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Grip Solvent Preventing Epoxy From Fully Curing?


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#1 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:02 PM

Had a re-shaft fail and am trying to pinpoint the cause.  Hoping for insight from the club building gurus.

Details: was trying to epoxy a C Taper parallel tip shaft onto an Odyssey O Works 7S.  This was a shaft over post type install.  After removing the original shaft I cleaned and sanded the post and cleaned with an acetone wipe-down.  Next I tip trimmed the C Taper to desired playing length and took some rolled up sandpaper and "prepped" the inside on the shaft tip and did my best to clean with a rolled up paper towel soaked in acetone.

I have both "quick set" and "max strength" epoxy, and decided the "quick set" would be good enough for a putter, so mixed that up and let sit about 8-10 minutes to gel.  I then applied a liberal amount of it to the post (my mixing stick was too large to fit inside of shaft tip).  I then pushed shaft down over post, twisting slightly to ensure full coating around inside of shaft, cleaned up excess epoxy and set next to my fireplace for 2 hours to set.

After 2 hours it seemed perfectly secure, so I next went to apply the grip as normal, except this was my first time using a Super Stroke Counterbalance grip.  Since the Counterbalance goes down into the butt end of shaft I didn't apply the grip tape over the end as normal, so some solvent probably went down inside of shaft.  I didn't think of this as a big deal since epoxy had already set and it was what I though a minimal amount that might leak down inside there while pushing the grip on.  After grip had a chance to set up for an hour or so I took the putter to the practice green and putted with it for a few hours with no issues.

Fast forward, when I finished putting I threw the putter in the backseat and left it there overnight.  We had below freezing temps overnight.  I played the next morning, so I grabbed the putter out the backseat and put it in the bag.  When we got to the first green I pulled the putter and when I went to line up my first putt noticed the grip seemed "off".  Upon further inspection I found that the epoxy bond had broken loose and the head was freely spinning around the shaft.

What say you experts?  I think prep job was good.  Epoxy is less than 6 months old and stored at room temp, and I've used it previously so know it's not a "bad batch".  If it was a bad "mix", why was the head fine after 2 hours but then failed overnight?  When I got home and pulled the shaft off the post I noticed an oily feeling residue on the post, which I believe to be the grip solvent that got down the inside of the shaft.  This leads me to believe that either the solvent (Bramptons) caused some issue with the epoxy fully curing, or there was enough between the shaft/post that when it was left in the car in freezing temps it somehow froze and broke the epoxy bond between the post and shaft, or a combination of both?

**edit**  Also, I did check the leftover epoxy on my mixing board and it seems to have cured perfectly.

Edited by halliedog, 06 January 2019 - 01:04 PM.

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#2 mjguzik

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:16 PM

I won’t consider myself an expert by any stretch  of the imagination. It does concern me you letting the epoxy gel prior to application. My understanding is it’s beginning to set which could be a problem.  Always try to use my quickset before it starts getting thick or gelling.
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#3 SixSixGolf

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:32 PM

Am I reading correctly? You're sanding the INSIDE of the shaft? That's not what you're supposed to do.

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#4 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:35 PM

Hmmm, this is the way I've always used it and never had any issues prior, but not saying it's correct.  I'm still thinking the solvent getting down the shaft and the cold temp had to have something to do with it.  If the wait time I used before applying the epoxy was culprit I don't think it would've been fine for the 2 hours I putted with it the prior evening.
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#5 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:37 PM

View PostSixSixGolf, on 06 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

Am I reading correctly? You're sanding the INSIDE of the shaft? That's not what you're supposed to do.

What am I supposed to do when the shaft fits over the post?  I sanded and cleaned both the post and inside of shaft where epoxy was set.  Maybe I wasn't clear in first post that this is a putter with a slant neck with .370 post that the shaft fits over?

Edited by halliedog, 06 January 2019 - 01:37 PM.

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#6 SixSixGolf

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:38 PM

Edit:

Ah ok. Yeah you seemed to be exposing the bond to a lot of acetone/grip solution. I wouldn't do that.

Edited by SixSixGolf, 06 January 2019 - 01:39 PM.


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#7 Socrates

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:46 PM

MJGUZILK is absolutely right.  By letting the epoxy gel and then applying, you are essentially destroying the epoxy.  Once epoxy has started to gel, you should stop using it.  Likely by the time you got it on the shaft and post, it was pretty thick and you wouldn't get good coverage as well as disturbing the molecular chains that are responsible for the epoxies strength.  Up until this point you have gotten lucky that nothing else has come apart and in fact I would be suspect of anything you've put together using this strategy.

Adding the solvent was likely just enough to push it past the tipping point as it leaked into the epoxy voids the almost assuredly were there because of the poor contact.
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#8 Socrates

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 01:48 PM

View PostSixSixGolf, on 06 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

Am I reading correctly? You're sanding the INSIDE of the shaft? That's not what you're supposed to do.
Clearly, you don't understand what is going on here.

"parallel tip shaft onto an Odyssey O Works 7S.  This was a shaft over post type install."
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#9 SixSixGolf

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 02:05 PM

View PostSocrates, on 06 January 2019 - 01:48 PM, said:

View PostSixSixGolf, on 06 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

Am I reading correctly? You're sanding the INSIDE of the shaft? That's not what you're supposed to do.
Clearly, you don't understand what is going on here.

"parallel tip shaft onto an Odyssey O Works 7S.  This was a shaft over post type install."

Missed that, but thanks.

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#10 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 02:07 PM

View PostSocrates, on 06 January 2019 - 01:46 PM, said:

MJGUZILK is absolutely right.  By letting the epoxy gel and then applying, you are essentially destroying the epoxy.  Once epoxy has started to gel, you should stop using it.  Likely by the time you got it on the shaft and post, it was pretty thick and you wouldn't get good coverage as well as disturbing the molecular chains that are responsible for the epoxies strength.  Up until this point you have gotten lucky that nothing else has come apart and in fact I would be suspect of anything you've put together using this strategy.

Adding the solvent was likely just enough to push it past the tipping point as it leaked into the epoxy voids the almost assuredly were there because of the poor contact.

That makes sense.  I just re-epoxied about an hour ago, using the same method (letting it "gel" for 5-6 minutes) and am about to go back to the workshop and check progress.  This time since the grip was already in place there will be no solvent involved.  I thought I had read somewhere that after mixing epoxy you were supposed to give it some time to begin setting up, or "activating", but perhaps I misunderstood.  Good to know going forward.  Also, I don't normally use the quick set stuff for anything other than putter and an occasional wedge.

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#11 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 02:51 PM

Well that was an even bigger fail than the first time!  After about 75 minutes the quick set hadn't even really begun to set.  I pulled, and cleaned everything up, and started again, this time with the longer curing max strength epoxy I have.  I'll let cure overnight and see how that goes.  I have it sitting next to a heat source to hopefully help things along.

One thing I'm noticing, like Socrates pointed out I didn't have great coverage on this last attempt.  The shaft fits over the post very tightly and I'm guessing rubs off a lot of the epoxy causing it to squeeze up the shaft or out of the open end.  There's quit a bit coming out the joint where the end of the shaft slides down over the post so not sure how much is remaining in contact with the areas I'm trying to bond.  The post does have a flat side on it, I'm guessing that's to allow enough epoxy to remain to form a good enough bond?  I mean it is only a putter, so shouldn't need the strength of an iron or wood that will be swung at full speed.
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#12 Socrates

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:24 PM

Not sure where you got the "time to setup or activate" but once you mix epoxy, you need to apply it immediately.  With the quickset stuff, you've got enough time to mix it properly and about 3-5 minutes of "pot life" (that is the correct term) to work with it.  For most people that is 1-3 clubs and then you're done with it.  Once you've epoxied the surfaces together, you should NOT disturb them until they have cured to "handling strength."  

Most epoxy instructions will tell you what the pot life, the handling strength and the full cure times are.  24hr epoxy is generally 30-45 minutes pot life, 4 hrs handling strength and 24 hrs to full cure.  Quick Set epoxy is usually 3 min, 15 minutes and 1 hr+ to full cure.

Epoxy doesn't need to be more than a few thousands of an inch thick to give you a strong bond as long as the surfaces are well mated.  The one good property of epoxy is that it will fill gaps and still maintain a very good strength.  It also does not do well if you apply clamping pressure, so you almost never see that advocated with its use.

If a fit is too tight, you also may not get enough coverage and it also can result in poor strength or none at all.  So make sure you have a enough room between the two surfaces to allow for the epoxy to remain.

And with any bonding, it's all in the prep.  Clean surfaces and a proper mix are vital to success.
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#13 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:45 PM

View PostSocrates, on 06 January 2019 - 03:24 PM, said:

Not sure where you got the "time to setup or activate" but once you mix epoxy, you need to apply it immediately.  With the quickset stuff, you've got enough time to mix it properly and about 3-5 minutes of "pot life" (that is the correct term) to work with it.  For most people that is 1-3 clubs and then you're done with it.  Once you've epoxied the surfaces together, you should NOT disturb them until they have cured to "handling strength."  

Most epoxy instructions will tell you what the pot life, the handling strength and the full cure times are.  24hr epoxy is generally 30-45 minutes pot life, 4 hrs handling strength and 24 hrs to full cure.  Quick Set epoxy is usually 3 min, 15 minutes and 1 hr+ to full cure.

Epoxy doesn't need to be more than a few thousands of an inch thick to give you a strong bond as long as the surfaces are well mated.  The one good property of epoxy is that it will fill gaps and still maintain a very good strength.  It also does not do well if you apply clamping pressure, so you almost never see that advocated with its use.

If a fit is too tight, you also may not get enough coverage and it also can result in poor strength or none at all.  So make sure you have a enough room between the two surfaces to allow for the epoxy to remain.

And with any bonding, it's all in the prep.  Clean surfaces and a proper mix are vital to success.

I'm beginning to be concerned about the tightness of the shaft over the post honestly.  Not sure what to do if this attempt ends poorly.  I guess I could try taking the post to my belt sander and attempt to take the diameter down a little so it's not such a tight squeeze going into the shaft?  Like I mentioned it does have a flat spot down one side of the post, so I suppose I could add another flat spot on the opposing side to create some extra surface area for the epoxy to "settle in".

I think if this attempt doesn't get the job done I may try reinstalling the original shaft and see if it bonds properly.  If that works then I could remove the grip, add an extension and go from there.  Likely won't be playing for a while so have some time to figure this out!
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#14 zip7111

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 03:48 PM

Are you 100% sure you are mixing the epoxy with correct about of A+B?  Also realize you are trying to use an iron shaft for an over the hosel putter.  Most flare tip shafts are bigger than .370 to accommodate the post.  You may need to grind down the post a bit to allow for more epoxy coverage.

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#15 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 04:16 PM

View Postzip7111, on 06 January 2019 - 03:48 PM, said:

Are you 100% sure you are mixing the epoxy with correct about of A+B?  Also realize you are trying to use an iron shaft for an over the hosel putter.  Most flare tip shafts are bigger than .370 to accommodate the post.  You may need to grind down the post a bit to allow for more epoxy coverage.

I'm 99% sure the epoxy mix is correct.  I've built numerous sets of irons and quite a few drivers, so not my "first rodeo" :) !  I'm not an expert or professional by any means, but can only remember having one issue with a head coming loose in the past and that was from neglecting to prep the outside of a Ping Tisi Tec plastic adapter before inserting into the head.

I don't believe this head/hosel post require a flare tip shaft from doing some research, but the fit is quite tight. If things aren't better on this attempt I'll probably check the fit vs. the original shaft, and possibly try sanding down another flat side on the post so less epoxy will squeeze out.  Thanks for the insight!

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#16 Bad9

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 05:50 PM

View Posthalliedog, on 06 January 2019 - 02:07 PM, said:

  I thought I had read somewhere that after mixing epoxy you were supposed to give it some time to begin setting up, or "activating", but perhaps I misunderstood.

In 20+yrs of club making and using perhaps a dozen different epoxies I have never heard or read that. Ever. With the quick set you are essentially allowing it to cure before you assemble the parts.
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#17 A.Princey

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 06:32 PM

Didn't read the entirety of everything here, but apply the epoxy to the inside of the shaft, liberally, NOT just the post. It's likely the shaft is scraping the majority of the epoxy off the post. Also, make sure the inside of the shaft is open near the tip(not plugged), so no air gets trapped. Before applying the epoxy, wipe the post and inside the shaft well with acetone to obtain a clean adhesion.  This should work 99% of the time unless surface oils/dirt are present or the surface is ill-prepped . If the post is perfectly cylindrical and the fit is tighter than hell, grind the end down a little to make it more cone-like(just a little).

Also, there should be no waiting period whatsoever in applying your epoxy, the sooner the better, and leave the joint still once mated together until fully cured.

Edited by A.Princey, 06 January 2019 - 07:02 PM.

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#18 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 06:40 PM

View PostBad9, on 06 January 2019 - 05:50 PM, said:

View Posthalliedog, on 06 January 2019 - 02:07 PM, said:

  I thought I had read somewhere that after mixing epoxy you were supposed to give it some time to begin setting up, or "activating", but perhaps I misunderstood.

In 20+yrs of club making and using perhaps a dozen different epoxies I have never heard or read that. Ever. With the quick set you are essentially allowing it to cure before you assemble the parts.

Not sure this is the only place I've heard it, but here is a link, check post # 11:
http://www.golfwrx.c...poxy-cure-time/

Now you can't say you never heard or read that - Never! :)

If it is cured before I assembled the parts, why did it hold up well for my 2 hour practice session (being taken in/out of headcover, gently tossed to ground on occasion when I wanted to pick up a wedge and chip several balls, etc...)  and then fail somewhere between the car and first green the next day is what I was really trying to figure out?  I'm still thinking the solvent being introduced before a full cure and the freezing temps had a the largest impact.  And since there likely wasn't enough surface coverage to stand up to this was probably not helping.

And I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating what I've always done and has worked out fine until now.  (I've been building clubs for over 30 years myself, although never professionally, but only had one issue that I can recall and that was some prepping I neglected to do.  Again, I hardly ever use this particular epoxy, so experience is limited).  Since Socrates mentioned pot life of 24 hour epoxy is much longer, I have to believe I've been luck up to this point by letting it "gel" for 6-10 minutes.  Won't be doing that any more!
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#19 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 06:46 PM

View PostA.Princey, on 06 January 2019 - 06:32 PM, said:

Didn't read the entirety of everything here, but apply the epoxy to the inside of the shaft, liberally, NOT just the post. It's likely the shaft is scraping the majority of the epoxy off the post. Also, make sure the inside of the shaft is open near the tip(not plugged), so no air gets trapped. Before applying the epoxy, wipe the post and inside the shaft well with acetone to obtain a clean adhesion.  This should work 99% of the time unless surface oils/dirt are present or the surface is ill-prepped . If the post is perfectly cylindrical and the fit is tighter than hell, grind the end down a little to make it more cone-like(just a little).

Thanks for the reply Princey.  I've redone with 24hr epoxy, and this time did my best to get some down into the inside of shaft.  Shaft tip is definitely not plugged - was a brand new shaft on initial install and prepped/cleaned with acetone both subsequent attempts.  If this attempt doesn't work I'll be grinding/sanding another flat spot down the post to allow better fit and a bigger surface area for epoxy to adhere to.
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#20 ignitewvu

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:05 PM

What was the temperature in the room???

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#21 Jagpilotohio

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    45+ inch drivers are evil.

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:07 PM

I’m curious. How did you tip trim the shaft?

If you used a plumbing tube cutter that is part of your issue.
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#22 A.Princey

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:08 PM

Below 50F is getting out of the recommended zone, so anything around "freezing" 32F is a no-no.
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#23 mjguzik

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:17 PM

Again, as also stated by others, quick set epoxy is just that, fast setting.  I’ve used it only on small jobs.  From memory, epoxy is an exothermic reaction and expands when curing.  If you only used 24 hour epoxy before, the gel time is much longer and attributes your past successes.  Surface to surface contact with a properly abraded and clean surface is all that is needed.  Acetone as a cleaner works great.  Too much play in a connection and use glass beads or improvise with fine clean sand with the epoxy mix.  Good luck.
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#24 halliedog

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:31 PM

Update - after using the longer cure epoxy and letting sit in front of the fireplace for about 5 hours it appears I have reached safe handling condition.  I can now pick it without the head twisting about the shaft :).  I won't get a chance to play all week so it will have at least another 6 days to fully cure before it gets put back in the bag.

To answer a few of the earlier comments/questions:

Temperature in the room was around 68*F.  All 3 tries were put on the hearth of my gas fireplace to set up, so temp slightly higher.  The 32*F was in my car overnight after I had thought the epoxy was already well set.

Jag - I did in fact use a tubing cutter, and am sure that compressed the shaft a bit which led to the super tight fit and so much excess epoxy squeezing out and the poor coverage mentioned by Socrates.  I've always cut steel shafts in this manner, but have never done an over the post install of a freshly trimmed shaft before so I guess I never noticed this compression since the entire shaft was going into an iron hosel.

I'm still thinking the solvent on initial attempt played a major role in the failure, just not sure why it took so long to fail, but it appears to be resolved now, so moving forward.  Thanks to everyone for your comments/suggestions!  Learned several new tidbits during this experience I can use moving forward.
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#25 Jagpilotohio

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    45+ inch drivers are evil.

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:41 PM

Ah.  You understood what I was getting at.  A Plumbing cutter will compress that tip and make it way tighter than it should be. Pushes all the epoxy off the stem as you try to insert it.

You could have countered that by using a belt sander and  taking off about an 1/8 of inch of the compressed area.

If you dont have a belt sander you could have wrapped and taped 80 grit around a small drill bit and sanded the heck out of the inside of the shaft to widen it up a bit.

Hopefully the new  epoxy will work but if not, adjust that tip.

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#26 RogerinNewZealand

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:19 AM

Lots of acetone
2 hours to dry
Freeezing overnight.
Winter cold mean didnt cure plus acetone to me means no bonding took place either on shaft base to putter head.
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#27 extrastiff

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:17 AM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 06 January 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

Ah.  You understood what I was getting at.  A Plumbing cutter will compress that tip and make it way tighter than it should be. Pushes all the epoxy off the stem as you try to insert it.

You could have countered that by using a belt sander and  taking off about an 1/8 of inch of the compressed area.

If you dont have a belt sander you could have wrapped and taped 80 grit around a small drill bit and sanded the heck out of the inside of the shaft to widen it up a bit.

Hopefully the new  epoxy will work but if not, adjust that tip.

This.

Just rolling up sandpaper and hand twisting would not prep super efficiently imo, hard to get the pressure necessary to remove all the chrome. My bet is reprepping it each time op failed helped fully get the chrome, and now it's setting properly.

Like jag suggesting, Sandpaper on a drill is how I prep these types builds. Works well.
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#28 Bad9

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:24 AM

View Postextrastiff, on 07 January 2019 - 06:17 AM, said:

View PostJagpilotohio, on 06 January 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

Ah.  You understood what I was getting at.  A Plumbing cutter will compress that tip and make it way tighter than it should be. Pushes all the epoxy off the stem as you try to insert it.

You could have countered that by using a belt sander and  taking off about an 1/8 of inch of the compressed area.

If you dont have a belt sander you could have wrapped and taped 80 grit around a small drill bit and sanded the heck out of the inside of the shaft to widen it up a bit.

Hopefully the new  epoxy will work but if not, adjust that tip.

This.

Just rolling up sandpaper and hand twisting would not prep super efficiently imo, hard to get the pressure necessary to remove all the chrome. My bet is reprepping it each time op failed helped fully get the chrome, and now it's setting properly.

Like jag suggesting, Sandpaper on a drill is how I prep these types builds. Works well.

He was cleaning the inside of the shaft for a shaft over hosel post install on a putter. I have not seen shafts with the interior chromed.
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#29 extrastiff

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:22 AM

View PostBad9, on 07 January 2019 - 07:24 AM, said:

View Postextrastiff, on 07 January 2019 - 06:17 AM, said:

View PostJagpilotohio, on 06 January 2019 - 08:41 PM, said:

Ah.  You understood what I was getting at.  A Plumbing cutter will compress that tip and make it way tighter than it should be. Pushes all the epoxy off the stem as you try to insert it.

You could have countered that by using a belt sander and  taking off about an 1/8 of inch of the compressed area.

If you dont have a belt sander you could have wrapped and taped 80 grit around a small drill bit and sanded the heck out of the inside of the shaft to widen it up a bit.

Hopefully the new  epoxy will work but if not, adjust that tip.

This.

Just rolling up sandpaper and hand twisting would not prep super efficiently imo, hard to get the pressure necessary to remove all the chrome. My bet is reprepping it each time op failed helped fully get the chrome, and now it's setting properly.

Like jag suggesting, Sandpaper on a drill is how I prep these types builds. Works well.

He was cleaning the inside of the shaft for a shaft over hosel post install on a putter. I have not seen shafts with the interior chromed.
Fair enough, I'm spreading misinformation about the chrome. Apologies. My local repair guy told me to do this on similar putter builds however, guess the ideal is its not properly prepped on the inside. Out of my depth obviously so I'll leave it at that
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#30 wkuo3

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:58 AM

Guys had covered almost every possibilities for the scenario.
I just like to remind you that if not using the  100% pure acetone, some of the nail polish acetone has additives in it for the obvious reason , to prevent damaging the nail.  The additives do not evaporate.    Always make sure all surface are clean and free of moisture before applying epoxy.

In your case, it's the failure of the epoxy caused the issue.  It will also take much longer time to cure the epoxy in lower temperature.
Always , always keep the left over epoxy to inspect the curing process.  Keep in mind the exposed left over epoxy will cure faster than the epoxy inside the cover of the hosel.

Oh, it's a good practice, never put on the grip before the epoxy is fully cured.  Either using grip solvent or air to install the grips.  And didn't you overlap the grip tape to cover the opening of the end of the shaft when using solvent ?  That practice was done to prevent solvent dripping down the inside of the shaft.

Edited by wkuo3, 07 January 2019 - 12:15 PM.


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