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Meta-Awareness Learning

metagolf meta awareness jim waldron

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#31 oikos1

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM

View PostFourTops, on 17 November 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 17 November 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 17 November 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I've come to buy into this stuff a lot more this year. Have not played nor practiced as much but my anti-cap and duration of quality play is much better.Used to take 100 balls at the range to fall into this but I can do it much faster now, just by the awareness. I have a  somewhat different view of it though. I channel the a****** in my head to go into an observatory mode. It tunes in and dispassionately, patiently connects dots of feels and results. So it is actually quite active and yet apart. It's the audience and the body is the artist. It's the caddy helping the player. It never dictates but it is there to consult. I work on my swing incessantly but I no longer go scatter shot with fixes or jump down rabbit holes. So right brain is dominant but left assesses and after digesting patterns tweaks can easily be executed. All in all, I'm a lot more patient, happy, more in the moment and get more out of play and practice.

I'm not satisfied to "just swing my swing" because I did that and hit wall at 6-7 cap for years. I need an avenue where I can trade up my game. So I blend this yin and yang and use meta-awareness to facilitate it. A deeper anchoring of all aspects to this is where I'm heading this off season.I'm twice the golfer technique wise than 3 years ago but mental maturity has always been lacking and lagging. Honing in on the "meta" will hopefully fix that.

That makes perfect sense to me. For me it felt like a roll reversal. The a-hole was no longer in charge, instead it now just observes for the subconscious and during the swing it focuses on something external.

Say what?  You have an a-hole that is no longer in charge in your head?  Why did it choose just to observe, or did you put it in it's place?  Did it only act out when you play golf?  So bizarre...

This is tough for some folks to swallow.  But the "ahole" lives in people's heads in every day life. The ahole tells the young man he's too ugly to ask a girl to dance.  The ahole tells the woman she probably shouldn't bother applying for a job because men dominate the field.  The ahole tells folks they're not good at math, sales, or fixing a car.  The ahole keeps people down...in their place...judgmental.  The ahole is the artificial, self-inflicted boundary for which explains why many folks don't succeed.

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.


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#32 FourTops

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 08:36 PM

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 17 November 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 17 November 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 17 November 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I've come to buy into this stuff a lot more this year. Have not played nor practiced as much but my anti-cap and duration of quality play is much better.Used to take 100 balls at the range to fall into this but I can do it much faster now, just by the awareness. I have a  somewhat different view of it though. I channel the a****** in my head to go into an observatory mode. It tunes in and dispassionately, patiently connects dots of feels and results. So it is actually quite active and yet apart. It's the audience and the body is the artist. It's the caddy helping the player. It never dictates but it is there to consult. I work on my swing incessantly but I no longer go scatter shot with fixes or jump down rabbit holes. So right brain is dominant but left assesses and after digesting patterns tweaks can easily be executed. All in all, I'm a lot more patient, happy, more in the moment and get more out of play and practice.

I'm not satisfied to "just swing my swing" because I did that and hit wall at 6-7 cap for years. I need an avenue where I can trade up my game. So I blend this yin and yang and use meta-awareness to facilitate it. A deeper anchoring of all aspects to this is where I'm heading this off season.I'm twice the golfer technique wise than 3 years ago but mental maturity has always been lacking and lagging. Honing in on the "meta" will hopefully fix that.

That makes perfect sense to me. For me it felt like a roll reversal. The a-hole was no longer in charge, instead it now just observes for the subconscious and during the swing it focuses on something external.

Say what?  You have an a-hole that is no longer in charge in your head?  Why did it choose just to observe, or did you put it in it's place?  Did it only act out when you play golf?  So bizarre...

This is tough for some folks to swallow.  But the "ahole" lives in people's heads in every day life. The ahole tells the young man he's too ugly to ask a girl to dance.  The ahole tells the woman she probably shouldn't bother applying for a job because men dominate the field.  The ahole tells folks they're not good at math, sales, or fixing a car.  The ahole keeps people down...in their place...judgmental.  The ahole is the artificial, self-inflicted boundary for which explains why many folks don't succeed.

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I don't think it's talking in circles...it's a self-inflicted and self-fulfilling boundary.

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#33 Tanner25

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 08:56 PM

If one successfully quiets the sell talk. Is it ok to have a swing thought? But, do we then not connect the swing thought to success or failure?

Edited by Tanner25, 17 November 2018 - 08:56 PM.


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#34 jbw749

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 10:48 AM

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

View Postjbw749, on 17 November 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 17 November 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I've come to buy into this stuff a lot more this year. Have not played nor practiced as much but my anti-cap and duration of quality play is much better.Used to take 100 balls at the range to fall into this but I can do it much faster now, just by the awareness. I have a  somewhat different view of it though. I channel the a****** in my head to go into an observatory mode. It tunes in and dispassionately, patiently connects dots of feels and results. So it is actually quite active and yet apart. It's the audience and the body is the artist. It's the caddy helping the player. It never dictates but it is there to consult. I work on my swing incessantly but I no longer go scatter shot with fixes or jump down rabbit holes. So right brain is dominant but left assesses and after digesting patterns tweaks can easily be executed. All in all, I'm a lot more patient, happy, more in the moment and get more out of play and practice.

I'm not satisfied to "just swing my swing" because I did that and hit wall at 6-7 cap for years. I need an avenue where I can trade up my game. So I blend this yin and yang and use meta-awareness to facilitate it. A deeper anchoring of all aspects to this is where I'm heading this off season.I'm twice the golfer technique wise than 3 years ago but mental maturity has always been lacking and lagging. Honing in on the "meta" will hopefully fix that.

That makes perfect sense to me. For me it felt like a roll reversal. The a-hole was no longer in charge, instead it now just observes for the subconscious and during the swing it focuses on something external.

Say what?  You have an a-hole that is no longer in charge in your head?  Why did it choose just to observe, or did you put it in it's place?  Did it only act out when you play golf?  So bizarre...

Had to put in it's place, but first I had to prove the SC was much better at perfoming tasks before it would relinquish control.
Not just with golf it acts out whenever I'm negatively judging something or taking credit for things I don't deserve.

It's the opposite of bizarre and by how much you browse the forum you're bound to get sooner or later.

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#35 Nard_S

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:


Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.


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#36 DavePelz4

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 11:54 AM

View Postjj9000, on 16 November 2018 - 08:18 AM, said:

Still trying to figure out why the word Meta was inserted to this.

Conceptually, Awareness as a standalone, is broad enough to cover the concept.

But, I suppose pseudo-psyco-physio-meta-awareness sounds a bit more profound.

All this new age jaron is jackin' up my Fung Shui...brah.

If you add meta, it enhances the marketing possibilities.

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#37 Millbrook

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 12:17 PM

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

Can you reference the science between fast thinking and slow thinking please.

It's OK I googled it and I don't think it's what you are describing if you are referring to Kahnemans work

Edited by Millbrook, 18 November 2018 - 12:25 PM.

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#38 Nard_S

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 12:37 PM

View PostMillbrook, on 18 November 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

Can you reference the science between fast thinking and slow thinking please.

There's two books that allude to it:  "Blink" and "Thinking Fast and Slow". Both best sellers some years back that I have read. Can also highly recommend "Sapiens" which I'm currently reading. All 3 approach this in differing ways, The 1st is sociological, the 2nd more neuro based the 3rd anthropological and is disturbingly profound about the "meta" of humanity. Btw, I do not find that term pseudo or new age at all. "Meta-data" is a term commonly used in programming  field of computer coding something of which I have very limited know how about but had come across it quite a bit when I did study the topic.

Edited by Nard_S, 18 November 2018 - 12:39 PM.


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#39 FourTops

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 12:47 PM

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

I gotta say that is one darn good overview, like a book.  What stuck out was "slow-thinking" vs. "fast".  You mentioned that musicians  "lose themselves" while performing.  I can say first-hand that's spot on.  When I play a difficult piece, I actually "let go" from thinking about playing because the speed required to play FAR exceeds the brain's ability to dish-out "instructions".  Each time I find myself "trying to think" I slow down,and make stupid mistakes.  To play well I almost feel like I'm not playing, someone else has taken over.

Slow vs. fast thinking is the #1 issue that affects a golf swing. Teaching the basic "positions" is fine, like learning scales on the piano, but it not careful, it can become ingrained by applying slow-thinking during a full-swing, which is the equivalent of ruining a piano piece with slow-thinking.  We've all heard pro's say they played "out of their minds", but people skip past what they're really saying....they weren't slow-thinking.

An example of this is all too often when I need to draw or fade the ball, 90% of my thought process is "hey body....let's hit a draw", and 10% is setup.  Why?  Because the body knows what to do, so there's no point in constant re-instruction. It's also why I don't use a laser very often on the course....the laser's "exact" yardage  intrinsically promotes tension...incites the brain to over-think 129.3 yards vs. hitting to the center of the green, knowing I've got +/- 15 yards of cushion - front/back, side/side, and still be on the green..  Thinking "center" promotes "fast thinking", or maybe "not thinking" at all..."club...green...hit".

And think of NFL QB's.  They have zero time to "slow-think", or if they do they don't make it in the NFL.  There's a boat-load of chaos going on in 2 seconds which is about the time the QB has to think...which is done so by "reaction combined with awareness".  In simple terms, if I toss you a golf ball and ask you to throw it back under-handed, you feel the weight, adjust in your hand, see the distance required, and toss it back.  All of which happens without thinking.  There's no thinking "gee, how do I throw this...what position should I be in...where should my arm be...my leg?".  

It's also why folks tend to hit better on the range.  On the range they tend to utilize fast-thinking because there's no failure outcome.  But on the course the opposite occurs and slow-thinking takes over in attempt to control the outcome during a 1.3 second movement.

Edited by FourTops, 18 November 2018 - 12:48 PM.


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#40 Millbrook

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 02:02 PM

Meta awareness is not fast thinking as described by Kahneman in the book you quote.

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#41 Nard_S

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 02:48 PM

View PostMillbrook, on 18 November 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Meta awareness is not fast thinking as described by Kahneman in the book you quote.
How is not meta to understand and acknowledge how the human mind actually works?

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#42 jbw749

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 08:05 PM

View PostTanner25, on 17 November 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

If one successfully quiets the sell talk. Is it ok to have a swing thought? But, do we then not connect the swing thought to success or failure?
Yes a swing thought would be much more effective without self talk. Hopefully the thought would be on something external like the target or breathing or focusing on a blade of grass. How good an external thought does or doesnt work is based on whether or not it kept the talker occupied while doing it. Experament find and external thought that makes you feel the most content.

If you start commanding body parts at full speed the talker will expect the move to work and if it does work the talker will fear it will stop working especially after a few bad shots. So then you move on to the next swing thought, then the next, ect...


Edited by jbw749, 18 November 2018 - 08:35 PM.


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#43 FourTops

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 08:08 PM

What thought does one have walking across an 18 inch wide plank on the ground?  What thought does one have when walking across the same plank 30 stories high between two buildings?

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#44 oikos1

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 08:51 PM

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

If you truly believe in what you speak, why would you need to be a dick?

As for good vs bad players, you've presented your subjective categorization.  To think that "sub 5" golfers perform at the level of elite athletes or musicians/actors is also questionable at best.
Certainly you must also know that your shining example, Lawrence Taylor, admitted to using cocaine and crack regularly during the 1985 season.

And how does using "characters" explain fast vs slow thinking?  Which one is the a-hole?  The doer? The observer?  What about the lover, the smartass and the blunderer?  How many characters can one have in their head before they're certifiable?

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#45 FourTops

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 09:37 PM

View Postoikos1, on 18 November 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

If you truly believe in what you speak, why would you need to be a dick?

As for good vs bad players, you've presented your subjective categorization.  To think that "sub 5" golfers perform at the level of elite athletes or musicians/actors is also questionable at best.
Certainly you must also know that your shining example, Lawrence Taylor, admitted to using cocaine and crack regularly during the 1985 season.

And how does using "characters" explain fast vs slow thinking?  Which one is the a-hole?  The doer? The observer?  What about the lover, the smartass and the blunderer?  How many characters can one have in their head before they're certifiable?

Sub 5 golfers are called "golf shop managers" in the golf world compared to accomplished musicians or NFL stars.  It doesn't take that much to play scratch golf...otherwise the tour would have 2,333,830 players.  Only a few reach a level of excellence, and even then many "lose it" and never return because their brain wires become disconnected...fried.  We just don't hear about them because it doesn't fit the marketing narrative.  Travel your own path and believe your own beliefs....that's fine.

Edited by FourTops, 18 November 2018 - 09:38 PM.


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#46 oikos1

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 10:00 PM

View PostFourTops, on 18 November 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 18 November 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

If you truly believe in what you speak, why would you need to be a dick?

As for good vs bad players, you've presented your subjective categorization.  To think that "sub 5" golfers perform at the level of elite athletes or musicians/actors is also questionable at best.
Certainly you must also know that your shining example, Lawrence Taylor, admitted to using cocaine and crack regularly during the 1985 season.

And how does using "characters" explain fast vs slow thinking?  Which one is the a-hole?  The doer? The observer?  What about the lover, the smartass and the blunderer?  How many characters can one have in their head before they're certifiable?

Sub 5 golfers are called "golf shop managers" in the golf world compared to accomplished musicians or NFL stars.  It doesn't take that much to play scratch golf...otherwise the tour would have 2,333,830 players.  Only a few reach a level of excellence, and even then many "lose it" and never return because their brain wires become disconnected...fried.  We just don't hear about them because it doesn't fit the marketing narrative.  Travel your own path and believe your own beliefs....that's fine.
I would hope that is what we all do. What's happening in this thread and many of the "mental" threads is that terms and phrases are being thrown around as if gospel or "we all think this way" or this is how "elite people" perform, etc.  It's an incredibly complex topic and I would hope you and everyone else contributing would see nothing wrong with exploring, questioning and challenging ideas and theories so that we can continue to travel our own path with our own beliefs, perhaps for each of us a day wiser.

16

#47 FourTops

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 10:06 PM

View Postoikos1, on 18 November 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 18 November 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 18 November 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

If you truly believe in what you speak, why would you need to be a dick?

As for good vs bad players, you've presented your subjective categorization.  To think that "sub 5" golfers perform at the level of elite athletes or musicians/actors is also questionable at best.
Certainly you must also know that your shining example, Lawrence Taylor, admitted to using cocaine and crack regularly during the 1985 season.

And how does using "characters" explain fast vs slow thinking?  Which one is the a-hole?  The doer? The observer?  What about the lover, the smartass and the blunderer?  How many characters can one have in their head before they're certifiable?

Sub 5 golfers are called "golf shop managers" in the golf world compared to accomplished musicians or NFL stars.  It doesn't take that much to play scratch golf...otherwise the tour would have 2,333,830 players.  Only a few reach a level of excellence, and even then many "lose it" and never return because their brain wires become disconnected...fried.  We just don't hear about them because it doesn't fit the marketing narrative.  Travel your own path and believe your own beliefs....that's fine.
I would hope that is what we all do. What's happening in this thread and many of the "mental" threads is that terms and phrases are being thrown around as if gospel or "we all think this way" or this is how "elite people" perform, etc.  It's an incredibly complex topic and I would hope you and everyone else contributing would see nothing wrong with exploring, questioning and challenging ideas and theories so that we can continue to travel our own path with our own beliefs, perhaps for each of us a day wiser.

Fair enough...it is a complex topic that is not so easy to analyze like we'd like to do.  But so is learning piano, guitar, or ballet.  The main point is the mind is an extremely powerful "helper" or "enemy" in all types of situations.  I think the general point is we can be our own worst enemy.

17

#48 Nard_S

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:01 AM

View Postoikos1, on 18 November 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postoikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

If you truly believe in what you speak, why would you need to be a dick?

As for good vs bad players, you've presented your subjective categorization.  To think that "sub 5" golfers perform at the level of elite athletes or musicians/actors is also questionable at best.
Certainly you must also know that your shining example, Lawrence Taylor, admitted to using cocaine and crack regularly during the 1985 season.

And how does using "characters" explain fast vs slow thinking?  Which one is the a-hole?  The doer? The observer?  What about the lover, the smartass and the blunderer?  How many characters can one have in their head before they're certifiable?

Hah, dick definition comes in many forms but I was thinking the over wrought and lack of brevity one, but there's all knowing and absolutist variety and there's the glib snark type too. Dick 1 Dick2, Dick3
I mentioned sub 5 was my def of good, , I was talking duffer good if I have to spell it out. I was a full time musician late into my 20's, I think I fully understand and have a sober grounded idea what makes for an accomplished artist in music.I was slightly better than "duffer good" there, maybe better than scratch and yet not elite at all..
LT was just an example, could have used a dozen others, the remarkable part is they do not ascribe incredible physical attributes nor insane intelligence, just his balance. I care a lick about his personal failings nor have care about both MJ's or Tiger's or most anybody.
Tagging "characters" to the ego, to the sub-conscious might sound crazy to you but in the end it's just a commonly used construct, perhaps a Western one and if you read my earlier post I I do not care to even use it. Funny irony it's actually used in bestselling book about a mental game for golf! Self 1, Self 2 sound more reasonable? You can buy his book
What we know of how the brain actually works is literally in it's infancy, and we're scratching the surface just now. There's been a multitude of ways to describe and convey it. Right vs left brain, fast vs slow thinking, id, ego, super ego. Probably missing some. There's books on this topic. I've read a few. Whoopie. Meta awareness is as old as Buddism or Taoism. Maybe even Hinduism too. But that's new age whack these days right? So the intense training of Monks and Karate Masters that has been done for thousands can be tossed aside because all they gotta do is "recognize their poor thoughts and make choices"....what do you know Dr. Phil has brought oneness to the billions and they only have to make a choice and they get to give up all that intense meditation and training. Improve at Golf? Watch Oprah. So I plead no contest to being Dick1, not guilty to Dick2 & guilty to Dick3. How's that for awreness? :)

18

#49 jbw749

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 07:31 AM

Great post Nard.

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#50 Millbrook

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:25 PM

View PostNard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

View PostMillbrook, on 18 November 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Meta awareness is not fast thinking as described by Kahneman in the book you quote.
How is not meta to understand and acknowledge how the human mind actually works?

Aren't you confusing meta understanding with meta awareness in this statement?

All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

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#51 alfriday

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 12:54 PM

Regarding quieting inner thoughts/dialogue.  One quick way for many people to limit those thoughts is to put your tongue on the roof of your mouth when you notice them.

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#52 bladehunter

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:39 PM

 oikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

 FourTops, on 17 November 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

 oikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 05:24 PM, said:

 jbw749, on 17 November 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

 Nard_S, on 17 November 2018 - 12:20 PM, said:

I've come to buy into this stuff a lot more this year. Have not played nor practiced as much but my anti-cap and duration of quality play is much better.Used to take 100 balls at the range to fall into this but I can do it much faster now, just by the awareness. I have a  somewhat different view of it though. I channel the a****** in my head to go into an observatory mode. It tunes in and dispassionately, patiently connects dots of feels and results. So it is actually quite active and yet apart. It's the audience and the body is the artist. It's the caddy helping the player. It never dictates but it is there to consult. I work on my swing incessantly but I no longer go scatter shot with fixes or jump down rabbit holes. So right brain is dominant but left assesses and after digesting patterns tweaks can easily be executed. All in all, I'm a lot more patient, happy, more in the moment and get more out of play and practice.

I'm not satisfied to "just swing my swing" because I did that and hit wall at 6-7 cap for years. I need an avenue where I can trade up my game. So I blend this yin and yang and use meta-awareness to facilitate it. A deeper anchoring of all aspects to this is where I'm heading this off season.I'm twice the golfer technique wise than 3 years ago but mental maturity has always been lacking and lagging. Honing in on the "meta" will hopefully fix that.

That makes perfect sense to me. For me it felt like a roll reversal. The a-hole was no longer in charge, instead it now just observes for the subconscious and during the swing it focuses on something external.

Say what?  You have an a-hole that is no longer in charge in your head?  Why did it choose just to observe, or did you put it in it's place?  Did it only act out when you play golf?  So bizarre...

This is tough for some folks to swallow.  But the "ahole" lives in people's heads in every day life. The ahole tells the young man he's too ugly to ask a girl to dance.  The ahole tells the woman she probably shouldn't bother applying for a job because men dominate the field.  The ahole tells folks they're not good at math, sales, or fixing a car.  The ahole keeps people down...in their place...judgmental.  The ahole is the artificial, self-inflicted boundary for which explains why many folks don't succeed.

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

Quite obvious you donít suffer from a constant stream of consciousness like some of us do.  I have conversations with ď self ď everyday.  At times he cusses me out.and brings me down.   But most of the time I tell him to shut his pie hole and I soldier on.  

Never trust a person who claims to be happy and void of any negative thoughts.  That person is the one in denial and likely to throw a hissy fit ....

Edited by bladehunter, 19 November 2018 - 06:20 PM.

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#53 Nard_S

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:47 PM

 Millbrook, on 19 November 2018 - 12:25 PM, said:

 Nard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

 Millbrook, on 18 November 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

Meta awareness is not fast thinking as described by Kahneman in the book you quote.
How is not meta to understand and acknowledge how the human mind actually works?

Aren't you confusing meta understanding with meta awareness in this statement?

Not really or if it seems that way, so what? If you don't understand the problem, how fast and effectively can you solve it?
Martial arts is about training the meta, yet they do not delve into minutia of how the brain works. One of most impressive physical feats to watch is someone test for advanced degrees of black belt. Much of religion is about elevated meta. Look how that works out. I can conceptualize meta but have zero capability to utilize it. Likewise, I understand how Snead and Rory are the same in many respects but I cannot do what either can. So I find it of benefit to understand the limits of my mortal brain, the prisms and constraints that can cause a whole lot of butt hurt in the pursuit of enlightenment. In short, know the field you fight on, great generals do this, always. So perhaps I can take a concept, internalize and actualize it faster. Then maybe I'll be a bit more like Snead and Rory or just play to potential way more often.

There is not one path to this stuff but there's clear over arching patterns to all of it. Also clear the 2 stretches of real estate that matter most in this game is the 6" around the ball and the 6" between the ears. Repeated success is predicated on both being correct in good measure. Tip of the hat to JW & jbw749 for highlighting the one that gets all too little attention.

Edited by Nard_S, 19 November 2018 - 01:51 PM.


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#54 oikos1

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:58 PM

 bladehunter, on 19 November 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:



Quite obvious you don't suffer from a constant stream of consciousness like some of us do.  I have conversations with " self " everyday.  At times he cusses me out.and brings me down.   But most of the time I tell him to shut his pie hole and I soldier on.  

Never trust a person who claims to be happy and void of any negative thoughts.  That person is the one in denial and likely to shoot the place up.

Maybe you missed my response at the top of the page.  But go ahead, create a straw man and blow the topic up.

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#55 oikos1

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:00 PM

 Nard_S, on 19 November 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

 oikos1, on 18 November 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

 Nard_S, on 18 November 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

 oikos1, on 17 November 2018 - 08:28 PM, said:

Not tough to swallow at all.  It's called negative thoughts, and we all have them at times.  Yes, some more than others,  Making up multiple personalities to justify why one feels a certain way or acts a certain way, well, there is a clinical definition for that.

We all have an inner dialogue with ourselves.  If one was using "meta-awareness", or thinking about thinking, at it's highest level, one would have an awareness of their negative thoughts and then be able to make choices about their thoughts.  Making up a-holes and doers and observers in ones mind to solve the problem is not meta-cognition.  It's talking in circles.

I'll attempt not toi be a dick here:)

The brain processes information and works in several forms. There's slow thinking and fast thinking and there's real science behind it, We are pattern seekers. We do not read every letter to read a sentence, We do not spend very long deciding if we are in a fight or flight situation, we don't consciously tell the body how to walk and chew gum. We appreciate beauty and often times it is because we innately see a mathematical symmetry to it. Attractive looking people have more symmetry and better geometry to their face and body, this is appreciated world wide in every culture. Music is sound frequency & rhythm with underlying math.

Using"characters" to describe this process is an imperfect way to convey, to self explain how the brain works in both modes and to shed light on a very real duality that governs our everyday. A metaphor to better "see" the very prism we are a prisoner of and freeing up the nano watt wasted in the wrong mode at the wrong time. Sports is a fast thinking activity, any brain power wasted on slow thinking logic or emotions will flat out hinder it's full potential outcome. Great athletes innately tap into this better. They say Lawrence Taylor may have been one of the greatest NFL defensive players ever and the reason oddly enough is because  nobody could knock him down. His sense of balance and reactive speed was superior to guys already good at that. His fast thinking was superior.

A musician or actor elevates to artists when they compile the technical skills they labored over and allow the fast thinking side to run with it. They are very much outside of themselves in a great performance. Athletes do the same. Playing golf to full potential is no different. Oddly what's vexing about the game is it's nature, the demons of slow thinking always lurk because of the solitary rather slow environment it is played in. Too much time to "think". Good players (sub 5, my definition) understand this and it can be seen in swing tempo and course management, mortal duffers (above 5, again my def, ymmv) often do not.

On top of all that, throw in "fixing your swing".........wow, talk about mind f***. Break down ingrained fast thinking macros, introduce  changes that require slow thinking logic to implement,supplant and rewrite. Brain does not do 'bit clean', Tiger and Faldo took 2 years to cement changes and they do this for a living.  Statistics show that if you did not start this game in youth you have near zero chance to become scratch. Understanding how human brain truly works in some measure explains a lot of this and why folks fail to improve or even play to their real potential more often.

If you truly believe in what you speak, why would you need to be a dick?

As for good vs bad players, you've presented your subjective categorization.  To think that "sub 5" golfers perform at the level of elite athletes or musicians/actors is also questionable at best.
Certainly you must also know that your shining example, Lawrence Taylor, admitted to using cocaine and crack regularly during the 1985 season.

And how does using "characters" explain fast vs slow thinking?  Which one is the a-hole?  The doer? The observer?  What about the lover, the smartass and the blunderer?  How many characters can one have in their head before they're certifiable?

Hah, dick definition comes in many forms but I was thinking the over wrought and lack of brevity one, but there's all knowing and absolutist variety and there's the glib snark type too. Dick 1 Dick2, Dick3
I mentioned sub 5 was my def of good, , I was talking duffer good if I have to spell it out. I was a full time musician late into my 20's, I think I fully understand and have a sober grounded idea what makes for an accomplished artist in music.I was slightly better than "duffer good" there, maybe better than scratch and yet not elite at all..
LT was just an example, could have used a dozen others, the remarkable part is they do not ascribe incredible physical attributes nor insane intelligence, just his balance. I care a lick about his personal failings nor have care about both MJ's or Tiger's or most anybody.
Tagging "characters" to the ego, to the sub-conscious might sound crazy to you but in the end it's just a commonly used construct, perhaps a Western one and if you read my earlier post I I do not care to even use it. Funny irony it's actually used in bestselling book about a mental game for golf! Self 1, Self 2 sound more reasonable? You can buy his book
What we know of how the brain actually works is literally in it's infancy, and we're scratching the surface just now. There's been a multitude of ways to describe and convey it. Right vs left brain, fast vs slow thinking, id, ego, super ego. Probably missing some. There's books on this topic. I've read a few. Whoopie. Meta awareness is as old as Buddism or Taoism. Maybe even Hinduism too. But that's new age whack these days right? So the intense training of Monks and Karate Masters that has been done for thousands can be tossed aside because all they gotta do is "recognize their poor thoughts and make choices"....what do you know Dr. Phil has brought oneness to the billions and they only have to make a choice and they get to give up all that intense meditation and training. Improve at Golf? Watch Oprah. So I plead no contest to being Dick1, not guilty to Dick2 & guilty to Dick3. How's that for awreness? :)
I think that's awesome. I fully support awareness.  I'm also perplexed, and somewhat entertained, how much individuals get so worked up over this stuff.  If one thinks they have an a-hole in their head, or whatever characters they need to tag to their ego, cool, that's their deal and I hope it helps.  When it's brought public and related to golf in a golf forum, sometimes with extraordinary claims, why would one not expect questions/comments?

And yes, I know you can buy his book. I happen to have a copy.  Enjoyed the read. Lot's of good thoughts. But it's only a book, one man's opinion of how he viewed the world and himself when he played a game, and as such is open to interpretation/discussion.


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#56 oikos1

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:09 PM

 oikos1, on 19 November 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

 bladehunter, on 19 November 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Quite obvious you don't suffer from a constant stream of consciousness like some of us do.  I have conversations with " self " everyday.  At times he cusses me out.and brings me down.   But most of the time I tell him to shut his pie hole and I soldier on.  

Never trust a person who claims to be happy and void of any negative thoughts.  That person is the one in denial and likely to shoot the place up.

Maybe you missed my response at the top of the page.  But go ahead, create a straw man and blow the topic up.
Edit:  Actually, after reading this again, just what the hell are you talking about? Are you insinuating something about me? What is your evidence for such a statement about "shooting a place up".
Why would you even bring something like that up in a golf forum?  F@#cking bizzare.

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#57 DavePelz4

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:09 PM

I think we need Meta World Peace.

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#58 bladehunter

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 06:19 PM

 oikos1, on 19 November 2018 - 02:09 PM, said:

 oikos1, on 19 November 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

 bladehunter, on 19 November 2018 - 01:39 PM, said:

Quite obvious you don't suffer from a constant stream of consciousness like some of us do.  I have conversations with " self " everyday.  At times he cusses me out.and brings me down.   But most of the time I tell him to shut his pie hole and I soldier on.  

Never trust a person who claims to be happy and void of any negative thoughts.  That person is the one in denial and likely to shoot the place up.

Maybe you missed my response at the top of the page.  But go ahead, create a straw man and blow the topic up.
Edit:  Actually, after reading this again, just what the hell are you talking about? Are you insinuating something about me? What is your evidence for such a statement about "shooting a place up".
Why would you even bring something like that up in a golf forum?  F@#cking bizzare.

Maybe a poor choice of words on my part.  I appologize and will edit the post.  But in all reality.  Any other similar analogy would work as well unless YOU choose to take it literally.  

You state that the book mentioned is ď one mans thoughts on his view of the world ď.  Yet for some reason folks who identify the source of negative thoughts , the way several have described , arenít allowed that opinion.  

I have a very laymanís type point of view here.  For sure.  So I may sound ignorant compared to the learned person on the topic.  But.  I know what I think and feel and how my awareness of myself , and those around me works , better than anyone.  So Iím not sure how someone can dispute that ?  Give your thoughts sure. But youíve crossed over into disputing other folks on a topic That probably cannot be proven nor disputed for sure.  If Iím wrong on that I also appologize for offending any sensibilities.
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#59 bladehunter

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 06:46 PM

So.... anyway .


Thinking in this topic all day as I worked.  As I understand it the root of this meta awareness is self talk and self awareness.  

Iíve often wondered why some folks donít seem to have any of this?  Mostly the self awareness part.


Example.  Your In a store with narrow aisles.  You come to an aisle with someone either talking on the phone , or two  people talking to each other.  Blocking the way.  You pull up close to them expecting a response. You are ignored.  ( 6ft 4 guy in my case.  Hard to miss ). Do these people lack the voice in their head that constantly loops and scans to make sure they are in their lane , their space and not impeding someone elseís progress or business?   Or is this a conscious decision they make to be rude ?  

Another example.  Standing at the butchers counter.  Some people just walk up out of nowhere and decide they are next.  In front of 8-10 people.  Do they lack the self awareness to understand how that works ?  Itís hard for me to imagine that people are that rude on purpose.  

A third example.  Scanning your surroundings.  Iím pretty good at being aware of who is in close proximity to me in public.  Itís just a habit. I scan faces , clothing and mannerisms.   3 times in my life Iíve had to give a witness report for the police on either a death  ( auto ) or robbery... each time I saw the offender or victim minutes before the incidents and recalled details about them that were accurate.  But I might not be able to tell you what I ate for breakfast this morning.  Lol.  Certain things I feel like I have a photographic memory and menial things I donít waste space remembering at alll.  

My entire existence is spent with a navigation voice In my head making sure Iím not in someone elseís way. And that others stay in their lane too.    Am I perfect in execution?  nope. But , Iím aware of it when I get in someoneís way 99% of the time.  

Maybe off topic. Iím not sure. To me itís not.  Iíd venture a guess that those of us who have this self awareness also learn things differently and it involves those  voices we describe.

Further around the mulberry bush.  Anyone ever have thoughts on the universe ?  As in.  What is it inside ?   As in are we some  aliens ant farm ?   Where does if end ?  I wonder if anyone else wonders that ?  Things like that pop into my head at the strangest times.  Anyone else ever feel like theyíve been here before ?  Seriously.  The true Dejavu feeling.  Not in great detail.  Just a feeling that youíve seen something before. But in a different setting.  Or a Place in a different time ?  Iíve always had the feeling of being an old soul.   Like I was born old.  My wife shares this ď born old ď feeling  , but doesnít share my curiosity on it.  To further push my curiosity on it. We married at 21 (38 3/4 now) and honestly work like best pals.  Coincidence?  Maybe so.  

Anyone ever wake up and have a very uneasy feeling.  Then have something tragic Happen the same day or find out that it happened earlier ?  Itís happened to me more times than I can count.  Itís a sickening feeling.  Helpless and scary.  

Iím 4 years into playing this game.  I was around it always. But never played really.  Iíve always felt like I played before though.  And when I did start playing I took to it like a duck to water.  

Random thoughts.  No real point I guess. Except that our brains have corners and crevices that we donít understand.  And abilities we cannot imagine.   When I get a taste of that it makes me wonder even more.

Edited by bladehunter, 19 November 2018 - 07:03 PM.

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#60 FourTops

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 08:24 PM

Ok some of you folks...you're WAY over-thinking meta-awareness...LOL!  Oh the irony!  And to the above post....random thoughts often lead to major process improvements in manufacturing or any process-driven environments.  Deja Vu...YES!  Or how about sitting somewhere and you feel like someone is looking at you....and then you turn and someone IS LOOKING AT YOU?  Explain that one.  Or you decide to call someone randomly and you pick up your phone and they're calling you?  How about twins who claim to have mental telepathy with the other?  

Now let's get into golf terms....

How about the par 3 where there's water on the right...and despite how far you line-up left, you hit into the water?  Or the tee shot on a fairway that no matter how far right you line up you pull the shot OB left?  Or how about the two foot putt for birdie that goes wide right or short....after sinking 100 in a row on the putting green 20 minutes earlier?   How about thinking about the difficulty of the next hole before finishing the current hole?

And most often found....why do folks think a new set of irons will somehow "improve" their swing?  Here's my explanation...they are actually employing their own brand of mental awareness by thinking a new club is yet unfamiliar with their bad swing....thus the club will be fooled into hitting better shots.

Edited by FourTops, 19 November 2018 - 08:29 PM.


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