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Rotating the left forearm in the backswing


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#1 avrag

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 03:14 PM

After reading the Encyclopedia Texarkana for the third time, I came across something I hadn't really noticed as that important the first two times. Page 25 of the condensed version. "Rotating the Forerams".
The clockwise rotation of the left forearm in the backswing was also stressed as very important in an instruction piece about Tiger's swing on Golf Digest online recently.
So I looked at my own swing and realized, that I had very little rotation of the left forearm in the backswing. I had always thought it had to come naturally anyway, because otherwise you would break something in the backswing  :clapping: . But obviously it doesn't "just happen". Especially not, if you have a "one piece takeaway", very straight back and with the clubhead very low and close to the ground like I do. So I tried to consciously rotate the left forearm clockwise when my hands are about 8 o'clock high in the back swing, and this leads many good things.
The right elbow can stay closer to the body. My backswing, that has always been to long, is shortened, and it is a lot easier to bring the clubface back to the ball at the correct height above the ground. Since I started doing this, the fat and thin shots that have always plagued me, are practically gone. Well, not completely, but they are significantly fewer now.
People who pick up the club steeply will probably not profit from this thought, but for people like me, it seems to be essential.
I'd be happy if some of the instructors and swing experts would chime in with their opinions. What does this rotation of the left forearm really do? What faults will happen, if you don't do it, or if you overdo it?
Thanks.

I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

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#2 PurePursuit

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 03:28 PM

Opens the face up in relation to the swing path.  So you can aggressively rotate through the shot without fear of pull/hookin it..otherwise you have to hold off your release a bit (depending on how shut you are at the top).  From my understanding.

#3 Dariusz J.

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:04 PM

Clockwise rotation of the forearms that happens in the backswing is a very natural thing that happens very naturally (and, BTW, shifts the plane up - ideally to a parallel one), no matter if someone thinks or does not think about it...otherwise you would not be able to complete the backswing while maintaining the spine angle. Why ? Because elbow joints cannot move in all directions. This fact also unables us to have our clubfaces be square to the arc all the swing, alas.
I am sceptic about concentrating on forearms rotation as usually when talking about attempts to control the motion of small muscles, especially in a one plane swing type that relies on core rotation.
If you overdo it you can end too much laid-off at the top; if you underdo it - you will end ATL. It is not, IMHO, the way leading to the automatic backswing. It also depends on a grip type - strongish grips need less rotation, weakish need more.

Cheers

#4 utopiapga

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:14 PM

View PostDariusz J., on Jun 10 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

Clockwise rotation of the forearms that happens in the backswing is a very natural thing that happens very naturally (and, BTW, shifts the plane up - ideally to a parallel one), no matter if someone thinks or does not think about it...otherwise you would not be able to complete the backswing while maintaining the spine angle. Why ? Because elbow joints cannot move in all directions. This fact also unables us to have our clubfaces be square to the arc all the swing, alas.
I am sceptic about concentrating on forearms rotation as usually when talking about attempts to control the motion of small muscles, especially in a one plane swing type that relies on core rotation.
If you overdo it you can end too much laid-off at the top; if you underdo it - you will end ATL. It is not, IMHO, the way leading to the automatic backswing. It also depends on a grip type - strongish grips need less rotation, weakish need more.

Cheers



Very well said I could not agree more..............

I could not even ADD anything to it as to take away from what Dariusz said!

Well done Cheers!

#5 dfw1500

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:23 PM

The left forearm rotation going back after the club has been kept perpenidular to the spine in the 1st move and then from the 8 o'clock position going back the left arm rotation opens the face in the backswing so that it is ready to be closed via the rotation of the body through the shot......it also gives a depth at the top of the backswing where there is space for the arms to come down into in the transition and allows the arms and the core to be in synch together with the club face/shaft/arm all on the same "plane" this allows for an aggressive rotation through the shot.


#6 spider

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:32 PM

Question I have been wondering??????

To properly rotate the left forearm should it be done by... the right wrist hinging...right elbow bending or moving back...while left wrist is cocking and forearm rotating.

I am thinking that it is death if left wrist bows...left shoulder does the left forearm rotation...club head moves inside before handle.  Well it seems like it is to me and why I get flat and laid off on the back swing than sling it :clapping:  

The way I check this is by:  at address cocking club straight up to parallel to ground.... then while keeping the butt of the club in the same approximate place rotate the left forearm while hinging the right wrist and elbow back.... until club head and shaft are parallel to the ball line stance line.

I dunno if this is correct?  :)
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#7 scotchblade

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:36 PM

Seems to me this does not require any conscious thought.  I mean making a backswing WITHOUT any rotation would be extremely difficult to do, so why would one have to think about it?  Rotate it more than it already does naturally?  How much?

#8 spider

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 04:46 PM

View Postscotchblade, on Jun 10 2008, 02:36 PM, said:

Seems to me this does not require any conscious thought.  I mean making a backswing WITHOUT any rotation would be extremely difficult to do, so why would one have to think about it?  Rotate it more than it already does naturally?  How much?


I am not expert but it seems you could not rotate or counter clockwise rotate and have left wrist bowing ... or over rotate it clockwise like most slicers seem to do with the club face wide open.
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#9 Dariusz J.

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:52 PM

View Postutopiapga, on Jun 10 2008, 04:14 PM, said:

Very well said I could not agree more..............

I could not even ADD anything to it as to take away from what Dariusz said!

Well done Cheers!

Thank you very much for kind words.


View Postdfw1500, on Jun 10 2008, 04:23 PM, said:

The left forearm rotation going back after the club has been kept perpenidular to the spine in the 1st move and then from the 8 o'clock position going back the left arm rotation opens the face in the backswing so that it is ready to be closed via the rotation of the body through the shot......it also gives a depth at the top of the backswing where there is space for the arms to come down into in the transition and allows the arms and the core to be in synch together with the club face/shaft/arm all on the same "plane" this allows for an aggressive rotation through the shot.

I am afraid you are wrong in one point, Dan. It is not possible to bring the face down to the square to the arc position at the impact zone by body rotation only. Proper forearm rotation in the second phase of the swing opens the face to 90 degrees in relation to the arc while the clubface is at the top.
In rotary swings, the upper body is open at impact, but not enough - one would need a 90* open body at impact to square the club by pivot only what would mean that at impact one needs to face the target with the chest in order to square the face without anti-clockwise rotation back. Since a rotary golfer's body is open at impact, the rotation back is visibly smaller than in backswing phase. The less open is position at impact (or even parallel to the target line - as in case of less rotary 2-plane swings) the larger must be the anti-clockwise rotation back to square the face. It's a simple model above - forward shaft lean at impact (e.g. with irons) complicates it a bit more, but let's treat it as negligible factor here.
Just to add - 2-planers do it mainly via crossover release, one planers via body rotation plus some necessary anticlockwise forearm/wrist motion before entering the impact zone (some of them may do it earlier - as Hardy advocates, some later - as e.g. Mr.Hogan did).

Cheers

Cheers

#10 dfw1500

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 05:59 PM

After the 1st move away with the club/arms/body all moving away together the left forearm rotation sets the club as the right wrist hinges and the right elbow folds setting the club correctly......this is only achieved once the retention of the angle in the left wrist in the 1st move via the turning of the body has been achieved and it keeps the club in synch with the turn. :clapping:

If this rotation is done before the 1st move has been achieved then it leads to the death move where the club is sucked in way to far behind the player and leads to many things to overcome this poor move.

Cheers Dan


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#11 dfw1500

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 06:11 PM

I am afraid you are wrong in one point, Dan. It is not possible to bring the face down to the square to the arc position at the impact zone by body rotation only. Proper forearm rotation in the second phase of the swing opens the face to 90 degrees in relation to the arc while the clubface is at the top.
In rotary swings, the upper body is open at impact, but not enough - one would need a 90* open body at impact to square the club by pivot only what would mean that at impact one needs to face the target with the chest in order to square the face without anti-clockwise rotation back. Since a rotary golfer's body is open at impact, the rotation back is visibly smaller than in backswing phase. The less open is position at impact (or even parallel to the target line - as in case of less rotary 2-plane swings) the larger must be the anti-clockwise rotation back to square the face. It's a simple model above - forward shaft lean at impact (e.g. with irons) complicates it a bit more, but let's treat it as negligible factor here.
Just to add - 2-planers do it mainly via crossover release, one planers via body rotation plus some necessary anticlockwise forearm/wrist motion before entering the impact zone (some of them may do it earlier - as Hardy advocates, some later - as e.g. Mr.Hogan did).

Cheers

Cheers
[/quote]

Dariusz,

I am not saying that from the top you can simply rotate BUT what I am saying is that from this neautral top of the backswing position where the arms/club/shaft are on the same plane it is easy to make the correct transistion (provided the band is stretched) where the left foot is replanted/crush the bug and the weight has been transfered to the left pivot point and the rotation of the body will allow the club to square naturally..........I never mentioned that the clubface would be 90 degrees open to the arc at the top.

Cheers Dan

#12 Dariusz J.

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 06:30 PM

View Postdfw1500, on Jun 10 2008, 06:11 PM, said:

Dariusz,

I am not saying that from the top you can simply rotate BUT what I am saying is that from this neautral top of the backswing position where the arms/club/shaft are on the same plane it is easy to make the correct transistion (provided the band is stretched) where the left foot is replanted/crush the bug and the weight has been transfered to the left pivot point and the rotation of the body will allow the club to square naturally..........I never mentioned that the clubface would be 90 degrees open to the arc at the top.

Cheers Dan

Ah, OK, now all is clear, Dan. Yes, the anti-clockwise motion should happen naturally without thinking about it. This is one of my issues with Hardy's "twist" concept early in the downswing (which, nevertheless, may be and surely is a very good thing for some two plane converts, BTW).
This is why I think that the clockwise turning of forearms during backswing should happen also without thinking about it.

Lastly, it was me who has mentioned that the clubface would be 90 degrees open to the arc at the top...because it would be :clapping: Hypothetically, if we could keep the clubface square to the swing arc till the end of the backswing, the clubface would point straight away from the target to our right (for righthanders) and would be perpendicular to the target line. Rotation of the forearms in a full decent backswing usually opens the clubface by 90*.

Cheers

#13 Tanner25

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 07:02 PM

How do you translate 8 seconds of thoughts into a 2 second swing?

Edited by aslan13, 10 June 2008 - 07:02 PM.


#14 magnum184

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Posted 10 June 2008 - 10:13 PM

Great stuff Dan and Dariusz.

I was a little shocked to read the both of you advocating some form of arm movement or rotation during the downswing. Dan, I guess I was under the impression that you taught that the arms do nothing more than come along for the ride during the downswing. I must have missed something. Really using the pivot, I mean, and not using anything else,  I thought.

My thing with forearm rotation, when done correctly, and I don't believe in any way that it is natural or easy to learn quickly, is that it puts the clubface and shaft in positions during the backswing that give the the downswing the best chance to be delivered without a ton of manipulations in order to deliver the club on the plane I like. Forearm rotation is critical to my swing, and is something I constantly work on and monitor on both sides of the swing.

#15 dfw1500

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 03:20 AM

View Postmagnum184, on Jun 10 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

Great stuff Dan and Dariusz.

I was a little shocked to read the both of you advocating some form of arm movement or rotation during the downswing. Dan, I guess I was under the impression that you taught that the arms do nothing more than come along for the ride during the downswing. I must have missed something. Really using the pivot, I mean, and not using anything else,  I thought.

My thing with forearm rotation, when done correctly, and I don't believe in any way that it is natural or easy to learn quickly, is that it puts the clubface and shaft in positions during the backswing that give the the downswing the best chance to be delivered without a ton of manipulations in order to deliver the club on the plane I like. Forearm rotation is critical to my swing, and is something I constantly work on and monitor on both sides of the swing.


You are 100% correct that i teach a downswing that is squared natuurally by physics and feels like a neatural/passive release and the hands do nothing but come along for the ride.........I was stating in my earlier post that the hands/arms/club are all on the same plane at the top and are then released by letting the band go.

The idea of the backswing is to set the club in the position so that it CAN be released without any manipulations and any conscious thought of the hands and arms.

I do not agree with Hardys twist concept and waa trying to state to Dariuz that the club will square naturally via the rotation once the body has transitioned correctly.......I may have worded it badly BUT i had just finished a 15hour straight teaching day and was feeling a little goosed. :clapping:

Cheers Dan

Edited by dfw1500, 11 June 2008 - 03:21 AM.


#16 magnum184

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 08:48 AM

View Postdfw1500, on Jun 11 2008, 03:20 AM, said:

View Postmagnum184, on Jun 10 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

Great stuff Dan and Dariusz.

I was a little shocked to read the both of you advocating some form of arm movement or rotation during the downswing. Dan, I guess I was under the impression that you taught that the arms do nothing more than come along for the ride during the downswing. I must have missed something. Really using the pivot, I mean, and not using anything else, I thought.

My thing with forearm rotation, when done correctly, and I don't believe in any way that it is natural or easy to learn quickly, is that it puts the clubface and shaft in positions during the backswing that give the the downswing the best chance to be delivered without a ton of manipulations in order to deliver the club on the plane I like. Forearm rotation is critical to my swing, and is something I constantly work on and monitor on both sides of the swing.


You are 100% correct that i teach a downswing that is squared natuurally by physics and feels like a neatural/passive release and the hands do nothing but come along for the ride.........I was stating in my earlier post that the hands/arms/club are all on the same plane at the top and are then released by letting the band go.

The idea of the backswing is to set the club in the position so that it CAN be released without any manipulations and any conscious thought of the hands and arms.

I do not agree with Hardys twist concept and waa trying to state to Dariuz that the club will square naturally via the rotation once the body has transitioned correctly.......I may have worded it badly BUT i had just finished a 15hour straight teaching day and was feeling a little goosed. :)

Cheers Dan


15 hours?????!!!!!!! :clapping:

I bet you were "goosed".

#17 TEConnor

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 01:35 PM

Furyk has little to no forearm rotation in the backswing as I recall.

Tim

#18 mcputter

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 01:51 PM

View PostTEConnor, on Jun 11 2008, 02:35 PM, said:

Furyk has little to no forearm rotation in the backswing as I recall.

Tim

I don't think Tim Clark does either. I believe I read that he's physically incapable of his arms rotating that way. He has to make a compensation or two to accomodate this situation.
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#19 avrag

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:10 PM

View PostTEConnor, on Jun 11 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

Furyk has little to no forearm rotation in the backswing as I recall.

Tim

Maybe you're right. That's why he has to do other things to get on plane for the downswing.
I think this forearm rotation simply gets me into the best possible position to swing through the ball without any manipulations in the downswing, just like Dan wrote.
I agree with the posters who say that there has to be some amount of left forarm rotation, otherwise you couldn't have a backswing at all. But I don't think that the right amount happens automatically, without thinking about it and without doing it consciously. Before I really thought about it, I always tried to make as wide a backswing as possible, with a straight left elbow. Taking the club straight back, I also limited the amount of left forearm rotation. So, in an attempt to complete the backswing from there, yet still keep the right elbow reasonably close to the body, I bowed my left wrist instead of keeping it straight or cupping it. The shaft went across the line and the clubface was pointing skyward. No chance of getting back to the ball consistently from there.
Since I have started to consciously rotate the left forearm a bit more and at the same time thinking about cupping the left wrist a bit (which means it is more or less straight actually), everything feels a lot easier, and all the moving parts just fall into place in the downswing, if I just rotate through. Good feeling.
I see a gap. There definitely is a gap.

#20 dfw1500

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:19 PM

View Postmagnum184, on Jun 11 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

View Postdfw1500, on Jun 11 2008, 03:20 AM, said:

View Postmagnum184, on Jun 10 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

Great stuff Dan and Dariusz.

I was a little shocked to read the both of you advocating some form of arm movement or rotation during the downswing. Dan, I guess I was under the impression that you taught that the arms do nothing more than come along for the ride during the downswing. I must have missed something. Really using the pivot, I mean, and not using anything else, I thought.

My thing with forearm rotation, when done correctly, and I don't believe in any way that it is natural or easy to learn quickly, is that it puts the clubface and shaft in positions during the backswing that give the the downswing the best chance to be delivered without a ton of manipulations in order to deliver the club on the plane I like. Forearm rotation is critical to my swing, and is something I constantly work on and monitor on both sides of the swing.


You are 100% correct that i teach a downswing that is squared natuurally by physics and feels like a neatural/passive release and the hands do nothing but come along for the ride.........I was stating in my earlier post that the hands/arms/club are all on the same plane at the top and are then released by letting the band go.

The idea of the backswing is to set the club in the position so that it CAN be released without any manipulations and any conscious thought of the hands and arms.

I do not agree with Hardys twist concept and waa trying to state to Dariuz that the club will square naturally via the rotation once the body has transitioned correctly.......I may have worded it badly BUT i had just finished a 15hour straight teaching day and was feeling a little goosed. :bigwhack:

Cheers Dan


15 hours?????!!!!!!! :russian_roulette:

I bet you were "goosed".

No doubt I was "goosed" just finished a 2nd day of 15hours straight but am a little more awake today.............he he he :friends:

Edited by dfw1500, 11 June 2008 - 04:20 PM.


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#21 magnum184

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 04:45 PM

View Postdfw1500, on Jun 11 2008, 04:19 PM, said:

View Postmagnum184, on Jun 11 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

View Postdfw1500, on Jun 11 2008, 03:20 AM, said:

View Postmagnum184, on Jun 10 2008, 10:13 PM, said:

Great stuff Dan and Dariusz.

I was a little shocked to read the both of you advocating some form of arm movement or rotation during the downswing. Dan, I guess I was under the impression that you taught that the arms do nothing more than come along for the ride during the downswing. I must have missed something. Really using the pivot, I mean, and not using anything else, I thought.

My thing with forearm rotation, when done correctly, and I don't believe in any way that it is natural or easy to learn quickly, is that it puts the clubface and shaft in positions during the backswing that give the the downswing the best chance to be delivered without a ton of manipulations in order to deliver the club on the plane I like. Forearm rotation is critical to my swing, and is something I constantly work on and monitor on both sides of the swing.


You are 100% correct that i teach a downswing that is squared natuurally by physics and feels like a neatural/passive release and the hands do nothing but come along for the ride.........I was stating in my earlier post that the hands/arms/club are all on the same plane at the top and are then released by letting the band go.

The idea of the backswing is to set the club in the position so that it CAN be released without any manipulations and any conscious thought of the hands and arms.

I do not agree with Hardys twist concept and waa trying to state to Dariuz that the club will square naturally via the rotation once the body has transitioned correctly.......I may have worded it badly BUT i had just finished a 15hour straight teaching day and was feeling a little goosed. :angry22:

Cheers Dan


15 hours?????!!!!!!! :friends:

I bet you were "goosed".

No doubt I was "goosed" just finished a 2nd day of 15hours straight but am a little more awake today.............he he he :bigwhack:


Wow. But you know what? I'm absolutely sure you love what you do. So, therefore you can tolerate back to back 15 hour days. Maybe you should look into some "Grey Goose" after days like those. :russian_roulette:

#22 slicefixer

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 08:17 PM

View Postavrag, on Jun 11 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

View PostTEConnor, on Jun 11 2008, 08:35 PM, said:

Furyk has little to no forearm rotation in the backswing as I recall.

Tim

Maybe you're right. That's why he has to do other things to get on plane for the downswing.
I think this forearm rotation simply gets me into the best possible position to swing through the ball without any manipulations in the downswing, just like Dan wrote.
I agree with the posters who say that there has to be some amount of left forarm rotation, otherwise you couldn't have a backswing at all. But I don't think that the right amount happens automatically, without thinking about it and without doing it consciously. Before I really thought about it, I always tried to make as wide a backswing as possible, with a straight left elbow. Taking the club straight back, I also limited the amount of left forearm rotation. So, in an attempt to complete the backswing from there, yet still keep the right elbow reasonably close to the body, I bowed my left wrist instead of keeping it straight or cupping it. The shaft went across the line and the clubface was pointing skyward. No chance of getting back to the ball consistently from there.
Since I have started to consciously rotate the left forearm a bit more and at the same time thinking about cupping the left wrist a bit (which means it is more or less straight actually), everything feels a lot easier, and all the moving parts just fall into place in the downswing, if I just rotate through. Good feeling.




:russian_roulette:  (a great feeling :friends:)

#23 Hackerforever

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:04 PM

Hardy's one plane instruction advocates clockwise rotation. Actually, you can use counter clockwise rotation which keeps the face squarer to the clubhead path with a straight or slightly bowed left wrist , right palm looking away from the target  at the top or Hardy's clockwise rotation which opens the club head a little more with a slightly cupped left wrist. I use both effectively well. Counterclockwise for wedge shots into the green or ant time  i need more accuracy and clockwise for more distance. Although I get about the same distance from either one. It's not that hard to do. Counterclockwise at the top feels like the true waiter's tray position while the clockwise rotation at the top feels like the palm facing the target ala AJ Bonar. Both square themselves to the ball during the rotational downswing. If you do them in slow motion with passive hands, you will see that during the downswing, your hands/forearms automatically square themselves as they pass your right thigh. Regardless of the rotational direction in the backswing. It's up to the feel, trajectory and release you desire as to which way you rotate on the backswing. Experiment. Just remember they will both square up the club presuming the proper grip, as your hands pass your right thigh. This applies to one plane swings. For a lot, the counter clock wise rotation will feel like you have more control.




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