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Is Bent Grass Becoming Obsolete?


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#31 whynotgolf

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 09:50 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 02 December 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

...at least south of the Mason-Dixon line

Let me preface by stating that being from NJ I love bent greens and generally prefer them over other grasses. Still, I've really been impressed with the improvements/advancements in the newer strains of Bermuda in the past 10 years.

I'm in the process of moving to FL from NJ, staying for about 1 week in Greenville, SC before heading down to South FL.  Played Furman U course today and the Bermuda greens (newer strain) were exceptional despite nearly 2 inches of rain overnight. I've also played on some surprisingly fast and smooth surfaces at a number of clubs in FL including Tequesta CC, Fox Club, and Medalist.  All stimped faster than 12 with no real grain to worry about.  

I'm told Bermuda is generally less expensive than Bent, but I'm not an expert. Either way, agronomy has come a long way since I started playing in the early 90s and i would not be surprised to see places like Augusta National eventually switch over to these newer strains of Bermuda.

Thoughts?

While I still think a pure bentgrass green is the best putting surface, but the vast majority of the local tracks I play in metro ATL are migrating to these hybrid Bermuda greens. The change in some cases has been incredibly better. One such case is  my home course. It's little dinky semi-private with a quirky layout thru a residential neighborhood. The new greens totally changed the course and made it a lot easier to overlook the layout. With bent greens we had maybe 4 month of ideal conditions and 3 months the heat and traffic made them less than desirable.


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#32 BNGL

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:39 AM

View PostNorth Texas, on 06 December 2018 - 09:31 AM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 06 December 2018 - 08:53 AM, said:

View Postcaniac6, on 05 December 2018 - 09:06 PM, said:

The course where I play has bent greens, and I'm going to play tomorrow morning. The course up the street has Bermuda greens, and they covered their greens today in anticipation of a cold night. It's going to be cold in the AM, but I walk and bundle up, so it will be tolerable, but I couldn't play if we had Bermuda.

While I understand your sentiments, I’d just like to point out that certain species don’t necessarily require tarps. Golfers have just generally accepted that tarps are required, I go both ways on it. Every winter is different, sometimes you come out of it fine other times you have major problems and both times you might have used tarps. There’s plenty of research on both sides of tarps debate. But most of the decision making rests on a couple factors;

budget, tarps can be ridiculously expensive figure 40k and that would last 5 years tops 3 years reasonably (they tear easily). Factor an additional 20k for extra labor to put them out and remove them, fix them etc.

Surrounding environment, if I have a green that sits in a bowl I would have to trench the hell out of the green surrounds to ensure that water moved away from the greens.

But I haven’t ever had to tarp greens, so take that with a grain of salt, but from what I know and have read about...idk just rambling I guess.

Interesting. What species of bermuda don't have to be covered?

Any of them, re reading my first post, I over generalized and simplified what I meant to say. If I knew I had several months of sustained winter weather with no way possible for anyone to remove the snow and use the course, then yes I’d definitely utilize tarps. But if it’s one night or two nights that are excessively cold, then I wouldn’t even bother. Reason being is the soil temps are what I’m focused on, yes frost is bad and necessitates a delay in play. But as long as my soil temps are staying warmer than the air, you’re going to be fine.

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#33 PirateLion85

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 11:51 AM

The only facilities in the southeast that need to have bentgrass greens are either private clubs that can afford it, or mountain courses where it's cool enough in summers to take it. Plan for your busy season, and the clubs that have converted to Bermuda are doing far better locally than those that haven't, save for those with the resources to maintain it.
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#34 doubledub

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:14 AM

Curious to get BNGL's input on what I've heard/my own poor research. I'm out in West Texas and basically every course in the general vicinity has bent greens including all the public tracks. From what I understand it is the humidity and not the heat that makes bent so hard to manage in other parts of Texas and the South. I also play down at Escondido outside of Austin quite a bit and I have gotten where I actually prefer their champions bermuda greens (even when dormant) to pretty much any bent greens. It seems much easier to get bermuda to play firm vs bent, especially in the summer. When the greens have just a little firmness it requires so much more thought vs pure point and shoot with soft bent greens. I've only seen one club out here (amarillo CC) be able to keep any firmness to their bent greens for everyday play in the summer. Unfortunately our main tournament season is April-October and our greens play very soft most of that time. Do you think firm bent could be maintained in a dry climate with cool nights? Do you think the new bermudas would be very hard to manage during our winters even if we were aggressive with tarps and insulated covers? I've heard of winterkill issues in Dallas but I'm not sure if that is just because they didn't get covers on or if it can get cold enough to kill even with covers.

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#35 mallrat

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 07:44 PM

I can address a little of that, both of our courses have bent greens and play fairly firm and fast enough for our members. We keep them between an 10.5 and 12 as that is what our members like and is fair to the general public on the public course. When we get above a 12 it gets too much for most of the higher handicaps and with a slope of 144 (I believe) the course is difficult enough. We get them up to a 13 for the member tournaments and all of these speeds are taken just after hand watering in the morning. They donít need to be over managed but we do have a healthy spray program and they have figured out a certain chemical that sprayed stronger than recommended keeps the Poa away.

Our climate is warm to hot summers with mostly cooler nights, mid to high 90ís with a couple weeks in the 100ís. We have a pretty aggressive top dressing program (at least every 3rd week but generally every other) and most of our greens are very healthy, some have some spotty mold and that is generally a result of members not fixing their ball marks, from what we have seen and can tell.


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#36 BNGL

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:16 PM

View Postdoubledub, on 07 December 2018 - 10:14 AM, said:

Curious to get BNGL's input on what I've heard/my own poor research. I'm out in West Texas and basically every course in the general vicinity has bent greens including all the public tracks. From what I understand it is the humidity and not the heat that makes bent so hard to manage in other parts of Texas and the South. I also play down at Escondido outside of Austin quite a bit and I have gotten where I actually prefer their champions bermuda greens (even when dormant) to pretty much any bent greens. It seems much easier to get bermuda to play firm vs bent, especially in the summer. When the greens have just a little firmness it requires so much more thought vs pure point and shoot with soft bent greens. I've only seen one club out here (amarillo CC) be able to keep any firmness to their bent greens for everyday play in the summer. Unfortunately our main tournament season is April-October and our greens play very soft most of that time. Do you think firm bent could be maintained in a dry climate with cool nights? Do you think the new bermudas would be very hard to manage during our winters even if we were aggressive with tarps and insulated covers? I've heard of winterkill issues in Dallas but I'm not sure if that is just because they didn't get covers on or if it can get cold enough to kill even with covers.

Lot to cover there...

The challenge with bent in transition areas and even in the south isn’t growing it in hot humid weather...it’s growing it in hot humid weather while mowing it at .125 inches while it’s subjected to constant foot traffic. Those heights and traffic aren’t natural at all. Cool season bent originated in the cooler European climates, as opposed to your warm season grasses that came from Africa.

Temperatures play a role but not where you think. With bent you want to have temps of about 60-75 degrees, and 50-65 in the soil(those are optimum). But research has proven that that cooler temps in the root zone provide optimum shoot health and growth of the plant on the surface (ANGC Subair cools the roots of the plant).

In regards to you query about humidity, you’re right, plants regulate their temperature by a process called transpiration. Transpiration is the evaporation of water through microscopic pores on the leafs surface, called stomata, that evaporation fictions very similarly to humans when we sweat. This is a tricky process, because there must exist a proper gradient between the boundary layer(plants surface) and the surrounding atmosphere. The boundary layers relative humidity is nearly always 100 percent, so as long as the surrounding atmospheric conditions are lower the plant can evaporate water effectively (the lower the better because that results in a steeper gradient). But if the humidity is high you have no grade and the plant cannot evaporate water effectively. That process right there is the reason why you can grow bent in Arizona (hot but drier) but struggle in Florida (hot and wet).

Your firmness comes from cultural practices, very little to do with the type of grass. Understand the relationship between firmness and turf heath, as you get firmer the turf losses it’s ability to exchange gases...basically the plant suffocates. That firmness you feel in summer on the Bermuda greens, is because it’s better able to handle the summertime stresses. When summertime stress occurs, or anything that stresses the turf first thing you do is start to raise the height of cut, increase water, basically boost plant health give it a chance.

Absolutely I think bent could be effective in a dry climate with cool nights.

Yes absolutely Bermuda could be effective, as would any cultivar, with the proper measures taken.

Winter kill, snow mold, etc are hit or miss I think. (Never has to deal with it luckily) from what I have read, even if you do everything right you can still get whacked...conversely some courses might not do anything and be fine. I don’t think you’ll really know until spring time. But there are steps you can take to minimize risk. Proper fertilizing and chemical applications in the fall leading into winter, and get carbs out asap so the plant can store it and have something to use when it wakes up.

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#37 GTgolf

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:15 AM

My club has bent greens, and I donít think I could ever be a member of a Bermuda green facility. Hate them actually.

Bent is so pure. When properly cared for, there shouldnít be much problem keeping them healthy in the summer months.

Our super has done an excellent job here in Atlanta

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#38 firstbatch

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 09:01 AM

Independence GC in the Richmond VA area is a good case study of Champion Bermuda greens.  They made the switch seems like 6-7 years ago. Fantastic playing surface in season and plays well while dormant.  At the time it was the furthest north to plant it.  Still may be.   First winter some tarps partially blew off and some greens had turf kill on outside.  Replant went quick next season.     This past winter in mid Atlantic being crazy and the Indy greens didn’t survive  tuff winter and the course was shut for replant during the spring and summer.  Ironic that the summer of ‘16 was a burner and there were several bent grass clubs that had to shut down foot traffic for awhile and Indy was rockin.
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#39 bladehunter

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:16 PM

First off OP. Wish Iíd known you were in town ( Iím in spartanburg) Iíd have had you over to play with us one afternoon.  I have some good Bermuda for you to sample over this way.  


I think maintenance cost is the reason. Like several said.  Around 1996-1999ish I worked at a private 36 hole course in the maintenance crew.  Iíve done it all from sand pro to gang mowing rough.  And everything in between.  

That course had penncross bent , and during the summer afternoons I had the pleasure of being one of the syringe guys.  I literally drove around all afternoon looking for hotspots and dragging hose and watering to keep them alive.   Or at least thatís my description. I donít pretend to be an expert. But a lot of effort went into just keeping those greens alive in the above 90 degree heat and humidity.  You could  see the color and shine on high and hot spots .  

Then There was the time an ice storm hit unannounced and we hadnít covered the greens.  They rented all the torpedo heaters in town and generators to run them.  We sat them up and blew heat across the greens to thaw them out.  For 2 days on 36 holes. And lost parts of 7 greens anyway.  

Now was that because of poor practices ?  I have no clue. I just did what I was told.  But I do know from being a member for 4 years at a club with Bermuda 30 min from the club with bent that they have had to do none of that.  Iíve never seen a syringe guy on any green and they only cover the greens for snow or ice storms.  Not air temp.

Edited by bladehunter, 08 December 2018 - 10:18 PM.

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#40 CDLgolf

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 11:56 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 December 2018 - 10:16 PM, said:

First off OP. Wish I'd known you were in town ( I'm in spartanburg) I'd have had you over to play with us one afternoon.  I have some good Bermuda for you to sample over this way.  


I think maintenance cost is the reason. Like several said.  Around 1996-1999ish I worked at a private 36 hole course in the maintenance crew.  I've done it all from sand pro to gang mowing rough.  And everything in between.  

That course had penncross bent , and during the summer afternoons I had the pleasure of being one of the syringe guys.  I literally drove around all afternoon looking for hotspots and dragging hose and watering to keep them alive.   Or at least that's my description. I don't pretend to be an expert. But a lot of effort went into just keeping those greens alive in the above 90 degree heat and humidity.  You could  see the color and shine on high and hot spots .  

Then There was the time an ice storm hit unannounced and we hadn't covered the greens.  They rented all the torpedo heaters in town and generators to run them.  We sat them up and blew heat across the greens to thaw them out.  For 2 days on 36 holes. And lost parts of 7 greens anyway.  

Now was that because of poor practices ?  I have no clue. I just did what I was told.  But I do know from being a member for 4 years at a club with Bermuda 30 min from the club with bent that they have had to do none of that.  I've never seen a syringe guy on any green and they only cover the greens for snow or ice storms.  Not air temp.


Our area is the worst part of the country for growing grass. Too cold for warm season grass and too hot for cool season grass.
Over here in Charlotte several courses with burmuda grass lost their greens last winter and one course had to close for 6 months to re seed, sprig and sod. They lost most greens and fairways.

On the other hand greens that are bent grass are a mess by September because of the amount of water it takes to keep them alive through out the hot summer months. The greens that take short iron shots just get pounded because of how soft they are.

Overall Id say the burmuda or hybrids do much better than the bent grass does.

Edited by CDLgolf, 09 December 2018 - 05:46 PM.

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#41 Tiemco

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM

Although it is still pretty new it’s possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.
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#42 BNGL

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 04:06 PM

View PostTiemco, on 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Although it is still pretty new it’s possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.

100 percent true. If DALZ 1308 was a stock I’d be buying all that I could. It has superior roll characteristics with minimum inputs, which is great for clubs that can not afford to maintain premium year round conditions.
Zoysia was always a great option on tees and fairways, but not on greens because it produced an inconsistent roll or couldn’t get fast tournament greens (11 plus) consistently. This new strand has in testing, solved those problem.

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#43 ArtMBgolf

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 12:07 AM

The problems with hybrid bermuda grass greens in the Carolinas this past spring, were due to a cold winter, a warmup thaw, then deep freezing again.    

Most of the Myrtle Beach courses that installed new greens this summer used Sunday Hybrid, possibly because it seemed to hold up well at the few
courses with it.     Most of these upgraded courses already needed new greens to replace old bermuda or a failed hybrid they had.
Courses that already had good hybrid greens, patched bad spots.    The few courses with covers had no problems.  

I think southern courses with good bent greens will continue as long as they are good, but when it's time to upgrade they will choose a hybrid.
The level of course and location will always be a factor.

Two years ago, Crow Creek in MB replaced bent with a new bent called V8, that is supposed to take the heat.   I don't know yet if they can take the heat.        

Well maintained hybrid greens putt as good as bent, but they seem to break less as the ball dies at the cup.

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#44 doubledub

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 02:59 PM

I really feel for the clubs/supers in places like Dallas and the Carolinas where there is really no clear direction to go. You can lose bent in the summer and lose bermuda in the winter. Also I have heard there is often a argument at clubs between the younger guys who would like really good greens in the summer voting for bermuda and older guys that travel to cooler climates during the summer who prefer bent because they think it will be better fall-winter-spring when they play the most golf. We are really fortunate to be able to have good bent greens with very low risk of serious damage due to factors out of our control.

I would like to putt on a green with one of the new zoysia strains mentioned earlier. Sounds like that could be a good solution. Wonder how zoysia greens will play when dormant? I'm still shocked at how good the new bermuda hybrids are when dormant when a course has resources to take good care of them.

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#45 augustgolf

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:18 PM

All good stuff here, and BNGL's take on things I will accept as pretty much gospel.

And, zoysia hybrids will be coming in big waves real soon.

Something that I have yet to encounter are good paspalum greens, and I wonder how they hold up with the cold, as I know they do pretty well with heat.

With water availability and usage cost becoming more important than ever, paspalum will be growing ever larger in discussions.

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#46 caniac6

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 03:22 PM

Our super would love to convert to Bermuda. I've talked with him about the new Zoysias, and he agrees that they might be better for our area, but he doesn't want to be a trail blazer. This was the thinking with Bermuda when courses first started to switch. After last winter, I'd say there was still some doubt about Bermuda in the Piedmont.

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#47 North Texas

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:08 PM

View PostBNGL, on 09 December 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

View PostTiemco, on 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Although it is still pretty new it’s possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.

100 percent true. If DALZ 1308 was a stock I’d be buying all that I could. It has superior roll characteristics with minimum inputs, which is great for clubs that can not afford to maintain premium year round conditions.
Zoysia was always a great option on tees and fairways, but not on greens because it produced an inconsistent roll or couldn’t get fast tournament greens (11 plus) consistently. This new strand has in testing, solved those problem.

We have bent greens that we will be replacing sometime in the next few years. Meanwhile, our practice area has 3 greens that our super is testing 3 different grasses on. Two are some strain of bent and one is the DALZ 1308 Zoysia.

BNGL, do you happen to know if the 1308 has to be covered during the winter like bermuda or not?

Edited by North Texas, 10 December 2018 - 04:08 PM.


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#48 NikeNerd

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:13 PM

In NC you must have covers if you want your greens to come out of dormancy healthy year in and year out. This last winter was a real pain. Even Sedgefield (host of Wyndham Championship) had significant turf loss that they had to repair during the summer. I assume they use covers but it still requires good moisture management, if they get really cold and dry you can guarantee there will be spots that don't wake up. I can't see any reason why a public course would want bentgrass in Charlotte and surrounding areas. You simply won't be able to provide a fast, true surface when it really counts (summer!). Dormant bermuda greens putt great and they tend to be too fast not too slow during the colder months. High end private courses can do bentgrass if they have the budget, but if you have the budget to do bentgrass the right way you might as well do bermuda because the surface is awesome.

I just got back from a stay at Mid Pines and Pine Needles. Pine Needles recently converted to Mini Verde and Mid Pines did the same a few years ago. They had plenty of pace to them and they didn't look like they had been mown in days, another benefit.

Augusta will not switch to bent because perfect bent beats perfect bermuda and Augusta has the tournament set up at the perfect time of year and nearly bottomless budget to have perfect conditions. They are closed during the summer and the greens aren't mown at greens height during this period. The goal is to get them through the summer disease free and alive.
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#49 BNGL

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 05:41 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

All good stuff here, and BNGL's take on things I will accept as pretty much gospel.

And, zoysia hybrids will be coming in big waves real soon.

Something that I have yet to encounter are good paspalum greens, and I wonder how they hold up with the cold, as I know they do pretty well with heat.

With water availability and usage cost becoming more important than ever, paspalum will be growing ever larger in discussions.

Paspalum does well, had the seashore (everywhere but greens) and sea star (greens only) varieties at a course I worked at. It performed very well in the occasional days of sub 40 evening temps. We didn’t have to mow greens for a couple days, just rolled.

UGA is banking on this as the future of turf, much like A&M with DALZ.

Here’s a link directly from UGA with some useful literature.

http://www.seashorepaspalum.uga.edu

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#50 augustgolf

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 05:48 PM

View PostBNGL, on 10 December 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

All good stuff here, and BNGL's take on things I will accept as pretty much gospel.

And, zoysia hybrids will be coming in big waves real soon.

Something that I have yet to encounter are good paspalum greens, and I wonder how they hold up with the cold, as I know they do pretty well with heat.

With water availability and usage cost becoming more important than ever, paspalum will be growing ever larger in discussions.

Paspalum does well, had the seashore (everywhere but greens) and sea star (greens only) varieties at a course I worked at. It performed very well in the occasional days of sub 40 evening temps. We didn’t have to mow greens for a couple days, just rolled.

UGA is banking on this as the future of turf, much like A&M with DALZ.

Here’s a link directly from UGA with some useful literature.

http://www.seashorepaspalum.uga.edu

Thanks for the input - I only have some experience with the seashore, that a course happened to put on their greens. Not sure what the outcome, as I disengaged from their operation...

"disengaged" - I like that, and I just made it up!

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#51 BNGL

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 06:02 PM

View PostNorth Texas, on 10 December 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 09 December 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

View PostTiemco, on 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Although it is still pretty new it’s possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.

100 percent true. If DALZ 1308 was a stock I’d be buying all that I could. It has superior roll characteristics with minimum inputs, which is great for clubs that can not afford to maintain premium year round conditions.
Zoysia was always a great option on tees and fairways, but not on greens because it produced an inconsistent roll or couldn’t get fast tournament greens (11 plus) consistently. This new strand has in testing, solved those problem.

We have bent greens that we will be replacing sometime in the next few years. Meanwhile, our practice area has 3 greens that our super is testing 3 different grasses on. Two are some strain of bent and one is the DALZ 1308 Zoysia.

BNGL, do you happen to know if the 1308 has to be covered during the winter like bermuda or not?

I’m not too sure the specifics, but again I’d hedge towards yes if you’re having a long sustained actual winter. But if it’s a week of colder temps I wouldn’t be too worried. Just stay off it if it’s frosty.

I can try to find some literature to point you in the right direction because I don’t know the answer.

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#52 BNGL

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 06:18 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 10 December 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

All good stuff here, and BNGL's take on things I will accept as pretty much gospel.

And, zoysia hybrids will be coming in big waves real soon.

Something that I have yet to encounter are good paspalum greens, and I wonder how they hold up with the cold, as I know they do pretty well with heat.

With water availability and usage cost becoming more important than ever, paspalum will be growing ever larger in discussions.

Paspalum does well, had the seashore (everywhere but greens) and sea star (greens only) varieties at a course I worked at. It performed very well in the occasional days of sub 40 evening temps. We didn’t have to mow greens for a couple days, just rolled.

UGA is banking on this as the future of turf, much like A&M with DALZ.

Here’s a link directly from UGA with some useful literature.

http://www.seashorepaspalum.uga.edu

Thanks for the input - I only have some experience with the seashore, that a course happened to put on their greens. Not sure what the outcome, as I disengaged from their operation...

"disengaged" - I like that, and I just made it up!

Disengaged lol sounds like you had multiple nights of “wtf are they doing?!? I’m out!!!”

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#53 mallrat

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 07:51 PM

Just go with Poa :)

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#54 bladehunter

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 03:55 PM

View PostTiemco, on 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Although it is still pretty new itís possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.

Maybe so. But I hope not. Zoysia is the worst surface Iíve ever putted. Like Velcro.  You think the putt is going by and it may stop and roll back at you.  Then one minute you canít get it to the hole no matter what.  Chips roll out even with spin.  No control with that grass.

Thatís not to say they wonít develope strains that are good. The two local courses that have them get the same reviews day in and out ď great layout but the greens are horrible to gauge  ď.  

Thatís River Falls and Links-o-Tyron for  anyone local to upstate sc whoís interested.

Edited by bladehunter, 11 December 2018 - 04:01 PM.

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#55 dpb5031

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 03:57 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 December 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

View PostTiemco, on 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Although it is still pretty new itís possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.

Maybe so. But I hope not. Zoysia is the worst surface Iíve ever putted. Like Velcro.  You think the putt is going by and it may stop and roll back at you.  Then one minute you canít get it to the hole no matter what.  Chips roll out even with spin.  No control with that grass.

I won't say it's the worst, but the rest of your sentiments mirror the way I feel about Paspalum greens.

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#56 dpb5031

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:02 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 December 2018 - 10:16 PM, said:

First off OP. Wish Iíd known you were in town ( Iím in spartanburg) Iíd have had you over to play with us one afternoon.  I have some good Bermuda for you to sample over this way.  

Thanks man, I almost posted on GOLFWRX to see if I could find a game in the area.  Turned out I got an invite to Muskgrove Mill which was very cool, and also played Furman.I'm in South FL now (just moved here), but I'll reach put next time I'm up in Greenville visiting the MIL.
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#57 BIG STU

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:17 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

All good stuff here, and BNGL's take on things I will accept as pretty much gospel.

And, zoysia hybrids will be coming in big waves real soon.

Something that I have yet to encounter are good paspalum greens, and I wonder how they hold up with the cold, as I know they do pretty well with heat.

With water availability and usage cost becoming more important than ever, paspalum will be growing ever larger in discussions.
The only Paspalum greens I have had the displeasure of playing on here is at Pine Lakes "The Granddaddy" and frankly all 3 times I played it sucked. There was much fanfare when they converted a few years back but no one else in this area I know of has converted. Quite a few of the public courses here still have bent greens but it is high maintenance. I remember at the Pearl ( in Calabash)  last summer they were having to syringe the greens between groups because it was so hot that day. I remember the worker apologized to us and we told him we knew what was going on and to do what he needed to do. I can remember Old Carolina CC in Charlotte had those huge fans on the open exposed greens to cool them. I do not have one idea what they have now. My friend was a member there but left some 20 years ago when they screwed up the original Ross design
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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:18 PM

View Postdpb5031, on 11 December 2018 - 04:02 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 December 2018 - 10:16 PM, said:

First off OP. Wish I'd known you were in town ( I'm in spartanburg) I'd have had you over to play with us one afternoon.  I have some good Bermuda for you to sample over this way.  

Thanks man, I almost posted on GOLFWRX to see if I could find a game in the area.  Turned out I got an invite to Muskgrove Mill which was very cool, and also played Furman.I'm in South FL now (just moved here), but I'll reach put next time I'm up in Greenville visiting the MIL.
Musgrove Mill is a great course been a while since I played it---- I used to live in the upstate of SC before moving to the coast
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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:23 PM

View PostArtMBgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 12:07 AM, said:

The problems with hybrid bermuda grass greens in the Carolinas this past spring, were due to a cold winter, a warmup thaw, then deep freezing again.

Most of the Myrtle Beach courses that installed new greens this summer used Sunday Hybrid, possibly because it seemed to hold up well at the few
courses with it. Most of these upgraded courses already needed new greens to replace old bermuda or a failed hybrid they had.
Courses that already had good hybrid greens, patched bad spots. The few courses with covers had no problems.  

I think southern courses with good bent greens will continue as long as they are good, but when it's time to upgrade they will choose a hybrid.
The level of course and location will always be a factor.

Two years ago, Crow Creek in MB replaced bent with a new bent called V8, that is supposed to take the heat.   I don't know yet if they can take the heat.

Well maintained hybrid greens putt as good as bent, but they seem to break less as the ball dies at the cup.
Played Crow Creek 2 weeks ago got in 13 holes before the rain. Those greens were smooth and slick. As slick as those greens were you had to be careful where you positioned the ball. It had been so long since I had played there I forgot the contours of the greens had quite a few 5 foot comebacks which I do not fear.
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#60 Tiemco

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 04:32 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 11 December 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

View PostTiemco, on 09 December 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

Although it is still pretty new it’s possible you will see more and more ultradwarf zoysia grass on greens over Bermuda when switching from bent.

Maybe so. But I hope not. Zoysia is the worst surface I’ve ever putted. Like Velcro.  You think the putt is going by and it may stop and roll back at you.  Then one minute you can’t get it to the hole no matter what.  Chips roll out even with spin.  No control with that grass.

That’s not to say they won’t develope strains that are good. The two local courses that have them get the same reviews day in and out “ great layout but the greens are horrible to gauge  “.  

That’s River Falls and Links-o-Tyron for  anyone local to upstate sc who’s interested.

Both of those courses use Diamond Zoysia on their greens. Diamond is an old variety developed in 1996.  20 years is a long time with regards to turfgrass development. The very new strain that we are talking about, Dalz 1308, also known as Tambika, is much finer and produces a much better green surfaces with PGA level Stimps.


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