Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

* * * * * 2 votes

Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in


208 replies to this topic

#1 RMGC_NV

RMGC_NV

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 300 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 56465
  • Joined: 05/25/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 107

Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:11 AM

There's a clip on GC where Chamblee says he did "the research" and concluded that every player should leave the flagstick in. Naturally there is no mention or explanation as to what research he is actually referring to. Anyone know?


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 Pulledabill

Pulledabill

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 478786
  • Joined: 08/13/2017
  • Location:Keizer, OR
  • Handicap:6
GolfWRX Likes : 68

Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:14 AM

I find it funny that he is such a slow player but is opting to leave the stick in.

2

#3 rawdog

rawdog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,782 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 424320
  • Joined: 05/08/2016
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Handicap:8.6
  • Ebay ID:staghornsandmore
GolfWRX Likes : 2344

Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:30 AM

I've written extensively on the subject. Not sure what pace of play has to do with it.

One of the concerns was playing partners may be inconvenienced but Dustin Johnson said there was no issue.
“It was definitely weird, well not weird, but different looking watching somewhat putt with the flag in but it actually worked out where it wasn’t a big deal today,” Johnson said.
“It didn’t really slow us down or anything. There were a couple of times where if we were close and the flag was out I would just putt it because I knew he would put in back in.”
https://www.pgatour....f-new-2019.html

But from a physics standpoint, he's most likely referring to Dave Pelz's research. I add my own conclusions from an articulate post from another golf forum:

Pelz Research:

http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry18220936

My conclusions:

http://www.golfwrx.c...0#entry18222946

Poster identified six areas of potential benefit for putting with the stick in. The first three have justification rooted in physics. Personally, I believe #1 is most important, followed closely by #3. I am not a physicist, but know enough about each topic to expound a little bit if you'd like.
https://thesandtrap....e-flagstick-in/
  • The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole.
  • Unless you have exceptional distance control, effective capture speed can remain about the same.
  • Hitting the ball more firmly allows for a larger margin of error. It also reduces the tendency of a slow-moving putt to "wobble" or be moved off-line due to imperfections.
  • Players, particularly poorer putters, leave a lot of putts from 6' to 15' short. This change would let them be more aggressive.
  • The situations where the flagstick should be removed (it leans too much, it's moving around a lot in the wind) almost never occur.
  • The flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim.

Cobra LTD Driver
Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
Cobra F7 One Length Irons
Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
6I = 24*   7I = 29*   8I = 34*   9I = 39*   PW = 44*   GW = 49*   SW = 54*   LW = 59*
Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
Maxfli SoftFli

3

#4 GMR

GMR

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,030 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 175756
  • Joined: 04/17/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 522

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:03 AM

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this.  I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point.  That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

Edited by GMR, 04 January 2019 - 11:03 AM.


4

#5 rawdog

rawdog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,782 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 424320
  • Joined: 05/08/2016
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Handicap:8.6
  • Ebay ID:staghornsandmore
GolfWRX Likes : 2344

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:08 AM

View PostGMR, on 04 January 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this.  I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point.  That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

Interesting point.

So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.

The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying :D

Edited by rawdog, 04 January 2019 - 11:08 AM.

Cobra LTD Driver
Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
Cobra F7 One Length Irons
Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
6I = 24*   7I = 29*   8I = 34*   9I = 39*   PW = 44*   GW = 49*   SW = 54*   LW = 59*
Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
Maxfli SoftFli

5

#6 gvogel

gvogel

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,694 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 37680
  • Joined: 08/19/2007
  • Location:Western NY
  • Ebay ID:dbvogey
GolfWRX Likes : 2189

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:11 AM

Here I thought it was all about the coefficient of restitution of the flagstick.
On Sundays, I used to play hickory

6

#7 GMR

GMR

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,030 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 175756
  • Joined: 04/17/2012
GolfWRX Likes : 522

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:17 AM

View Postrawdog, on 04 January 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

View PostGMR, on 04 January 2019 - 11:03 AM, said:

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this.  I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point.  That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

Interesting point.

So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.

The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying :D
I also play better when I go through a 45-60 second pre-shot routine and putt better when I walk around every putt to take it in from all angles. Needless to say, unless it's a competitive round with something material on the line, I'm not doing those either or else I'm not going to get invited out to play very often.  I agree with you that the default for a pin should be in, but something tells me others are unlikely to see it that way (I haven't yet played in 2019 so not yet sure).  But just like I'm easy going with respect to what tees we play off, I'm planning to be easy going with respect to the pin being in/out make it as quick and easy for everyone involved.

That said, I hope everyone wants to leave it in :)

7

#8 HoosierMizuno

HoosierMizuno

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,853 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 87620
  • Joined: 07/06/2009
  • Handicap:5
GolfWRX Likes : 886

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:29 AM

chamblee specifically referenced pelz's research....

i can't see how having the flagstick in would actually help in regards to the ball hitting the flagstick on anything other than lag putts hit way too hard or fast downhill putts hit too hard. its hard to think there would be a single putt inside 15' on tour that is holed this year that would've not gone in if the pin were removed.

chamblee can talk all he wants about how the players not leaving the pin in are at a disadvantage, but i'd love for him to have pointed to a single putt that would not have been holed that day by bryson if the pin were removed.

Edited by HoosierMizuno, 04 January 2019 - 11:29 AM.

Ping G400 Max 10.5 w/ Hzrdus Black 6.0 75g
TM M2 3HL w/ Rogue Black 70 S
Titleist 818H1 Atmos 80s Blue
J15CB w/ Modus 120X 4-P

Cleveland RTX3 CB 50 54 58
TM Spider Tour Black w/ T-sightline 36"

8

#9 Cwebb

Cwebb

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,621 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 21353
  • Joined: 11/04/2006
GolfWRX Likes : 1910

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:38 AM

It will be interesting to see what Brooke Henderson on the LPGA tour does this season.  She's had her caddy tend the flag from distances and situations that I'd never seen anyone else choose to.

I think they mentioned something about a depth perception advantage

9

#10 Obee

Obee

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,377 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 72306
  • Joined: 01/09/2009
  • Location:Riverside, CA, USA
  • Handicap:+1
GolfWRX Likes : 4742

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:53 AM

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me to the contrary, and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

The pin thing is like that.

Science. LOL

Edited by Obee, 04 January 2019 - 07:01 PM.

PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 jll62

jll62

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 1,778 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 9627
  • Joined: 01/10/2006
  • Location:Minneapolis
  • Handicap:+4.2
GolfWRX Likes : 1442

Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:57 AM

I'm looking forward to doing some of my own testing on this with my Perfect Putter, but I am firmly in the camp of leaving the flagstick in as the default state based on all of the evidence we have to date. The key will be knowing when it's advantageous to take it out, but I think those situations will be rare.
TaylorMade M3 9.5, GD Tour AD GP-6s, 44.5"
TaylorMade M3 T3, GD Tour AD GP-7s, 42.5"
TaylorMade P-790 UDI 2, Aerotech SteelFiber i95 S
TaylorMade P-770 3-4, DG X100 (SSx1)
TaylorMade RSi TP 5-PW, KBS C-Taper S+
TaylorMade Milled Grind 52 Raw, DG S400
TaylorMade Hi-Toe 60 (58), DG S400
TaylorMade DJ Itsy Bitsy Proto, 34"
TaylorMade TP5x #12

jll62's WITB

11

#12 rawdog

rawdog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,782 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 424320
  • Joined: 05/08/2016
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Handicap:8.6
  • Ebay ID:staghornsandmore
GolfWRX Likes : 2344

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

 Obee, on 04 January 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

The pin thing is like that.

Science. LOL

I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.
Cobra LTD Driver
Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
Cobra F7 One Length Irons
Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
6I = 24*   7I = 29*   8I = 34*   9I = 39*   PW = 44*   GW = 49*   SW = 54*   LW = 59*
Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
Maxfli SoftFli

12

#13 sdandrea

sdandrea

    Steve

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117468
  • Joined: 11/14/2010
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA & Hernando FL
  • Handicap:11
  • Ebay ID:sdan6017
GolfWRX Likes : 1912

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

Played 18 holes this morning with SWMBO.  We both left the flag in.  It definitely speeds play up when all the players in a group are leaving it in, especially if your group plays ready golf on the greens as we did this morning.  I putted a few times while she was still getting to her ball or raking a bunker.  Granted, this is very casual play,  but I could see it speeding things up in recreational golf.

Edited by sdandrea, 04 January 2019 - 12:04 PM.

PING G SF Tec  10*
Pinhawk SL 5W
TM Superfast 5h
PING G400 7-UW  Alta CB
TILLE OMG 56*
Scotty Fastback

13

#14 Obee

Obee

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,377 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 72306
  • Joined: 01/09/2009
  • Location:Riverside, CA, USA
  • Handicap:+1
GolfWRX Likes : 4742

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:04 PM

 rawdog, on 04 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

 Obee, on 04 January 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

The pin thing is like that.

Science. LOL

I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.

Somebody told me he did his tests with both types of flags? Or did subsequent tests with them? If he did, and came to the conclusion that you should still leave the flag in with the heavy flags, then he's wrong. LOL ;-)
PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)

14

#15 rawdog

rawdog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,782 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 424320
  • Joined: 05/08/2016
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Handicap:8.6
  • Ebay ID:staghornsandmore
GolfWRX Likes : 2344

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:12 PM

 Obee, on 04 January 2019 - 12:04 PM, said:

 rawdog, on 04 January 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

 Obee, on 04 January 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

The pin thing is like that.

Science. LOL

I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.

Somebody told me he did his tests with both types of flags? Or did subsequent tests with them? If he did, and came to the conclusion that you should still leave the flag in with the heavy flags, then he's wrong. LOL ;-)

I can't confirm the flagsticks he used, but I would be highly doubtful he came to his conclusions using the wide metal ones. Anyone have him on speed dial?

Cobra LTD Driver
Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
Cobra F7 One Length Irons
Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
6I = 24*   7I = 29*   8I = 34*   9I = 39*   PW = 44*   GW = 49*   SW = 54*   LW = 59*
Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
Maxfli SoftFli

15

#16 rawdog

rawdog

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,782 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 424320
  • Joined: 05/08/2016
  • Location:Cleveland, OH
  • Handicap:8.6
  • Ebay ID:staghornsandmore
GolfWRX Likes : 2344

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:19 PM

The benefit of the flag in is hard to see with the naked eye.

Of course you aren't going to see it on every putt made with the stick in.

Where it will have aided is if it deadened a putt that would've lipped out (ie, was traveling too fast to be captured into the hole by gravity).

Here is an image I created for the other thread that shows how the stick adds effective capture width to the hole as the speed of the putt (when it reaches the hole) increases.

So yeah, duh, if you die the ball in the hole every time, you won't see a difference. But players don't do that every time. And, additionally, being able to hit the ball firmer at a now wider target should result in fewer putts missed short as players adjust. Win-win for flagstick in.

Attached Thumbnails

  • post-424320-0-85552400-1541701527.jpeg

Cobra LTD Driver
Aldila Rogue Black, 9.5* @44.5"
In1Zone Single Length Fairway Woods

Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 5W = 19*
Graffaloy ProLaunch Axis Blue @41.5" 7W = 23*
Cobra F7 One Length Irons
Nippon Modus 105 Stiff @ 36.5"
6I = 24*   7I = 29*   8I = 34*   9I = 39*   PW = 44*   GW = 49*   SW = 54*   LW = 59*
Odyssey #9 HT Metal X Milled @33.5"
Maxfli SoftFli

16

#17 Jarlaxle

Jarlaxle

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 433 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 17841
  • Joined: 08/11/2006
  • Location:Atlanta, GA
GolfWRX Likes : 341

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:32 PM

I like to sneak out by myself late in the day and play fast... you better believe I'm leaving the flag in :)
"We're not here for a long time... we're here for a good time."  

Mizuno JPX 900 Driver w/ Speeder Evo II 661 Stiff
Mizuno JPX 900 3W w/ Speeder Evo II 661 Stiff
Titleist AP3 4 & 5 Iron w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Titleist AP2 6 - PW w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Miura Y Grind 51 w/ Project X 5.5
Miura C Grind 55 w/ Project X 5.5
Miura C Grind 59 w/ Project X 5.5
Custom Edel E3
Titleist Lightweight Stand Bag

17

#18 sui generis

sui generis

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,601 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132389
  • Joined: 07/05/2011
  • Location:Asheville
GolfWRX Likes : 2423

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:38 PM

Hope it keeps guys from dropping (as opposed to laying down) the flagstick on the green, too. :golfer:
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

18

#19 OldTomMorris

OldTomMorris

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,639 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 129568
  • Joined: 05/26/2011
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland
GolfWRX Likes : 476

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:47 PM

I might be wrong but at the moment I can't even imagine a time where many PGA Tour players will hole out with the flag in.  I guess if someone starts winning doing it then they will follow suit.
Titleist 910D3 8.5°
TaylorMade M3 15°
Titleist CB (710) 3-PW
Callaway Mack Daddy 4 Chrome 54° S Grind & 58° C Grind
Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport 2

Titleist Pro V 1x

19

#20 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,325 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2013

Posted 04 January 2019 - 12:47 PM

 Obee, on 04 January 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL


What I find most interesting about this post is that you prefer to use YOUR anecdotal evidence ("that ball would easily have gone in") as opposed to data by someone who actually observed thousands of tests.  I'd agree that different flagsticks will produce different results.  But my opinion, based on physics alone, is that a heavier flagstick will have slightly less of an advantage as compared to the lighter sticks, but will still improve results over having the flagstick removed.  But both of our opinions should be open to revision, I hear that two or three more new studies will be released in the new future, including fresh work by Pelz.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#21 rangersgoalie

rangersgoalie

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,653 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 290733
  • Joined: 01/07/2014
  • Location:CA
GolfWRX Likes : 3203

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:01 PM

What’s the rule on putting your own flagstick in the hole

Some of the little ones on putting greens work great at absorbing the ball

Could you imagine a player carrying his own little flagstick and putting it in tomputt  hahaa

21

#22 CasualLie

CasualLie

    Do Woodchucks Chuck Wood?

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,109 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99500
  • Joined: 12/01/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 346

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:03 PM

I've seen these flagsticks that are thin at the bottom (first 8 - 12 inches) and generally thick with some wood outer layer or similar.  So use these and start gluing them into the cup so the flag cannot be removed...that will speed up play!

22

#23 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,325 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2013

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:07 PM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 04 January 2019 - 01:01 PM, said:

What’s the rule on putting your own flagstick in the hole

Some of the little ones on putting greens work great at absorbing the ball

Could you imagine a player carrying his own little flagstick and putting it in tomputt  hahaa

View PostCasualLie, on 04 January 2019 - 01:03 PM, said:

I've seen these flagsticks that are thin at the bottom (first 8 - 12 inches) and generally thick with some wood outer layer or similar.  So use these and start gluing them into the cup so the flag cannot be removed...that will speed up play!
For better or for worse, the flagstick is defined in the Equipment Rules, Part 8-1, as a "movable pole" (so it can't be glued in) "provided by the Committee" (so you can't bring your own).

23

#24 Dr. Block

Dr. Block

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 573 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 477376
  • Joined: 08/02/2017
  • Location:Aurora, IL
  • Handicap:3.7
GolfWRX Likes : 764

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:39 PM

If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the hole should be a lot better.  Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

Edited by Dr. Block, 04 January 2019 - 01:43 PM.


24

#25 sdandrea

sdandrea

    Steve

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,968 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117468
  • Joined: 11/14/2010
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA & Hernando FL
  • Handicap:11
  • Ebay ID:sdan6017
GolfWRX Likes : 1912

Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:42 PM

View PostDr. Block, on 04 January 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the cup should be a lot better.  Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

The only thing I'm going to miss is the anger release of jamming the pin back into the cup after I dead pull a 2 footer.....

PING G SF Tec  10*
Pinhawk SL 5W
TM Superfast 5h
PING G400 7-UW  Alta CB
TILLE OMG 56*
Scotty Fastback

25

#26 gatorMD

gatorMD

    Hacker-in-Chief

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,520 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 487980
  • Joined: 12/03/2017
  • Location:St. Petersburg, FL
  • Handicap:0.9
GolfWRX Likes : 2395

Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:24 PM

View Postsdandrea, on 04 January 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

View PostDr. Block, on 04 January 2019 - 01:39 PM, said:

If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the cup should be a lot better.  Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

The only thing I'm going to miss is the anger release of jamming the pin back into the cup after I dead pull a 2 footer.....

same lololol
Driver: Ping G400 Max 9 Tour AD DI 7
3W: TM M2 Tour AD MT 7
Utility: Srixon Z U65 3/19 Blueboard
Irons: Ben Hogan PTx 4-PW Tour V
Wedges: SM6 50F and 54S; SM5 60K DG
Putter: Piretti Cottonwood II

Ball: Titleist AVX

26

#27 Obee

Obee

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,377 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 72306
  • Joined: 01/09/2009
  • Location:Riverside, CA, USA
  • Handicap:+1
GolfWRX Likes : 4742

Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:26 PM

View Postdavep043, on 04 January 2019 - 12:47 PM, said:

View PostObee, on 04 January 2019 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL


What I find most interesting about this post is that you prefer to use YOUR anecdotal evidence ("that ball would easily have gone in") as opposed to data by someone who actually observed thousands of tests.  I'd agree that different flagsticks will produce different results.  But my opinion, based on physics alone, is that a heavier flagstick will have slightly less of an advantage as compared to the lighter sticks, but will still improve results over having the flagstick removed.  But both of our opinions should be open to revision, I hear that two or three more new studies will be released in the new future, including fresh work by Pelz.

Yes, I'm hoping to see fresh work by someone on this.

My anecdotal evidence is so one-sidedly biased toward taking the heavy sticks OUT that it would take a very, very good study for me to believe otherwise. Certainly open to changing my mind though.
PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)

27

#28 Z1ggy16

Z1ggy16

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,402 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 430110
  • Joined: 06/22/2016
GolfWRX Likes : 2260

Posted 04 January 2019 - 02:29 PM

MGS is releasing their own study soon. Hopefully it's actually scientific and somewhat controlled. Most of their "best of X year" and "most wanted" tests are somewhat unreliable due to all the variables they still leave in testing.
WITB
LTD Pro Kiyoshi HB 65X
LTD Kai'li 70X
P790 Modus 120X  or 818H2 (Shaft TBD)
Miura CB/MB Combo Modus 120X
Glide Stealth 2.0 50/10 (Testing SM7)
Glide Stealth 2.0 54/12 (Testing MD4 & SM7)
Glide Stealth 2.0 58/12 (Testing SM7 and MD4)
TP Black Copper Juno
TP5X
Sun Mountain 4.5 Bag
Puma Ignite Pwradapt

28

#29 GLF4EVR

GLF4EVR

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 789 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 242279
  • Joined: 04/01/2013
  • Location:South Dakota
  • Ebay ID:wwpacres
GolfWRX Likes : 245

Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:19 PM

All I can say is there is 1 hole at my home course that this rule can help.  Last 70 yards is all uphill to a two-tiered green.  At times during the summer if the hole is on the lower tier & you are on the upper tier.......you might be looking at a 70 yard second putt :russian_roulette:

29

#30 davep043

davep043

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,325 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 489076
  • Joined: 12/20/2017
  • Location:Reston, VA, and Southern Pines, NC
  • Handicap:3.8
GolfWRX Likes : 2013

Posted 04 January 2019 - 03:37 PM

View PostGLF4EVR, on 04 January 2019 - 03:19 PM, said:

All I can say is there is 1 hole at my home course that this rule can help.  Last 70 yards is all uphill to a two-tiered green.  At times during the summer if the hole is on the lower tier & you are on the upper tier.......you might be looking at a 70 yard second putt :russian_roulette:
I'm waiting for the rule change that allows you to lay the flagstick flat on the ground behind the hole, that's what will REALLY help those putts.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors