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Monitors on the Range


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#31 Gautama

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 05:54 PM

View Postgetitdaily, on 18 December 2018 - 11:59 AM, said:

For those of you using monitors on the range for yardage gapping and yardage overall, how are you compensating for the difference in range balls vs the ball you play with?

I'd hate to base any yardage off the range balls I hit. They're good balls, but they spin a lot more than the ball I play.

I realized this very thing my first time out with the mevo.  Kind of an oh-shiz moment.  Marginal range balls, it's like 32į out...not quite sure how to adjust.  Figure I'll get the numbers down and figure out later what the x factor needs to be to adjust.  Seems pretty close to 10% across the board to me, but who knows. Ifigure when the weather gets warmer I'll sacrifice some real but battered balls and see what I come up with.

Edited by Gautama, 18 December 2018 - 05:55 PM.


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#32 Shades234

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 06:29 PM

How important is distance from ball to unit on the Mevo? If you're hitting lines on a grass range, do you have to move the Mevo every couple of shots?

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#33 Gautama

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 08:32 PM

View PostShades234, on 18 December 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

How important is distance from ball to unit on the Mevo? If you're hitting lines on a grass range, do you have to move the Mevo every couple of shots?

The distance does seem to matter (you set it in the app), but not like to the inch or anything,there's some wiggle room.  From the grass you do need to move it occasionally, but I'm finding if I work in rows I can get quite a few shots in before moving. Bigger problem with short irons of course. And it doesn't bother me like I worried I might, just a takes a second that I could probably stand to step away for anyway.  Actually one of the things I like about it is that it slows my pace and reps down, something I need. Last night I used alignment rods to keep the 6 foot gap constant and just worked my way back so I didn't have to measure each time and it wasn't disruptive at all.

It definitely has random moments where things just don't make sense though.  All of a sudden it'll miss a bunch of data completely, or the numbers are just clearly not right. Still learning what causes those misreads, it doesn't always seem to be shot related. All in all though, I really like it so far!

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#34 Charles.eichman

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 08:51 PM

I abused my TM on the range for the first half of the season and i became neurotic. You cant worry about every single number it gives you. Now i only concern myself with club path and AoA.

Also the Mevo is awesome. If i didnt have a TM i would already have one.

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#35 iteachgolf

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.


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#36 Goldenchang

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 08:05 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

Are the initial launch characteristics of limited range balls and tour balls similar enough that you can trust the mevo numbers to translate reasonably on the course?

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#37 getitdaily

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 09:37 AM

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

For launch monitors I have to believe that "normalization" means some algorithm that translates a few variables. For example, compression...

How accurate are the normalization algorithms between a taylormade range ball and a pro v1 or Bridgestone tour b x or tp5?

Edited by getitdaily, 19 December 2018 - 09:37 AM.


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#38 iteachgolf

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 11:24 AM

View Postgetitdaily, on 19 December 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

For launch monitors I have to believe that "normalization" means some algorithm that translates a few variables. For example, compression...

How accurate are the normalization algorithms between a taylormade range ball and a pro v1 or Bridgestone tour b x or tp5?

Normalization is basically doing what the camera based systems are doing.  Extrapolating the ballflight based on the initial launch conditions and not tracking the entire flight.  Normalization is based on a single ball.  So the numbers will be very accurate to that ball.  Meaning itíll normalize a range ball to the Tour ball they have chosen for their normalization accurately.  But you canít do a ball fitting on normalization because itíll make them all the same

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#39 iteachgolf

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 11:28 AM

View PostGoldenchang, on 19 December 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

Are the initial launch characteristics of limited range balls and tour balls similar enough that you can trust the mevo numbers to translate reasonably on the course?

Imo yes.  Now I havent tested every rangeball made but for instance our range balls give almost the same launch and spin numbers as high end balls on full shots (with occasional outlier) but they travel about 3% shorter with woods.  When normalized the numbers are extremely close.  

Mevo is small enough that Iíd take it on course and do some testing.

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#40 Goldenchang

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 02:09 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostGoldenchang, on 19 December 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

Are the initial launch characteristics of limited range balls and tour balls similar enough that you can trust the mevo numbers to translate reasonably on the course?

Imo yes.  Now I havent tested every rangeball made but for instance our range balls give almost the same launch and spin numbers as high end balls on full shots (with occasional outlier) but they travel about 3% shorter with woods.  When normalized the numbers are extremely close.  

Mevo is small enough that Iíd take it on course and do some testing.

Awesome.  It's the only thing stopping me from getting one.


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#41 Krt22

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 02:12 PM

View PostGoldenchang, on 19 December 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostGoldenchang, on 19 December 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

Are the initial launch characteristics of limited range balls and tour balls similar enough that you can trust the mevo numbers to translate reasonably on the course?

Imo yes.  Now I havent tested every rangeball made but for instance our range balls give almost the same launch and spin numbers as high end balls on full shots (with occasional outlier) but they travel about 3% shorter with woods.  When normalized the numbers are extremely close.  

Mevo is small enough that I'd take it on course and do some testing.

Awesome.  It's the only thing stopping me from getting one.

You can just as easily setup net and use tour balls =). I use a FS Xi+ almost exclusively indoors, which I'm guessing uses a similar algorithm to determine the full carry based off the first few feet of flight, and my carry distances are pretty spot on for irons.

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#42 Goldenchang

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 05:15 PM

View PostKrt22, on 19 December 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

View PostGoldenchang, on 19 December 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View PostGoldenchang, on 19 December 2018 - 08:05 AM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 19 December 2018 - 07:03 AM, said:

The Mevo gives normalized numbers.  So range ball should have minimal effect vs x3 tracking its entire flight.

Are the initial launch characteristics of limited range balls and tour balls similar enough that you can trust the mevo numbers to translate reasonably on the course?

Imo yes.  Now I havent tested every rangeball made but for instance our range balls give almost the same launch and spin numbers as high end balls on full shots (with occasional outlier) but they travel about 3% shorter with woods.  When normalized the numbers are extremely close.  

Mevo is small enough that I'd take it on course and do some testing.

Awesome.  It's the only thing stopping me from getting one.

You can just as easily setup net and use tour balls =). I use a FS Xi+ almost exclusively indoors, which I'm guessing uses a similar algorithm to determine the full carry based off the first few feet of flight, and my carry distances are pretty spot on for irons.

If only I didn't live in a tiny NYC apartment :-(


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#43 gigjam78

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 07:34 AM

Without a doubt AOA and dialing in wedges.

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#44 nikegal

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 09:11 AM

View Postb.helts, on 24 November 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Iím a +3 and have never hit a ball with a launch monitor. Indoor or out.
Brian, you made Richardís day and when I showed him your post his smile was ear to ear😊 While I do use both monitor and video, I prefer to initially work with a student withought the aids and gadgets, and depending on the student, continue that way, using both divot and flight to evaluate, diagnose and improve their swing, ball flight and game. It is amazing how many golfers are dependent on these aids and are unable to read either their divot or ball flight to make swing corrections. You made my day too, haha!! Happy new year Brian :) M

Edited by nikegal, 05 January 2019 - 09:11 AM.


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#45 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM

It amazes me how naive folks are who haven’t had access to or are aren’t familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s can’t possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. It’s amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... that’s where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create ‘iron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditions’. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you don’t have control, and or don’t understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. That’s why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.


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#46 b.helts

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 04:43 PM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

It amazes me how naive folks are who havenít had access to or are arenít familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s canít possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. Itís amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... thatís where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create Ďiron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditionsí. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you donít have control, and or donít understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. Thatís why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.

I am quite certain, in my case at least, that it isnít naÔvetť nor ignorance. My point is this: a launch monitor is neither a path to success nor a fix. It is a tool and like all great craftsman, the ones that are good know the tool does not the craftsman make.

I also feel very strongly that dependence on a launch monitor to give you data can (please note I said can) limit or hinder a players on course ability to diagnose, troubleshoot and fix a problem on the fly. Which of course, is vital to scoring well.

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#47 Shilgy

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 07:33 PM

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

It amazes me how naive folks are who havenít had access to or are arenít familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s canít possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. Itís amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... thatís where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create Ďiron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditionsí. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you donít have control, and or donít understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. Thatís why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.

I am quite certain, in my case at least, that it isnít naÔvetť nor ignorance. My point is this: a launch monitor is neither a path to success nor a fix. It is a tool and like all great craftsman, the ones that are good know the tool does not the craftsman make.

I also feel very strongly that dependence on a launch monitor to give you data can (please note I said can) limit or hinder a players on course ability to diagnose, troubleshoot and fix a problem on the fly. Which of course, is vital to scoring well.
I would tend to agree with you but... The pros seem to do fine and very few (if any) even warm up for a round without the orange box behind them
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#48 b.helts

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 09:16 PM

View PostShilgy, on 05 January 2019 - 07:33 PM, said:

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

It amazes me how naive folks are who havenít had access to or are arenít familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s canít possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. Itís amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... thatís where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create Ďiron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditionsí. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you donít have control, and or donít understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. Thatís why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.

I am quite certain, in my case at least, that it isnít naÔvetť nor ignorance. My point is this: a launch monitor is neither a path to success nor a fix. It is a tool and like all great craftsman, the ones that are good know the tool does not the craftsman make.

I also feel very strongly that dependence on a launch monitor to give you data can (please note I said can) limit or hinder a players on course ability to diagnose, troubleshoot and fix a problem on the fly. Which of course, is vital to scoring well.
I would tend to agree with you but... The pros seem to do fine and very few (if any) even warm up for a round without the orange box behind them

Youíre right. And for some it may be dialing in distances or trajectories or whatever. For others I think itís a crutch.

If Joe Pro hits a little push on the range and says ďuh oh, whatís Track Man have to say?Ē Then sees his path is too far right blah blah blah.

The the same Joe Pro hits a push or two on the course and Track Man isnít there to tell him his path does he wonder if it might have just been grip pressure or path or .....? Or does he just assume itís because his path crept too far right again?

And Joe Blow? Fuhgeddaboutit. Track Man is nothing but a glorified swing speed machine.

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#49 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 10:51 PM

No you just haven’t seen one in use. The crutch argument doesn’t hold water because they’re not used causally by weekend recreational ‘ joe blow’ golfers.
They’re used by instructors and tour players.... and pretty much for confirmation and validation. Kind of a silly argument.



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#50 b.helts

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 10:58 PM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 10:51 PM, said:

No you just havenít seen one in use. The crutch argument doesnít hold water because theyíre not used causally by weekend recreational Ď joe blowí golfers.
Theyíre used by instructors and tour players.... and pretty much for confirmation and validation. Kind of a silly argument.

Youíre making assumptions that are false.

And your comment about weekend joe blow golfers is ridiculous. Of course they are used, every day, by John Q.

This whole thread is about Joe Blow using a launc monitor ďsoloĒ on the range, not in a simulator.

Talk about silly.


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#51 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 11:07 PM

Dude you’ve proved my point about ignorance and you said you’ve literally never been on one yet you’re commenting about a 25k device.

I’m not talking about some cheap ‘monitor’ I’m talking about Trackman or Flightscope.... full data radar monitors. They’re not casually used, not in the least.
I taught professionally with one. Nobody is ‘crutching’ on path and attack angle and face angle data that they have limited to no access to.

Your swing speed radar and mevo don’t even provide that level of data Helts.

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#52 b.helts

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 11:30 PM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

Dude youíve proved my point about ignorance and you said youíve literally never been on one yet youíre commenting about a 25k device.

Iím not talking about some cheap Ďmonitorí Iím talking about Trackman or Flightscope.... full data radar monitors. Theyíre not casually used, not in the least.
I taught professionally with one. Nobody is Ďcrutchingí on path and attack angle and face angle data that they have limited to no access to.

Your swing speed radar and mevo donít even provide that level of data Helts.

So, I played professionally for a long while and taught for a short while. In those endeavors I developed many wonderful relationships with the other pros in my area.

Fast forward a few years and Iím just a working stiff. I am an IT guy. As such, I consult with my pro friends on their technology setups for teaching. In return for my ďconsultingĒ we go play golf or I bring out some friends. Whatever.

In any event, Iíve seen every setup under the sun and help set them up. Indoor, outdoor. Yep Iíve done that. Which is about as far from ďyouíve never seen one in useĒ as possible.

Again, my comments in this thread are about average golfers using launch monitors on the range. Which is what this thread is about. If you want to argue about DJ dialing in his wedges with his trackman or DeChambeau using his Mevo and his X3 to do what he does, youíll get no argument from me.

Iíve got no bone to pick with you. You disagree with my opinion? be my guest. Iím ok with that. Just try to stick to what you know rather than what you think you know.

Edited by b.helts, 05 January 2019 - 11:30 PM.


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#53 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 12:03 AM

Im

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 11:30 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

Dude you’ve proved my point about ignorance and you said you’ve literally never been on one yet you’re commenting about a 25k device.

I’m not talking about some cheap ‘monitor’ I’m talking about Trackman or Flightscope.... full data radar monitors. They’re not casually used, not in the least.
I taught professionally with one. Nobody is ‘crutching’ on path and attack angle and face angle data that they have limited to no access to.

Your swing speed radar and mevo don’t even provide that level of data Helts.

So, I played professionally for a long while and taught for a short while. In those endeavors I developed many wonderful relationships with the other pros in my area.

Fast forward a few years and I’m just a working stiff. I am an IT guy. As such, I consult with my pro friends on their technology setups for teaching. In return for my “consulting” we go play golf or I bring out some friends. Whatever.

In any event, I’ve seen every setup under the sun and help set them up. Indoor, outdoor. Yep I’ve done that. Which is about as far from “you’ve never seen one in use” as possible.

Again, my comments in this thread are about average golfers using launch monitors on the range. Which is what this thread is about. If you want to argue about DJ dialing in his wedges with his trackman or DeChambeau using his Mevo and his X3 to do what he does, you’ll get no argument from me.

I’ve got no bone to pick with you. You disagree with my opinion? be my guest. I’m ok with that. Just try to stick to what you know rather than what you think you know.
I’m debating with you because you replied to a comment I made ( which wasn’t directed at you) and compared Trackman to swing speed radar. Comical.

You also previously commented on your skill level of +3 and said you’ve never been on a launch monitor indoor or out. Your words.

You’re now saying you’ve “set up” all these systems up for your pro friends ( which don’t require any IT at all... literally none, just a WiFi connection).

So you set up all these systems  yet you proudly dismiss it? I’m sorry bud... I disagree with most of what you’re claiming because I too played ( attempted really) professionally way before any of this tech came out and have 100% used it to make myself as well as others better players. That I know.

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#54 b.helts

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 12:55 PM

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 06 January 2019 - 12:03 AM, said:

Im

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 11:30 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

Dude youíve proved my point about ignorance and you said youíve literally never been on one yet youíre commenting about a 25k device.

Iím not talking about some cheap Ďmonitorí Iím talking about Trackman or Flightscope.... full data radar monitors. Theyíre not casually used, not in the least.
I taught professionally with one. Nobody is Ďcrutchingí on path and attack angle and face angle data that they have limited to no access to.

Your swing speed radar and mevo donít even provide that level of data Helts.

So, I played professionally for a long while and taught for a short while. In those endeavors I developed many wonderful relationships with the other pros in my area.

Fast forward a few years and Iím just a working stiff. I am an IT guy. As such, I consult with my pro friends on their technology setups for teaching. In return for my ďconsultingĒ we go play golf or I bring out some friends. Whatever.

In any event, Iíve seen every setup under the sun and help set them up. Indoor, outdoor. Yep Iíve done that. Which is about as far from ďyouíve never seen one in useĒ as possible.

Again, my comments in this thread are about average golfers using launch monitors on the range. Which is what this thread is about. If you want to argue about DJ dialing in his wedges with his trackman or DeChambeau using his Mevo and his X3 to do what he does, youíll get no argument from me.

Iíve got no bone to pick with you. You disagree with my opinion? be my guest. Iím ok with that. Just try to stick to what you know rather than what you think you know.
Iím debating with you because you replied to a comment I made ( which wasnít directed at you) and compared Trackman to swing speed radar. Comical.

You also previously commented on your skill level of +3 and said youíve never been on a launch monitor indoor or out. Your words.

Youíre now saying youíve ďset upĒ all these systems up for your pro friends ( which donít require any IT at all... literally none, just a WiFi connection).

So you set up all these systems  yet you proudly dismiss it? Iím sorry bud... I disagree with most of what youíre claiming because I too played ( attempted really) professionally way before any of this tech came out and have 100% used it to make myself as well as others better players. That I know.

I like you. I probably shouldnít but I do.

Whatís got you so invested in launch monitors that you feel compelled to duck and dive around nipping at the corners of what I have to say with innuendo and outright falsehoods?

Youíre being intellectually dishonest and I canít understand why youíd go through the effort?

24

#55 nikegal

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 02:57 PM

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

It amazes me how naive folks are who havenít had access to or are arenít familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s canít possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. Itís amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... thatís where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create Ďiron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditionsí. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you donít have control, and or donít understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. Thatís why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.

I am quite certain, in my case at least, that it isnít naÔvetť nor ignorance. My point is this: a launch monitor is neither a path to success nor a fix. It is a tool and like all great craftsman, the ones that are good know the tool does not the craftsman make.

I also feel very strongly that dependence on a launch monitor to give you data can (please note I said can) limit or hinder a players on course ability to diagnose, troubleshoot and fix a problem on the fly. Which of course, is vital to scoring well.
Very nicely stated!! For those whom your posts make sense, well, they know themselves, their swing and their game, and this of course includes distances, and for those that use the monitor as a tool, that is fine also, however there is no monitor, machine or aid produced that will allow for or calculate the effect that nerves, adrenaline and a quickened heart beat and shallowed breathing have on oneís swing, distances and game. I do not compare Trakman to radar, lol. PKTD has some very valid points, though Iím not referring to the debate that you two are having, but to many of my students and many of the members of this board, who have never, nor will they ever reach either of your levels. Take care Brian😊M

Edited by nikegal, 06 January 2019 - 03:03 PM.


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#56 PutterKilledTheDream

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:12 PM

View Postb.helts, on 06 January 2019 - 12:55 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 06 January 2019 - 12:03 AM, said:

Im

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 11:30 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 11:07 PM, said:

Dude you’ve proved my point about ignorance and you said you’ve literally never been on one yet you’re commenting about a 25k device.

I’m not talking about some cheap ‘monitor’ I’m talking about Trackman or Flightscope.... full data radar monitors. They’re not casually used, not in the least.
I taught professionally with one. Nobody is ‘crutching’ on path and attack angle and face angle data that they have limited to no access to.

Your swing speed radar and mevo don’t even provide that level of data Helts.


So, I played professionally for a long while and taught for a short while. In those endeavors I developed many wonderful relationships with the other pros in my area.

Fast forward a few years and I’m just a working stiff. I am an IT guy. As such, I consult with my pro friends on their technology setups for teaching. In return for my “consulting” we go play golf or I bring out some friends. Whatever.

In any event, I’ve seen every setup under the sun and help set them up. Indoor, outdoor. Yep I’ve done that. Which is about as far from “you’ve never seen one in use” as possible.

Again, my comments in this thread are about average golfers using launch monitors on the range. Which is what this thread is about. If you want to argue about DJ dialing in his wedges with his trackman or DeChambeau using his Mevo and his X3 to do what he does, you’ll get no argument from me.

I’ve got no bone to pick with you. You disagree with my opinion? be my guest. I’m ok with that. Just try to stick to what you know rather than what you think you know.
I’m debating with you because you replied to a comment I made ( which wasn’t directed at you) and compared Trackman to swing speed radar. Comical.

You also previously commented on your skill level of +3 and said you’ve never been on a launch monitor indoor or out. Your words.

You’re now saying you’ve “set up” all these systems up for your pro friends ( which don’t require any IT at all... literally none, just a WiFi connection).

So you set up all these systems  yet you proudly dismiss it? I’m sorry bud... I disagree with most of what you’re claiming because I too played ( attempted really) professionally way before any of this tech came out and have 100% used it to make myself as well as others better players. That I know.

I like you. I probably shouldn’t but I do.

What’s got you so invested in launch monitors that you feel compelled to duck and dive around nipping at the corners of what I have to say with innuendo and outright falsehoods?

You’re being intellectually dishonest and I can’t understand why you’d go through the effort?
WTF are you talking about? Intellectually dishonest? Golfers don’t rely on these and aren’t being hindered period. They’re tools used to assist better players. Aside from trying to hit up deliberately , they’ve done nothing but help players understand how to get better. I’m speaking from experience.

26

#57 tokeyb

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:34 PM

'Bout time to lock this one up I think. OP has the info he was looking for, we are devolving.

Good luck OP - let us know if you take the plunge and how it works out. In a different thread.
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#58 augustgolf

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:59 PM

View Posttokeyb, on 06 January 2019 - 09:34 PM, said:

'Bout time to lock this one up I think. OP has the info he was looking for, we are devolving.

Good luck OP - let us know if you take the plunge and how it works out. In a different thread.
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#59 Krt22

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:07 PM

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

It amazes me how naive folks are who haven’t had access to or are aren’t familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s can’t possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. It’s amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... that’s where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create ‘iron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditions’. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you don’t have control, and or don’t understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. That’s why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.

I am quite certain, in my case at least, that it isn’t naÔvetť nor ignorance. My point is this: a launch monitor is neither a path to success nor a fix. It is a tool and like all great craftsman, the ones that are good know the tool does not the craftsman make.

I also feel very strongly that dependence on a launch monitor to give you data can (please note I said can) limit or hinder a players on course ability to diagnose, troubleshoot and fix a problem on the fly. Which of course, is vital to scoring well.
.

I largely disagree. I actually think it's the opposite, launch monitors actually make it easier to understand and diagnose a miss since a lot of amatuers still fundamentally misunderstand the ball flight laws. Using a monitor along with professional help let's someone see exactly what's going on at impact and why. You can try a feel and instantly see how it effects impact conditions. If you understand the impact conditions that result in wayward shots, you can then go to your bag of feels to self correct during a round.

Threy no means replace practice or professionals, but they can be eye openers for the typical stubborn amatuer that thinks they know more than their instructor.

29

#60 b.helts

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:21 PM

View PostKrt22, on 06 January 2019 - 10:07 PM, said:

View Postb.helts, on 05 January 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

View PostPutterKilledTheDream, on 05 January 2019 - 04:04 PM, said:

It amazes me how naive folks are who havenít had access to or are arenít familiar with the many facets of radar technology.

If anything, range ball or not, having extremely accurate data to give a player yardage gaps and carry #s canít possibly hurt anybody or create a dependency on the monitor. Itís amazing how few golfers actually even know their true carry numbers.

Now in regards to the club data and swing geometry stuff...... thatís where IMO a lot of stuff went off the rails initially with the AoA nonsense and trying to create Ďiron Byron vacuum perfect world launch conditionsí. Monte commented about this in another thread and was spot on, and I saw the exact same thing many years ago when this stuff was still relatively unknown. People get carried away with chasing launch/spin combos that typically worsen their swings.

Once a player understands how the variables of the swing.... the swing path and face stuff lead to certain ballflights...... it becomes extremely easy to make the adjustments assuming you have certain fundamental control of moving the club. If you donít have control, and or donít understand or are confused at how those variables work, the monitor stuff is useless. Thatís why you typically only see very advanced players and tour pros using these machines. Not only are they dialing in there gear but they can see if the swing is getting loose and can make adjustments. Their not learning how to swing by numbers.

I am quite certain, in my case at least, that it isnít naÔvetť nor ignorance. My point is this: a launch monitor is neither a path to success nor a fix. It is a tool and like all great craftsman, the ones that are good know the tool does not the craftsman make.

I also feel very strongly that dependence on a launch monitor to give you data can (please note I said can) limit or hinder a players on course ability to diagnose, troubleshoot and fix a problem on the fly. Which of course, is vital to scoring well.
.

I largely disagree. I actually think it's the opposite, launch monitors actually make it easier to understand and diagnose a miss since a lot of amatuers still fundamentally misunderstand the ball flight laws. Using a monitor along with professional help let's someone see exactly what's going on at impact and why. You can try a feel and instantly see how it effects impact conditions. If you understand the impact conditions that result in wayward shots, you can then go to your bag of feels to self correct during a round.

Threy no means replace practice or professionals, but they can be eye openers for the typical stubborn amatuer that thinks they know more than their instructor.

I agree that your scenario is possible. 100% launch monitors have helped a lot of players. They are invaluable tools for instructors.

I have never and would never say differently.

But the Original Post in this thread is about a guy going solo to the range with his launch monitor. Thatís what Iím opining on.


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