opinions.  Fault the media members for asking questions that lead to these answers.   Unless you prefer tiger type answers.  Just a stare down and maybe a laugh.
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#167 bscinstnct

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:44 PM

View PostVindog, on 10 January 2019 - 01:16 PM, said:

View PostBody_Visions, on 10 January 2019 - 12:05 PM, said:

I think it looks amateurish and contrived at its very best.  Isn’t this the same organization that didn’t like the “look” of the extended putters?

The R&A?

View PostJoker91, on 10 January 2019 - 12:42 PM, said:

People would have been complaining about waist height, knee to waist height, ankle height, pretty much anything cause it's what people do when something changes. Most complaints are just to complain and have no basis in logic or reason

Boy are they ever entertaining though.

What does the R&A do all day?

"What say we make the players drop from knee height? It will drive them bloody mad <snort>. "

"Yes, Yessss. Capital idea. We could...wait....our quarry has been spotted! Tally-ho!"



Posted Image

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#168 Dpavs

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:13 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 10 January 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

View PostDpavs, on 10 January 2019 - 03:36 PM, said:

View Postbscinstnct, on 10 January 2019 - 01:50 PM, said:

Lol, Rory busting BH chops
https://www.golf.com...ating-asterisk/

Jordan Spieth is making his 2019 debut at the Sony Open this week, which means his first exposure to golf's new rules — and there's at least one he's not sold on.

"One that I don't really understand necessarily is the drop," Spieth told reporters. Under the new rules, players must drop from knee height, rather than shoulder height, which led to a series of awkward visuals.

"You drop it knee height, but like, what's the advantage of dropping it shoulder height? It's actually probably a disadvantage, so why can't you still do that? You should be able to drop it from shoulder to knee height in my opinion. It doesn't do any good and honestly it's like, a frustrating asterisk that I have to re-pick it up and re-drop from your knee."

While players have generally reacted well to the rules changes, Spieth is not alone in his criticism of the drop protocol. Bryson DeChambeau had a similar reaction at last week's Tournament of Champions. "I think the knee-drop one. That you have to drop it from knee height is a bit absurd, unfortunately," he said.

Rory McIlroy added his skepticism. "We're saying that Brian Harman has got a big advantage, he can basically place it. Where you have someone like Tony Finau who is dropping it probably from like, waist-high for me."

Spieth added that he doesn't expect everyday golfers to take the new drop rule seriously. "What if they just take a drop from the cart path. I don't think they probably care. They will still drop it from the shoulder. Technically, you take a drop from your shoulder and play out, you could be penalized for that. Doesn't make much sense.

"It's a disadvantage to drop it that high, so that one I didn't really understand fully. It was cool that you're able to get lower to drop it. I thought you would be able to do it at any height."

I wonder if the players who like to knee jerk comments on this sort of stuff have any conception of how whiny and self entitled they come off as these days?

Have to remember. These are answers to questions.  Can't fault the guys for their opinions.  Fault the media members for asking questions that lead to these answers.   Unless you prefer tiger type answers.  Just a stare down and maybe a laugh.

True enough and now that you mention it... the Tiger response would have been much better!

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#169 bladehunter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 06:33 PM

I agree ^. Love tigers pressers.
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#170 Murv

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:36 PM

How do some of you get the ball out of the hole if you can't bend over?

Murv


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#171 Mr. Hogan

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:21 AM

Dropping from knee height looks f*****g stupid. That's all the analysis that's needed.

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#172 nsxguy

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 02:05 PM

View PostMr. Hogan, on 11 January 2019 - 12:21 AM, said:

Dropping from knee height looks f*****g stupid. That's all the analysis that's needed.

Yeah, this doesn't look stupid at all !!!

Ohhhhhh,,,,,,,,,, my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, god,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, didn't he drop it from too HIGH a point ?!?!?! :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

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#173 Mr. Hogan

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 02:09 PM

View Postnsxguy, on 11 January 2019 - 02:05 PM, said:

View PostMr. Hogan, on 11 January 2019 - 12:21 AM, said:

Dropping from knee height looks f*****g stupid. That's all the analysis that's needed.

Yeah, this doesn't look stupid at all !!!

Ohhhhhh,,,,,,,,,, my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, god,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, didn't he drop it from too HIGH a point ?!?!?! :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

Posted Image

No, that does not look stupid.

Personally, I'm going to keep dropping from shoulder height. The USGA can suck it.

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#174 nsxguy

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 02:19 PM

Aliens.jpg
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#175 ray9898

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 03:48 PM

LOL....I was amazed at the lack of logic on here a few days ago but now it has doubled down.  Some people complain just to complain, they get out of bed everyday to find the next 'outrage'..


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