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Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in


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#181 Obee

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 01:18 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 January 2019 - 10:23 AM, said:

View Postnsxguy, on 08 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 January 2019 - 01:03 PM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 08 January 2019 - 12:14 PM, said:

View PostMr. Grumpy, on 08 January 2019 - 12:12 PM, said:

Ahhh,, the good ole USGA...
Very well reasoned and thought out, and completely clear.  How could anyone NOT change their mind based on this?

Or the time they declared singles couldn't post rounds.  Coincidentally eliminating most walkers from posting half their rounds.  Hmmm. $ is a big part of the USga agenda.  

To call singles dishonest for no reason  and allow putting with the pin in and free replacement of any ball you move " accidentally " just slaps people in the face if you're trying to use logic.  

The USga deserves every ounce they get good or bad.

So singles that couldn't post their rounds eliminated WALKERS from posting rounds ? LOL

What are the 3 LARGEST complaints about golf ?

Right. Cost, slow play (and the time it takes  in general) and SANDBAGGING.

So singles can't post their rounds bothers you why again ? LOL

A cornerstone of handicapping is "peer review". Of which, BTW, there is NONE when someone plays alone (not that there would be much if he was playing with strangers,,,,, or even with friends for that matter.

But that's a different story and one that hopefully will be addressed by the WW handicapping changes for NEXT year.,,,,,,,

Define "irony". Someone defending a single's ability to post scores for handicaps by the guy who is probably the most vociferous on the site about the sandbaggers at HIS club.

Talk about irony. :taunt:

Most baggers travel in packs.  It's the regular 4 somes that breed this.  Takes playing partners who don't say anything to get it done.  Singles are opposite if anything.  Do overs etc equal a vanity cap. Not a bagger.

Think about it. If you wanted to cheat as a single. Just enter fake scores .  No need to play.  Sandbaggers arent erased now that singles can't post.  So the point doesn't hold water.

You have that half-right:

Sandbaggers usually do have a regular "group" where sandbagging is just part of the deal. They're ALL sandbaggers.

However, one of the ways they sandbag is that they go and play "late afternoon" rounds alone (or sometimes with the wife) and miraculously always shoot well above their average score. Believe me, I was handicap chairman for a minute. It's rampant....

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#182 bladehunter

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 01:32 PM

probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ?  no.... so no real point in my opinion ...  i have 3 solo 9s this week that wold lower my handicap because it would kick off 2 terrible T scores i hanging from the mid summer... but cant post them .
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#183 Obee

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 01:43 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ?  no.... so no real point in my opinion ...  i have 3 solo 9s this week that wold lower my handicap because it would kick off 2 terrible T scores i hanging from the mid summer... but cant post them .

I would actually say that it will make it a bit harder on sandbaggers. If you take away one of their avenues for 'bagging, that's a good thing.

The reality, though, is that most clubs have no way of policing whether or not you are posting rounds you shouldn't, so it won't have much affect. And with the ability to post online, it's a losing battle to try to police sandbaggers.
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#184 bladehunter

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 01:49 PM

View PostObee, on 09 January 2019 - 01:43 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ?  no.... so no real point in my opinion ...  i have 3 solo 9s this week that wold lower my handicap because it would kick off 2 terrible T scores i hanging from the mid summer... but cant post them .

I would actually say that it will make it a bit harder on sandbaggers. If you take away one of their avenues for 'bagging, that's a good thing.

The reality, though, is that most clubs have no way of policing whether or not you are posting rounds you shouldn't, so it won't have much affect. And with the ability to post online, it's a losing battle to try to police sandbaggers.

Agree there. Allowing self posting anywhere is the root. issue.
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#185 nsxguy

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 07:24 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ?  no....

Seriously my brother, how could you possibly KNOW that ?!?!?!

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#186 soregongolfer

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 08:44 PM

Sandbaggers can make up a score and post it online.  Showing up to the course is optional.  Sandbagging is rampant at my club and the owners stated, "If you can't beat them, join them."  It's seriously a wink wink, nudge nudge situation.

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#187 daegyu

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:14 PM

I absolutely LOVE the sound of a ball clinking around in the cup after it's been holed. I absolutely HATE the sound of a ball clanking off a flagstick, make or miss. The visual doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would but I don't think I will ever get used to the sound. Like most things in life, the hole is better naked.

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#188 nsxguy

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:57 PM

View Postsoregongolfer, on 09 January 2019 - 08:44 PM, said:

Sandbaggers can make up a score and post it online.  Showing up to the course is optional.  Sandbagging is rampant at my club and the owners stated, "If you can't beat them, join them."  It's seriously a wink wink, nudge nudge situation.

Hopefully that will stop, or at least be slowed down a bit next Jan 1 with the beginning of the new World Handicapping System. ;)
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#189 bladehunter

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:16 PM

View Postnsxguy, on 09 January 2019 - 07:24 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 January 2019 - 01:32 PM, said:

probably true too... But still... has the rule effected sandbagging ?  no....

Seriously my brother, how could you possibly KNOW that ?!?!?!

Well. I get what youíre saying.

But hereís how I look at it.  I donít ď know ď anything except what I see myself.  I myself have met a few more this summer , and the same old ones are still doing it.  Canít see any decline.  

Thereís really no way to know .  Some clubs are good and people think sandbagging is rare.  A lot of clubs let it go on to keep membership majority happy , and the honest players think everyone is a bagger.  In each world both are true.


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#190 soregongolfer

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:02 AM

View Postnsxguy, on 09 January 2019 - 09:57 PM, said:

View Postsoregongolfer, on 09 January 2019 - 08:44 PM, said:

Sandbaggers can make up a score and post it online.  Showing up to the course is optional.  Sandbagging is rampant at my club and the owners stated, "If you can't beat them, join them."  It's seriously a wink wink, nudge nudge situation.

Hopefully that will stop, or at least be slowed down a bit next Jan 1 with the beginning of the new World Handicapping System. ;)

I'm frustrated with it and it has really shown up in my scores.  I've gone for a 3 to a 13. ;)


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#191 fairways4life

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 09:40 AM

View Postdaegyu, on 09 January 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

I absolutely LOVE the sound of a ball clinking around in the cup after it's been holed. I absolutely HATE the sound of a ball clanking off a flagstick, make or miss. The visual doesn't bother me as much as I thought it would but I don't think I will ever get used to the sound. Like most things in life, the hole is better naked.

Fox has been putting microphones in the cups during the US Open to capture the sound of the ball falling in and blasting it through the audio (although I secretly suspect that the sounds are artificial and triggered by the push of a button. But I'm a conspiracy theorist). It's very "video game" sounding on the broadcast and each one sounds suspiciously the same. So we'll see what it sounds like this year at Pebble when someone holes one with the flag in. The Fox producers will now need two buttons -- a flag in and a flag out -- to make their little sound effects lol.

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#192 mds5062

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:12 AM

I've been playing with the flag in for every casual round after work due to laziness and continue to plan on doing so now in my money/official rounds. The main thing I found was there putts that used to dip in and roll out no longer do so, they get wedged  and your putt is in. The occasional rocket putt from far away helps to, of course when it doesn't hit the pin and bounce out. The only time I found it distracting was when it was very windy and it was moving more than usual in my peripheral vision. Other than that, it is a big advantage in my opinion but I don't really see the time saver considering it takes a total of 10 seconds to pull it and put it back in.

Edited by mds5062, 10 January 2019 - 10:15 AM.


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#193 GolfChannel

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:33 AM

Most of the statistics generated that would be important would largely be dependant on the particular golfer. Really, anything we see statistically is just an indication of whether or not you should test the method yourself.

I know that I always leave the pin in the hole. I have for the last few months. I have no concern about deflection because my speed control is quite good. As others have said above, I have holed more putts mainly because of that burn the edge and out putt which now more often than not gets caught by the flag and now counts as a made putt.
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#194 20six

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

Chamblee might very well be correct, but I doubt that many tour pros follow his advice on much of anything.

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#195 LeoLeo99

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:49 PM

View Post20six, on 11 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

Chamblee might very well be correct, but I doubt that many tour pros follow his advice on much of anything.

They still have their caddie trend the pin.


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#196 goinlow67

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:28 PM

View PostRMGC_NV, on 04 January 2019 - 10:11 AM, said:

There's a clip on GC where Chamblee says he did "the research" and concluded that every player should leave the flagstick in. Naturally there is no mention or explanation as to what research he is actually referring to. Anyone know?


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#197 goinlow67

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:30 PM

Iowa here, but I played last weekend because we had decent weather. I liked leaving the flag in mainly because it seems to make the hole and putt more three dimensional. I like the look and hope the players Iím paired with choose to leave it in because it certainly has the possibility of speeding up play.

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#198 Barfolomew

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 03:30 PM

Chamblee love train wrecks
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#199 andrue

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 04:20 PM

View PostObee, on 05 January 2019 - 10:02 PM, said:

First round today with the new rules.  We played with the flag IN on pretty much all first putts outside 30 feet. It absolutely sped play up. By how much, I don't know. But there were at least 6 or 7 times during our round where I was the first to reach a green, no one was there yet to take the flag, and I putted. It was pretty great, actually. Then, when we were all closer to the hole, we took it out.
My mate and I have been doing that for years. Usually we arrive at the green together but if one of us has to walk around to get to their ball the other will often putt with the flag in. I have also left the flag in when playing solo for years out of sheer laziness.

The only affect I've noticed is that on excessive overshoots hitting the pin will typically leave the ball a lot closer to the hole. But I'm a dropper and am far more likely to leave the ball short so that benefit doesn't help me much. Overall I don't think pin in or out makes any difference to me so I'll do whatever is most convenient.
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#200 cfunk11

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 01:03 PM

The first question I would have has to do with having less foot traffic around the hole. If you have one less person walking to the hole to pull the flag out per group doesn't that lesson the amount of deformation around the hole.  If there is 50 groups that come through a day that is 50 less sets of feet tracking across the green. Maybe it makes a difference maybe it doesn't. I think of the greens are wet and soft it might make a difference. Plus the acutual ack of pulling the the pin when it doesn't want to slide out. I seen guys jerk the pin hard enough to make me worry the cup would lip up.

Second, can leaving the pin in be used as a visual aid, especially for lag putting. Any visual reference helps me. Instead of putting at a 3" inch hole 60' away, you have a pin to help.


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#201 callawayjay

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:03 AM

My 2 round test tells me to leave it in. It changes the perspective and you definitely do hit the putts firmer and if anything if changes the mindset of the putt. One of my good friends who struggles with the yips seemed to putt a lot more firm and confident with it in.  We play a side game that any putt made outside the length of the flag for par or better is $10 from each player. I made 5 last round

Edited by callawayjay, 14 January 2019 - 12:04 AM.


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#202 Golfjack

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:18 AM

View Postcallawayjay, on 14 January 2019 - 12:03 AM, said:

My 2 round test tells me to leave it in. It changes the perspective and you definitely do hit the putts firmer and if anything if changes the mindset of the putt. One of my good friends who struggles with the yips seemed to putt a lot more firm and confident with it in.  We play a side game that any putt made outside the length of the flag for par or better is $10 from each player. I made 5 last round

So you took the flag out to measure it?  Kidding!  

Anyway had my first 2019 round, and most of the time left it in.  It's just a lot of asking do you want it in or out.  I prefer it in, just a bit awkward on short putts the flag feels like it's in my face.
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#203 PowerCobra98

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 07:34 AM

I play alone 99% of the time.  I have always left the flag in as it always seemed pointless to remove it because it simply takes longer and lengthens a round.  The 1% of the time I play with somebody else and they pull the flag it always bugged me because I was so used to putting with the flag in.  It was always a rule I chose not to follow because it seemed pointless to remove the flag.  Now I don't have to be a scofflaw anymore for not removing it.  Feels good knowing I'll be a law-abiding golfer again.

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#204 steve76t

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 01:49 PM

I've read many of the posts in the thread but not all so this may have already been mentioned...  

I play nearly all of my golf on public/municipal courses.  Some have much better hole conditions than others.  At those "others" many flag sticks have quite a significant lean while in the hole.  I do plan to leave the flag stick in more times than not.  However, if that lean cannot be corrected before I putt I will be taking the flag stick out.  Especially on windy days where is moving back n forth.

Oh, with the flag stick in I like that can putt more aggressively.  On short putts, anything under 10 foot, I'll just aim at the stick & hit the putt more firmly than I would have without it.

Edited by steve76t, 16 January 2019 - 01:54 PM.

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#205 Z1ggy16

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 05:41 PM

Take it as you will

https://www.youtube....h?v=v9ZXh7g11C8


If not allowed to post this link, please remove mods.

Here is a screen shot of the results if link is removed or you can't view it:
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I won't be taking it as gospel, but I'm going to try leaving the pin in this year. The evidence seems to point that it will at least help, and should almost never hurt.

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#206 russian7

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Posted Yesterday, 12:20 AM

View PostGMR, on 04 January 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this.  I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point.  That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

U agree it gives a precise aim point an I make way more

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#207 soregongolfer

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Posted Yesterday, 02:31 AM

View Poststeve76t, on 16 January 2019 - 01:49 PM, said:

I've read many of the posts in the thread but not all so this may have already been mentioned...  

I play nearly all of my golf on public/municipal courses.  Some have much better hole conditions than others.  At those "others" many flag sticks have quite a significant lean while in the hole.  I do plan to leave the flag stick in more times than not.  However, if that lean cannot be corrected before I putt I will be taking the flag stick out.  Especially on windy days where is moving back n forth.

Oh, with the flag stick in I like that can putt more aggressively.  On short putts, anything under 10 foot, I'll just aim at the stick & hit the putt more firmly than I would have without it.

You make a good point.  At my local goat track, the pins all have a big lean thanks to a storm we had a few weeks ago.  The part of the cup where the pins go in were stretched out and I'm sure they'll remain that way until they change them (which could be years.)

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#208 OldTomMorris

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Posted Yesterday, 02:48 AM

When interviewed yesterday after his round on the ET Lee Westwood make an interesting point when asked about putting with the flag in. He said he will use it as a depth perception aid on long putts but otherwise its as before. He pointed out players remove the flag for a short-range "makable" chip so why now start putting with the flag in. I see his logic but I also note the data from the experiments.
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#209 A.Princey

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Posted Yesterday, 04:47 AM

I feel like as an aim point it will be good, but I will lose touch/sensation for proper make speeds at shorter lengths. The less capable I am of dying the ball into the hole at proper speed, the tougher putting on break near the hole will be. Not only that, you've gotta hit the hole for this data to work. Would you rather hit the hole for guaranteed make, running the chance for a 9' comebacker, or try for the hole and leave yourself a makeable second?

I'd also like to see data for green speeds that stimp like 8' for those runout footages, the ball's gonna be going a lot faster nearer the hole. On slow greens you'd have to be a clown to run the ball 9' by. Pin in on slow greens might be a hindrance. Long range yes, short range rely on putting skill, not ram-jam tactics.

Edited by A.Princey, Yesterday, 05:01 AM.

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