94 replies to this topic

[getitdaily]

Hawkeye77, on 27 December 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

NoFancyUsername., on 27 December 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Only two things to concern yourself with when putting, pick your line, then speed.
Two easy decisions. Technology sometimes destroys logic of man. He can't think anymore.

What happens if you pick.your line, pick your speed, and putt with a heel shafted putter with the ball up in your stance?

What happens if you pick your line, pick your speed, and putt with a face balanced mallet while trying to employ a stroke where you release the toe of the putter?

You may miss and figure out how to adjust to the putter and then putt just fine.

Correct. You may miss and then compensate. Then that compensation has to be repeated over and over. Why not go into those putts with compensation needs minimized as much as possible...?

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[bladehunter]

But that’s the thing. You only have to compensate once. Then repeat.

I know I sound argumentative. Sometimes I am. But this time I’m not trying to be. I’ve walked this path.  Again. Took me over 3 years to figure it out.  I too was looking for a magic formula.  The kicker is. It doesn’t exist.  All our eyes and strokes are different.   My stroke on Sam is about as close go square back and square through as you can be.  And with a conventional grip I do not like face balanced putters.  All heel shafted work best.  But.  With left hand low I prefer a long neck plumbers neck which is face balanced.  Why ?  I don’t release the toe at all with that stroke. But I do hold it same down the line.  Then there’s eyes over the ball or eyes inside the ball.  I can do both.  Depends on putter and ball position.  I prefer eyes over the ball but if I creep just past that pull everything.  It’s a dance. No matter what method.  You just have to give in to that.  And dance with the partner you wake up Witt that day.  All great pros change setup somewhat from time to time.  All of them.  Not major differences. But somewhat.  

Spieth was wider stance in 2015. Lately narrower.  Phil has played ball center , ball forward , eyes inside and eyes on top.  Forward press , claw , big grip small grip.  He putts well with it alll.  

Point is perfection isn’t there.  Just chase comfortable.  If it starts on the line you are aiming no matter setup , it can work.  That’s the only real test.

Edit.   I agree with you on “ as much as possible “.  I said that too. But in my mind I meant perfect.    Some days you wake up and make them all. Some days you can’t see the line. No fix for that except sunrise and sunset.

Edited by bladehunter, 27 December 2018 - 03:13 PM.

[getitdaily]

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 03:11 PM, said:

But that’s the thing. You only have to compensate once. Then repeat.

I know I sound argumentative. Sometimes I am. But this time I’m not trying to be. I’ve walked this path.  Again. Took me over 3 years to figure it out.  I too was looking for a magic formula.  The kicker is. It doesn’t exist.  All our eyes and strokes are different.   My stroke on Sam is about as close go square back and square through as you can be.  And with a conventional grip I do not like face balanced putters.  All heel shafted work best.  But.  With left hand low I prefer a long neck plumbers neck which is face balanced.  Why ?  I don’t release the toe at all with that stroke. But I do hold it same down the line.  Then there’s eyes over the ball or eyes inside the ball.  I can do both.  Depends on putter and ball position.  I prefer eyes over the ball but if I creep just past that pull everything.  It’s a dance. No matter what method.  You just have to give in to that.  And dance with the partner you wake up Witt that day.  All great pros change setup somewhat from time to time.  All of them.  Not major differences. But somewhat.  

Spieth was wider stance in 2015. Lately narrower.  Phil has played ball center , ball forward , eyes inside and eyes on top.  Forward press , claw , big grip small grip.  He putts well with it alll.  

Point is perfection isn’t there.  Just chase comfortable.  If it starts on the line you are aiming no matter setup , it can work.  That’s the only real test.

Edit.   I agree with you on “ as much as possible “.  I said that too. But in my mind I meant perfect.    Some days you wake up and make them all. Some days you can’t see the line. No fix for that except sunrise and sunset.

Agree. What we're getting at is trying to remove as much variation as possible.

If putting is a process then variation in process will usually result in unintended results.

Day to day, parts of that process; ball position, position of the eyes, stroke path, face rotation, etc. will naturally vary. We aren't perfect.

But if, through bruce's knowledge we can work to eliminate elements of variation then we give ourselves better chances to make more putts.

I will chase that...I'll provide feedback. Appears you and I struggle much the same.

[bargolf]

bladehunter - your last post describes our system pretty well. Match a defined motor pattern with a putter that is balanced to that pattern. You can change daily or stick with one definition. Random is hard to fix. All we think we have done is provide a timeline to make your decisions. No answers just trying to ask the right questions a the right time.

We think you have to know how you do it before you can do it without thinking about it.

Edited by bargolf, 27 December 2018 - 04:58 PM.

[Golfingfanatic]

This an interesting topic. I, too, have struggled with putting for quite a while. I recently have seen major improvements after making the switch to armlock putting. The wierd thing is - I don’t know why it works - only that it does work for me. For a long time I was overly technical trying to work on the perfect posture, release etc. . Right now I just address the ball, focus on the target and rock the shoulders back and forth. I no longer care if my stance is slightly open closed or square or whether my eyes are exactly over the ball.

[bladehunter]

bargolf, on 27 December 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

bladehunter - your last post describes our system pretty well. Match a defined motor pattern with a putter that is balanced to that pattern. You can change daily or stick with one definition. Random is hard to fix. All we think we have done is provide a timeline to make your decisions. No answers just trying to ask the right questions a the right time.

We think you have to know how you do it before you can do it without thinking about it.

It does make sense to my twisted brain.  


I may have some reading or listening time tomorrow. I’m interested just for more infos sakes even though my putting has been stellar for a couple months.  

For reference I once hit 14 greens in a club champ round and 3 putted 7 of them and made no birdies.  And proximity was great.  I was lagging 8 footers hoping not to 3 putt.  It was a dark time.  And the putter and stroke carousel had to be a large part of it.  I treat it almost as s sacred subject now.  Part voodoo and part spiritual enlightenment.  Hope the incantation lasts. Lol.

[getitdaily]

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

bargolf, on 27 December 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

bladehunter - your last post describes our system pretty well. Match a defined motor pattern with a putter that is balanced to that pattern. You can change daily or stick with one definition. Random is hard to fix. All we think we have done is provide a timeline to make your decisions. No answers just trying to ask the right questions a the right time.

We think you have to know how you do it before you can do it without thinking about it.

It does make sense to my twisted brain.  


I may have some reading or listening time tomorrow. I’m interested just for more infos sakes even though my putting has been stellar for a couple months.  

For reference I once hit 14 greens in a club champ round and 3 putted 7 of them and made no birdies.  And proximity was great.  I was lagging 8 footers hoping not to 3 putt.  It was a dark time.  And the putter and stroke carousel had to be a large part of it.  I treat it almost as s sacred subject now.  Part voodoo and part spiritual enlightenment.  Hope the incantation lasts. Lol.

It would seem that you don't need the knowledge of Bruce's stuff to make a change but to help when your current glory slides just a little. We all know how this game likes to treat us...

[Matt J]

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

bargolf, on 27 December 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

bladehunter - your last post describes our system pretty well. Match a defined motor pattern with a putter that is balanced to that pattern. You can change daily or stick with one definition. Random is hard to fix. All we think we have done is provide a timeline to make your decisions. No answers just trying to ask the right questions a the right time.

We think you have to know how you do it before you can do it without thinking about it.

It does make sense to my twisted brain.  


I may have some reading or listening time tomorrow. I'm interested just for more infos sakes even though my putting has been stellar for a couple months.  

For reference I once hit 14 greens in a club champ round and 3 putted 7 of them and made no birdies.  And proximity was great.  I was lagging 8 footers hoping not to 3 putt.  It was a dark time.  And the putter and stroke carousel had to be a large part of it.  I treat it almost as s sacred subject now.  Part voodoo and part spiritual enlightenment.  Hope the incantation lasts. Lol.

I think a lot of great putters had a low point like this, bladehunter.  Almost like hitting rock bottom, it opens your eyes to the fact that it's not a part of the game that can be simply ignored.  When I first started hitting 10, 12, or 14 greens in a round I would routinely have over 36 putts.  Sometimes as many as 41 or 42.

Good putting is something anyone can accomplish.  Great putting is conjuring magic.

I can see how simply fudging around with a bunch of different stuff and trying to get comfortable works for some people, that was not my story at all.  I had to find basic things that I could count on under pressure each and every putt.  And, now I will go into my "studio" and check on myself if I am surprised by my performance.  Just recently I was standing too far away from the ball and it had migrated to far up in my stance.  If I'm decelerating I tend to hold the release off and push putts, but rather than realize that I need to shorten my stroke, slow the transition and release the face, I will start cheating it up into my stance to give myself a little more time and favor a pull.  Exactly stuff like that is what got me into trouble in that eventually I have the ball in the front of my stance and I'm setup dead shut and simply trying to pull it down the line at the hole.

A lot of what I do these days is geared towards minimizing misses, and yes, I absolutely do have a two way miss and like it that way.  It's amazing how many slightly missed putts will find the hole.

Anyways, I enjoyed the discourse with you guys and am real proud that I was able to turn some of you onto Bruce's magic.  The thing I like the most about what I know of Bruce's system is that it aligns with so much of what I figured out through trial and error.  That tells me there's some plain old truth involved.  And universal truth works for everybody.  I 100% believe it doesn't have to be as hard as we often times make it.

[ThinkingPlus]

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

bargolf, on 27 December 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

bladehunter - your last post describes our system pretty well. Match a defined motor pattern with a putter that is balanced to that pattern. You can change daily or stick with one definition. Random is hard to fix. All we think we have done is provide a timeline to make your decisions. No answers just trying to ask the right questions a the right time.

We think you have to know how you do it before you can do it without thinking about it.

It does make sense to my twisted brain.  


I may have some reading or listening time tomorrow. I'm interested just for more infos sakes even though my putting has been stellar for a couple months.  

For reference I once hit 14 greens in a club champ round and 3 putted 7 of them and made no birdies.  And proximity was great.  I was lagging 8 footers hoping not to 3 putt.  It was a dark time.  And the putter and stroke carousel had to be a large part of it.  I treat it almost as s sacred subject now.  Part voodoo and part spiritual enlightenment.  Hope the incantation lasts. Lol.

BH, you need to quit talking about that round.  One of us is going to read about it one too many times and we are going to catch that disease.   Actually, glad your putting journey arrived at a good place.  Hope it stays that way.

[bladehunter]

ThinkingPlus, on 27 December 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

bargolf, on 27 December 2018 - 04:56 PM, said:

bladehunter - your last post describes our system pretty well. Match a defined motor pattern with a putter that is balanced to that pattern. You can change daily or stick with one definition. Random is hard to fix. All we think we have done is provide a timeline to make your decisions. No answers just trying to ask the right questions a the right time.

We think you have to know how you do it before you can do it without thinking about it.

It does make sense to my twisted brain.  


I may have some reading or listening time tomorrow. I'm interested just for more infos sakes even though my putting has been stellar for a couple months.  

For reference I once hit 14 greens in a club champ round and 3 putted 7 of them and made no birdies.  And proximity was great.  I was lagging 8 footers hoping not to 3 putt.  It was a dark time.  And the putter and stroke carousel had to be a large part of it.  I treat it almost as s sacred subject now.  Part voodoo and part spiritual enlightenment.  Hope the incantation lasts. Lol.

BH, you need to quit talking about that round.  One of us is going to read about it one too many times and we are going to catch that disease.   Actually, glad your putting journey arrived at a good place.  Hope it stays that way.

I know.   Lol. I know. You’re the second person to tell me that today.  And I know it’s true. But that one I’ll remembwr till the day I die.  I lost the tournament by 5 shots.  Easy math right there.  And I haven’t won it yet.  But it made me mentally stronger.  No doubt.

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[Tim Schoch]

Bruce is great. A lot of coaches have cool insights. I putted horrible for a few years, jumping from the 2-ball to the Spider etc.  Until I admitted to myself that I love a soft blade putter.  Got me an Odyssey Pro #1 blade and I am loving it and sinking them.

[NoFancyUsername.]

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

NoFancyUsername., on 27 December 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Only two things to concern yourself with when putting, pick your line, then speed.
Two easy decisions. Technology sometimes destroys logic of man. He can't think anymore.

What happens if you pick.your line, pick your speed, and putt with a heel shafted putter with the ball up in your stance?
What happens if you pick your line, pick your speed, and putt with a face balanced mallet while trying to employ a stroke where you release the toe of the putter?

You're over thinking it.
Once there was only a handful of putters on the market and whatever putter ended up in your hands, it worked, because you made it work.
Heel shafted putter? Face balanced mallet? doesn't matter. That BS has been spun and believed, hence the mind issues with putting.
How a putter looks to ones eye and the weight of it is all that is important.
Science&Technology has fried the brain in a lot of areas, especially golf. Benefits? of course, but not majorly. The manufacturers have brilliant PR people.
If you believe that the heel balance/face balanced putter is affecting your putting...It will.
The mind is a powerful thing, don't allow it to be fooled.

[getitdaily]

NoFancyUsername., on 27 December 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

NoFancyUsername., on 27 December 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Only two things to concern yourself with when putting, pick your line, then speed.
Two easy decisions. Technology sometimes destroys logic of man. He can't think anymore.

What happens if you pick.your line, pick your speed, and putt with a heel shafted putter with the ball up in your stance?
What happens if you pick your line, pick your speed, and putt with a face balanced mallet while trying to employ a stroke where you release the toe of the putter?

You're over thinking it.
Once there was only a handful of putters on the market and whatever putter ended up in your hands, it worked, because you made it work.
Heel shafted putter? Face balanced mallet? doesn't matter. That BS has been spun and believed, hence the mind issues with putting.
How a putter looks to ones eye and the weight of it is all that is important.
Science&Technology has fried the brain in a lot of areas, especially golf. Benefits? of course, but not majorly. The manufacturers have brilliant PR people.
If you believe that the heel balance/face balanced putter is affecting your putting...It will.
The mind is a powerful thing, don't allow it to be fooled.

We should probably not utilize SAM puttlab type systems to help then, huh?

[Hawkeye77]

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 03:00 PM, said:

Hawkeye77, on 27 December 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

NoFancyUsername., on 27 December 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Only two things to concern yourself with when putting, pick your line, then speed.
Two easy decisions. Technology sometimes destroys logic of man. He can't think anymore.

What happens if you pick.your line, pick your speed, and putt with a heel shafted putter with the ball up in your stance?

What happens if you pick your line, pick your speed, and putt with a face balanced mallet while trying to employ a stroke where you release the toe of the putter?

You may miss and figure out how to adjust to the putter and then putt just fine.

Correct. You may miss and then compensate. Then that compensation has to be repeated over and over. Why not go into those putts with compensation needs minimized as much as possible...?

His profile does not recommend a face balanced mallet for me.  I putt better with the face balanced mallet I have now vs. the one I used for a couple of seasons up to about July of 2018, so there is that as well.  Neither are "right" for me according to him.  Both are much more "right" for me than the toe hang style putter I used before that his system would suggest  is what I should be using.  Some other "conventional wisdom" would suggest I putt SBST - it's horrible for me.

I disagree that because I don't fit into his system I'm bringing compensations into play. I putt better with my current putter.

His ideas may very well work for lots of folks, but for me, it is this putter fits "me" not his idea of what "me" is, if that makes sense.

Again, if it works for you do it.

Edited by Hawkeye77, 28 December 2018 - 10:13 AM.

[Swisstrader98]

I’ve had 2 professional putter fitting. One was with Edel and one with a guy in NYC who is viewed as a bit of a putting guru.

The Edel fitting worked great for me initially. Felt crazy confortable over every putt and sunk more than my fair share but sadly, the magic wore off until the point where I was putting just as well with just about anything OTHER than the Edel.

Next up, putting guru who brought me into a lab like facility tweaked stance, eye position, shoulders and stance and then played with a few different putters. Walked out of there excited about what all this would do for me and making putts, but did very little to move the needle.

[bargolf]

Just to clear.
There are 9 Profiles. Probability is very high that you fit one of the 9, regardless of what we recommend. Lots of my clients do not use a recommended putter. The difference is that we know why.

For example Hawkeye might find success with face balanced because that feel helps reduce had action. Even though his Profile would suggest something different.

Edited by bargolf, 28 December 2018 - 03:02 PM.

[Matt J]

bargolf, on 28 December 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

Just to clear.
There are 9 Profiles. Probability is very high that you fit one of the 9, regardless of what we recommend. Lots of my clients do not use a recommended putter. The difference is that we know why.

For example Hawkeye might find success with face balanced because that feel helps reduce had action. Even though his Profile would suggest something different.

Bruce, if you have a guy that's not in a recommended putter... say like you're talking about with Hawkeye, not to say this is the case with him, but he chooses a face balanced mallet despite the fact that he has a strong arc because he tends to want to close the putter with his hands at impact and the mallet keeps his hands out of it more.  Do you typically encourage them to mimic the stroke pattern that is most successful from your research?

I know that I figured out that I like the classic 45 degree of toe hang Anser style plumbers neck putter, blah, blah, blah.  2 degrees up right, 350 gram head with a lighter grip Flatso 2.0, at 34 inches or so.

Once I read your blog post I realized that when I putt my best, I'm trying not to use my hands until I release the putter and then I release it down the line and "chase the ball" rather than just keep rotating my shoulders.  I think that's pretty similar to what you say is ideal.  Now, I don't really know if that is the chicken or the egg (and don't really care) - but I do know it works for me.

[getitdaily]

Blade winning out over fb mallet. I am DEFINITELY a hands forward, right hand dominant putter. Interestingly, lhl with a right hand dominant stroke seems to be my most consistent setup. Really allows me to hood the blade on the way back. Suits my pop like preferred motion too.

Edited by getitdaily, 28 December 2018 - 04:45 PM.

[Tim Schoch]

IMO too many seek and pay for so-called technical corrections and solutions. Golf is a feel game, just like tossing a ball to someone or throwing a Frisbee. You need to know the basics and general physics, but practicing feel for distance, shot shape, and everything else is the game, is the enjoyment. That's why so many excellent players have such different swing fundamentals.

Get fit and measured, it can only help. Then, become your own golf guru. Toss the paper into the waste basket without thinking, chip the ball toward the hole and just putt it in

Edited by Tim Schoch, 28 December 2018 - 06:58 PM.

[Matt J]

Tim Schoch, on 28 December 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

IMO too many seek and pay for so-called technical corrections and solutions. Golf is a feel game, just like tossing a ball to someone or throwing a Frisbee. You need to know the basics and general physics, but practicing feel for distance, shot shape, and everything else is the game, is the enjoyment. That's why so many excellent players have such different swing fundamentals.

Get fit and measured, it can only help. Then, become your own golf guru. Toss the paper into the waste basket without thinking, chip the ball toward the hole and just putt it in

My advice would be that if you do not like the more technical side of golf instruction, then do not click on the links to read threads about technical parts of golf instruction.

The ability, expectations, and preferences for learning styles on this forum varies greatly.

It's great that an intuitive method has gotten you to a place that you're satisfied with your own putting.  That does not mean that's the case for everyone.

I putted and played simply by feel and played to about the same handicap as you do.  I went further in depth into both the full swing and putting and was able to shave strokes.  I will probably continue to delve deeper and deeper into both feel and technical aspects of the game to try and improve further.  To each their own.

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[Hawkeye77]

bargolf, on 28 December 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

Just to clear.
There are 9 Profiles. Probability is very high that you fit one of the 9, regardless of what we recommend. Lots of my clients do not use a recommended putter. The difference is that we know why.

For example Hawkeye might find success with face balanced because that feel helps reduce had action. Even though his Profile would suggest something different.

Fair enough!

[Hawkeye77]

Matt J, on 28 December 2018 - 03:39 PM, said:

bargolf, on 28 December 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

Just to clear.
There are 9 Profiles. Probability is very high that you fit one of the 9, regardless of what we recommend. Lots of my clients do not use a recommended putter. The difference is that we know why.

For example Hawkeye might find success with face balanced because that feel helps reduce had action. Even though his Profile would suggest something different.

Bruce, if you have a guy that's not in a recommended putter... say like you're talking about with Hawkeye, not to say this is the case with him, but he chooses a face balanced mallet despite the fact that he has a strong arc because he tends to want to close the putter with his hands at impact and the mallet keeps his hands out of it more.  Do you typically encourage them to mimic the stroke pattern that is most successful from your research?

I know that I figured out that I like the classic 45 degree of toe hang Anser style plumbers neck putter, blah, blah, blah.  2 degrees up right, 350 gram head with a lighter grip Flatso 2.0, at 34 inches or so.

Once I read your blog post I realized that when I putt my best, I'm trying not to use my hands until I release the putter and then I release it down the line and "chase the ball" rather than just keep rotating my shoulders.  I think that's pretty similar to what you say is ideal.  Now, I don't really know if that is the chicken or the egg (and don't really care) - but I do know it works for me.

Interesting and that may be the case, never thought of that.

[getitdaily]

Matt J, on 28 December 2018 - 07:56 PM, said:

Tim Schoch, on 28 December 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

IMO too many seek and pay for so-called technical corrections and solutions. Golf is a feel game, just like tossing a ball to someone or throwing a Frisbee. You need to know the basics and general physics, but practicing feel for distance, shot shape, and everything else is the game, is the enjoyment. That's why so many excellent players have such different swing fundamentals.

Get fit and measured, it can only help. Then, become your own golf guru. Toss the paper into the waste basket without thinking, chip the ball toward the hole and just putt it in

My advice would be that if you do not like the more technical side of golf instruction, then do not click on the links to read threads about technical parts of golf instruction.

The ability, expectations, and preferences for learning styles on this forum varies greatly.

It's great that an intuitive method has gotten you to a place that you're satisfied with your own putting.  That does not mean that's the case for everyone.

I putted and played simply by feel and played to about the same handicap as you do.  I went further in depth into both the full swing and putting and was able to shave strokes.  I will probably continue to delve deeper and deeper into both feel and technical aspects of the game to try and improve further.  To each their own.

Well said. If I didn't understand the technical then I'd forever be chasing a feeling. For full swing, I now know the few technical things I need to watch out for when things get a bit squirrelly.

I don't know those same technical details about the putting stroke. For full swing, I am only technical around 2 thoughts during the swing.

My entire purpose around this thread (well, really around Bruce's stuff) is to find "my stroke" and then find the few things that I have to watch out for when things get squirrelly.

I think a big step was made today, finding that I'm right hand dominant and prefer lhl.

Now to play with ball.position and posture...

[A.Princey]

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

It’s all in your head.  If your stroke is repeatable it’s all mental.

What you have to do is decide to hit putts aggressively and then not care what happens.  Be confident you’ll bang in the comeback.  And sometimes you’ll miss that one too. Laugh at the 3 putt and go to the next hole .  In short amount of time 3 putts will go nearly all away and birdies will drop.  
It’s not about Sam lab or fittings or anything else. Use the putter you align the best and that rolls to where you’re aligned.  Past that it does not matter if it’s face balanced , flowneck , plumbers neck etc.

If you read any of rearick's stuff then you'll understand why I disagree with a lot of your post.

Agree that my putting is mostly in my head. But that's exacerbated by not having controllable variables under control.

I’m not posting to argue. I of all people know that everyone is different.  But I’m fresh off a 3 year run of the worst putting compared to ball striking on earth.   And the reason was the over analyzAtion of all variables just as you describe.  All of that is what’s in your head. Instead of walking up and lining up and stroking  it into the hole.  

Until you get to a place where you feel like the putter itself doesn’t matter , you’ll never putt well.

Agree completely. For me, that means understanding what works and what doesnt. Trial and lots of error over the last year hasn't helped.

I have a technical analysis paralysis going on. I get to the course and find what stroke I'm going to use based on what feels good that morning. I may go conventional...may go lhl. I may switch it up. I've had about 6 putters this year. Way too much crap in my head that prevents me from doing what you said "see it, line it up, stroke it". I feel I'm on my way to clearing that up just from a couple hours of reading bruce's stuff, some of the blog posts 3 or 4 times.

There's simplification coming, and that gives me hope that more putts will go in. Just yesterday I hit 12 greens with 2 near misses (less than 2 feet off the green, on the fringe). Three 3 putts. Shot 74. I made 1 putt outside 10 feet. I missed 2 putts inside 10 feet. 34 total putts. That's been the story of my year. Lots of greens and lots of putts.

My putting "feels" are all over the place though. Going to put a stop to that.

Any sort of huge changes you've made to your stroke/setup/putter should be abandoned. Think of your best putting rounds in the last 2 years and start there, with everything from equipment to methods. I have done this and the results are fantastic. Slight tweaks on the "centerline" standard of my previous SUSTAINED success has really zeroed in on the key factors that made it a success in the first place.

For example, my putter weight and length used to be 340g and 34" for a very long time, but I found 335g and 33.5" to be ideal now. I went on a tinkering adventure much like yourself and was using 350-370 at 32.5" with serious inconsistencies.  Grips as well, I was a longtime user of Pingman styles but found some early success with Superstroke varieties. However, I eventually lost all feel and went crawling back to a pencil style grip once more. Again, I went back to tried and true baselines from the past, and a level of ease and comfort quickly returned. There's more to it than just equipment changes for me, but this was a starting point.

Try to remember a time when you felt most confident with a putter in your hands, hopefully you still have that same exact putter and can get to work!

Edited by A.Princey, 29 December 2018 - 12:47 AM.

[Matt J]

I hope Bruce chimes in and answers my question about whether he encourages clients to match their stroke to the putter, but also I noticed and am curious what his thoughts are on being trail hand dominant and preferring LHL as a righty?

I use the fatter grip (and a very compact grip) to keep my shoulders more level and a lot of folks think that's the real point behind LHL (Mr. Palmer included I've heard).

So, are you fighting your trail hand dominance with the cross handed grip? Are you using it from all distances? I think some of the tour pros even switch back to RHL for lag putts.... food for thought.

[getitdaily]

Matt J, on 29 December 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

I hope Bruce chimes in and answers my question about whether he encourages clients to match their stroke to the putter, but also I noticed and am curious what his thoughts are on being trail hand dominant and preferring LHL as a righty?

I use the fatter grip (and a very compact grip) to keep my shoulders more level and a lot of folks think that's the real point behind LHL (Mr. Palmer included I've heard).

So, are you fighting your trail hand dominance with the cross handed grip? Are you using it from all distances? I think some of the tour pros even switch back to RHL for lag putts.... food for thought.

Lhl has always been good for me because it levels my shoulders. That helps me put a slightly downward hit on the putt. If I don't really watch it then my lead shoulder will come up and out with conventional. That doesn't happen with lhl. At the same time, I prefer a bit of release with the putter. I'm better with just a bit of wrist action in the stroke. My shoulders tend to rock back to open which pulls the path left. I think it's actually my lower body opening but I've fought that for so long that I've capitulated that it'll always be a problem.

What I found with the lhl and right hand dominant stroke (with hands ahead of the ball, think Alex noren) is that I can easily allow the putter to work up slightly in the backswing, hood the face, and then release the toe with a path that isn't left. I think a big key was jacking around with blade putters recently. I've been using all face balanced putter since I left the Newport beach that I used for 13 years.

So, I think my profile is slightly inside to square to slightly inside, the profile bruce recommends to be used with an almost face balanced mallet. My 2w is good so far but it has about 45* toe hang. Kind of now really makes me.intrigued about the plumber's neck 2ball fang I'm having made.

Edited by getitdaily, 29 December 2018 - 08:05 AM.

[getitdaily]

A.Princey, on 29 December 2018 - 12:24 AM, said:

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 11:41 AM, said:

getitdaily, on 27 December 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

bladehunter, on 27 December 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

It’s all in your head.  If your stroke is repeatable it’s all mental.

What you have to do is decide to hit putts aggressively and then not care what happens.  Be confident you’ll bang in the comeback.  And sometimes you’ll miss that one too. Laugh at the 3 putt and go to the next hole .  In short amount of time 3 putts will go nearly all away and birdies will drop.  
It’s not about Sam lab or fittings or anything else. Use the putter you align the best and that rolls to where you’re aligned.  Past that it does not matter if it’s face balanced , flowneck , plumbers neck etc.

If you read any of rearick's stuff then you'll understand why I disagree with a lot of your post.

Agree that my putting is mostly in my head. But that's exacerbated by not having controllable variables under control.

I’m not posting to argue. I of all people know that everyone is different.  But I’m fresh off a 3 year run of the worst putting compared to ball striking on earth.   And the reason was the over analyzAtion of all variables just as you describe.  All of that is what’s in your head. Instead of walking up and lining up and stroking  it into the hole.  

Until you get to a place where you feel like the putter itself doesn’t matter , you’ll never putt well.

Agree completely. For me, that means understanding what works and what doesnt. Trial and lots of error over the last year hasn't helped.

I have a technical analysis paralysis going on. I get to the course and find what stroke I'm going to use based on what feels good that morning. I may go conventional...may go lhl. I may switch it up. I've had about 6 putters this year. Way too much crap in my head that prevents me from doing what you said "see it, line it up, stroke it". I feel I'm on my way to clearing that up just from a couple hours of reading bruce's stuff, some of the blog posts 3 or 4 times.

There's simplification coming, and that gives me hope that more putts will go in. Just yesterday I hit 12 greens with 2 near misses (less than 2 feet off the green, on the fringe). Three 3 putts. Shot 74. I made 1 putt outside 10 feet. I missed 2 putts inside 10 feet. 34 total putts. That's been the story of my year. Lots of greens and lots of putts.

My putting "feels" are all over the place though. Going to put a stop to that.

Any sort of huge changes you've made to your stroke/setup/putter should be abandoned. Think of your best putting rounds in the last 2 years and start there, with everything from equipment to methods. I have done this and the results are fantastic. Slight tweaks on the "centerline" standard of my previous SUSTAINED success has really zeroed in on the key factors that made it a success in the first place.

For example, my putter weight and length used to be 340g and 34" for a very long time, but I found 335g and 33.5" to be ideal now. I went on a tinkering adventure much like yourself and was using 350-370 at 32.5" with serious inconsistencies.  Grips as well, I was a longtime user of Pingman styles but found some early success with Superstroke varieties. However, I eventually lost all feel and went crawling back to a pencil style grip once more. Again, I went back to tried and true baselines from the past, and a level of ease and comfort quickly returned. There's more to it than just equipment changes for me, but this was a starting point.

Try to remember a time when you felt most confident with a putter in your hands, hopefully you still have that same exact putter and can get to work!

Thanks, but no. You missed the point that I have to know why my putting stroke does what it does so I can self diagnose issues with it...

Just like I do with my full swing.

[Matt J]

getitdaily, on 29 December 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

Matt J, on 29 December 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

I hope Bruce chimes in and answers my question about whether he encourages clients to match their stroke to the putter, but also I noticed and am curious what his thoughts are on being trail hand dominant and preferring LHL as a righty?

I use the fatter grip (and a very compact grip) to keep my shoulders more level and a lot of folks think that's the real point behind LHL (Mr. Palmer included I've heard).

So, are you fighting your trail hand dominance with the cross handed grip? Are you using it from all distances? I think some of the tour pros even switch back to RHL for lag putts.... food for thought.

Lhl has always been good for me because it levels my shoulders. That helps me put a slightly downward hit on the putt. If I don't really watch it then my lead shoulder will come up and out with conventional. That doesn't happen with lhl. At the same time, I prefer a bit of release with the putter. I'm better with just a bit of wrist action in the stroke. My shoulders tend to rock back to open which pulls the path left. I think it's actually my lower body opening but I've fought that for so long that I've capitulated that it'll always be a problem.

What I found with the lhl and right hand dominant stroke (with hands ahead of the ball, think Alex noren) is that I can easily allow the putter to work up slightly in the backswing, hood the face, and then release the toe with a path that isn't left. I think a big key was jacking around with blade putters recently. I've been using all face balanced putter since I left the Newport beach that I used for 13 years.

So, I think my profile is slightly inside to square to slightly inside, the profile bruce recommends to be used with an almost face balanced mallet. My 2w is good so far but it has about 45* toe hang. Kind of now really makes me.intrigued about the plumber's neck 2ball fang I'm having made.

That's funny, we're kind of similar, but we fix it in different ways.  I use the Flatso 2.0 so that I can use a conventional grip but have my hands very close together to keep my shoulders level (it's also very light at 50 grams which makes the swing weight higher).  I am left hand dominant as a lefty, but I think of it as something I have to accentuate because most lefties are a bit ambidextrous from learning so much stuff right-handed from right-handed people.  I tend to let my right work to much and then I won't release the head and push putts.

I'm actually getting a new custom putter in the mail this week that will have slight toe hang... the CAD designs had it about half way between 45 degrees and face balanced - 20 to 25 degrees.  I'm hoping I can start releasing it even harder to chase it down the line without getting a pull.  We'll see....

I don't talk about it much, but for nearly a year I was tinkering with all kinds of putter related things at home and was actually getting more and more frustrated because I was confused.  Finding a few "absolutes" - maybe only for myself (although reading through Bruce's stuff I don't think so) - that's what pushed me over the mountain and down the fun side.  Now, I look at every putt as an opportunity to make it.  I consider every EVERY EVERY!!! single putt missed until it hits the bottom of the cup and the challenge is to hear how often I can hear that magical sound.  Went from a guy my playing partners laughed at in the 19th hole with 41 or 42 putts sometimes to a guy they ask my advice about their putting.  26 or 27 putts every now and again.  Great feeling!

Sometimes I get the wedge firing from around the green and I feel like as long as I don't lose balls off the tee I can't shoot much worse than mid-seventies.  That is the kind of golf I want to play for the rest of my life.

Edited by Matt J, 29 December 2018 - 11:31 AM.

[getitdaily]

Matt J, on 29 December 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

getitdaily, on 29 December 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

Matt J, on 29 December 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

I hope Bruce chimes in and answers my question about whether he encourages clients to match their stroke to the putter, but also I noticed and am curious what his thoughts are on being trail hand dominant and preferring LHL as a righty?

I use the fatter grip (and a very compact grip) to keep my shoulders more level and a lot of folks think that's the real point behind LHL (Mr. Palmer included I've heard).

So, are you fighting your trail hand dominance with the cross handed grip? Are you using it from all distances? I think some of the tour pros even switch back to RHL for lag putts.... food for thought.

Lhl has always been good for me because it levels my shoulders. That helps me put a slightly downward hit on the putt. If I don't really watch it then my lead shoulder will come up and out with conventional. That doesn't happen with lhl. At the same time, I prefer a bit of release with the putter. I'm better with just a bit of wrist action in the stroke. My shoulders tend to rock back to open which pulls the path left. I think it's actually my lower body opening but I've fought that for so long that I've capitulated that it'll always be a problem.

What I found with the lhl and right hand dominant stroke (with hands ahead of the ball, think Alex noren) is that I can easily allow the putter to work up slightly in the backswing, hood the face, and then release the toe with a path that isn't left. I think a big key was jacking around with blade putters recently. I've been using all face balanced putter since I left the Newport beach that I used for 13 years.

So, I think my profile is slightly inside to square to slightly inside, the profile bruce recommends to be used with an almost face balanced mallet. My 2w is good so far but it has about 45* toe hang. Kind of now really makes me.intrigued about the plumber's neck 2ball fang I'm having made.

That's funny, we're kind of similar, but we fix it in different ways.  I use the Flatso 2.0 so that I can use a conventional grip but have my hands very close together to keep my shoulders level (it's also very light at 50 grams which makes the swing weight higher).  I am left hand dominant as a lefty, but I think of it as something I have to accentuate because most lefties are a bit ambidextrous from learning so much stuff right-handed from right-handed people.  I tend to let my right work to much and then I won't release the head and push putts.

I'm actually getting a new custom putter in the mail this week that will have slight toe hang... the CAD designs had it about half way between 45 degrees and face balanced - 20 to 25 degrees.  I'm hoping I can start releasing it even harder to chase it down the line without getting a pull.  We'll see....

I don't talk about it much, but for nearly a year I was tinkering with all kinds of putter related things at home and was actually getting more and more frustrated because I was confused.  Finding a few "absolutes" - maybe only for myself (although reading through Bruce's stuff I don't think so) - that's what pushed me over the mountain and down the fun side.  Now, I look at every putt as an opportunity to make it.  I consider every EVERY EVERY!!! single putt missed until it hits the bottom of the cup and the challenge is to hear how often I can hear that magical sound.  Went from a guy my playing partners laughed at in the 19th hole with 41 or 42 putts sometimes to a guy they ask my advice about their putting.  26 or 27 putts every now and again.  Great feeling!

Sometimes I get the wedge firing from around the green and I feel like as long as I don't lose balls off the tee I can't shoot much worse than mid-seventies.  That is the kind of golf I want to play for the rest of my life.

Man, I'd quit if I ever had successive rounds of 40+ putts. I'm annoyed by the 32-34 I normally dole out.

I'd like to get to 28-30 per round.

What my revelation from yesterday revealed is a lot of why I've been so frustrated lately. Being a right hand dominant putter, putting with a face balanced mallet, it makes sense from bruce's blogs why I've been so inconsistent.  My high moi mallet doesn't want to release the toe. So I started toying with a left hand dominant stroke with mixed results at best. Bruce notes that, generally, you don't want a toe release stroke with a face balanced putter...

The tyne h came close but it was so heavy. Bruce also noted that the heavier the putter gets, the more you want a shoulder dominated stroke. I've already noted that my shoulders tend to open and I pull putts. So I started manipulating the putter with my hands.

So yesterday was rather big...I know my stroke preferences and know what putters to look for...still work to do, but yesterday was big.

[bargolf]

Matt J, on 29 December 2018 - 03:31 AM, said:

I hope Bruce chimes in and answers my question about whether he encourages clients to match their stroke to the putter, but also I noticed and am curious what his thoughts are on being trail hand dominant and preferring LHL as a righty?

I use the fatter grip (and a very compact grip) to keep my shoulders more level and a lot of folks think that's the real point behind LHL (Mr. Palmer included I've heard).

So, are you fighting your trail hand dominance with the cross handed grip? Are you using it from all distances? I think some of the tour pros even switch back to RHL for lag putts.... food for thought.

I think the putter forces the adjustment. For example a high rotation or bigger arc set up, (taller and off the ball) using a face balanced putter, will adjust their movement pattern to fit the putter. (watch Adam Scott with a short face balanced mallet) They might change to a movement pattern where the arms lead and the shoulders react. Allowing the arms to swing on a vertical plane rather than shoulders rotating on a flatter plane. But either way the possible inconsistency we see when the putter doesn't match technique usually forces a change or a call to me.

A little in self defense. I don't claim to be better at helping a player than someone who might want to learn for themselves. What I have found is that by seeking my help they become more efficient in their self analysis and shorten the learning curve by not going off on a tangent that doesn't match what they do best. Most of my clients don't have time to work it out for themselves. The longer it takes the less they earn.

Here is our timeline for the DIYers.
1.Find the distance from the ball and alignment that allows you the most accurate perception of the putt. Nothing works if you don't do this. FORCED POSITIONS BY RECOMMENDATION NEVER WORKS.
2. Find a source of motion and sequence of movement that matches the set up.
3. Find the fit and design of a putter to match your stroke Profile. You don't want to have to continually react to a miss caused by a reaction to your putter.

Finally - what is the benefit of level shoulders?

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