Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Difference between Jack Nicklaus course vs Greg Norman course


  • Please log in to reply
20 replies to this topic

#1 hypergolf

hypergolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,202 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 28176
  • Joined: 04/23/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 45

Posted 02 January 2019 - 05:36 PM

 DavePelz4, on 02 January 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

Have played quite a few Nicklaus courses and see a few things in common.  First it seems as though he tries to work with the land as it and incorporate as much of the natural terrain as possible.  Also seems doglegs are more often left to right, which is how he hit the ball. Greens are generally smaller and positioning is more strategic.

Have only played 2 Norman designed courses and he seems to be more comfortable moving dirt to create what he wants.  Bunkers in the fairways and greenside are more prevalent, greens larger and I'd say you have to hit the ball further on a comparative basis as compared to a JN design.

Just one opinion.

What are the main differences between courses designed by these two? Any trademark features of the course for either?

Edited by hypergolf, 02 January 2019 - 07:54 PM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 DavePelz4

DavePelz4

    Legend

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 23,648 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 69051
  • Joined: 11/10/2008
  • Location:A golf course in the Chicago area.
GolfWRX Likes : 25132

Posted 02 January 2019 - 06:00 PM

Have played quite a few Nicklaus courses and see a few things in common.  First it seems as though he tries to work with the land as it and incorporate as much of the natural terrain as possible.  Also seems doglegs are more often left to right, which is how he hit the ball. Greens are generally smaller and positioning is more strategic.

Have only played 2 Norman designed courses and he seems to be more comfortable moving dirt to create what he wants.  Bunkers in the fairways and greenside are more prevalent, greens larger and I'd say you have to hit the ball further on a comparative basis as compared to a JN design.

Just one opinion.

2

#3 Hawkeye77

Hawkeye77

    Puffins (not El Toucans)!

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 16,302 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 100868
  • Joined: 12/27/2009
  • Location:Iowa
GolfWRX Likes : 12817

Posted 02 January 2019 - 06:56 PM

Santa Claus has a brother that designs golf courses? "Nicholas" my butt.

OP, you get that thread title fixed or Popeye Doyle be asking where you pick your feet!

Loving this Fernando Rey Dey!  (See if OP catches that, lol).

And OP, I mean it - shame on you.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 02 January 2019 - 06:59 PM.


3

#4 hypergolf

hypergolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,202 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 28176
  • Joined: 04/23/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 45

Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:52 PM

 DavePelz4, on 02 January 2019 - 06:00 PM, said:

Have played quite a few Nicklaus courses and see a few things in common.  First it seems as though he tries to work with the land as it and incorporate as much of the natural terrain as possible.  Also seems doglegs are more often left to right, which is how he hit the ball. Greens are generally smaller and positioning is more strategic.

Have only played 2 Norman designed courses and he seems to be more comfortable moving dirt to create what he wants.  Bunkers in the fairways and greenside are more prevalent, greens larger and I'd say you have to hit the ball further on a comparative basis as compared to a JN design.

Just one opinion.

Thanks for the information. Much appreciated.

4

#5 hypergolf

hypergolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,202 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 28176
  • Joined: 04/23/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 45

Posted 02 January 2019 - 07:54 PM

 Hawkeye77, on 02 January 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

Santa Claus has a brother that designs golf courses? "Nicholas" my butt.

OP, you get that thread title fixed or Popeye Doyle be asking where you pick your feet!

Loving this Fernando Rey Dey!  (See if OP catches that, lol).

And OP, I mean it - shame on you.

Thanks for pointing out the spelling error.


5

#6 Man_O_War

Man_O_War

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,397 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 135721
  • Joined: 08/08/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 1169

Posted 02 January 2019 - 08:44 PM

much rather play a Dye/Clark course than any by these two. Not a fan of the two i have played by each of them. Something about Dye courses....and nothing like link courses. Maybe if any of these two designed a true links course...we would have something..find their designs...ho hum boring
Cobra LTD Pro Project X LZ 6.0 71g HC/ Fuji 661 III
Cobra LTD 3/4  Kai'li 80
Cobra LTD 4/5  Kai'li 80
TM Mid_Rescue TP 22*
Nike Vapor Pro Irons DG 120 S400  4-pw
RTX 3.0 50, 54, 60 Modus 125
Machine LN M6

6

#7 Hawkeye77

Hawkeye77

    Puffins (not El Toucans)!

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 16,302 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 100868
  • Joined: 12/27/2009
  • Location:Iowa
GolfWRX Likes : 12817

Posted 02 January 2019 - 09:26 PM

 hypergolf, on 02 January 2019 - 07:54 PM, said:

 Hawkeye77, on 02 January 2019 - 06:56 PM, said:

Santa Claus has a brother that designs golf courses? "Nicholas" my butt.

OP, you get that thread title fixed or Popeye Doyle be asking where you pick your feet!

Loving this Fernando Rey Dey!  (See if OP catches that, lol).

And OP, I mean it - shame on you.

Thanks for pointing out the spelling error.

You spell Thomas Jeferson or Rory McElroy however you want, but Jack?  Even my computer autocorrects to "Nicklaus", lol.

Anyway, looks like you have gotten one solid comparison post, hope you get some more.

7

#8 ram01002

ram01002

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,743 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 1598
  • Joined: 06/12/2005
GolfWRX Likes : 666

Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:16 AM

Everyone has an opinion, but both designers are horrible. Nicklaus designs are a world class case study in sucking the fun out of golf.

8

#9 schley

schley

    Love ya don't tell ya enough!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 954 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 58583
  • Joined: 06/22/2008
  • Location:Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
  • Handicap:12.3
GolfWRX Likes : 358

Posted 03 January 2019 - 11:10 AM

Nicklaus - generous fairways, very difficult approaches often with raised greens or bunkers greenside.  Not many holes to roll the ball into the green, thus you need to hit the ball high into the green.

Norman - not many trees for me is obvious.  Greens are not symmetric, uses water on sides of fairways more so than greenside.  Bunkers are also no symmetrical, even uses some vegetation inside of the bunkers as he originally did at the PGA West Norman course before it was too damn hard and they had to remove it a couple years later.

9

#10 GSDriver

GSDriver

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 420 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 493210
  • Joined: 02/10/2018
  • Location:DFW TX
  • Handicap:4
GolfWRX Likes : 206

Posted 03 January 2019 - 11:29 AM

 ram01002, on 03 January 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

Everyone has an opinion, but both designers are horrible. Nicklaus designs are a world class case study in sucking the fun out of golf.

I like Jack's designs, and Norman's as well.  Not for the beginner for certain, but even my wife likes playing them.  Pete Dye still my favorite, but haven't played a 'bad' course by Jack or Greg.  Here in DFW they had to redesign a Norman track as 'too hard' for most folks.

Epic Speeder 661
Razr Fit Xtreme 4/7 woods
Epic Hyrbrid 23*
Apex Pro 5-P Recoil 110
MD Slate Forged 52
PM Grind 58
- a host of Odysseys

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 Argonne69

Argonne69

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,359 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102839
  • Joined: 02/01/2010
  • Location:Chicago, IL
GolfWRX Likes : 25256

Posted 03 January 2019 - 12:22 PM

 schley, on 03 January 2019 - 11:10 AM, said:

Nicklaus - generous fairways, very difficult approaches often with raised greens or bunkers greenside.  Not many holes to roll the ball into the green, thus you need to hit the ball high into the green.

Norman - not many trees for me is obvious.  Greens are not symmetric, uses water on sides of fairways more so than greenside.  Bunkers are also no symmetrical, even uses some vegetation inside of the bunkers as he originally did at the PGA West Norman course before it was too damn hard and they had to remove it a couple years later.

Jack may have generous fairways, but he also has rather penal fairway bunkers, i.e. steep faces. I guess he figures that if you miss his fairways you deserve a 1/2 stroke penalty. I've found that unless you roll into the back 1/3rd of the bunker you will likely not be able to get enough club on it to reach the green without risking plugging it in the face of the bunker.

Jack's greens also tend to be quite undulating, often with multiple tiers.

11

#12 Instron4204

Instron4204

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 26 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 389790
  • Joined: 08/05/2015
  • Location:Canada
GolfWRX Likes : 10

Posted 03 January 2019 - 11:02 PM

 Argonne69, on 03 January 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

 schley, on 03 January 2019 - 11:10 AM, said:

Nicklaus - generous fairways, very difficult approaches often with raised greens or bunkers greenside.  Not many holes to roll the ball into the green, thus you need to hit the ball high into the green.

Norman - not many trees for me is obvious.  Greens are not symmetric, uses water on sides of fairways more so than greenside.  Bunkers are also no symmetrical, even uses some vegetation inside of the bunkers as he originally did at the PGA West Norman course before it was too damn hard and they had to remove it a couple years later.

Jack may have generous fairways, but he also has rather penal fairway bunkers, i.e. steep faces. I guess he figures that if you miss his fairways you deserve a 1/2 stroke penalty. I've found that unless you roll into the back 1/3rd of the bunker you will likely not be able to get enough club on it to reach the green without risking plugging it in the face of the bunker.

Jack's greens also tend to be quite undulating, often with multiple tiers.

This is very accurate from my point of view as well.

12

#13 tets

tets

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 67 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33461
  • Joined: 07/01/2007
  • Ebay ID:tetsler
GolfWRX Likes : 11

Posted 12 January 2019 - 06:07 AM

The main difference is 16 majors

13

#14 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,254 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 1792

Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:20 AM

The biggest difference, in general, is that Norman has mostly built resort courses at high-end facilities (not exclusively, but thatís the majority of his work). Nicklaus has designed mostly (but certainly not exclusively) courses anchored in big real estate developments. Even at their best, this split shows through - Ellerston was built as a super private resort course (for a single family); Muirfield Village anchors a housing community.

From a design perspective, there are a couple of things that stand out to me. Nicklaus favors left-to-right play; tight green surrounds; and almost always throws a center-of-fairway bunker into the mix. Norman does the best job Iíve ever seen of building multiple tees. His forward tees often provide a completely different - but equally compelling - playing experience to the tips. The holes can often be completely different from a strategy perspective from tee to tee, which is a lot of fun when youíre spending a week at the resort.

14

#15 schley

schley

    Love ya don't tell ya enough!

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 954 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 58583
  • Joined: 06/22/2008
  • Location:Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
  • Handicap:12.3
GolfWRX Likes : 358

Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:27 AM

 raynorfan1, on 12 January 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:



Norman does the best job I've ever seen of building multiple tees. His forward tees often provide a completely different - but equally compelling - playing experience to the tips. The holes can often be completely different from a strategy perspective from tee to tee, which is a lot of fun when you're spending a week at the resort.

Do you actually play from the forward tees and back tees on Norman courses or is this a hypothesis? So have you played both back and front on a Norman course?  I'm curious which one (s) and your observations.

I don't think I have ever played the forward tees except some type of scramble.


15

#16 raynorfan1

raynorfan1

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,254 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 119065
  • Joined: 12/17/2010
GolfWRX Likes : 1792

Posted 12 January 2019 - 11:35 AM

 schley, on 12 January 2019 - 08:27 AM, said:

 raynorfan1, on 12 January 2019 - 08:20 AM, said:

Norman does the best job I've ever seen of building multiple tees. His forward tees often provide a completely different - but equally compelling - playing experience to the tips. The holes can often be completely different from a strategy perspective from tee to tee, which is a lot of fun when you're spending a week at the resort.

Do you actually play from the forward tees and back tees on Norman courses or is this a hypothesis? So have you played both back and front on a Norman course?  I'm curious which one (s) and your observations.

I don't think I have ever played the forward tees except some type of scramble.

The typical Norman resort course has 5 sets of tees; I don't typically play the most forward set, but if I'm spending a week at the resort, I'll play from each of the other four sets at least once. I like to see how courses play differently from different distances (which is one of the reasons that I don't like the "correct" set of tees rubric). There are a lot of courses (especially resort courses) where the design features really only impact one set of tees, and if you play from another tee box, the course kind of stinks. Most Norman courses have entirely different strategic issues from different tee boxes. Hazards that are out of play from the tips are in play from the whites, or vice-versa. They often encourage completely different angles depending on where the tee is.

And from a general perspective, I'm a huge advocate of mixing up distance. I try to play at least once a week at my home course from the Ladies' tees, and at least once a week from the tips - neither of which I'd ever play in an event. But in doing that, you get a lot more "real round" time with both your short clubs and your long clubs.

16

#17 cxx

cxx

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,948 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 142023
  • Joined: 10/10/2011
GolfWRX Likes : 844

Posted 12 January 2019 - 12:12 PM

The year that the course was built may have a lot to do with the playability of either designer's course. The slope wars, during the boom in golf, encouraged the designers to make courses more penal than necessary.  They were softened over time.  That's how we got extra long courses with small, elevated, clover leaf greens.

I was glad when that period was over.

17

#18 Roadking2003

Roadking2003

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,664 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 406342
  • Joined: 12/21/2015
  • Location:Austin
  • Handicap:8.7
GolfWRX Likes : 2286

Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:45 AM

Nicklaus is my favorite course architect.  I've played 39 of his courses all over the USA, Canada and Mexico.  Also one in Portugal.  I'll add my 40th Nicklaus course in Mexico later this month.  I frequently go out of my way to play his courses.

I can't think of any that I did not enjoy and most are spectacular (Shoal Creek, Monte Rei, Cabo Del Sol, Castle Pines GC, six Desert Mountain courses, Eldorado, Kauai Lagoons, etc.).  

Overall, I don't think he favors a left to right shot.  He does like doglegs and his bunkers are quite often very penal.  For example, some at Desert Mountain are located on the high side of a sloping green, so it's almost impossible to keep the ball near the hole when hitting out of the bunker.

He usually give you generous landing areas for your tee shots, then makes it more difficult on the approach to the green.  He almost always requires that you determine your strategy before playing a hole rather than just step up and bomb it.

His courses are generally more difficult than some other architects such as Palmer and Norman but also more interesting.

18

#19 RichieHunt

RichieHunt

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,418 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 209355
  • Joined: 10/30/2012
  • Location:Cocoa Beach, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 2825

Posted 14 January 2019 - 02:26 PM

Nicklaus designs are typically generous fairways with very difficult approach shots.  Muirfield Village is a great example.  For the season, the Tour averages roughly 61% of fairways hit.  At Muirfield Village the field hits about 70-75% of the fairways each year.

But, the approach shots are trecherous and you're often left with incredibly difficult up-and-down opportunities.  In the end, Nicklaus does utilize form follows function by giving the golfer easy tee shots and countering it with incredibly difficult approach shots.

I find Norman's designs to be ridiculous.  You can get super narrow fairways where the best strategy can be something like hitting a 7-iron off the tee and then hitting a 3-iron on the approach.  Just stupid.  Championsgate Resort is like this.  The International course is playable to a degree, but the National course is hideous.  They have greens that are literally about 20-25 wide.  TPC Sugarloaf was probably one of his better designs, but is nothing to write home about.  I just think he has almost no clue on how to design a course.





RH

19

#20 Argonne69

Argonne69

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,359 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 102839
  • Joined: 02/01/2010
  • Location:Chicago, IL
GolfWRX Likes : 25256

Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:50 PM

I thought Norman's designs at TPC San Antonio (Oaks) and Tiberon were fairly decent. Oaks is tough due to the scrub that runs along the holes. 'Miss the fairway, and it can be very penal. 'Just ask Kevin Na.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#21 juststeve

juststeve

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,605 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 154
  • Joined: 04/22/2005
GolfWRX Likes : 1885

Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:01 PM

Jack's signature is in the green complexes with a lot of humps and hollows around very lateral greens.  By lateral I mean green where there is a club or two difference from one side of the green to the next. Six iron to one side is perfect,to the other side shot and in the trap or over the green.  He demands that you control your distance.

Steve

21



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors