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USGA and Lucy Li (MERGED)


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#31 ctmason_98

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:33 AM

View Postcxx, on 06 January 2019 - 08:48 AM, said:

Amateur athletics is worth preserving in all sports. If you want to make money at a sport, turn pro.  Lots of people do.   I for one don't want to relegate college athletics to a farm league.

There are many sports where the lower levels of play are dominated by professionals, hockey and baseball come to mind.  These teams are mostly of local interest to places without big league teams.  I'd hate to see college athletics fall into irrelevancy where association with the college is tenuous at best and is more like a brand.

1) We compensate you for representing this University by paying your significant tuition, food, housing, some clothing, athletic equipment and travel costs for competitions as well as a small stipend.

2) We compensate you as a top golfer by paying your travel costs to come film a commercial and represent our product.

Individual number one is an amateur who is preserving the integrity of athletics and ensuring only a true amateur who is not doing this for compensation.

Individual number two is a professional who has no business being playing agai st other amateurs.

Does anyone else see the absurdity in this?


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#32 tiger1873

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:32 AM

View Postctmason_98, on 07 January 2019 - 01:33 AM, said:

View Postcxx, on 06 January 2019 - 08:48 AM, said:

Amateur athletics is worth preserving in all sports. If you want to make money at a sport, turn pro.  Lots of people do.   I for one don't want to relegate college athletics to a farm league.

There are many sports where the lower levels of play are dominated by professionals, hockey and baseball come to mind.  These teams are mostly of local interest to places without big league teams.  I'd hate to see college athletics fall into irrelevancy where association with the college is tenuous at best and is more like a brand.

1) We compensate you for representing this University by paying your significant tuition, food, housing, some clothing, athletic equipment and travel costs for competitions as well as a small stipend.

2) We compensate you as a top golfer by paying your travel costs to come film a commercial and represent our product.

Individual number one is an amateur who is preserving the integrity of athletics and ensuring only a true amateur who is not doing this for compensation.

Individual number two is a professional who has no business being playing agai st other amateurs.

Does anyone else see the absurdity in this?

Paying an amateurs college tuition is not the same and completely different form of compensation.

Colleges have their own tournaments you have to play and you represent them.  The average amateur does not play in those events. They pretty much only get the right to attend class and the school pays for cost to compete.

Any amateur can have a sponsor. Apple could have easily paid for flights, tournaments and even living expenses. They just could not ask for anything in return.

Having a commercial and featuring her in it is not the same and clearly an issue for amateur status.  Almost certain that she got paid somehow for it from the sound of it solely because of her ability in golf.

Edited by tiger1873, 07 January 2019 - 07:57 AM.


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#33 JDee1935

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 12:14 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 05 January 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

https://www.golfchan...ags=golf1305000

"Li, a 16-year-old amateur golfer who is ranked ninth in the world, was one of the subjects for a new Apple Watch ad campaign, which includes a video of Li hitting golf shots in a number of settings wearing the company's watch. Apple released the ad last week, and the USGA is now looking into the matter and gathering more information that could determine if Li violated any terms of her amateur status."

I detest the USGA.

Do not blame the USGA here. Blame Li's parents and herself.

Every elite amateur is aware of the rules. There is no way that Li gets into this commercial without an agent securing it for her, massive contract, and financial stipulations.

Amateurs know, that any company  consentually using their "likeness" for profit, will result in loss of amateur status.

The dumb thing here, is that Li doesn't have any other fall backs than seeking exemptions, qualifiers, or playing in Asia for a year. Is not easy getting exemptions.

It's not the USGA's fault that she did this. She wasn't on a commercial selling lemonade. Apple is enormous. She is now a professional..period.

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#34 BrianMcG

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 12:18 PM

View PostGoGoErky, on 06 January 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

Going to be interesting to see if they can prove she profited/benefited from this. When a popular amateur one needs to be aware of the rules when doing things with companies

It doesn’t matter if she did or not. If Apple did, then she loses her status.

I remember a mid am winner almost losing his status because his company documented his achievements in a recruiting brochure. He got a letter from the USGA and the company had to change their brochures.
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#35 farmer

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:14 PM

It's a rule and she broke the rule.  Revoking her amateur status over this commercial would be a huge overreaction by the USGA, but there will be some penalty.  As an aside, college sports are a farm system for professional sports.  Basketball, football, baseball, all these really good kids have been scouted for years, college provides a venue where they prove their credentials.


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#36 mocokid

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:57 PM

shackelford made some good points, USGA afraid to criticize as it will not grow the game.  2) amateur golf is almost a joke, minor league training for the Tour, nothing else.  Here is the article.

https://www.geoffsha...-amateur-status

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#37 BertGA

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:54 PM

So are we arguing to eliminate amateur status altogether?

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#38 ctmason_98

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:58 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 07 January 2019 - 06:32 AM, said:

Paying an amateurs college tuition is not the same and completely different form of compensation.

Colleges have their own tournaments you have to play and you represent them.  The average amateur does not play in those events. They pretty much only get the right to attend class and the school pays for cost to compete.

Any amateur can have a sponsor. <b>Apple could have easily paid for flights, tournaments and even living expenses. They just could not ask for anything in return.</b>

Having a commercial and featuring her in it is not the same and clearly an issue for amateur status.  Almost certain that she got paid somehow for it from the sound of it solely because of her ability in golf.

I would love to hear more about your statement there. Is there an example of that?

For individual events, “An amateur golfer must not receive expenses, directly or indirectly, from a professional gent or any other similar source as may be determined by the Governing Body.”

When we look to the hole of rule 4-2 it doesn’t seem so clear cut that Apple could do what you’re saying.

And I understand the distinction you’re making with college golfers and other amateurs. I don’t agree.

I simply think this imaginary line in the definition of “compensation” is nonsense. If you receive compensation or any financial gain “directly or indirectly” you’re not an amateur.

Given the realities of college athletics today I think it’s dishonest to say that they’re receiving no compensation.

And your statement that “they pretty much only get the right to attend class...” is simply incorrect. There are other forms of compensation like I mentioned.

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#39 ctmason_98

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:01 PM

View PostJDee1935, on 07 January 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

Amateurs know, that any company  consentually using their "likeness" for profit, will result in loss of amateur status.

Unless of course that company is the NCAA.

Please now lecture me on how the NCAA isn’t a company and a non-profit so is not profiting off anything.

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#40 Krt22

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 05:44 PM

View PostBrianMcG, on 06 January 2019 - 09:04 AM, said:

Now she is free to make a YouTube channel of her taking a bunch of lessons from different pros.


10 internet kudos to you, fine sir.


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#41 yellowlover519

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:06 PM

How is this different than receiving a golf manufacturer sponsorship at a young age?  Isn’t playing that particular OEM a form of advertising with all the pictures taken of elite juniors on social media or magazines?

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#42 geno4952

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:14 PM

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

You're making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you're coming from.

How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?

I could be wrong but didn't both the USGA and CBS use her likeness to promote the Drive, Pitch and Putt being held at Augusta National??  Profit to be made there as far as I can see... if she can't use her likeness then they shouldn't be able to either. Almost as bad as Tiger having to give Arnold Palmer back $25 for a dinner he bought for him.... ludicrous......
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#43 geno4952

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:18 PM

View PostJDee1935, on 07 January 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 05 January 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

https://www.golfchan...ags=golf1305000

"Li, a 16-year-old amateur golfer who is ranked ninth in the world, was one of the subjects for a new Apple Watch ad campaign, which includes a video of Li hitting golf shots in a number of settings wearing the company's watch. Apple released the ad last week, and the USGA is now looking into the matter and gathering more information that could determine if Li violated any terms of her amateur status."

I detest the USGA.

Do not blame the USGA here. Blame Li's parents and herself.

Every elite amateur is aware of the rules. There is no way that Li gets into this commercial without an agent securing it for her, massive contract, and financial stipulations.

Amateurs know, that any company  consentually using their "likeness" for profit, will result in loss of amateur status.

The dumb thing here, is that Li doesn't have any other fall backs than seeking exemptions, qualifiers, or playing in Asia for a year. Is not easy getting exemptions.

It's not the USGA's fault that she did this. She wasn't on a commercial selling lemonade. Apple is enormous. She is now a professional..period.

She isn't at fault here... the USGA and CBS both used her likeness to promote DP&P at Augusta National... sounds a bit hypocritical to me.....
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#44 geno4952

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:23 PM

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 11:16 PM, said:

View Posttheboypinoy, on 05 January 2019 - 11:11 PM, said:

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 11:08 PM, said:

You're making the NCAA athlete should be paid argument. OK. I see where you're coming from.

How/when does the USGA profit from Lucy Li?

They used her image and story a lot when she qualified for the US Open.

Leads to more views, which leads to more leverage for the USGA to negotiate their TV deals for example.

ok but when you sign up for the tournament, you agree to certain media submissions. She, her parents or guardian, more accurately, literally signed up for it. They aren't "using" her, they are making good on the agreement she willing entered.

so if she "signs up" to play golf it is ok to use her.... and the difference between that and what she did is what??? They still used her for their gain as did Apple..
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#45 youraway2

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 08:49 PM

https://www.golfchan...-can-worms-usga

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#46 youraway2

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:08 PM

View PostHoly Moses, on 05 January 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

https://www.golfchan...ags=golf1305000

"Li, a 16-year-old amateur golfer who is ranked ninth in the world, was one of the subjects for a new Apple Watch ad campaign, which includes a video of Li hitting golf shots in a number of settings wearing the company's watch. Apple released the ad last week, and the USGA is now looking into the matter and gathering more information that could determine if Li violated any terms of her amateur status."

I detest the USGA.
Why attack the USGA?  They weren't in the commercial.  Hope for the correct outcome.
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#47 youraway2

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:25 PM

View PostJDee1935, on 07 January 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 05 January 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

https://www.golfchan...ags=golf1305000

"Li, a 16-year-old amateur golfer who is ranked ninth in the world, was one of the subjects for a new Apple Watch ad campaign, which includes a video of Li hitting golf shots in a number of settings wearing the company's watch. Apple released the ad last week, and the USGA is now looking into the matter and gathering more information that could determine if Li violated any terms of her amateur status."

I detest the USGA.

Do not blame the USGA here. Blame Li's parents and herself.

Every elite amateur is aware of the rules. There is no way that Li gets into this commercial without an agent securing it for her, massive contract, and financial stipulations.

Amateurs know, that any company  consentually using their "likeness" for profit, will result in loss of amateur status.

The dumb thing here, is that Li doesn't have any other fall backs than seeking exemptions, qualifiers, or playing in Asia for a year. Is not easy getting exemptions.

It's not the USGA's fault that she did this. She wasn't on a commercial selling lemonade. Apple is enormous. She is now a professional..period.

View PostJDee1935, on 07 January 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

View PostHoly Moses, on 05 January 2019 - 10:20 PM, said:

https://www.golfchan...ags=golf1305000

"Li, a 16-year-old amateur golfer who is ranked ninth in the world, was one of the subjects for a new Apple Watch ad campaign, which includes a video of Li hitting golf shots in a number of settings wearing the company's watch. Apple released the ad last week, and the USGA is now looking into the matter and gathering more information that could determine if Li violated any terms of her amateur status."

I detest the USGA.

Do not blame the USGA here. Blame Li's parents and herself.

Every elite amateur is aware of the rules. There is no way that Li gets into this commercial without an agent securing it for her, massive contract, and financial stipulations.

Amateurs know, that any company  consentually using their "likeness" for profit, will result in loss of amateur status.

The dumb thing here, is that Li doesn't have any other fall backs than seeking exemptions, qualifiers, or playing in Asia for a year. Is not easy getting exemptions.

It's not the USGA's fault that she did this. She wasn't on a commercial selling lemonade. Apple is enormous. She is now a professional..period.
May not be a professional, but certainly not a amateur for the next two-years.  Pass your PAT and take a cart attendant job and see what happens, been there.

Edited by youraway2, 08 January 2019 - 10:12 AM.

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#48 youraway2

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 09:27 PM

View PostGoGoErky, on 06 January 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

Going to be interesting to see if they can prove she profited/benefited from this. When a popular amateur one needs to be aware of the rules when doing things with companies
She doesn't have to benefit, Apple did.
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#49 Sixcat

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:57 PM

I'm a very "black and white" person and rarely (if ever) see gray area in life.  With that said, here's my opinion.  Everyone associated with the ad from the Li family to Apple knew it violated USGA rules. It was a calculated risk.

If Li is punished by the USGA, she can play the "innocent victim" which will likely land her more endorsements as she builds her "brand" and turns professional.  Having Apple and other endorsements as a part of her "brand" will also give her some leverage with the LPGA to allow her to seek status on Tour prior to turning 18.

If she is not punished by the USGA, she gamed the system to begin building a "brand" two years before turning professional.  Being the face of an Apple ad campaign will surely lead to dollars in the future whether she got paid by Apple or not.  Given she is the face of an ad campaign featuring a product for a multi-billion dollar company, she has set herself up for future endorsements when she does turn professional.  

Either way, the Li family benefits!

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#50 cxx

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 05:21 PM

View PostSixcat, on 08 January 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm a very "black and white" person and rarely (if ever) see gray area in life.  With that said, here's my opinion.  Everyone associated with the ad from the Li family to Apple knew it violated USGA rules. It was a calculated risk.

If Li is punished by the USGA, she can play the "innocent victim" which will likely land her more endorsements as she builds her "brand" and turns professional.  Having Apple and other endorsements as a part of her "brand" will also give her some leverage with the LPGA to allow her to seek status on Tour prior to turning 18.

If she is not punished by the USGA, she gamed the system to begin building a "brand" two years before turning professional.  Being the face of an Apple ad campaign will surely lead to dollars in the future whether she got paid by Apple or not.  Given she is the face of an ad campaign featuring a product for a multi-billion dollar company, she has set herself up for future endorsements when she does turn professional.  

Either way, the Li family benefits!

This makes the most sense in the "everybody is a brand" world that we live in. Fame and recognition are there own payment and very valuable.


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#51 ChipNRun

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 02:53 PM

I see several hot points on how things have tumbled out.

First, Apple built ad for its Close Your Rings series which allegedly promotes youth fitness. The golf ad shows Lucy with the Apple watch in sports and social settings, but doesn’t explicitly mention the Rings fitness program. I thought including this might have given Lucy a modicum of public-service cover.

Second, a related ad in the campaign features Olympic swimmer Haley Anderson. What action has the USOC taken, if any, on this matter? (I don’t know. A quick Google came up empty). If none, the USGA risks charges of being out-of-step with the rest of the amateur neighborhood.

Third, how much incremental personal benefit did Lucy get from the ad? Almost nil. Lucy qualified for the US Women’s Open at age 11, played in several international events in 2018, and at age 16 is ranked in top 10 of women golf amateurs. From a business promotions standpoint, I have to take a “whatever” attitude toward the Apple ad.

Then, USGA executive Mike Davis proclaims on gone-viral video how much Lucy has helped the game, and recalls how cute she was eating ice cream on TV at Augusta National after winning the 2014 Drive, Chip and Putt competition. So, it’s OK for Lucy to help the USGA grow the game, but it’s not OK for Lucy to promote youth fitness with a major commercial company. USGA will have fun arguing about this.

Then there’s the fact that the USGA has white males for 14 of 17 executive committee members. Let’s see, white males jumping down hard on a 16-year-old female Chinese American – that’s bad optics for a group trying to be more inclusive and grow the game.

USGA’s path out of the kill zone vectors on this: The rule states that amateurs receiving personal benefit may be stripped of amateur status. Short of ending Lucy’s amateur status and her childhood, the USGA could issue a warning and clarification, maybe suspend her from a couple of tournaments. Most of all, the USGA needs go into the public square and jump hard on Apple for child endangerment.

So, maybe we’re asking the wrong question. As ForeGals’ Beth Bethel asks, Is it Lucy vs. USGA, or Apple Inc. vs. amateur golf?
https://foregals.com...v-amateur-golf/

(Fix typos)

Edited by ChipNRun, 18 January 2019 - 04:27 PM.

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Wedge:  Calla MD3 48°/8.SS + 54°/12.WS +  
MD.PM 60°/10 / KBS Tour R-flex 110 gr. |   
Putter:   Slotline Inertial SL-583F / 34" w. SuperStroke 2.0 MidSlim grip
Bag:   Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag
Ball:    Calla SuperSoft
   * Either 7W or 3H left out, depending on course.
   ** Wedges: 46°and 48°are competing for bag space.

21

#52 BrianMcG

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 04:30 PM

Pro swimmers can compete in the olympics.
Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
Bobby: I play because I love it.
Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.

22

#53 LeoLeo99

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 05:23 PM

View PostBrianMcG, on 18 January 2019 - 04:30 PM, said:

Pro swimmers can compete in the olympics.

So can pro golfers.

23

#54 J13

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Posted 18 January 2019 - 05:49 PM

USGA just needs to go away and the R&A needs to be the one true governing body.
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