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Grip Solvent Preventing Epoxy From Fully Curing?


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#31 OregonWRX333

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:25 AM

Just to throw my 2 cents in. I used to use acetone to clean hosel prior to apply epoxy. I had bunch of heads come loose and not break. Came to the conclusion that the acetone was smoothing out the hosel and not giving the epoxy something to bond to. Switched to rubbing alchohol and havent had any problems. Just a thought.

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#32 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 11:32 AM

View PostOregonWRX333, on 07 January 2019 - 11:25 AM, said:

Just to throw my 2 cents in. I used to use acetone to clean hosel prior to apply epoxy. I had bunch of heads come loose and not break. Came to the conclusion that the acetone was smoothing out the hosel and not giving the epoxy something to bond to. Switched to rubbing alchohol and havent had any problems. Just a thought.

Smoothing out the hosel?  Acetone has no effect on steel.  It can’t smooth it out.  Of course on plastic ferrules its a whole different story.
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#33 OregonWRX333

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 12:46 PM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 07 January 2019 - 11:32 AM, said:

View PostOregonWRX333, on 07 January 2019 - 11:25 AM, said:

Just to throw my 2 cents in. I used to use acetone to clean hosel prior to apply epoxy. I had bunch of heads come loose and not break. Came to the conclusion that the acetone was smoothing out the hosel and not giving the epoxy something to bond to. Switched to rubbing alchohol and havent had any problems. Just a thought.

Smoothing out the hosel?  Acetone has no effect on steel.  It can’t smooth it out.  Of course on plastic ferrules its a whole different story.

Just sharing my experiences. Made the switch sway from cleaning with acetone and havent had a head come loose. All my other prep has stayed consistent. Maybe its not smoothing out steel hosel but it did have an effect on how the epoxy bonded to the inside of the hosel.
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#34 dunn

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 02:05 PM

I put quickest epoxy on right away after mixing...seems like culprit to me

Nothing wrong with using acetone to clean parts as long as it is all evaporated b4 build imo......I wouldn't clean with it and immediately glue something up though

Never had any issues with acetone, it actually dries very fast and rather clean parts than have any dust from sanding.....

Edited by dunn, 07 January 2019 - 02:09 PM.


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#35 halliedog

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:55 PM

View Postwkuo3, on 07 January 2019 - 08:58 AM, said:

Guys had covered almost every possibilities for the scenario.
I just like to remind you that if not using the  100% pure acetone, some of the nail polish acetone has additives in it for the obvious reason , to prevent damaging the nail.  The additives do not evaporate. Always make sure all surface are clean and free of moisture before applying epoxy.

In your case, it's the failure of the epoxy caused the issue.  It will also take much longer time to cure the epoxy in lower temperature.
Always , always keep the left over epoxy to inspect the curing process.  Keep in mind the exposed left over epoxy will cure faster than the epoxy inside the cover of the hosel.

Oh, it's a good practice, never put on the grip before the epoxy is fully cured.  Either using grip solvent or air to install the grips.  And didn't you overlap the grip tape to cover the opening of the end of the shaft when using solvent ?  That practice was done to prevent solvent dripping down the inside of the shaft.

1. It was 100% pure acetone (or at least as pure as you can buy these days), not nail polish remover (which I will use in a pinch to touch up paintfill jobs, since I use nail polish for that)
2. While epoxy wasn't fully cured, it was set enough that I could put in the vise to grip, then twist the grip around while the head was head was held in a position to allow me to align the grip as close as possible to straight, then putted/dropped the putter on ground to chip for 2 hours, and then put back in my car with no epoxy breakdown/twisting of the head
3. The club was built with with "quick set" epoxy (which should set to a "playable" level in 60-90 minutes at 70*) in my shop around 68-70*, then set up in front of my fireplace for +/- 90 minutes   I didn't measure the temp on the hearth of my fireplace, but am confident it was well above 70*.  The only time extreme cold was introduced was when it was left in my car outside overnight and it went down to 30-32*, then I had the issue the next morning.
4. I did keep the leftover epoxy, and when I got home after experiencing the failure immediately check it - solid as a rock.  That's when I noticed the "oily/greasy" substance leaking out of the shaft onto the head and surmised it was solvent that had leaked down the inside of shaft and either had a bad reaction with the epoxy, or simply frozen overnight and busted the bond loose
5. I 99% of the time would never install grips before epoxy is fully cured, but it was going to be near 50* in NE OH the next day.  I had a money game lined up with some pigeons, wanted to use the new putter prior to getting into that, so once it got to the point I could twist on the head without it breaking loose I went ahead and started gripping so I could get some practice time in before it got dark
6. I ALWAYS cover the end of the shaft with excess tape to prevent solvent running inside.  (And by the way, that practice wasn't started to prevent solvent from going down inside the shaft while installing grips, as older solvents were usually more alcohol based and would quickly evaporate before any rusting could occur.  It was originally done to keep water/debris from getting down the butt hole causing rust/rattle).  However, this was my first time using a SS Counterbalance grip, and I figured there was no need to cover since it would need removed in order to get the weight down inside the shaft.  I now know that you need to cover the butt end of shaft, then cut a hole through the tape to insert the weight - one of the many things I learned this weekend :) !

I truly believe it came down to a combination of:
  -  Lack of epoxy coverage due to me using the tubing cutter which compressed the shaft to where it scraped off too much epoxy when seating on the post
  -  More solvent than I realized going inside the shaft and causing an adverse reaction to the curing process
  -  The freezing temps causing some expansion of the water based solvent, which cased what little bond there was to break free

It was really just weird that it was fine for the first few hours.  If it was all because of just one of those things I'd think it would've broken during my practice session, but all 3 things were probably a perfect storm.  I've learned my lesson and won't go against common practices just to rush a club into play.  Heck, I've even learned 4-5 new things from everyone posting in this thread that I'll use going forward.  That's the great thing about this place - most everyone offering good advice, differing opinions, and if you glean what makes sense you can learn quite a bit!

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#36 Bigarch

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:31 PM

Old guy in the corner says... "Ah hell just pin it" :)  Best of luck, OP
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#37 halliedog

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 10:07 PM

View PostBigarch, on 07 January 2019 - 09:31 PM, said:

Old guy in the corner says... "Ah hell just pin it" :)  Best of luck, OP

Have to admit, pinning was before my time - if you're referring to older shafts being "pinned" through the hosel.  I think I probably played some pinned irons back when I was beginning in the late 70s, but that was way before I'd ever tried putting a club together!  I've never even done a bore-through hosel wood, let alone a pin or whipping a persimmon neck!  I watched my dad refinish some "Wood" woods, but that was a bit out of my grasp at the time - still good memories though!
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#38 denkea

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

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#39 wkuo3

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:35 AM

View Posthalliedog, on 07 January 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:


I truly believe it came down to a combination of:
  -  Lack of epoxy coverage due to me using the tubing cutter which compressed the shaft to where it scraped off too much epoxy when seating on the post
  -  More solvent than I realized going inside the shaft and causing an adverse reaction to the curing process
  -  The freezing temps causing some expansion of the water based solvent, which cased what little bond there was to break free



Yes, always a chance to learn something new.  Even for the seasoned club builders.
You got it pretty much there on your assessment for the epoxy failure.

Sometimes it's not worth the time to investigate,  I would just do it over again then inspect the result.  If it failed the second time, then it most likely would be the quality of the epoxy.

I've had only one failed epoxy in the last few decades and spotted it before the driver head flew off.  Lucky you had this experience with the putter instead of finding it out on the first tee box.

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#40 halliedog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:02 PM

View Postwkuo3, on 08 January 2019 - 10:35 AM, said:

View Posthalliedog, on 07 January 2019 - 08:55 PM, said:

I truly believe it came down to a combination of:
  -  Lack of epoxy coverage due to me using the tubing cutter which compressed the shaft to where it scraped off too much epoxy when seating on the post
  -  More solvent than I realized going inside the shaft and causing an adverse reaction to the curing process
  -  The freezing temps causing some expansion of the water based solvent, which cased what little bond there was to break free



Yes, always a chance to learn something new.  Even for the seasoned club builders.
You got it pretty much there on your assessment for the epoxy failure.

Sometimes it's not worth the time to investigate,  I would just do it over again then inspect the result.  If it failed the second time, then it most likely would be the quality of the epoxy.

I've had only one failed epoxy in the last few decades and spotted it before the driver head flew off.  Lucky you had this experience with the putter instead of finding it out on the first tee box.

Yep, agree 100%.  Interestingly enough the other failure I had was with an OLD Ping with the plastic adapter.  Luckily for me it was a straight away Par 5 with no water involved.  I hit it awesome the first 3 holes, and nothing felt "off".  Then on the Par 5 5th the drive went dead straight about 190 and the head also went straight but only 75.  I asked on here about it, and was quickly informed that in addition to prepping the INSIDE of the adapter for the shaft, I should've also prepped the outside of the hosel that glued into the club head itself.  This club was from before the days of adjustable hosels with screws.  Once I posted on here and got good advice I re-shafted and it's still in the bag!

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#41 halliedog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:07 PM

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Really?  I've always been of the impression that acetone was the way to go.  Guess I learned something new again today!  Do you have any links you could provide so I could learn why Alcohol is better than Acetone, or what residues it leaves?
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#42 Socrates

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 07:19 PM

View Posthalliedog, on 08 January 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Really?  I've always been of the impression that acetone was the way to go.  Guess I learned something new again today!  Do you have any links you could provide so I could learn why Alcohol is better than Acetone, or what residues it leaves?
It all depends on the purity.  Most isopropyl alcohol you can buy isn't very pure.  Acetone is usually better with fewer impurities.

That being said... IF you prep your materials properly (metal freshly sanded and graphite wiped clean with a clean, dry cloth, you don't need to use either alcohol or acetone.  The only time I ever use acetone is if I have had to remove oils or someones crappy epoxy attempt or some of the cheap crud that passes for epoxy in Asia.
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#43 halliedog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 08:03 PM

View PostSocrates, on 08 January 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

View Posthalliedog, on 08 January 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Really?  I've always been of the impression that acetone was the way to go.  Guess I learned something new again today!  Do you have any links you could provide so I could learn why Alcohol is better than Acetone, or what residues it leaves?
It all depends on the purity.  Most isopropyl alcohol you can buy isn't very pure.  Acetone is usually better with fewer impurities.

That being said... IF you prep your materials properly (metal freshly sanded and graphite wiped clean with a clean, dry cloth, you don't need to use either alcohol or acetone.  The only time I ever use acetone is if I have had to remove oils or someones crappy epoxy attempt or some of the cheap crud that passes for epoxy in Asia.

So in your opinion, after prepping a shaft just a wipe-down with a clean dry cloth will be sufficient?  That makes sense, since the prepping should've removed all the oils and you only need to remove the sanding dust?

And in your opinion, if you are going to use something, is it better to use off-the-shelf drug store alcohol or acetone you can get at Lowes/Home Depot in the paint section?
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#44 mjguzik

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 08:51 PM

Alcohol over acetone?  The flash point - temperature it evaporates - is about 50 degrees apart.  Acetone will evaporate at about 0 degrees. Chance of a residue is pretty minimal.  Alcohol in cold weather, probably not evaporating.
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#45 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:40 PM

View Posthalliedog, on 08 January 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 08 January 2019 - 07:19 PM, said:

View Posthalliedog, on 08 January 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Really?  I've always been of the impression that acetone was the way to go.  Guess I learned something new again today!  Do you have any links you could provide so I could learn why Alcohol is better than Acetone, or what residues it leaves?
It all depends on the purity.  Most isopropyl alcohol you can buy isn't very pure.  Acetone is usually better with fewer impurities.

That being said... IF you prep your materials properly (metal freshly sanded and graphite wiped clean with a clean, dry cloth, you don't need to use either alcohol or acetone.  The only time I ever use acetone is if I have had to remove oils or someones crappy epoxy attempt or some of the cheap crud that passes for epoxy in Asia.

So in your opinion, after prepping a shaft just a wipe-down with a clean dry cloth will be sufficient?  That makes sense, since the prepping should've removed all the oils and you only need to remove the sanding dust?

And in your opinion, if you are going to use something, is it better to use off-the-shelf drug store alcohol or acetone you can get at Lowes/Home Depot in the paint section?
Acetone.

I will only wipe down a graphite shaft Iíve prepped.  Steel, I donít.  Use compressed air to blow out the hosel and then epoxy away.   One thing I always do is once Iíve got the epoxy on the shaft and in the hosel, I rotate the shaft in the hosel several times to make sure that any possible debris left behind is incorporated into the epoxy.

Edited by Socrates, 08 January 2019 - 10:58 PM.

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#46 delmer

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:04 PM

View Posthalliedog, on 06 January 2019 - 06:40 PM, said:

View PostBad9, on 06 January 2019 - 05:50 PM, said:

View Posthalliedog, on 06 January 2019 - 02:07 PM, said:

  I thought I had read somewhere that after mixing epoxy you were supposed to give it some time to begin setting up, or "activating", but perhaps I misunderstood.

In 20+yrs of club making and using perhaps a dozen different epoxies I have never heard or read that. Ever. With the quick set you are essentially allowing it to cure before you assemble the parts.

Not sure this is the only place I've heard it, but here is a link, check post # 11:
http://www.golfwrx.c...poxy-cure-time/

Now you can't say you never heard or read that - Never! :)

If it is cured before I assembled the parts, why did it hold up well for my 2 hour practice session (being taken in/out of headcover, gently tossed to ground on occasion when I wanted to pick up a wedge and chip several balls, etc...)  and then fail somewhere between the car and first green the next day is what I was really trying to figure out?  I'm still thinking the solvent being introduced before a full cure and the freezing temps had a the largest impact.  And since there likely wasn't enough surface coverage to stand up to this was probably not helping.

And I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating what I've always done and has worked out fine until now.  (I've been building clubs for over 30 years myself, although never professionally, but only had one issue that I can recall and that was some prepping I neglected to do.  Again, I hardly ever use this particular epoxy, so experience is limited).  Since Socrates mentioned pot life of 24 hour epoxy is much longer, I have to believe I've been luck up to this point by letting it "gel" for 6-10 minutes.  Won't be doing that any more!

Don't believe everything you read, especially when a guy who uses his car as a curing oven is the author.  There is no reason to let epoxy sit for a while before using it.  Once it is thoroughly mixed it is ready to go.

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#47 denkea

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:21 AM

View Posthalliedog, on 08 January 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Really?  I've always been of the impression that acetone was the way to go.  Guess I learned something new again today!  Do you have any links you could provide so I could learn why Alcohol is better than Acetone, or what residues it leaves?

I used to use acetone exclusively until I read that it did indeed have a residue.  Not taking what I read as gospel I decided to find out myself.  Took a hand held mirror.  Layed it flat.  Put a drop of Acetone and a drop of Alcohol side by side and covered it with a glass. (that to eliminate as much as possible stuff in the air showing up in the dry spot).  After drying you can readily see the difference in residue.

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#48 Pleasedwith3putts

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:45 AM

Always good to mix a little extra epoxy. That way you have a reference point as you can easily check whether the extra has cured properly. A strip off an old plastic bottle is great for mixing epoxy.

Whilst you need to exceed the setting temperature, I personally wouldn't place it too near a fire. Applying a little heat is actually a good way of reversing epoxy that is starting to cure rather than hardening it off.

For the strongest bonds, always apply epoxy to both surfaces and twist as you push them together. You can apply inside the tip with a piece of wire or better still a small flat blade screwdriver

Make sure you leave the club to cure head down on putters in particular to avoid the epoxy running up the shaft away from the post.

I'd also never try to put a grip on before I know it has 100% cured.

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#49 cristphoto

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:36 AM

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Glad to read this. Iím no pro club builder just a hobbyist but in over 20 years of tinkering with clubs Iíve never had a failure (maybe lucky). After applying acetone I always give a quick scrub to shaft and hosel with medium sandpaper to remove any residue. Then blow out any residual grit. Apply epoxy, let sit to cure, and then install grip. I never use the quick epoxy. I use the 4 hour setup with 24 hour cure time for everything. I also buy in the smallest amount so I start with fresh epoxy. I always wait the full 24 hours too. No sense rushing something I expect to be permanent. Works for me.

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#50 delmer

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:40 AM

View Postcristphoto, on 09 January 2019 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postdenkea, on 08 January 2019 - 09:37 AM, said:

Acetone will leave a residue.  Alcohol not so much.  

How much acetone residue will have an effect on epoxy cure is questionable.

Glad to read this. I'm no pro club builder just a hobbyist but in over 20 years of tinkering with clubs I've never had a failure (maybe lucky). After applying acetone I always give a quick scrub to shaft and hosel with medium sandpaper to remove any residue. Then blow out any residual grit. Apply epoxy, let sit to cure, and then install grip. I never use the quick epoxy. I use the 4 hour setup with 24 hour cure time for everything. I also buy in the smallest amount so I start with fresh epoxy. I always wait the full 24 hours too. No sense rushing something I expect to be permanent. Works for me.

The best thing you can use is CRC Electrical components cleaner for inside the hosel and wipe down the tip of the shaft with acetone.  Clean the hosel bore with either a wire brush or mandrel, spray CRC inside of the hosel with the clubbed inverted for 2 seconds, prep the tip of the shaft, and then wipe the shaft tip with acetone.  I usually prep the entire set first just to give it some time to make 100% sure all the cleaners evaporated and then glue everything.

The CRC spray is great.  It flushes the hosel and degreases it so you get a great bond.  It's alcohol based and doesn't leave any residue.


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#51 Socrates

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:49 AM

View PostPleasedwith3putts, on 09 January 2019 - 08:45 AM, said:

Applying a little heat is actually a good way of reversing epoxy that is starting to cure rather than hardening it off.
This does make the epoxy less viscous for a short time, but rather than slow the cure process, it actually speeds up the curing process.  This also may not be as good a thing as you think as you might think you have done a good epoxy job but, inside the hosel, all the epoxy just pooled at the bottom of the hosel.
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#52 halliedog

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:22 PM

All is good now.  I can forcefully twist the head against the shaft and no movement!

I'm going to try the next club I do with the Quick-Set, and see what happens.  If that experiment fails I'll know the epoxy is just kaput.  If it works, I'll know it was solvent leaking in, lack of coverage from tipping the shaft with a tubing cutter causing too much epoxy being scraped off, cold temps, or a combination off any/all of those.

I really appreciate all the help and suggestions I got from you guys - that's why I love this place!  I eventually got a satisfactory result, not exactly why, but I tried everything you guys mentioned!

**edit**  And I learned about 3 new things contrary to what I've read/been told before!

Edited by halliedog, 10 January 2019 - 08:23 PM.

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#53 Mikeski

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:29 AM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 06 January 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

Ah.  You understood what I was getting at.  A Plumbing cutter will compress that tip and make it way tighter than it should be. Pushes all the epoxy off the stem as you try to insert it.

You could have countered that by using a belt sander and  taking off about an 1/8 of inch of the compressed area.

If you dont have a belt sander you could have wrapped and taped 80 grit around a small drill bit and sanded the heck out of the inside of the shaft to widen it up a bit.

Hopefully the new  epoxy will work but if not, adjust that tip.

A 6 in1 swagging tool will help open the end. Insert the tool in the end of the shaft and slightly tap the swaging tool and it will help flare open the shaft end after cutting it with a pipe cutter.

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