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PGA of America moving to Frisco (Dallas)


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#31 Bluefan75

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 02:53 PM

 Mtn_Mikey, on 04 December 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

 Bluefan75, on 04 December 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 imakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Setting aside the other things, a friend of mine told me that the WPB headquarters are too small for the current organization's size.  Not to mention the fact the apprentices go to Port St Lucie for their classes.  

Having said that, I agree with every single post about how this is likely more driven by the $$$ and perks for the national officers, etc., and is certainly not about the members.

If I remember correctly the Learning Center (the apprentices utilize the Education Center building on this piece of land) has already been placed up for sale. It is a far more valuable piece of property for condos or housing than a practice and education facility. I'm sure the town of PSL is drooling over the potential tax revenue.

Education can be done almost anywhere. Dallas would be far more centralized for transportation rather than West Palm Beach airport (45 minutes from the Education Center in PSL-requiring bus transportation to and from) with it's limited non stop offerings. Coming from CO three times we always had to connect either thru Atlanta or Dallas.

The old, single course PGA Country Club located across I-95 from the PGA Golf Club which has three excellent courses has already been divested. The PGA has indicated they are committed to the PGA Golf Club. OK.

I will feel very sorry for the staff members in both Port St. Lucie and Palm Beach Gardens being placed in the difficult position of potentially uprooting their families even if the PGA offers them relocation packages. Been there done that with my corporate life and dealing with closing facilities a number of times.

They've sold the single course.  The Learning center has not attracted interest yet.  Potentially due to the PGA's asking price, potentially other reasons.  

Where I would be ticked off about PGA Golf Club membership is the learning center was a huge part of the value of the membership there.  If I had just joined and they take that away I would be having conversations about refunds.  

Education can be done anywhere, but as my buddy who works there told me, it was 29* in Frisco last night.  You don't want that many sessions to be indoor lessons do you?  Cause you are not outdoors in Frisco as often as in PSL.


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#32 Roadking2003

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:59 PM

 Bluefan75, on 05 December 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

 Roadking2003, on 04 December 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

 Bluefan75, on 04 December 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 imakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Setting aside the other things, a friend of mine told me that the WPB headquarters are too small for the current organization's size.  Not to mention the fact the apprentices go to Port St Lucie for their classes.  

Having said that, I agree with every single post about how this is likely more driven by the $$$ and perks for the national officers, etc., and is certainly not about the members.

How is that any different from any other business?   Do you think Tim Cook makes decisions because they benefit him or because they benefit the factory workers building Apple phones?

Tim Cook is responsible to shareholders of apple, to maximize the value of their shares.  Apple pays taxes, and the factory workers are compensated for their work in the chain.

So I can see how that is totally analagous.  Except it's not.

It's exactly the same business model.  Both maximize the value of their shareholders. Neither maximizes value for their workers.  I'm not complaining. It's just how business works.

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#33 Openwater22

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 06:58 PM

 Bluefan75, on 05 December 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

 Mtn_Mikey, on 04 December 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

 Bluefan75, on 04 December 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 imakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Setting aside the other things, a friend of mine told me that the WPB headquarters are too small for the current organization's size.  Not to mention the fact the apprentices go to Port St Lucie for their classes.  

Having said that, I agree with every single post about how this is likely more driven by the $$$ and perks for the national officers, etc., and is certainly not about the members.

If I remember correctly the Learning Center (the apprentices utilize the Education Center building on this piece of land) has already been placed up for sale. It is a far more valuable piece of property for condos or housing than a practice and education facility. I'm sure the town of PSL is drooling over the potential tax revenue.

Education can be done almost anywhere. Dallas would be far more centralized for transportation rather than West Palm Beach airport (45 minutes from the Education Center in PSL-requiring bus transportation to and from) with it's limited non stop offerings. Coming from CO three times we always had to connect either thru Atlanta or Dallas.

The old, single course PGA Country Club located across I-95 from the PGA Golf Club which has three excellent courses has already been divested. The PGA has indicated they are committed to the PGA Golf Club. OK.

I will feel very sorry for the staff members in both Port St. Lucie and Palm Beach Gardens being placed in the difficult position of potentially uprooting their families even if the PGA offers them relocation packages. Been there done that with my corporate life and dealing with closing facilities a number of times.

They've sold the single course.  The Learning center has not attracted interest yet.  Potentially due to the PGA's asking price, potentially other reasons.  

Where I would be ticked off about PGA Golf Club membership is the learning center was a huge part of the value of the membership there.  If I had just joined and they take that away I would be having conversations about refunds.  

Education can be done anywhere, but as my buddy who works there told me, it was 29* in Frisco last night.  You don't want that many sessions to be indoor lessons do you?  Cause you are not outdoors in Frisco as often as in PSL.
Learning Center is under contract, July 2019 closing if all stays on track. Current practice range expansion at the club to include additional full swing tee line and short game area is in planning stages. #10 Ryder may become a 3 par with the practice range and short game area occupying the current tee area and unused land butting up against entry road.

Edited by Openwater22, 05 December 2018 - 06:59 PM.

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#34 buckeyefl

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:17 AM

 dbleag, on 03 December 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

$omebody must be paying $omebody $omething for the PGA to move there.

Just like all the PGA of America $ponsors paying huge sums, which only go to benefit officers, dignitaries and executives, but no benefit to the lowly PGA members.

Sort of like Washington, DC.

Of course they are and the membership can enjoy seeing where their money goes and how those they send it to get to enjoy it.

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#35 buckeyefl

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:18 AM

 imakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Its always because of the money.


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#36 buckeyefl

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:22 AM

 Bluefan75, on 05 December 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

 Roadking2003, on 04 December 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

 Bluefan75, on 04 December 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 imakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Setting aside the other things, a friend of mine told me that the WPB headquarters are too small for the current organization's size.  Not to mention the fact the apprentices go to Port St Lucie for their classes.  

Having said that, I agree with every single post about how this is likely more driven by the $$$ and perks for the national officers, etc., and is certainly not about the members.

How is that any different from any other business?   Do you think Tim Cook makes decisions because they benefit him or because they benefit the factory workers building Apple phones?

Tim Cook is responsible to shareholders of apple, to maximize the value of their shares.  Apple pays taxes, and the factory workers are compensated for their work in the chain.

So I can see how that is totally analagous.  Except it's not.

Yep. Not even close.

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#37 Bluefan75

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 09:08 AM

 Roadking2003, on 05 December 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

 Bluefan75, on 05 December 2018 - 02:50 PM, said:

 Roadking2003, on 04 December 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

 Bluefan75, on 04 December 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

 imakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Setting aside the other things, a friend of mine told me that the WPB headquarters are too small for the current organization's size.  Not to mention the fact the apprentices go to Port St Lucie for their classes.  

Having said that, I agree with every single post about how this is likely more driven by the $$$ and perks for the national officers, etc., and is certainly not about the members.

How is that any different from any other business?   Do you think Tim Cook makes decisions because they benefit him or because they benefit the factory workers building Apple phones?

Tim Cook is responsible to shareholders of apple, to maximize the value of their shares.  Apple pays taxes, and the factory workers are compensated for their work in the chain.

So I can see how that is totally analagous.  Except it's not.

It's exactly the same business model.  Both maximize the value of their shareholders. Neither maximizes value for their workers.  I'm not complaining. It's just how business works.

I shouldn't do this, because it feels like feeding the troll, but maybe go read up on exactly what a shareholder is, and how that pertains to the PGAoA in any way, shape or form.

Or as Mark Rippetoe likes to say, "read more, post less."

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#38 farmer

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 11:46 AM

I wonder if Frisco and the two counties gave them a big tax break to move?

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#39 MountainGoat

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:13 PM

This is probably a stupid question, but what's the corporate status of PGA of America?  Is there stock? Is it a publicly traded company? Is it a non-profit?

Edited by MountainGoat, 06 December 2018 - 12:14 PM.


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#40 jmck

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:44 PM

It's a non-profit with ~1b in annual revenue.


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#41 Gnomesteel

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 12:50 PM

Seems like a smart move to me. Tons of business(money) moving to the area, and it's still a relatively inexpensive place to live. Big time bang for your buck. Plus, it's centrally located and near DFW Airport. Not to mention the massive amount of money the city of Frisco is throwing at them.

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#42 Bluefan75

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 06:15 PM

View PostOpenwater22, on 05 December 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostBluefan75, on 05 December 2018 - 02:53 PM, said:

View PostMtn_Mikey, on 04 December 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

View PostBluefan75, on 04 December 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

View Postimakaveli, on 03 December 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

Just because of money or there is comething else?

Setting aside the other things, a friend of mine told me that the WPB headquarters are too small for the current organization's size.  Not to mention the fact the apprentices go to Port St Lucie for their classes.  

Having said that, I agree with every single post about how this is likely more driven by the $$$ and perks for the national officers, etc., and is certainly not about the members.

If I remember correctly the Learning Center (the apprentices utilize the Education Center building on this piece of land) has already been placed up for sale. It is a far more valuable piece of property for condos or housing than a practice and education facility. I'm sure the town of PSL is drooling over the potential tax revenue.

Education can be done almost anywhere. Dallas would be far more centralized for transportation rather than West Palm Beach airport (45 minutes from the Education Center in PSL-requiring bus transportation to and from) with it's limited non stop offerings. Coming from CO three times we always had to connect either thru Atlanta or Dallas.

The old, single course PGA Country Club located across I-95 from the PGA Golf Club which has three excellent courses has already been divested. The PGA has indicated they are committed to the PGA Golf Club. OK.

I will feel very sorry for the staff members in both Port St. Lucie and Palm Beach Gardens being placed in the difficult position of potentially uprooting their families even if the PGA offers them relocation packages. Been there done that with my corporate life and dealing with closing facilities a number of times.

They've sold the single course.  The Learning center has not attracted interest yet.  Potentially due to the PGA's asking price, potentially other reasons.  

Where I would be ticked off about PGA Golf Club membership is the learning center was a huge part of the value of the membership there.  If I had just joined and they take that away I would be having conversations about refunds.  

Education can be done anywhere, but as my buddy who works there told me, it was 29* in Frisco last night.  You don't want that many sessions to be indoor lessons do you?  Cause you are not outdoors in Frisco as often as in PSL.
Learning Center is under contract, July 2019 closing if all stays on track. Current practice range expansion at the club to include additional full swing tee line and short game area is in planning stages. #10 Ryder may become a 3 par with the practice range and short game area occupying the current tee area and unused land butting up against entry road.

I do recall hearing the plans to shut it down soon.  That would suck though to lose a par 4 there over this.  Not the greatest hole in the world, but still....

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#43 youraway2

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 06:59 PM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 03 December 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

It’s ok

Just raise the dues.....plenty of kids clamoring for min wage positions will pay those dues

Grow the game, not!  Been a dying Major Tournament for years, and yep, the young kids trying to succeed as 2nd or 3rd assistants, will get to pay more,

Maybe the TPC will be the new 4th Major

Edited by youraway2, 08 December 2018 - 07:06 PM.

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#44 BNGL

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:25 PM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 03 December 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

It’s ok

Just raise the dues.....plenty of kids clamoring for min wage positions will pay those diues

Pardon a dumb question but don’t the clubs typically pick up the dues for their employees? They have for GCSAA at every club I have been a part of, wouldn’t necessarily cover the expenses of traveling to the show but definitely picked up membership dues for local, state, national organizations.

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#45 buckeyefl

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 01:13 AM

View PostBNGL, on 08 December 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 03 December 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

It’s ok

Just raise the dues.....plenty of kids clamoring for min wage positions will pay those diues

Pardon a dumb question but don’t the clubs typically pick up the dues for their employees? They have for GCSAA at every club I have been a part of, wouldn’t necessarily cover the expenses of traveling to the show but definitely picked up membership dues for local, state, national organizations.

It used to he the norm but that was long ago. Some do some don't.


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#46 BNGL

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 01:41 PM

View Postbuckeyefl, on 09 December 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 08 December 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 03 December 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

It’s ok

Just raise the dues.....plenty of kids clamoring for min wage positions will pay those diues

Pardon a dumb question but don’t the clubs typically pick up the dues for their employees? They have for GCSAA at every club I have been a part of, wouldn’t necessarily cover the expenses of traveling to the show but definitely picked up membership dues for local, state, national organizations.

It used to he the norm but that was long ago. Some do some don't.

That’s total bullxxxx. If the club wants the best people they need to pay for it. Clubs and management companies have really gone downhill in providing exceptional customer service and developing/retaining elite talent. That’s unfortunate.

Edited by BNGL, 09 December 2018 - 01:52 PM.


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#47 BIG STU

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 02:46 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 03 December 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

The original "deal" between the PGA of America, and Ecclestone, the developer of the PGA National Resort - and the many other aspects all related to the original deal - never really seemed to be all that solid, with a great deal of friction coming between the 2 at times.

Even the acquisition of the PGA courses in Port St Lucie, FL were so tied into the original deal.

Of course, this original deal was way back when "nobody was ever going to live and/or play golf west of the Florida Turnpike" and the PGA was becoming a real "for profit" business entity, placing more emphasis on making money for the business entity (as well as great perks for national officers, etc)....

Hopefully, any new deals will be more favorable, in terms of benefits, to PGA members....but, I won't be holding my breath.
Yeah and the PGAOA is exactly like the USGA---- Not for the betterment of the game but the betterment of their pocketbook--- And I can say that being a former PGAOA member
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#48 jmck

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Posted 09 December 2018 - 06:22 PM

View PostBNGL, on 09 December 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

View Postbuckeyefl, on 09 December 2018 - 01:13 AM, said:

View PostBNGL, on 08 December 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 03 December 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

It’s ok

Just raise the dues.....plenty of kids clamoring for min wage positions will pay those diues

Pardon a dumb question but don’t the clubs typically pick up the dues for their employees? They have for GCSAA at every club I have been a part of, wouldn’t necessarily cover the expenses of traveling to the show but definitely picked up membership dues for local, state, national organizations.

It used to he the norm but that was long ago. Some do some don't.

That’s total bullxxxx. If the club wants the best people they need to pay for it. Clubs and management companies have really gone downhill in providing exceptional customer service and developing/retaining elite talent. That’s unfortunate.

I'm not in any way disagreeing with you, but it is what it is, as they say.  Exceptional customer service and developing/retaining talent cost money.  30 years back, of course every club would pay PGA dues for staffers and most payed expenses for staffers good enough to travel to play.  Now it's just another corner that gets cut, one of many.  Each year stuff like fertilizer and food costs tracks with inflation while stuff like insurance increases faster than inflation.  Members never want dues to go up, the public doesn't want rack rates to go up.  Pretty much every facility that survived the overbuilding of the 90s then the economy tanking in '08-09 has already maxed out F&B and events revenue for their market......So, yeah, it used to be that even the goat-yist of goat tracks would cover dues, but not so much anymore.

Does this concern the PGAOA?  Maybe they'll pay it a little lip service or throw it the occasional powerpoint deck.....but as long as their own balance sheet continues to look amazing it's not really their problem.

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#49 rangersgoalie

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 04:52 PM

Among the problems is the growth of golf management programs in colleges or the like.
Some are producing great, talented young professionals, but are also over saturating a shrinking
Workplace.
As long as management companies can easily find a number of applicants for their minimum wage jobs,
Market forces will keep wages down.
Even many courses that generate nice revenue still pay as low as possible, and many clubs (and employees) basically
Assume lesson revenue will offset this.  Of course, the customers pay for that as well.

It should be more difficult to achieve (and maintain) full PGA membership in my opinion.  Better teachers, as well as better business side, better players should be part of being a FULL PGA member.  Maybe the classifications need to be looked at again by the PGA to better identify members who excel in all areas of the business AND game of golf.  Of course, the PGA would just charge members more for that type of classification and growth process

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#50 augustgolf

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 05:19 PM

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 December 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Among the problems is the growth of golf management programs in colleges or the like.
Some are producing great, talented young professionals, but are also over saturating a shrinking
Workplace.
As long as management companies can easily find a number of applicants for their minimum wage jobs,
Market forces will keep wages down.
Even many courses that generate nice revenue still pay as low as possible, and many clubs (and employees) basically
Assume lesson revenue will offset this.  Of course, the customers pay for that as well.

It should be more difficult to achieve (and maintain) full PGA membership in my opinion.  Better teachers, as well as better business side, better players should be part of being a FULL PGA member.  Maybe the classifications need to be looked at again by the PGA to better identify members who excel in all areas of the business AND game of golf.  Of course, the PGA would just charge members more for that type of classification and growth process

I rememberrr when the PGA had very few "classes" of membership. In an effort to increase their revenues, they created classes for just about any and all types of people who wished to be affiliated with the PGA - just pays yo monies and gets yo PGA card!

Big Stu and I know all about this.

As for all the new golf management programs churning out "certified" professionals....just let me "SMFH" and shut up.

Is it true that just about any swinging (you all know the word that fits in next) can run a golf operation?  Maybe...

But it takes a seasoned professional to take one that has serious problems and get it to perform correctly, while providing an excellent value for the customer.

One thing for sure: it takes MUCH more than a piece of paper saying that you completed a "program" and you are now "certified"

I remember when part of my compensation for being an assistant at a club included dues/educational fees...but, that ship sailed many moons ago. I remember when that no longer was part of the compensation offered, and how that was a precursor of the slide of quality and competent professional golf management and administration.

OK - getting off my soap box now....carry on

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#51 Bob Cat

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 06:02 PM

Special Report: What People In Golf Earn from golfdigest.com, Sept 7th, 2018 (2016 returns)...

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#52 youraway2

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 09:14 PM

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 December 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Among the problems is the growth of golf management programs in colleges or the like.
Some are producing great, talented young professionals, but are also over saturating a shrinking
Workplace.
As long as management companies can easily find a number of applicants for their minimum wage jobs,
Market forces will keep wages down.
Even many courses that generate nice revenue still pay as low as possible, and many clubs (and employees) basically
Assume lesson revenue will offset this.  Of course, the customers pay for that as well.

It should be more difficult to achieve (and maintain) full PGA membership in my opinion.  Better teachers, as well as better business side, better players should be part of being a FULL PGA member.  Maybe the classifications need to be looked at again by the PGA to better identify members who excel in all areas of the business AND game of golf.  Of course, the PGA would just charge members more for that type of classification and growth process

I rememberrr when the PGA had very few "classes" of membership. In an effort to increase their revenues, they created classes for just about any and all types of people who wished to be affiliated with the PGA - just pays yo monies and gets yo PGA card!

Big Stu and I know all about this.

As for all the new golf management programs churning out "certified" professionals....just let me "SMFH" and shut up.

Is it true that just about any swinging (you all know the word that fits in next) can run a golf operation?  Maybe...

But it takes a seasoned professional to take one that has serious problems and get it to perform correctly, while providing an excellent value for the customer.

One thing for sure: it takes MUCH more than a piece of paper saying that you completed a "program" and you are now "certified"

I remember when part of my compensation for being an assistant at a club included dues/educational fees...but, that ship sailed many moons ago. I remember when that no longer was part of the compensation offered, and how that was a precursor of the slide of quality and competent professional golf management and administration.

OK - getting off my soap box now....carry on


I'm not sure how to put this but I'll try.  I've been around golf for 50+ years, player, volunteer, played in competitions, ran tournaments, captain of interclub teams, etc. My wife managed a resort golf shop, then a retail golf store, we've pretty much seen it all.  What I noticed was a change, a big change.  Golf professionals, true professionals, were becoming few a far between. I stared seeing young professionals (not really professionals) being groomed to be retail clerks.  Then developing a condescending attitude for some reason. The old school professionals, and you immediately can recognize one, went away.  Oh yes, there’s a few remaining, and I’m fortunate to be around three within a 100-miles of where I live.  I respect them, listen to them, and yes, learn from them.  But the majority of PGAoA professionals I now meet, have little if any people skills. They certainly have a high image of themselves.

So why do I feel this way?  It comes from experiences at the many courses I visit.  What happened?  Why?  I simply do not know other than I have a few thoughts. 1) Management and management companies are only interested in employees who provide minimal services, get by, and help them make money, at a reduced expense. They will not grow young starters, but, perhaps, exploit them. 2) young professionals are not groomed, they are not taught, history, architecture, business skills, and most of all, developing and managing a budget. 3) young professionals quickly forget who the customer is, reverse roles and think they're more important than the golfer/member on the other side of the counter. I assure you, I seldom if ever see an assistant stop a player, either in the golf shop, on the range, or on the course, and say, Mr. Jones, I noticed something that I might be able to help you with, without charging them for a lesson.  Perhaps a minute of time might result in a future series of lessons. I hope things change for the good for these young up and becoming professionals. but the sad news is, I don't think so. They may be a dying breed, replaced by managers and clerks.

My recent visit to two golf courses encountered these experiences; upon arriving I had to stand at the counter and wait for a few minutes before the manager/professional decided to get up out of their chair and come to the counter, then saying, you can get a key for the cart over at the cart area. Then when I went over, I couldn’t find anyone and after 10 minutes the manager decided to walk over a get a key for me, handing it to me and saying nothing, such as glad you’re here.  I also noticed the shop was in total disarray, dirty, never dusted, windows smeared and filthy. At the second course. the next day, the professional had his hat on inside the shop, backwards, sitting on a stool behind the counter. Both individuals were nice pleasant people, but they were never taught skills or standards I would expect from a professional, or from any employee. I thought it’s simply not their fault, no one cares about them, no one sets standards and instills pride.

Sorry if I have offended, not meant too.
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#53 BIG STU

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 03:13 AM

View Postyouraway2, on 12 December 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 December 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Among the problems is the growth of golf management programs in colleges or the like.
Some are producing great, talented young professionals, but are also over saturating a shrinking
Workplace.
As long as management companies can easily find a number of applicants for their minimum wage jobs,
Market forces will keep wages down.
Even many courses that generate nice revenue still pay as low as possible, and many clubs (and employees) basically
Assume lesson revenue will offset this.  Of course, the customers pay for that as well.

It should be more difficult to achieve (and maintain) full PGA membership in my opinion.  Better teachers, as well as better business side, better players should be part of being a FULL PGA member.  Maybe the classifications need to be looked at again by the PGA to better identify members who excel in all areas of the business AND game of golf.  Of course, the PGA would just charge members more for that type of classification and growth process

I rememberrr when the PGA had very few "classes" of membership. In an effort to increase their revenues, they created classes for just about any and all types of people who wished to be affiliated with the PGA - just pays yo monies and gets yo PGA card!

Big Stu and I know all about this.

As for all the new golf management programs churning out "certified" professionals....just let me "SMFH" and shut up.

Is it true that just about any swinging (you all know the word that fits in next) can run a golf operation?  Maybe...

But it takes a seasoned professional to take one that has serious problems and get it to perform correctly, while providing an excellent value for the customer.

One thing for sure: it takes MUCH more than a piece of paper saying that you completed a "program" and you are now "certified"

I remember when part of my compensation for being an assistant at a club included dues/educational fees...but, that ship sailed many moons ago. I remember when that no longer was part of the compensation offered, and how that was a precursor of the slide of quality and competent professional golf management and administration.

OK - getting off my soap box now....carry on


I'm not sure how to put this but I'll try.  I've been around golf for 50+ years, player, volunteer, played in competitions, ran tournaments, captain of interclub teams, etc. My wife managed a resort golf shop, then a retail golf store, we've pretty much seen it all.  What I noticed was a change, a big change.  Golf professionals, true professionals, were becoming few a far between. I stared seeing young professionals (not really professionals) being groomed to be retail clerks.  Then developing a condescending attitude for some reason. The old school professionals, and you immediately can recognize one, went away.  Oh yes, there’s a few remaining, and I’m fortunate to be around three within a 100-miles of where I live.  I respect them, listen to them, and yes, learn from them.  But the majority of PGAoA professionals I now meet, have little if any people skills. They certainly have a high image of themselves.

So why do I feel this way?  It comes from experiences at the many courses I visit.  What happened?  Why?  I simply do not know other than I have a few thoughts. 1) Management and management companies are only interested in employees who provide minimal services, get by, and help them make money, at a reduced expense. They will not grow young starters, but, perhaps, exploit them. 2) young professionals are not groomed, they are not taught, history, architecture, business skills, and most of all, developing and managing a budget. 3) young professionals quickly forget who the customer is, reverse roles and think they're more important than the golfer/member on the other side of the counter. I assure you, I seldom if ever see an assistant stop a player, either in the golf shop, on the range, or on the course, and say, Mr. Jones, I noticed something that I might be able to help you with, without charging them for a lesson.  Perhaps a minute of time might result in a future series of lessons. I hope things change for the good for these young up and becoming professionals. but the sad news is, I don't think so. They may be a dying breed, replaced by managers and clerks.

My recent visit to two golf courses encountered these experiences; upon arriving I had to stand at the counter and wait for a few minutes before the manager/professional decided to get up out of their chair and come to the counter, then saying, you can get a key for the cart over at the cart area. Then when I went over, I couldn’t find anyone and after 10 minutes the manager decided to walk over a get a key for me, handing it to me and saying nothing, such as glad you’re here.  I also noticed the shop was in total disarray, dirty, never dusted, windows smeared and filthy. At the second course. the next day, the professional had his hat on inside the shop, backwards, sitting on a stool behind the counter. Both individuals were nice pleasant people, but they were never taught skills or standards I would expect from a professional, or from any employee. I thought it’s simply not their fault, no one cares about them, no one sets standards and instills pride.

Sorry if I have offended, not meant too.
If you have offended then it backs up the old statement "the truth hurts"----- That is exactly how most things work around here now you described the general golf business here on the Grand Strand to a tee. I am fond of making the statement quite frequently lately " these clowns would have lasted working for my old man about 5 minutes" My old man was all about his customers and people no matter if your were a regular or came in off the street.
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23

#54 new2g0lf

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 01:04 PM

View Postyouraway2, on 12 December 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

View Postaugustgolf, on 10 December 2018 - 05:19 PM, said:

View Postrangersgoalie, on 10 December 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Among the problems is the growth of golf management programs in colleges or the like.
Some are producing great, talented young professionals, but are also over saturating a shrinking
Workplace.
As long as management companies can easily find a number of applicants for their minimum wage jobs,
Market forces will keep wages down.
Even many courses that generate nice revenue still pay as low as possible, and many clubs (and employees) basically
Assume lesson revenue will offset this.  Of course, the customers pay for that as well.

It should be more difficult to achieve (and maintain) full PGA membership in my opinion.  Better teachers, as well as better business side, better players should be part of being a FULL PGA member.  Maybe the classifications need to be looked at again by the PGA to better identify members who excel in all areas of the business AND game of golf.  Of course, the PGA would just charge members more for that type of classification and growth process

I rememberrr when the PGA had very few "classes" of membership. In an effort to increase their revenues, they created classes for just about any and all types of people who wished to be affiliated with the PGA - just pays yo monies and gets yo PGA card!

Big Stu and I know all about this.

As for all the new golf management programs churning out "certified" professionals....just let me "SMFH" and shut up.

Is it true that just about any swinging (you all know the word that fits in next) can run a golf operation?  Maybe...

But it takes a seasoned professional to take one that has serious problems and get it to perform correctly, while providing an excellent value for the customer.

One thing for sure: it takes MUCH more than a piece of paper saying that you completed a "program" and you are now "certified"

I remember when part of my compensation for being an assistant at a club included dues/educational fees...but, that ship sailed many moons ago. I remember when that no longer was part of the compensation offered, and how that was a precursor of the slide of quality and competent professional golf management and administration.

OK - getting off my soap box now....carry on


I'm not sure how to put this but I'll try.  I've been around golf for 50+ years, player, volunteer, played in competitions, ran tournaments, captain of interclub teams, etc. My wife managed a resort golf shop, then a retail golf store, we've pretty much seen it all.  What I noticed was a change, a big change.  Golf professionals, true professionals, were becoming few a far between. I stared seeing young professionals (not really professionals) being groomed to be retail clerks.  Then developing a condescending attitude for some reason. The old school professionals, and you immediately can recognize one, went away.  Oh yes, there’s a few remaining, and I’m fortunate to be around three within a 100-miles of where I live.  I respect them, listen to them, and yes, learn from them.  But the majority of PGAoA professionals I now meet, have little if any people skills. They certainly have a high image of themselves.

So why do I feel this way?  It comes from experiences at the many courses I visit.  What happened?  Why?  I simply do not know other than I have a few thoughts. 1) Management and management companies are only interested in employees who provide minimal services, get by, and help them make money, at a reduced expense. They will not grow young starters, but, perhaps, exploit them. 2) young professionals are not groomed, they are not taught, history, architecture, business skills, and most of all, developing and managing a budget. 3) young professionals quickly forget who the customer is, reverse roles and think they're more important than the golfer/member on the other side of the counter. I assure you, I seldom if ever see an assistant stop a player, either in the golf shop, on the range, or on the course, and say, Mr. Jones, I noticed something that I might be able to help you with, without charging them for a lesson.  Perhaps a minute of time might result in a future series of lessons. I hope things change for the good for these young up and becoming professionals. but the sad news is, I don't think so. They may be a dying breed, replaced by managers and clerks.

My recent visit to two golf courses encountered these experiences; upon arriving I had to stand at the counter and wait for a few minutes before the manager/professional decided to get up out of their chair and come to the counter, then saying, you can get a key for the cart over at the cart area. Then when I went over, I couldn’t find anyone and after 10 minutes the manager decided to walk over a get a key for me, handing it to me and saying nothing, such as glad you’re here.  I also noticed the shop was in total disarray, dirty, never dusted, windows smeared and filthy. At the second course. the next day, the professional had his hat on inside the shop, backwards, sitting on a stool behind the counter. Both individuals were nice pleasant people, but they were never taught skills or standards I would expect from a professional, or from any employee. I thought it’s simply not their fault, no one cares about them, no one sets standards and instills pride.

Sorry if I have offended, not meant too.

Sadly this exists throughout our society, not just on golf courses or pro shops.  People had a sense of pride about their jobs, businesses expected / demanded it and trained them properly to do their jobs well.  Today I see fault on both sides, businesses have stopped investing in employee training because of staff turnover and the quality of employees has diminished since most people today can't keep their phones in their pockets for more than 5 minutes without going into withdrawal.  

It seems the PGAoA has lost their way as well.  Churning out professionals is a business for them.  When you lower the standards and push people through the program for the cash then it's no surprise that the results are poor.  Unfortunately I don't see anything that would lead one to believe things will get better so all that's left is for us to lower our expectations.
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#55 skyking

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 09:17 PM

Hum...ironically we bought a condo on the 10th fairway of the PSL Ryder course in July. I can second that when we joined the club they told us the learning center was to be moved to the now 10th fairway and there’s a new tee being prepared right by our balcony for the par 3. I can also second the learning center land is worth way more as lots for houses. Who’d want to live literally right by I-95 is beyond me but the lots will sell.

We love it there by the way. Play\practice, ride bikes, swim, Pickle Ball, restaurants within 10 minutes, everyone is very nice. Start missing it on the drive back to the airport. Oh...th wife just tells me when got an email on the move last weekend, “you moron”. I’ll try to find it and see if there’s anything to add.


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#56 Mr. Hogan

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 02:02 AM

I'm not trying to sound like an jerk, but unless you live in Orlando or Dallas, or work for the PGA, is there any reason to care about this move?

26

#57 MountainGoat

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 06:36 AM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 14 December 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

It seems the PGAoA has lost their way as well.  Churning out professionals is a business for them.

This the most insightful comment in this whole thread, and it's the reason why this issue is important.  There's something rotten at the very core of the game.  The PGAoA doesn't exist to assist its members, the PGA Professional, in the shared goal of promoting the game.  It exists to create more members who are it's primary customer base.  That's a very different corporate focus.

27

#58 mgholda

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 07:51 AM

View Postskyking, on 14 December 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

Hum...ironically we bought a condo on the 10th fairway of the PSL Ryder course in July. I can second that when we joined the club they told us the learning center was to be moved to the now 10th fairway and there’s a new tee being prepared right by our balcony for the par 3. I can also second the learning center land is worth way more as lots for houses. Who’d want to live literally right by I-95 is beyond me but the lots will sell.

We love it there by the way. Play\practice, ride bikes, swim, Pickle Ball, restaurants within 10 minutes, everyone is very nice. Start missing it on the drive back to the airport. Oh...th wife just tells me when got an email on the move last weekend, “you moron”. I’ll try to find it and see if there’s anything to add.
The good news is you don’t own a condo in the first building closest to the current tee boxes. Those people will definitely be harmed by the move. I have not seen the exact plans, but I would suspect people going to the Dye course will be routed on the cart path in front of your condo along with people now teeing off from that location.
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28

#59 Soloman1

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 12:16 PM

It’s a union. That’s all. The old apprentice system was set up to feed members with wide-eyed, cheap labor.

But in the old days (40+ years ago) the average earnings of a golf pro was just below lawyers in the US. The pros owned the shop, got a piece of carts, pull carts, range balls, clothes, plus repairs and club sales/repair.

All name brand golf clubs were green grass only, so only pros could sell golf clubs, except for department store brands.

Golf course management companies (e.g. America Golf) took away the shops and pros income was slashed.
Club companies started selling to off course shops.
The Internet changed everything.
People stopped playing golf.
Courses started closing.

The apprentice system is still in place, but hasn’t kept pace with the change in society.

It’s still just a union, strong-arming golf courses to hire members only.

Are there good, professional members? Of course. Are there not-so-good members? Of course, just like any job.

It’s still just a highly politicized, old-fashioned union and not some altruistic organization. That’s not meant as a negative comment, the PGA is what it is, a union.
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#60 MountainGoat

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 01:12 PM

View PostSoloman1, on 15 December 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

It’s a union. That’s all. The old apprentice system was set up to feed members with wide-eyed, cheap labor.

But in the old days (40+ years ago) the average earnings of a golf pro was just below lawyers in the US. The pros owned the shop, got a piece of carts, pull carts, range balls, clothes, plus repairs and club sales/repair.

All name brand golf clubs were green grass only, so only pros could sell golf clubs, except for department store brands.

Golf course management companies (e.g. America Golf) took away the shops and pros income was slashed.
Club companies started selling to off course shops.
The Internet changed everything.
People stopped playing golf.
Courses started closing.

The apprentice system is still in place, but hasn’t kept pace with the change in society.

It’s still just a union, strong-arming golf courses to hire members only.

Are there good, professional members? Of course. Are there not-so-good members? Of course, just like any job.

It’s still just a highly politicized, old-fashioned union and not some altruistic organization. That’s not meant as a negative comment, the PGA is what it is, a union.

That's a very useful perspective.


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