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Meta-Awareness Learning

metagolf meta awareness jim waldron

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#61 FourTops

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:39 PM

One added post....in the book Golf My Way, Nicklaus wrote about picturing every shot...the height...the feel, etc.  Sure sounds to me like some sort of awareness...or shutting down "do this...do that" internal instructions...with the goal of letting his body figure out the result.


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#62 jbw749

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:54 PM

View PostFourTops, on 19 November 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

Ok some of you folks...you're WAY over-thinking meta-awareness...LOL!  Oh the irony!  And to the above post....random thoughts often lead to major process improvements in manufacturing or any process-driven environments.  Deja Vu...YES!  Or how about sitting somewhere and you feel like someone is looking at you....and then you turn and someone IS LOOKING AT YOU?  Explain that one.  Or you decide to call someone randomly and you pick up your phone and they're calling you?  How about twins who claim to have mental telepathy with the other?  

Now let's get into golf terms....

How about the par 3 where there's water on the right...and despite how far you line-up left, you hit into the water?  Or the tee shot on a fairway that no matter how far right you line up you pull the shot OB left?  Or how about the two foot putt for birdie that goes wide right or short....after sinking 100 in a row on the putting green 20 minutes earlier?   How about thinking about the difficulty of the next hole before finishing the current hole?

And most often found....why do folks think a new set of irons will somehow "improve" their swing?  Here's my explanation...they are actually employing their own brand of mental awareness by thinking a new club is yet unfamiliar with their bad swing....thus the club will be fooled into hitting better shots.
New clubs is is an easy one, self 1 has to blame something or someone every chance it gets.



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#63 jbw749

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:56 PM

Start watching and listening to people. It's easy to see who's lives are dominated by the ego. If you see someone throwing clubs, blaming the wind, constantly talking to themselves, making excuses and my favorite telling you they dont remember the last time they played this bad then they are not using Meta-Awareness.


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#64 FourTops

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:57 PM

View Postjbw749, on 19 November 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 19 November 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

Ok some of you folks...you're WAY over-thinking meta-awareness...LOL!  Oh the irony!  And to the above post....random thoughts often lead to major process improvements in manufacturing or any process-driven environments.  Deja Vu...YES!  Or how about sitting somewhere and you feel like someone is looking at you....and then you turn and someone IS LOOKING AT YOU?  Explain that one.  Or you decide to call someone randomly and you pick up your phone and they're calling you?  How about twins who claim to have mental telepathy with the other?  

Now let's get into golf terms....

How about the par 3 where there's water on the right...and despite how far you line-up left, you hit into the water?  Or the tee shot on a fairway that no matter how far right you line up you pull the shot OB left?  Or how about the two foot putt for birdie that goes wide right or short....after sinking 100 in a row on the putting green 20 minutes earlier?   How about thinking about the difficulty of the next hole before finishing the current hole?

And most often found....why do folks think a new set of irons will somehow "improve" their swing?  Here's my explanation...they are actually employing their own brand of mental awareness by thinking a new club is yet unfamiliar with their bad swing....thus the club will be fooled into hitting better shots.
New clubs is is an easy one, self 1 has to blame something or someone every chance it gets.

OMG!  GREAT POST!  So TRUE!  Self 1 tells Self 2 the clubs suck...and Self 2 is beaten into submission....then Self 1, after 3 rounds says..."SEE you WASTED all that money...I told you to get the other clubs!".  LOL!

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#65 Railroading13

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:07 PM

Love this thread! Meta in this sense means "something of higher order, or beyond" so meta awareness is beyond awareness, and is "being"

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#66 FourTops

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 10:12 PM

View PostRailroading13, on 19 November 2018 - 10:07 PM, said:

Love this thread! Meta in this sense means "something of higher order, or beyond" so meta awareness is beyond awareness, and is "being"

Be the ball

You're still in control...don't worry.

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#67 jbw749

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.






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#68 Tanner25

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM.


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#69 jbw749

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 09:12 AM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Absolutely! But it's different it's more intuitive and it's hard to explain.  I'll try later after work.  It's a ridiculously good question. I'll get back to this.

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#70 oikos1

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 12:16 PM

View Postjbw749, on 19 November 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

Start watching and listening to people. It's easy to see who's lives are dominated by the ego. If you see someone throwing clubs, blaming the wind, constantly talking to themselves, making excuses and my favorite telling you they dont remember the last time they played this bad then they are not using Meta-Awareness.

This may be true, and it may also have zero relevance to the quality of golf that they play.  Tour players throw and bang clubs.  Gary player said he always blamed a poor shot on something else, be it the wind or a rock or the earths rotation.  Trevino constantly talked to himself and anyone else that would listen. There are stories that Nicklaus still says he never missed a three foot putt.  That's some ego.

Both good and bad golfers do all of the above.  So if the better golfer is not using "meta-awareness" but they're still kicking everybody's a** on the course, what's happening?   The above are very broad generalizations to determine ones "meta-awareness" and can quickly be confused with an individuals personality or on course demeanor.


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#71 jbw749

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 12:39 PM

View Postoikos1, on 20 November 2018 - 12:16 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 19 November 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

Start watching and listening to people. It's easy to see who's lives are dominated by the ego. If you see someone throwing clubs, blaming the wind, constantly talking to themselves, making excuses and my favorite telling you they dont remember the last time they played this bad then they are not using Meta-Awareness.

This may be true, and it may also have zero relevance to the quality of golf that they play.  Tour players throw and bang clubs.  Gary player said he always blamed a poor shot on something else, be it the wind or a rock or the earths rotation.  Trevino constantly talked to himself and anyone else that would listen. There are stories that Nicklaus still says he never missed a three foot putt.  That's some ego.

Both good and bad golfers do all of the above.  So if the better golfer is not using "meta-awareness" but they're still kicking everybody's a** on the course, what's happening?   The above are very broad generalizations to determine ones "meta-awareness" and can quickly be confused with an individuals personality or on course demeanor.

Most people are not using Meta-Awareness including tour pros. They have just been playing since little kids they learned golf like people learn to walk. Most don't have that luxury and need to figure out ways to use the subconscious later in life.

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#72 Tanner25

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 06:06 PM

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Absolutely! But it's different it's more intuitive and it's hard to explain.  I'll try later after work.  It's a ridiculously good question. I'll get back to this.

Cool, I look forward to your comments!

12

#73 FourTops

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 07:49 PM

An OP posted that the swing starts with hip rotation....100% correct IMO.  But here's my follow-up question:  Why do folks who play golf even have to state such an obvious movement?  Let's face it, when we learn to throw a baseball from 3rd to 1st base, we don't stand there like a statue with a moving arm...we naturally rotate our hips and torso, nearly facing our belt buckle at 1st base upon release.

Some folks may disagree....but the reason folks have to think about truly basic things like "hip rotation first" is because in golf the ball is just sitting there....not moving...so it's very easy to perceive hitting the ball requires arms, and in our minds that leads to the club head playing a major role in good & bad results.  So many swings "end" at the ball, with top-speed well before the ball because in many folks minds hitting the ball is the "end of the process".

Edited by FourTops, 20 November 2018 - 07:50 PM.


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#74 oikos1

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 07:58 PM

View PostFourTops, on 20 November 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

An OP posted that the swing starts with hip rotation....100% correct IMO.  But here's my follow-up question:  Why do folks who play golf even have to state such an obvious movement?  Let's face it, when we learn to throw a baseball from 3rd to 1st base, we don't stand there like a statue with a moving arm...we naturally rotate our hips and torso, nearly facing our belt buckle at 1st base upon release.

Some folks may disagree....but the reason folks have to think about truly basic things like "hip rotation first" is because in golf the ball is just sitting there....not moving...so it's very easy to perceive hitting the ball requires arms, and in our minds that leads to the club head playing a major role in good & bad results.  So many swings "end" at the ball, with top-speed well before the ball because in many folks minds hitting the ball is the "end of the process".
Oh, the irony.

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#75 FourTops

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:02 PM

View Postoikos1, on 20 November 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 20 November 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

An OP posted that the swing starts with hip rotation....100% correct IMO.  But here's my follow-up question:  Why do folks who play golf even have to state such an obvious movement?  Let's face it, when we learn to throw a baseball from 3rd to 1st base, we don't stand there like a statue with a moving arm...we naturally rotate our hips and torso, nearly facing our belt buckle at 1st base upon release.

Some folks may disagree....but the reason folks have to think about truly basic things like "hip rotation first" is because in golf the ball is just sitting there....not moving...so it's very easy to perceive hitting the ball requires arms, and in our minds that leads to the club head playing a major role in good & bad results.  So many swings "end" at the ball, with top-speed well before the ball because in many folks minds hitting the ball is the "end of the process".
Oh, the irony.

What irony?  Explaining how to walk down stairs or throw a baseball?


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#76 Tanner25

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:24 PM

View PostFourTops, on 20 November 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

An OP posted that the swing starts with hip rotation....100% correct IMO.  But here's my follow-up question:  Why do folks who play golf even have to state such an obvious movement?  Let's face it, when we learn to throw a baseball from 3rd to 1st base, we don't stand there like a statue with a moving arm...we naturally rotate our hips and torso, nearly facing our belt buckle at 1st base upon release.

Some folks may disagree....but the reason folks have to think about truly basic things like "hip rotation first" is because in golf the ball is just sitting there....not moving...so it's very easy to perceive hitting the ball requires arms, and in our minds that leads to the club head playing a major role in good & bad results.  So many swings "end" at the ball, with top-speed well before the ball because in many folks minds hitting the ball is the "end of the process".

This argument has been made before. I don't think it is that simple. I wish it was. If it was as simple like hitting a backhand in tennis, I would be a much better golfer.

16

#77 FourTops

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:33 PM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 20 November 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

An OP posted that the swing starts with hip rotation....100% correct IMO.  But here's my follow-up question:  Why do folks who play golf even have to state such an obvious movement?  Let's face it, when we learn to throw a baseball from 3rd to 1st base, we don't stand there like a statue with a moving arm...we naturally rotate our hips and torso, nearly facing our belt buckle at 1st base upon release.

Some folks may disagree....but the reason folks have to think about truly basic things like "hip rotation first" is because in golf the ball is just sitting there....not moving...so it's very easy to perceive hitting the ball requires arms, and in our minds that leads to the club head playing a major role in good & bad results.  So many swings "end" at the ball, with top-speed well before the ball because in many folks minds hitting the ball is the "end of the process".

This argument has been made before. I don't think it is that simple. I wish it was. If it was as simple like hitting a backhand in tennis, I would be a much better golfer.

You now introduced a new dynamic of a reaction to a ball coming at someone at varying speeds, for which a ball can jump up with topspin, another can skid with underspin...and the other comes normal without spin.  Now combine that with your ability to react and get into position in short-order to respond.  Otherwise, the ball sits there in golf for you to think about.  The two are not equal.

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#78 jbw749

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 08:44 PM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Swing thoughts like starting the swing from the ground up are ok for learning, but it's really important to not have an expectation that if you do it it will work. Because if you have a few shots where it doesn't you will start to doubt. If that happens learning  mode is off. Think about how hard it would be to learn something in any other part of life if you doubted you could. If your trying a new move in the present there is no doubt or false sense that you've figured it all out.
If you start the swing from the ground up while in the present your SC can actually feel it and adjust.
Feel things without judging them. Learning mode will be on.  
If you start striping it don't give yourself a false sense that you've now figured out golf. That sets up failure. Stay content, you'll learn what works and why.

Ideally after it's learned you should not think about it at all. The golf swing is a subconscious action. But some people can play pretty good or great (few relatively speaking) by talking to body parts and using complex swing thoughts hitting positions so they think that must be the right way, because Jordan Spieth can talk to himself all day and still play excellent. They're just aren't that many outstanding golfers and there's hardly any who picked it up later in life. I think lack of Meta-Awareness is the reason why.




18

#79 FourTops

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 09:03 PM

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Swing thoughts like starting the swing from the ground up are ok for learning, but it's really important to not have an expectation that if you do it it will work. Because if you have a few shots where it doesn't you will start to doubt. If that happens learning  mode is off. Think about how hard it would be to learn something in any other part of life if you doubted you could. If your trying a new move in the present there is no doubt or false sense that you've figured it all out.
If you start the swing from the ground up while in the present your SC can actually feel it and adjust.
Feel things without judging them. Learning mode will be on.  
If you start striping it don't give yourself a false sense that you've now figured out golf. That sets up failure. Stay content, you'll learn what works and why.

Ideally after it's learned you should not think about it at all. The golf swing is a subconscious action. But some people can play pretty good or great (few relatively speaking) by talking to body parts and using complex swing thoughts hitting positions so they think that must be the right way, because Jordan Spieth can talk to himself all day and still play excellent. They're just aren't that many outstanding golfers and there's hardly any who picked it up later in life. I think lack of Meta-Awareness is the reason why.

JBW...maybe think about the "later in life" is a detriment.  I think what happens is as folks age, they become set in their ways....their minds are used to controlling events, activities, kids, job, you name it.  So when they get to golf, they apply the same logic to control the outcome.  They truly believe they're one tip away from "I've got this" based on other life experiences.  I for one have recently learned to pick a swing, like Couple's (because my natural swing is close to his positions)....and stick with that thought...or the "movie" in my head.  I figured out that trying to "be in control" of results ends-up being "out of control".  I can pick up a rock and skip it across a pond...but as soon as I try to control the movement, the rock doesn't skip.

19

#80 FourTops

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 09:16 PM

Have any of you figured out to how do A or B swing fix...what are in reality very simple new moves....in increments...and a person or teacher says "that's IT...you got IT!"...then you take a full-swing and on video you discover you didn't come CLOSE to doing A or B?  It was your old swing?

I call this "brain-override".  It's like a "default" program that takes over.  It's like the brain says "yeah yeah, nice try...but that's not how WE swing!".  

Any takers?  I'd like someone to even attempt to explain that phenomenon.

Edited by FourTops, 20 November 2018 - 09:16 PM.


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#81 Tanner25

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 09:38 PM

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Swing thoughts like starting the swing from the ground up are ok for learning, but it's really important to not have an expectation that if you do it it will work. Because if you have a few shots where it doesn't you will start to doubt. If that happens learning  mode is off. Think about how hard it would be to learn something in any other part of life if you doubted you could. If your trying a new move in the present there is no doubt or false sense that you've figured it all out.
If you start the swing from the ground up while in the present your SC can actually feel it and adjust.
Feel things without judging them. Learning mode will be on.  
If you start striping it don't give yourself a false sense that you've now figured out golf. That sets up failure. Stay content, you'll learn what works and why.

Ideally after it's learned you should not think about it at all. The golf swing is a subconscious action. But some people can play pretty good or great (few relatively speaking) by talking to body parts and using complex swing thoughts hitting positions so they think that must be the right way, because Jordan Spieth can talk to himself all day and still play excellent. They're just aren't that many outstanding golfers and there's hardly any who picked it up later in life. I think lack of Meta-Awareness is the reason why.

Thanks, for the post. I am guilty of just giving up after a few swings. Heck, I know it takes me 6 months to get used to a new club. Yet for some reason, I expect an instant result when trying something new.

21

#82 FourTops

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 09:43 PM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Swing thoughts like starting the swing from the ground up are ok for learning, but it's really important to not have an expectation that if you do it it will work. Because if you have a few shots where it doesn't you will start to doubt. If that happens learning  mode is off. Think about how hard it would be to learn something in any other part of life if you doubted you could. If your trying a new move in the present there is no doubt or false sense that you've figured it all out.
If you start the swing from the ground up while in the present your SC can actually feel it and adjust.
Feel things without judging them. Learning mode will be on.  
If you start striping it don't give yourself a false sense that you've now figured out golf. That sets up failure. Stay content, you'll learn what works and why.

Ideally after it's learned you should not think about it at all. The golf swing is a subconscious action. But some people can play pretty good or great (few relatively speaking) by talking to body parts and using complex swing thoughts hitting positions so they think that must be the right way, because Jordan Spieth can talk to himself all day and still play excellent. They're just aren't that many outstanding golfers and there's hardly any who picked it up later in life. I think lack of Meta-Awareness is the reason why.

Thanks, for the post. I am guilty of just giving up after a few swings. Heck, I know it takes me 6 months to get used to a new club. Yet for some reason, I expect an instant result when trying something new.

I play the piano fairly well....I can tell you that my mood resonates in my playing.  If I'm distracted, I stink.  So I end up clearing my mind by playing scales...the equivalent of reaffirming my golf "feel points" with my eyes closed.  I sound like a nutball...but it's similar to meditation to clear the mind of negative thoughts.

22

#83 Tanner25

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 10:11 PM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Swing thoughts like starting the swing from the ground up are ok for learning, but it's really important to not have an expectation that if you do it it will work. Because if you have a few shots where it doesn't you will start to doubt. If that happens learning  mode is off. Think about how hard it would be to learn something in any other part of life if you doubted you could. If your trying a new move in the present there is no doubt or false sense that you've figured it all out.
If you start the swing from the ground up while in the present your SC can actually feel it and adjust.
Feel things without judging them. Learning mode will be on.  
If you start striping it don't give yourself a false sense that you've now figured out golf. That sets up failure. Stay content, you'll learn what works and why.

Ideally after it's learned you should not think about it at all. The golf swing is a subconscious action. But some people can play pretty good or great (few relatively speaking) by talking to body parts and using complex swing thoughts hitting positions so they think that must be the right way, because Jordan Spieth can talk to himself all day and still play excellent. They're just aren't that many outstanding golfers and there's hardly any who picked it up later in life. I think lack of Meta-Awareness is the reason why.

Thanks, for the post. I am guilty of just giving up after a few swings. Heck, I know it takes me 6 months to get used to a new club. Yet for some reason, I expect an instant result when trying something new.



Deepak Chopra says, meta - awareness is the awareness of awareness.


http://www.golfwrx.c...he-golf-course/


#1 from the above post. Many times, golfers lose focus without even realizing it. They will be on autopilot thinking about something from the past or in the future without any awareness that they are even doing it. Just learning to become aware of when your mind shifts out of the present is often enough to help it get back into the moment.

Edited by Tanner25, 20 November 2018 - 10:37 PM.


23

#84 Nard_S

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 04:20 AM

View PostFourTops, on 20 November 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

Have any of you figured out to how do A or B swing fix...what are in reality very simple new moves....in increments...and a person or teacher says "that's IT...you got IT!"...then you take a full-swing and on video you discover you didn't come CLOSE to doing A or B?  It was your old swing?

I call this "brain-override".  It's like a "default" program that takes over.  It's like the brain says "yeah yeah, nice try...but that's not how WE swing!".  

Any takers? I'd like someone to even attempt to explain that phenomenon.

Human mind does operate on flash memory. There's a sizable part of brain that regulates, automates and refines movements in chunks and macros, a re-write of those cannot be done in by delete and re-compile. The memory has to die a slow death and re-write goes through birth and adolescence. It is not the judge if it's actually correct but it will seek efficiency of move.When you learn a new move, the conscious and that part of the unconscious is very active but the firing of nerve signals and such are naturally slower. Over time & reps as macro cements in memory is becomes automatic, but once there, to change or alter it becomes highly problematic.

Being aware that the  body and good part of mind does not understand or run on conscious thought in the very fist place has been a positive for me. There's an I/O interface between the conscious and unconscious, higher language to low language to facilitate efficient and automatic use of mind, body, and it's functions. Feedback back to the conscious also goes thru this interface. So if the conscious is barking commands or micro managing it is impeding the process. Right brained thinking, like visualization is brain working in machine code or low level language.. It's rather efficient. Saying "don't go OTT here" is not. Visualization and recall of sensory feels to execute a shot is better route because you are tapping into fast thinking, unconscious side, where the golf swing resides anyway. Re-directing conscious nano-watts to make the process go better by paying attention, being in the moment, truly listening and reserving it's clout till it's the wiser is part of awareness too.

24

#85 Millbrook

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 04:39 AM

View PostFourTops, on 20 November 2018 - 09:16 PM, said:

Have any of you figured out to how do A or B swing fix...what are in reality very simple new moves....in increments...and a person or teacher says "that's IT...you got IT!"...then you take a full-swing and on video you discover you didn't come CLOSE to doing A or B?  It was your old swing?

I call this "brain-override".  It's like a "default" program that takes over.  It's like the brain says "yeah yeah, nice try...but that's not how WE swing!".  

Any takers?  I'd like someone to even attempt to explain that phenomenon.

I'll give you a view.

Firstly lets acknowledge that a movement pattern becomes ingrained so it's a physical default programme as well as a mental one. Your SC knows how to make the best shot at hitting the ball despite ingrained physical limitations in the swing. We all acknowledge the benefit of slo mo practice to over ride the old and reprogramme a new method.

Using the Gallwey terminology Self 1 wants to control so his approach is to occupy Self 1 with a task and let Self 2 do it's stuff.

I would propose that in the example you have given the coach becomes Self 1 and you give up control because of the external feedback you are getting. My coach will regularly ask me 'how did that feel'. Getting the move into feel channel as JW calls it.

Under the guidance of the coach - External Self 1 - you achieve it but it has not become ingrained so as soon as you regain control of Self 1 you revert to the old pattern. That's why you have to go away and practice, practice and practice.

All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

25

#86 Millbrook

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 04:50 AM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner

The swing thought which works best for me is trail elbow to hip. If I do this the lower body moves first. If I think lower body first my arms disconnect and I hit big pushes.

My PSR may include the thought trail elbow to hip but in executing a practice swing I do it after thinking of the swing thought, emptying my mind and trying  to feel it. Then reproduce the feel in the actual swing.

The controlling part has been allowed to have his say but meta awareness allows me to be aware that it needs to be quiet when I swing.

The problem I have which others may recognise is taking a new swing idea to the course and letting Self 1 be in control. A poor round is inevitable.

Edited by Millbrook, 21 November 2018 - 04:52 AM.

All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

26

#87 jbw749

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 07:11 AM

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 10:11 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 20 November 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 20 November 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can take Meta-Awareness too far. Early on I would play entire rounds of golf never letting the talker in and thus never judging or letting the ego take credit for anything. This was stress free, but it also was bland and I wasn't sure it I had fun or not. I enjoyed being outdoors more than the golf. Your senses are heightened when you're in the present.

So I'm developing something in the middle. Before the shot I still strategize on potential danger and outcomes, but during PSR I begin the process of being content with the outcome. By the time I start the swing I have got to a place where results are irrelevant. I'm in the now, past and future mean nothing. Here the subconscious will max out my current skill level. The place where I'm trying to advance my personal learning is the following:

**Only if I'm in the present can I recognize if a bad shot was technical or mental**

After each shot of swinging in the present a heightened sense of why things are happening the way they are starts to form. It excels learning.

This is so much different than the way people approach the game that I understand the resistance. But it works and in terms of golf learning, can be learned in a very short period of time.

So if you want to beat your chest and feed the ego, do it, but base it on how well you won the mental game. The good golf will be a result.

jbw749,

I think it is mostly thought that, the downswing must start with the lower body first. Whether that is achieved through a hip bump or even an upper body move to force the lower to move is another story. Can one stay in the present without thought and still achieve this lower body move without actively (self talk) commanding a body part to move? Thx Tanner
Swing thoughts like starting the swing from the ground up are ok for learning, but it's really important to not have an expectation that if you do it it will work. Because if you have a few shots where it doesn't you will start to doubt. If that happens learning  mode is off. Think about how hard it would be to learn something in any other part of life if you doubted you could. If your trying a new move in the present there is no doubt or false sense that you've figured it all out.
If you start the swing from the ground up while in the present your SC can actually feel it and adjust.
Feel things without judging them. Learning mode will be on.  
If you start striping it don't give yourself a false sense that you've now figured out golf. That sets up failure. Stay content, you'll learn what works and why.

Ideally after it's learned you should not think about it at all. The golf swing is a subconscious action. But some people can play pretty good or great (few relatively speaking) by talking to body parts and using complex swing thoughts hitting positions so they think that must be the right way, because Jordan Spieth can talk to himself all day and still play excellent. They're just aren't that many outstanding golfers and there's hardly any who picked it up later in life. I think lack of Meta-Awareness is the reason why.

Thanks, for the post. I am guilty of just giving up after a few swings. Heck, I know it takes me 6 months to get used to a new club. Yet for some reason, I expect an instant result when trying something new.



Deepak Chopra says, meta - awareness is the awareness of awareness.


http://www.golfwrx.c...he-golf-course/


#1 from the above post. Many times, golfers lose focus without even realizing it. They will be on autopilot thinking about something from the past or in the future without any awareness that they are even doing it. Just learning to become aware of when your mind shifts out of the present is often enough to help it get back into the moment.
Tanner,

Great find. This article describes almost verbatim what I'm talking about.  The breathing is huge, it's a great task for self 1. And it becomes natural, meaning eventually self one knows exactly how to control breathing to best assist self 2.

Also this is important not to give up on. If you stick with it a day could come where it all turns around. Just playing a round of golf or a range session focused on when your mind goes to the past or future is HUGE. Stay in the present as much as possible and find your own niche. Dont worry if you cant do it all the time. It gets easier. And you'll be doing it 100% of the time more than the people around you.
A great way to start learning it is hit shots at the range and tie no emotion to the result. Remember that's good or bad.
I'll never forget the day I figured it out. I was hitting shots and found the more content I was with the outcome the better I striped it. You need to be content right at impact too. This is the antithesis of a Flinch or a yip.

Now here's why I hate swing thoughts:

***It's very difficult if not impossible to command body parts into positions during the swing and not expect some sort of a result, if you expect a result you are not content***

I would say if your anywhere from scratch to about a 15 handicap you already possess enough skill to stripe it without internal swing thoughts. It's your job to find out how good you really are. Then get lessons and apply them after you understand how to stay in the present. Otherwise waste of money.

Edited by jbw749, 21 November 2018 - 07:12 AM.


27

#88 Tanner25

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 07:55 AM

Thanks, jbw749. Good stuff. Is there a way of easing into this or a compromise? Such as use the swing throught (aka swing from the ground up) as apart of the PSR (as suggested by Millbrook), then let it go staying in the present and swinging or is it better to get rid of these former thoughts completely? Thx, Tanner

Edited by Tanner25, 21 November 2018 - 07:56 AM.


28

#89 Millbrook

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 09:17 AM

View PostTanner25, on 21 November 2018 - 07:55 AM, said:

Thanks, jbw749. Good stuff. Is there a way of easing into this or a compromise? Such as use the swing throught (aka swing from the ground up) as apart of the PSR (as suggested by Millbrook), then let it go staying in the present and swinging or is it better to get rid of these former thoughts completely? Thx, Tanner

Tanner if I may leap in before jbw replies.

I'm not sure if it is possible to get rid of the thoughts completely. Certainly not in the beginning. To me meta awareness is having a watcher in your head 'who' is aware of your thinking and therefore helps to remove you from it to some extent.

For example a car cuts me up and I think 'bl00dy woman driver' - watcher notes the sexist element of the remark even though factually the driver was a woman. Instead of saying to my wife the exact thought I say 'what a bad driver' because the observation by the Watcher makes me alert that the thought had a sexist element.

Let us imagine that Self 1 is the logical analytical part. You are a PW away from the green but in the first cut with a tree with overhanging branches in the way. Self 1 says hood the face of a 6 iron, punch it out and run it up to the front of the green. Self 1 has done his job and has analysed the situation well. It may be that a scratch player would pick the 6 iron out automatically because of their experience and not need the thought process - I don't know because I'm not that good.

However what we don't want is Self 1 saying during the swing - 'hood the club, swing half back, punch it out near the front of the green. Not too hard or you'll be in the bunker'.

In the beginning I would just concentrate on being aware of your internal dialogue, when it occurs and what it says. If it's too loud and/or persistent imagine you have a radio dial, turn it down and concentrate on your breathing. Begin doing this in life outside of golf.
All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

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#90 Nard_S

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 09:35 AM

A flip of hierarchy, a re-alignment of who is in charge is part of this. A letting go by the commanding, domineering ego conscious and an elevation the unconscious is part of this. The org chart is not so vertical, it gets flattened or even inverted. Conscious serves the unconscious which is polar opposite of much of our day to day.


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