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Signs that Junior has a lot potential


51 replies to this topic

#31 heavy_hitter

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:28 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:


hey jj0009,

read the article

maybe you know better than them

This article has nothing to do with your statement.  It is also based on hypothetical s.


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#32 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:28 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

experts (not you) seem to agree with my point

So, the "experts" have analyzed the data and have come to a unanimous conclusion that the ball is the sole contributor to longer distance (and winning) on Tour?

This is your assertion?  Seriously?

The ball is a contributing factor...sure.

Along with many other factors you haven't mentioned.

Faster swingers are gaining advantage because they're swinging faster.  Ask yourself why they are swinging faster.

This is why I try to stay out of arguments with Tigermom.  Her assertions across the board are foolish.  She comes here to seek advice, but already has a fallacy made up in her mind and sticks to it.

Heavyman,

what advice did i seek in this thread?

i am adding value by probably telling you something you didn't know

i am not saying others are WRONG unlike you

YOU are the one who is WRONG with your "Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters" comment

take a look at the other majors if you don't believe me

2

#33 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:31 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

hey jj0009,

read the article

maybe you know better than them

This article has nothing to do with your statement.  It is also based on hypothetical s.

“Once we got into a wound golf ball and once we got into steel shafts, the game from basically the early 1930s until 1995 changed very little, and all the golf courses that were built needed very little adjustment to be able to handle any kind of a tournament," Nicklaus told USA Today in 2007.
...
As Nicklaus states, the ball has played a large role. Driving distances changed little over decades.


Heavyman,

maybe you know better than Jack?

3

#34 kekoa

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:33 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

experts (not you) seem to agree with my point

So, the "experts" have analyzed the data and have come to a unanimous conclusion that the ball is the sole contributor to longer distance (and winning) on Tour?

This is your assertion?  Seriously?

The ball is a contributing factor...sure.

Along with many other factors you haven't mentioned.

Faster swingers are gaining advantage because they're swinging faster.  Ask yourself why they are swinging faster.

This is why I try to stay out of arguments with Tigermom.  Her assertions across the board are foolish.  She comes here to seek advice, but already has a fallacy made up in her mind and sticks to it.

Just stop replying to her posts.  He/She is a troll and I'm standing by that until proven wrong by some proof that He/She is an actual person and not just some side handle used by another user.

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#35 darter79

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.


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#36 heavy_hitter

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:35 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

hey jj0009,

read the article

maybe you know better than them

This article has nothing to do with your statement.  It is also based on hypothetical s.

“Once we got into a wound golf ball and once we got into steel shafts, the game from basically the early 1930s until 1995 changed very little, and all the golf courses that were built needed very little adjustment to be able to handle any kind of a tournament," Nicklaus told USA Today in 2007.
...
As Nicklaus states, the ball has played a large role. Driving distances changed little over decades.


Heavyman,

maybe you know better than Jack?

That is an opinion of Jack.  My opinion is that he is wrong.  I value my opinion more than I value his.

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#37 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:35 PM

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Your comment makes no sense

7

#38 tiger1873

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:40 PM

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Fitness didn't start with Tiger plenty of guys treated golf like a sport and actually worked out. What has changed is way people work out and the science behind the fitness for golf. Technology has impacted fitness just as much as anything else.

It doesn't matter everyone today has the same access to fitness and golf equipment just like it always has been and there is  combination of factors going into the distance gain. Soon the USGA will limit the ball or reduce the driver CC and we will start to lose distance if it's too much of an issue.

Edited by tiger1873, 30 November 2018 - 12:46 PM.


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#39 jj9000

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:43 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Your comment makes no sense

It makes perfect sense, so long as you open you mind to the consideration that there may be something other than the ball contributing to distance gains.

Here...I'll cite a few from the article you asked me to read...and once again show you how wrong you are:
  • lighter shafts
  • larger clubheads
  • springier faces
  • players that are bigger
  • players that are stronger
  • players that are more athletic
  • players that pay more attention to nutrition and the gym

Also...here's a quote from the acticle you asked me to read.  Impossible that an increase in clubhead speed would contribute to longer distances.  Right?

Quote

The average clubhead speed increased from 104 mph in 1980 to 113 in 2016. Andrew Loupe led the PGA Tour with 125.5 average clubhead speed. He recorded a top measured speed of 130.9 mph. In all, 14 pros averaged 120 mph or better.

But...you're still dead-set on this notion of the ball being the only contributing factor.

Again, the ball is a point on a larger data set, but it's not the only point.

Correlation =/= Causation

9

#40 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:45 PM

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Your comment makes no sense

It makes perfect sense, so long as you open you mind to the consideration that there may be something other than the ball contributing to distance gains.

Here...I'll cite a few from the article you asked me to read...and once again show you how wrong you are:
  • lighter shafts
  • larger clubheads
  • springier faces
  • players that are bigger
  • players that are stronger
  • players that are more athletic
  • players that pay more attention to nutrition and the gym
Also...here's a quote from the acticle you asked me to read.  Impossible that an increase in clubhead speed would contribute to longer distances.  Right?

Quote

The average clubhead speed increased from 104 mph in 1980 to 113 in 2016. Andrew Loupe led the PGA Tour with 125.5 average clubhead speed. He recorded a top measured speed of 130.9 mph. In all, 14 pros averaged 120 mph or better.

But...you're still dead-set on this notion of the ball being the only contributing factor.

Again, the ball is a point on a larger data set, but it's not the only point.

Correlation =/= Causation

i didn't say it was the only factor


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#41 jj9000

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:48 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Your comment makes no sense

It makes perfect sense, so long as you open you mind to the consideration that there may be something other than the ball contributing to distance gains.

Here...I'll cite a few from the article you asked me to read...and once again show you how wrong you are:
  • lighter shafts
  • larger clubheads
  • springier faces
  • players that are bigger
  • players that are stronger
  • players that are more athletic
  • players that pay more attention to nutrition and the gym
Also...here's a quote from the acticle you asked me to read.  Impossible that an increase in clubhead speed would contribute to longer distances.  Right?

Quote

The average clubhead speed increased from 104 mph in 1980 to 113 in 2016. Andrew Loupe led the PGA Tour with 125.5 average clubhead speed. He recorded a top measured speed of 130.9 mph. In all, 14 pros averaged 120 mph or better.

But...you're still dead-set on this notion of the ball being the only contributing factor.

Again, the ball is a point on a larger data set, but it's not the only point.

Correlation =/= Causation

i didn't say it was the only factor


...and now the backpedal.  Love it!!

11

#42 darter79

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:48 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Your comment makes no sense

Its hard to follow that golfers started working out after tiger woods 2000-2001 which he won 4 strait majors? Which is when distances started to really spike. Well there you go.

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#43 darter79

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:50 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Fitness didn't start with Tiger plenty of guys treated golf like a sport and actually worked out. What has changed is way people work out and the science behind the fitness for golf. Technology has impacted fitness just as much as anything else.

It doesn't matter everyone today has the same access to fitness and golf equipment just like it always has been and there is  combination of factors going into the distance gain. Soon the USGA will limit the ball or reduce the driver CC and we will start to lose distance if it's too much of an issue.

and another Tiger with a name who lacks knowledge.

Keep telling yourself fitness didn't start with Tiger in golf.

https://www.cbssport...e-changed-golf/

yes new tech has helped but Tiger was the one who made golf a true sport with workouts.

Edited by darter79, 30 November 2018 - 12:54 PM.


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#44 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:50 PM

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:45 PM, said:


i didn't say it was the only factor


...and now the backpedal.  Love it!!

from earlier:

"it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective"

14

#45 wildcatden

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:53 PM

Tigermom, it's more than just the ball. There have been countless discussions and studies. As with anything, there is no single silver bullet that can be pinned down as the culprit. Here are some top ones in no particular order:

1. The driver shaft and heads (lighter shafts and titanium heads vs steel shafts and persimmon heads)
2. The ball (yes, ProV1 circa 2000 is a point in time).
3. Golfer as an athlete approach
4. Golf science (think Trackman data)
5. PGA Tour rolling fairways as hard as cement

There's probably others, but no single one can be labeled as the culprit. It's a culmination.  Regardless, I suggest you take your won advice:

View PostTigerMom, on 22 August 2018 - 08:23 PM, said:

This is internet

You post and get replies you don’t want to hear?  IGNORE what you think is not relevant

Take what is useful and adjust frame of mind and world view as needed

If you think you are right anyway, stick to it

Crying will not help


15

#46 GwrxMod

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:54 PM

A reminder to keep it civil and on topic.

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#47 tiger1873

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:04 PM

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Fitness didn't start with Tiger plenty of guys treated golf like a sport and actually worked out. What has changed is way people work out and the science behind the fitness for golf. Technology has impacted fitness just as much as anything else.

It doesn't matter everyone today has the same access to fitness and golf equipment just like it always has been and there is  combination of factors going into the distance gain. Soon the USGA will limit the ball or reduce the driver CC and we will start to lose distance if it's too much of an issue.

and another Tiger with a name who lacks knowledge.

Keep telling yourself fitness didn't start with Tiger in golf.


It didn't Gary Player and Greg Norman worked out long before a lot players. I think I heard Arnold Palmer and others well. Lots of them just did what ever they thought worked for them.  Not everyone was a John Daly  if you believe that you also believe that everyone on GolfWRX hits the ball 350 yards.

Th science of fitness changed and Tiger over did it too. His record isn't exactly stellar the last few years.

I have been trying to figure out who Tigermom really is and I have a feeling it's darter? You work in tech and I know guys like you who do that sort of thing and argue with themselves.

17

#48 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:11 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:


Soon the USGA will limit the ball or reduce the driver CC and we will start to lose distance if it's too much of an issue.


this was the initial point i was trying to make

18

#49 darter79

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:22 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 01:04 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 12:40 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 30 November 2018 - 12:34 PM, said:

TigerMom

you keep saying its just the ball it was introduced in 2000 that's why driving distance started going up. Your name is the reason distance started to go up. Its called the Tiger Effect. The season 2000- 2001 probably the greatest golf ever played. Why Tiger treated golf as a sport vs a skill. John daily driving 12 packs before teeing off smoking down the fairway. Tiger was hitting the gym. Monkey see monkey do. The rest of the tour started to treat it the same. If you ask me that's the delta that's why distances starting shooting up. You can't even be around junior golf with out talking about junior golf fitness programs. Its the the flipping ball.

Fitness didn't start with Tiger plenty of guys treated golf like a sport and actually worked out. What has changed is way people work out and the science behind the fitness for golf. Technology has impacted fitness just as much as anything else.

It doesn't matter everyone today has the same access to fitness and golf equipment just like it always has been and there is  combination of factors going into the distance gain. Soon the USGA will limit the ball or reduce the driver CC and we will start to lose distance if it's too much of an issue.

and another Tiger with a name who lacks knowledge.

Keep telling yourself fitness didn't start with Tiger in golf.


It didn't Gary Player and Greg Norman worked out long before a lot players. I think I heard Arnold Palmer and others well. Lots of them just did what ever they thought worked for them.  Not everyone was a John Daly  if you believe that you also believe that everyone on GolfWRX hits the ball 350 yards.

Th science of fitness changed and Tiger over did it too. His record isn't exactly stellar the last few years.

I have been trying to figure out who Tigermom really is and I have a feeling it's darter? You work in tech and I know guys like you who do that sort of thing and argue with themselves.

never said they were all JD types. Didn't say none EVER worked out. I said Tiger made it where almost all of them treated it as a true sport as athletes. Tiger changed golf in terms of fitness if you want to believe it or not. Many articles will support that. Just because the dude hasn't had much success lately densest take away from what he has done.

Didn't you parents teach you not to pick on computer nerds. Wouldn't be wise.

19

#50 kcap

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:24 PM

Wow.. it looks like we were actually able to come to an agreement!

At least I think.


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#51 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:31 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

hey jj0009,

read the article

maybe you know better than them

This article has nothing to do with your statement.  It is also based on hypothetical s.

average ranking in driving distance of PGA Championship winner:
1980s: #85
1990s: #44
2000s: #33
2010s: #18

21

#52 TigerMom

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:46 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters


Wrong.  Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters with great short games.  

If they change the ball and equipment it will only make the longer hitters more dominant.

Do you think people go to a baseball game to see a bunt single?  No.  They go to see a homerun.

Do you think people go to a football game to see a 1 yard run up the middle?  No, they go to see an 80 yard touchdown pass.

Do you think people go to a basketball game to see them shoot free throws?  No. They go to the game to see slam dunks.

When people go to a PGA tour event they aren’t following the guy who drives it 280.  They follow and watch the guys driving it 300+.

avg driving distance rank of Masters winners:
1980s: #69
1990s: #83
2000s: #34
2010s: #33

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