Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

Signs that Junior has a lot potential


51 replies to this topic

#1 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 781 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 368

Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:43 AM

I know lots has been talked about what is great but what are the signs that someone actually has talent in golf?

Over the years I am seeing really two things that matter especially in younger kids.

The first being consistent.  The kids who can place a ball the same spot every time has some serious talent with a repeatable swing.  Most kids are not capable of this and can't place multiple balls in a 2 yard spot every time.  This goes over a lot peoples head because when they're young this isn't always the one winning and there are a lot reasons for this.


The second is feel. If you don't have feel you can't putt or chip especially on fast greens. Very few kids can get speed right on a fast green this how you know if they truly have feel. Slow greens are much easier and not the same thing.  Understanding that speed is purely feel and either you have it you don't goes over most peoples heads.  Kids that have good speed have always had it.


If a kid has those two things they have a lot potential as I don't think you can truly teach them either.

Edited by tiger1873, 29 November 2018 - 11:51 AM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 Pinewood Golfer

Pinewood Golfer

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 70 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 471630
  • Joined: 06/17/2017
  • Location:Mississippi
GolfWRX Likes : 76

Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:53 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 29 November 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

I know lots has been talked about what is great but what are the signs that someone actually has talent in golf?

Over the years I am seeing really two things that matter especially in younger kids.

The first being consistent.  The kids who can place a ball the same spot every time has some serious talent with a repeatable swing.  Most kids are not capable of this and can't place multiple balls in a 2 yard spot every time.  This goes over a lot peoples head because when they're young this isn't always the one winning and there are a lot reasons for this.


The second is feel. If you don't have feel you can't putt or chip especially on fast greens. Very few kids can get speed right on a fast green.  This another that goes over most peoples heads because speed doesn't always mean they make putts in the beginning.


If a kid has those two things they have a lot potential as I don't think you can truly teach them either.

First thing is drive. Potential is meaningless without the internal drive to excel.

But theres more to it than that. Most young kids donít have perfect swings or, quite honestly, even good swings. Most young kids havenít had swings built for them yet.

Potential exists when a kid can take a flawed swing and produce shots at a reasonably high and reasonably consistent level.

Real potential exists when a youngster is very long for his/her SIZE, not age. You can see things in a youngsters swing like lower body use, corrections at impact that show a very naturalóas opposed to taughtóability to perform well today and in the future.

But really itís kids that do those things and have the ability to ďget the ball in the holeĒ more quickly than their skill level would suggest. Natural feel, touch, etc.

Itís very easy to build an outstanding 7-10 year old golfer with enough time and money. We play against some of the best young kids in the world and my sonís results are sorta top half, you might say.

But I can look at the other kids and know pretty easily who has a higher ceiling

2

#3 DaddyCaddieIU

DaddyCaddieIU

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 513672
  • Joined: 10/03/2018
  • Location:Midwest
  • Handicap:0
GolfWRX Likes : 0

Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:28 PM

At what age would you say elite juniors have a great feel for putting?  I would say averaging 16 putts or less for 9 holes would be very good for a 5-8 year old.

3

#4 BrianMcG

BrianMcG

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,825 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 71565
  • Joined: 12/30/2008
  • Location:Tennessee
GolfWRX Likes : 2362

Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.
Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
Bobby: I play because I love it.
Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.

4

#5 leezer99

leezer99

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,026 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 1018

Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:42 PM

High Talent + High Commitment = High Potential

High Talent + Low Commitment = A coaches heartbreak

Low Talent + High Commitment = Some potential

Low Talent + Low Commitment = Playing Fortnite


5

#6 kekoa

kekoa

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,939 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66944
  • Joined: 10/02/2008
  • Location:in the hole
  • Handicap:4-20
GolfWRX Likes : 1917

Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:56 PM

Agree on the consistency part.  Not only in ball striking, but also scores.  

I personally think my son has potential, but lately it almost feels like he has hit a wall of some sort.  I don't see him really improving much in parts of his game and possibly even getting worse.  I can't put my finger on it whether it's a motivational thing, mechanics, or otherwise.

6

#7 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 120 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 60

Posted 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - todayís golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

7

#8 Kenny Lee Puckett

Kenny Lee Puckett

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,666 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 379660
  • Joined: 06/08/2015
  • Location:Arizona USA
  • Handicap:0
GolfWRX Likes : 2963

Posted 29 November 2018 - 01:28 PM

probably 99.9% of players will not play their entire lives for a living.

placing them in competition early on is completely appropriate. but too much of "Junior golf" parenting I've seen is literally insane.

IMO ultimately the goal should be the kids going out, have fun, and grip it and rip it.

this beautiful game can be enjoyed by them for a lifetime, I can't think of another one like it.
https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be  video on course practice 5/2016

Ping G LST: Ping Tour 80
Ping Anser 4wd: Accra S3-80 RT
PXG 0317 Hybrid: Fujikura 8D07HB

Ping S55 4-PW: Dynamic Gold Tour Issue
Ping Glide 2.0  50/54/58 SS: DG Tour Issue
Ping Darby F Ti-Pixel

Ping 703 Cord/Lamkin Players Cord/Pingman putter grip
Ping Sensor glove/Srixon 2017 Z-Star XV
Ping Hoofer 2016 bag

8

#9 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 781 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 368

Posted 29 November 2018 - 02:20 PM

View PostDaddyCaddieIU, on 29 November 2018 - 12:28 PM, said:

At what age would you say elite juniors have a great feel for putting?  I would say averaging 16 putts or less for 9 holes would be very good for a 5-8 year old.

I would say 10-11 is where you really start to see these things. Younger then that is tough because kids get tired and they're just kids so it's a challenge for them focus and play golf for hours on end.

View Postkekoa, on 29 November 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

Agree on the consistency part.  Not only in ball striking, but also scores.  

I personally think my son has potential, but lately it almost feels like he has hit a wall of some sort.  I don't see him really improving much in parts of his game and possibly even getting worse.  I can't put my finger on it whether it's a motivational thing, mechanics, or otherwise.

Scores go up and down if you talking about kids as they grow.  I really think that scoring low everytime is not that important until they're older.  I also don't like  kids in tournaments where every shot needs to a birdie to win because the field is large and course is too easy for every kid.  I don't think any kid should have that sort of pressure when they are that young.

A good test to see if they repeat the swing is take 10 balls and let them hit it with a club they like and see where it lands.  Ideally you want to do this on an empty golf course and hit into green but really can do this in a park or anywhere you have enough room and decent place to hit it off. Also just have them pick the target and tell them to just go at it.

I done this with my kids and it really helps with telling you how close they can expect a shot to land. It also helps to video it if you can so you can identify issues in ball flight that are consistent.  If the balls all land in tight circle then it really opens up possibilities. If not then you can manage expectations too so either way it helps.

Edited by tiger1873, 29 November 2018 - 02:27 PM.


9

#10 theothertwo

theothertwo

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,092 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 7986
  • Joined: 11/21/2005
GolfWRX Likes : 187

Posted 29 November 2018 - 02:57 PM

Long ball hitter, good chipper and putter, solid iron player but above all IMO, a love for the game along with a good and mature temperament.  Patience and ability to grind.

Modesty aside, my son had all of the above and was a successful varsity and junior golfer in high school but other interests took priority and golf became just a hobby to him.  He only played in 2 junior events, won one and 2nd on the other - both boys 14-15 SCPGA Junior Tour events.  He's 26 now and still maintains a respectable handicap although he very rarely plays.  

We only provided opportunities and he took up golf and piano as major hobbies.  He still does both but not professionally.

He had a very good golf instructor and piano teacher and he was lucky in that sense, great teachers are the key IMO.

My only contribution is to show him what not to do, especially in a golf swing.

Edited by theothertwo, 29 November 2018 - 07:40 PM.

GBB 816 DBD Alpha 10*  Driver, GBB 816 DBD Alpha 16*  4 Wood, Bridgestone J15 21* Hybrid, Titleist 816H1 25* Hybrid, J36 PC 5-PW , BX W-1 52* & 58* Wedges, Slighter Seattle Putter

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters

It can change just like they did with putters

Signs that a kid is talented is usually obvious

A coach or parent who has been around a lot of junior sports can recognize when a kid is something special

But the most important thing for success is kid has to love it, wants to be the best and is able connect her effort to improvement and result

At that point it’s all up to them in terms of how far they get

11

#12 heavy_hitter

heavy_hitter

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,700 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 366715
  • Joined: 03/16/2015
GolfWRX Likes : 2305

Posted 30 November 2018 - 06:34 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters


Wrong.  Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters with great short games.  

If they change the ball and equipment it will only make the longer hitters more dominant.

Do you think people go to a baseball game to see a bunt single?  No.  They go to see a homerun.

Do you think people go to a football game to see a 1 yard run up the middle?  No, they go to see an 80 yard touchdown pass.

Do you think people go to a basketball game to see them shoot free throws?  No. They go to the game to see slam dunks.

When people go to a PGA tour event they aren’t following the guy who drives it 280.  They follow and watch the guys driving it 300+.

12

#13 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:22 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters


Wrong.  Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters with great short games.  

If they change the ball and equipment it will only make the longer hitters more dominant.

Do you think people go to a baseball game to see a bunt single?  No.  They go to see a homerun.

Do you think people go to a football game to see a 1 yard run up the middle?  No, they go to see an 80 yard touchdown pass.

Do you think people go to a basketball game to see them shoot free throws?  No. They go to the game to see slam dunks.

When people go to a PGA tour event they aren’t following the guy who drives it 280.  They follow and watch the guys driving it 300+.

Heavyman,

YOU are WRONG

look at the winners of majors in the 80s and 90s and the driving distance rankings

some were long hitters, most were not

13

#14 leezer99

leezer99

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,026 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 1018

Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:33 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters


Wrong.  Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters with great short games.  

If they change the ball and equipment it will only make the longer hitters more dominant.

Do you think people go to a baseball game to see a bunt single?  No.  They go to see a homerun.

Do you think people go to a football game to see a 1 yard run up the middle?  No, they go to see an 80 yard touchdown pass.

Do you think people go to a basketball game to see them shoot free throws?  No. They go to the game to see slam dunks.

When people go to a PGA tour event they aren’t following the guy who drives it 280.  They follow and watch the guys driving it 300+.

Heavyman,

YOU are WRONG

look at the winners of majors in the 80s and 90s and the driving distance rankings

some were long hitters, most were not

Posted Image

14

#15 augustgolf

augustgolf

    Golf with dignity

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,403 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 438244
  • Joined: 08/25/2016
  • Location:Coastal NC
  • Ebay ID:augustgolf
GolfWRX Likes : 3967

Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:34 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters


Wrong.  Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters with great short games.  

If they change the ball and equipment it will only make the longer hitters more dominant.

Do you think people go to a baseball game to see a bunt single?  No.  They go to see a homerun.

Do you think people go to a football game to see a 1 yard run up the middle?  No, they go to see an 80 yard touchdown pass.

Do you think people go to a basketball game to see them shoot free throws?  No. They go to the game to see slam dunks.

When people go to a PGA tour event they aren’t following the guy who drives it 280.  They follow and watch the guys driving it 300+.
They go to NASCAR & the Indy 500 to see the crashes

Pings from the beginning

OGA member 1415
or is it 1514...
I don't remember exactly

15

#16 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 781 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 368

Posted 30 November 2018 - 09:49 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 08:22 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 30 November 2018 - 06:34 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 29 November 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

View PostBrianMcG, on 29 November 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

If they are good at other sports and pick things up quickly.

This - today’s golf and the future of golf.  Athletic golfer has a higher ceiling than a robotic golfer.  You can teach a kid to control short game  distance on fast, medium and slow greens with hours of repetition.  You cannot teach any kid how to be explosive off the tee or the hand eye coordination it takes to shape and flight shots regardless of repetition IMO.

Until they change the ball or equipment rules to deemphasize distance

Golf historically was not dominated by power hitters


Wrong.  Golf has always been mostly dominated by longer hitters with great short games.  

If they change the ball and equipment it will only make the longer hitters more dominant.

Do you think people go to a baseball game to see a bunt single?  No.  They go to see a homerun.

Do you think people go to a football game to see a 1 yard run up the middle?  No, they go to see an 80 yard touchdown pass.

Do you think people go to a basketball game to see them shoot free throws?  No. They go to the game to see slam dunks.

When people go to a PGA tour event they aren’t following the guy who drives it 280.  They follow and watch the guys driving it 300+.

Heavyman,

YOU are WRONG

look at the winners of majors in the 80s and 90s and the driving distance rankings

some were long hitters, most were not

Bobby Jones, Ben Hogan, Arnold Palmer , Jack Nicklaus, Greg Norman and many others were much much longer then a lot people. The reality is to score low you need to be be able to get the ball down the fairway a long way. I don't think there is anyone on tour ever that hit the ball with the same distance of the average weekend golfer.

The fact that most people don't have distance to score low leads them to a false hope they can score low if they work on the short game.  The more I am around golf the more I see there is a limit on what people can score based on their driving ability based on the yardage you play from. So what that means if you playing a 5000 yard tee you will need X distance but jump that to 6000 or 7000 yards and you need X+1 or X+2 distance to break par.  

With Kids you see huge yardage jumps over certain years. I seen a lot kids win at 7 or 8 but couldn't hack it at 10 or 11 because the distance was just not there and quit. From I can see the next jump is 13 or 14. Based on what I know for girls at lot girls score pretty well that are 11-12 but a lot them can't get past 200 yards for whatever reason. Those kids are in trouble for sure in a few years. Looking at older groups I seen kids who  at one time routinely scored in the low 70's can't break 90 and that is simply because I seen them play in the past and they are probably not  able to hit it past 200 yards. I am sure the same thing is for boys but the distances are different.

Edited by tiger1873, 30 November 2018 - 09:53 AM.


16

#17 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

17

#18 jj9000

jj9000

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 2,228 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99079
  • Joined: 11/23/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 2384

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

18

#19 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:30 AM

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

experts (not you) seem to agree with my point

19

#20 jj9000

jj9000

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 2,228 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99079
  • Joined: 11/23/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 2384

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:41 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

experts (not you) seem to agree with my point

So, the "experts" have analyzed the data and have come to a unanimous conclusion that the ball is the sole contributor to longer distance (and winning) on Tour?

This is your assertion?  Seriously?

The ball is a contributing factor...sure.

Along with many other factors you haven't mentioned.

Faster swingers are gaining advantage because they're swinging faster.  Ask yourself why they are swinging faster.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#21 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

experts (not you) seem to agree with my point

So, the "experts" have analyzed the data and have come to a unanimous conclusion that the ball is the sole contributor to longer distance (and winning) on Tour?

This is your assertion?  Seriously?

The ball is a contributing factor...sure.

Along with many other factors you haven't mentioned.

Faster swingers are gaining advantage because they're swinging faster.  Ask yourself why they are swinging faster.

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective

go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

21

#22 jj9000

jj9000

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 2,228 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99079
  • Joined: 11/23/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 2384

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:48 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective


go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

https://ipfs.io/ipfs..._causation.html

I'm not getting anything.  You just made my point for me, above in RED FONT.

Also, I've linked a definition of correlation/causation for your perusal.

Have a great day!!

22

#23 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:53 AM

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective


go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

https://ipfs.io/ipfs..._causation.html

I'm not getting anything.  You just made my point for me, above in RED FONT.

Also, I've linked a definition of correlation/causation for your perusal.

Have a great day!!

you didn't prove anything with your wikipedia link

a simple test would be take a modern ball (prov1) and construct a replica of older model

have long, medium and short hitters hit both

measure dispersion

the longer hitters would most likely be hitting new balls MUCH longer than other hitters vs their distance difference using old balls

no wonder they have increased advantage

i'm glad you are going away - you have added nothing to this discussion

Edited by TigerMom, 30 November 2018 - 10:54 AM.


23

#24 jj9000

jj9000

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 2,228 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 99079
  • Joined: 11/23/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 2384

Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:10 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective


go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

https://ipfs.io/ipfs..._causation.html

I'm not getting anything.  You just made my point for me, above in RED FONT.

Also, I've linked a definition of correlation/causation for your perusal.

Have a great day!!

you didn't prove anything with your wikipedia link

a simple test would be take a modern ball (prov1) and construct a replica of older model

have long, medium and short hitters hit both

measure dispersion

the longer hitters would most likely be hitting new balls MUCH longer than other hitters vs their distance difference using old balls

no wonder they have increased advantage

i'm glad you are going away - you have added nothing to this discussion

Not gone just yet.  I do, however, enjoy when folks dig their heels in despite overwhelming evidence.

You conveniently glossed over Leezer's Driving stats above (copied again below)

So...to be clear.  Your conclusion...verbatim (that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball)

ProV1 was introduced in 2000.  What happened from 2013-2017.  Did the ball change?  Did something else change?  Do you know, or have conclusive evidence that the ball is the only reason for the 2013-2017 delta?  The answer is...no...you don't.

Calling Correlation not implying Causation "stupid" kind of solidifies my point here.

You said above it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening.  the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective.

I can't put the pieces together any clearer for you.

Attached File  Leezers stats showing how wrong you are.jpg   82.98K   2 downloads

24

#25 augustgolf

augustgolf

    Golf with dignity

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,403 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 438244
  • Joined: 08/25/2016
  • Location:Coastal NC
  • Ebay ID:augustgolf
GolfWRX Likes : 3967

Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:24 AM

banging head3.gif

Pings from the beginning

OGA member 1415
or is it 1514...
I don't remember exactly

25

#26 leezer99

leezer99

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,026 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 1018

Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:34 AM

LUKE DONALD: “The magic formula is you have to gain two strokes on the field per round,” Donald explained. “I’m losing 1 1/2 [strokes] off the tee if I’m not hitting it 300 [yards] all the time or hitting it straight, so I have to find 3 1/2 [strokes] in the rest of my game, which is almost impossible. That’s what it was when I was No. 1.”

Simply put, without the benefit of 320-yard drives, every other aspect of a player’s game must be nearly flawless for a sustained period of time.

Game Trending Longer

26

#27 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 781 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 368

Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:35 AM

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective


go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

https://ipfs.io/ipfs..._causation.html

I'm not getting anything.  You just made my point for me, above in RED FONT.

Also, I've linked a definition of correlation/causation for your perusal.

Have a great day!!

you didn't prove anything with your wikipedia link

a simple test would be take a modern ball (prov1) and construct a replica of older model

have long, medium and short hitters hit both

measure dispersion

the longer hitters would most likely be hitting new balls MUCH longer than other hitters vs their distance difference using old balls

no wonder they have increased advantage

i'm glad you are going away - you have added nothing to this discussion

Technology has played a role but that was back in the 80's and 90's when some good players got left behind on tour. Back then some guys were traditionalists and hung on to their persimmons woods. The last guy to win with a persimmon was I think in 1993 and was Bernhard Langer.  The better players all used persimmons and actually drove the ball far enough for their needs.  I think eventually by the late 90's most of those guys retired.  

I read somewhere that tiger actually used a lot the newer tech when he came on tour and that is when the arms race really happened. Now we just have catch up pretty soon we are not going to see gains that much more.

Edited by tiger1873, 30 November 2018 - 11:36 AM.


27

#28 kcap

kcap

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 104 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 417624
  • Joined: 03/28/2016
GolfWRX Likes : 116

Posted 30 November 2018 - 11:43 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective


go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

https://ipfs.io/ipfs..._causation.html

I'm not getting anything.  You just made my point for me, above in RED FONT.

Also, I've linked a definition of correlation/causation for your perusal.

Have a great day!!

you didn't prove anything with your wikipedia link

a simple test would be take a modern ball (prov1) and construct a replica of older model

have long, medium and short hitters hit both

measure dispersion

the longer hitters would most likely be hitting new balls MUCH longer than other hitters vs their distance difference using old balls

no wonder they have increased advantage

i'm glad you are going away - you have added nothing to this discussion

Technology has played a role but that was back in the 80's and 90's when some good players got left behind on tour. Back then some guys were traditionalists and hung on to their persimmons woods. The last guy to win with a persimmon was I think in 1993 and was Bernhard Langer.  The better players all used persimmons and actually drove the ball far enough for their needs.  I think eventually by the late 90's most of those guys retired.  

I read somewhere that tiger actually used a lot the newer tech when he came on tour and that is when the arms race really happened. Now we just have catch up pretty soon we are not going to see gains that much more.

Not taking any sides on this very entertaining debate!!


https://www.pga.com/...odern-equipment

An interesting article on this topic.
Chad Campbell averaged 291 yards off the tee in 2009, ranking 70th on the PGA Tour. At the Byron Nelson Classic that year, he hit Titleist Balata 100 balls on the driving range with a persimmon driver supplied by noted golf author Curt Sampson, according to a blog post published at GolfDigest.com.

The results were startling.

His average drive with the Byron Nelson wooden driver went 247 yards. The ball carried 270 yards off his driver, which measured 45” and 230 off the relic, which measured 43”.

He swung the 150-gram steel shaft in the persimmon at 106 miles per hour. He swung the 75-gram graphite shaft in his driver at 113 miles per hour. A driver two inches longer and two ounces lighter enabled Campbell to generate more speed. According to golf club designer Tom Wishon in a post on GolfWRX.com, each mile-per-hour of clubhead speed equals 2.8 yards of carry. He wrote that advancements in golf equipment account for at best, 25 percent of the distance increase.


28

#29 TigerMom

TigerMom

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504874
  • Joined: 06/16/2018
GolfWRX Likes : 103

Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:22 PM

View Postkcap, on 30 November 2018 - 11:43 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 30 November 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:53 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

your simplistic "causation not correlation" comment is dumb

sorry

you provide some evidence and prove otherwise

many commentators agree the ball is the problem

it doesn't have to explain 100% of what is happening

the actual % is unknowable and arguably subjective


go get your own facts and show us you know what you're talking about

https://ipfs.io/ipfs..._causation.html

I'm not getting anything.  You just made my point for me, above in RED FONT.

Also, I've linked a definition of correlation/causation for your perusal.

Have a great day!!

you didn't prove anything with your wikipedia link

a simple test would be take a modern ball (prov1) and construct a replica of older model

have long, medium and short hitters hit both

measure dispersion

the longer hitters would most likely be hitting new balls MUCH longer than other hitters vs their distance difference using old balls

no wonder they have increased advantage

i'm glad you are going away - you have added nothing to this discussion

Technology has played a role but that was back in the 80's and 90's when some good players got left behind on tour. Back then some guys were traditionalists and hung on to their persimmons woods. The last guy to win with a persimmon was I think in 1993 and was Bernhard Langer.  The better players all used persimmons and actually drove the ball far enough for their needs.  I think eventually by the late 90's most of those guys retired.  

I read somewhere that tiger actually used a lot the newer tech when he came on tour and that is when the arms race really happened. Now we just have catch up pretty soon we are not going to see gains that much more.

Not taking any sides on this very entertaining debate!!


https://www.pga.com/...odern-equipment

An interesting article on this topic.
Chad Campbell averaged 291 yards off the tee in 2009, ranking 70th on the PGA Tour. At the Byron Nelson Classic that year, he hit Titleist Balata 100 balls on the driving range with a persimmon driver supplied by noted golf author Curt Sampson, according to a blog post published at GolfDigest.com.
The results were startling.
His average drive with the Byron Nelson wooden driver went 247 yards. The ball carried 270 yards off his driver, which measured 45” and 230 off the relic, which measured 43”.
He swung the 150-gram steel shaft in the persimmon at 106 miles per hour. He swung the 75-gram graphite shaft in his driver at 113 miles per hour. A driver two inches longer and two ounces lighter enabled Campbell to generate more speed. According to golf club designer Tom Wishon in a post on GolfWRX.com, each mile-per-hour of clubhead speed equals 2.8 yards of carry. He wrote that advancements in golf equipment account for at best, 25 percent of the distance increase.

hey jj0009,

read the article

maybe you know better than them

29

#30 heavy_hitter

heavy_hitter

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,700 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 366715
  • Joined: 03/16/2015
GolfWRX Likes : 2305

Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:25 PM

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:30 AM, said:

View Postjj9000, on 30 November 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 30 November 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

the average rank in driving distance for winner of the US Open

1980s was #89

1990s it was #99

2000s #50

2010s #35

Titleist ProV1 was introduced in 2000

if you look at statistics of driving distance the average goes up over time

but the standard deviation going up a lot faster

that means faster swinging players gaining more advantage because of ball

if you change ball rule the long hitter advantage is less, not more

Correlation =/= Causation

You picked a data point (the ball), and you're basing your argument on that single data point.

experts (not you) seem to agree with my point

So, the "experts" have analyzed the data and have come to a unanimous conclusion that the ball is the sole contributor to longer distance (and winning) on Tour?

This is your assertion?  Seriously?

The ball is a contributing factor...sure.

Along with many other factors you haven't mentioned.

Faster swingers are gaining advantage because they're swinging faster.  Ask yourself why they are swinging faster.

This is why I try to stay out of arguments with Tigermom.  Her assertions across the board are foolish.  She comes here to seek advice, but already has a fallacy made up in her mind and sticks to it.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors