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Meta-Awareness Learning

metagolf meta awareness jim waldron

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#271 FourTops

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 09:39 PM

View PostNard_S, on 04 December 2018 - 07:35 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 04 December 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 04 December 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:

Ever notice Pro's do an awful lot of thinking and calculus pre-shot and they do drills and practice swings too. What you also see is once they commit they step in and pull the trigger. They do all that outside of that 3 foot circle that's all about do. It's a good method to follow. Keep a physical zone between where you think and where you do.

Good call. We see many pros with exaggerated moves in a pre-swing. For the most part, they make the move away from the ball and step up and go. Some do it over the ball and then go.

They do an awful conscious thinking. DeChameau is crazy level.I like the idea of setting up a physical zone  where auto-pilot is only allowed and you step into it with clear objective and head. Outside that, wonk away..Slightly more elaborate than a standard PSR but for numbnuts like me,I could use that rule.

This is Annika Sorenstam stuff.  Think box and (I think) go box.


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#272 FourTops

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 10:06 PM

View PostTanner25, on 04 December 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 03 December 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 03 December 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Ok, so, I am going to try this whole MA thing. But, I will ease into it. I've had some success with pulling down from the top with my left hand. It gives me some power. Today, I used this thought as a pre-swing thought away from the ball. Then after stepping into the shot, I just focused on my pre-shot routine (target, alignment, posture, balance) and then swing and noticing the outcome. So, far so good for 9 holes. The one thing that is enjoyable is just letting it happen is less stressful compared to taking to body parts.

Great story!  I would caution you that thinking "target, alignment, posture, balance" is too much thinking...just IMO.  The reason I say that is because you probably don't think about any of that when you throw a ball to someone 10 feet away, or when walking down stairs.  NOT minimizing your improvement...NOT!   It's just that I know I am pre-conditioned to still "think" about stuff that should be 2nd nature....almost a reflexive action.

Thanks, FourTops. So, are you advocating "swing your swing", just step in and go? Like in traditional swing instruction, it's been said, "I use parts of it ( ie: stack n tilt or Venetos)". Can we use parts of this (MA) or one must be all in to see the benefit? Thx Tanner

Tanner...to be honest...i don't know what to think anymore.  It just seems like thinking "anything" can be both good and bad.  I can tell you this:  last weekend I was somewhat struggling....so what I did was picture myself playing golf on TV as Fred Couples, and pretended an announcer was talking about my next shot...club selection, etc.  I actually played much better.  Don't know why...don't know if that will work again..but it was weird.

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#273 Tanner25

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Posted 04 December 2018 - 10:22 PM

View PostFourTops, on 04 December 2018 - 10:06 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 04 December 2018 - 07:45 AM, said:

View PostFourTops, on 03 December 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 03 December 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

Ok, so, I am going to try this whole MA thing. But, I will ease into it. I've had some success with pulling down from the top with my left hand. It gives me some power. Today, I used this thought as a pre-swing thought away from the ball. Then after stepping into the shot, I just focused on my pre-shot routine (target, alignment, posture, balance) and then swing and noticing the outcome. So, far so good for 9 holes. The one thing that is enjoyable is just letting it happen is less stressful compared to taking to body parts.

Great story!  I would caution you that thinking "target, alignment, posture, balance" is too much thinking...just IMO.  The reason I say that is because you probably don't think about any of that when you throw a ball to someone 10 feet away, or when walking down stairs.  NOT minimizing your improvement...NOT!   It's just that I know I am pre-conditioned to still "think" about stuff that should be 2nd nature....almost a reflexive action.

Thanks, FourTops. So, are you advocating "swing your swing", just step in and go? Like in traditional swing instruction, it's been said, "I use parts of it ( ie: stack n tilt or Venetos)". Can we use parts of this (MA) or one must be all in to see the benefit? Thx Tanner

Tanner...to be honest...i don't know what to think anymore.  It just seems like thinking "anything" can be both good and bad.  I can tell you this:  last weekend I was somewhat struggling....so what I did was picture myself playing golf on TV as Fred Couples, and pretended an announcer was talking about my next shot...club selection, etc.  I actually played much better.  Don't know why...don't know if that will work again..but it was weird.

Lol, FourTops. Perhaps, you were using thoughts to distract yourself from the actual task - the swing? It is MA like. Freddie was a good choice. Ernie Els is another good one to copy. Hit em well!

Edited by Tanner25, 04 December 2018 - 10:24 PM.


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#274 ebrasmus21

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?
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#275 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 04:13 PM

View Postebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?
He was posting last night in a bunch of threads.  I saw a couple of insensitive/insulting posts, but probably not ban worthy.  However, with all the threads he was swimming through it would be easy to miss where he stepped over the line.

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#276 jut111

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 04:28 PM

View Postebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?

Shocked he made it this long.

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#277 ebrasmus21

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 04:41 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 05 December 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

View Postebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?
He was posting last night in a bunch of threads.  I saw a couple of insensitive/insulting posts, but probably not ban worthy.  However, with all the threads he was swimming through it would be easy to miss where he stepped over the line.

Apparently he got carried away in a PXG thread.  Haven't checked the thread myself but that's what I heard.  Started getting political.
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#278 Tanner25

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:47 PM

View Postebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 05 December 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

View Postebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?
He was posting last night in a bunch of threads.  I saw a couple of insensitive/insulting posts, but probably not ban worthy.  However, with all the threads he was swimming through it would be easy to miss where he stepped over the line.

Apparently he got carried away in a PXG thread.  Haven't checked the thread myself but that's what I heard.  Started getting political.

Hopefully, it is just a break. I thought his posts were fine.

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#279 cb24

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 09:00 AM

So is meta-awareness training also know as  getting diagnosed for schizophrenia?

I kid of course, not about bipolar disorder, I understand how serious and scary that is, but that all these different selves people are talking about in the thread sound like an attempt to be schizophrenic

Edited by cb24, 07 December 2018 - 10:34 PM.


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#280 Millbrook

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 09:18 AM

View Postcb24, on 06 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

So is meta-awareness training also know as  getting diagnosed for bipolar disorder?

I kid of course, not about bipolar disorder, I understand how serious and scary that is, but that all these different selves people are talking about in the thread sound like an attempt to be bipolar

You clearly do not understand what bipolar disorder is.
MA is not an attempt to be bipolar, you may be thinking of split personalities or sub personalities but none are MA

All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

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#281 Nard_S

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 01:59 PM

 cb24, on 06 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

So is meta-awareness training also know as  getting diagnosed for bipolar disorder?

I kid of course, not about bipolar disorder, I understand how serious and scary that is, but that all these different selves people are talking about in the thread sound like an attempt to be bipolar

Not at all.They're constructs to understand and convey. A great part of brain activity is not done in conscious thought. Heart rate,breathing, the complex movement of walking or just staying in balance are done in back ground and for less of a better word automated.To a great extent, a developed swing is too. The unconscious rules our world more than we appreciate. Live on 4 hours of sleep for 6 months or a year and it becomes apparent that an awful of good work & housekeeping of the soul  gets done in deep REM sleep.

I could once play to 7-8 cap by allowing unfettered unconscious to do it's job. Started "fixing" ingrained, flawed swing I was more like 10-12 for 2 seasons. This year back to peak but higher ceiling and floor are both revealing themselves. What's clear is that mental aspect through all of it was left too neglected and has hampered progress. There's solid biological reasons for the this and much of it resides in how the  brain does and does not work. It also sheds light on why most all scratch players began the game in youth and those that did not have less than .01% chance of ever doing so. Or why a Faldo, a Tiger took years to yield improvements on what was already damn good.

"Meta" is respecting and not fighting that reality with flawed "thinking". It's re-directing intelligence to navigate through all this. It's about not compounding body stupid with conscious stupid. It if means having self1, self2 construct to comprehend, to convey,so be it.

The real life scratch players I've come across innately get this stuff, there's a mental maturation they crossed to and possess. Also their swings' possess key principled elements that has allowed their play to flourish. So  there's a chicken/egg aspect to this too. Flawed mechanics, hampers mental maturation and poor thinking hampers unlocking best swing more often and improving upon it. It's all co-dependent and too often it's easy to lose sight of that virtuous/destructive relationship.I know I have,so hence my interest in this topic.

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#282 MetaGolfer

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:15 PM

 Tanner25, on 05 December 2018 - 05:47 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

 ThinkingPlus, on 05 December 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?
He was posting last night in a bunch of threads.  I saw a couple of insensitive/insulting posts, but probably not ban worthy.  However, with all the threads he was swimming through it would be easy to miss where he stepped over the line.

Apparently he got carried away in a PXG thread.  Haven't checked the thread myself but that's what I heard.  Started getting political.

Hopefully, it is just a break. I thought his posts were fine.

Weird.  I'm new here because this thread he started showed up on Google in first page search results.  Some good stuff here.

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#283 MetaGolfer

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:22 PM

I talked to a guy today who played major college golf then the mini-tours...almost PGA Tour.  He said he can't teach AT ALL.  I asked why. He said "I think I just do what feels right".  But his main thought is "his head is in a box, can't move his head".  Interesting.

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#284 jbw749

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:53 PM

A little off topic, but I read that trolling is now so unlikely to result in anyone buying into it that only the most completely out of touch still attempt it.

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#285 MetaGolfer

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:40 PM

 jbw749, on 07 December 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

A little off topic, but I read that trolling is now so unlikely to result in anyone buying into it that only the most completely out of touch still attempt it.

Why is that trolling to you?  Serious question.


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#286 cb24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:33 PM

 Millbrook, on 06 December 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

 cb24, on 06 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

So is meta-awareness training also know as  getting diagnosed for bipolar disorder?

I kid of course, not about bipolar disorder, I understand how serious and scary that is, but that all these different selves people are talking about in the thread sound like an attempt to be bipolar

You clearly do not understand what bipolar disorder is.
MA is not an attempt to be bipolar, you may be thinking of split personalities or sub personalities but none are MA

Yes, you are 100% correct I meant to say schizophrenia

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#287 Millbrook

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 03:50 AM

Some info and exercises on MA;

https://www.training...-of-mindfulness

This is the link in para 4. which are the exercises

https://mindtime.me/listen.php
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#288 Kball10

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:19 AM

This thread is awesome.  I am currently really struggling with my putting - especially short putts that I should be making. I have battled through a slight case of the yips and at times it can still be hard to just pull the blade back.  I know I can putt - although I definitely need to change my self talk. When I have a short putt I can feel the tension rising.  I am attempting to incorporate MA into my game, but how do I apply it in this situation?

Thanks

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#289 jbw749

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:32 AM

 Kball10, on 08 December 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

This thread is awesome.  I am currently really struggling with my putting - especially short putts that I should be making. I have battled through a slight case of the yips and at times it can still be hard to just pull the blade back.  I know I can putt - although I definitely need to change my self talk. When I have a short putt I can feel the tension rising.  I am attempting to incorporate MA into my game, but how do I apply it in this situation?

Thanks

Attempting to apply it to your game before practicing mindfulness is tricky. So I would suggest understanding how to stay in the present moment, because by definition if you're in the present you dont fear failure.
But having not knowing how to do that yet, I would suggest start to exhale as you take the putter head back keep exhaling focused on your breath and say to yourself "I'm content with the outcome" during the entire stroke.
Remember fearing you will miss and trying harder to make it will cause a flinch or yip.

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#290 Kball10

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:35 AM

 jbw749, on 08 December 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

 Kball10, on 08 December 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

This thread is awesome.  I am currently really struggling with my putting - especially short putts that I should be making. I have battled through a slight case of the yips and at times it can still be hard to just pull the blade back.  I know I can putt - although I definitely need to change my self talk. When I have a short putt I can feel the tension rising.  I am attempting to incorporate MA into my game, but how do I apply it in this situation?

Thanks

Attempting to apply it to your game before practicing mindfulness is tricky. So I would suggest understanding how to stay in the present moment, because by definition if you're in the present you dont fear failure.
But having not knowing how to do that yet, I would suggest start to exhale as you take the putter head back keep exhaling focused on your breath and say to yourself "I'm content with the outcome" during the entire stroke.
Remember fearing you will miss and trying harder to make it will cause a flinch or yip.

Thanks

What should I be working on off the golf course to have more success applying it on the golf course?

Edited by Kball10, 08 December 2018 - 07:43 AM.


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#291 Kball10

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:47 AM

The other thing I am trying to figure out is how to practice swing changes or adjustments, because it is the pursuit of these things that has me thinking too much when I play.

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#292 jbw749

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 02:33 PM

 Kball10, on 08 December 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

 jbw749, on 08 December 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

 Kball10, on 08 December 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

This thread is awesome.  I am currently really struggling with my putting - especially short putts that I should be making. I have battled through a slight case of the yips and at times it can still be hard to just pull the blade back.  I know I can putt - although I definitely need to change my self talk. When I have a short putt I can feel the tension rising.  I am attempting to incorporate MA into my game, but how do I apply it in this situation?

Thanks

Attempting to apply it to your game before practicing mindfulness is tricky. So I would suggest understanding how to stay in the present moment, because by definition if you're in the present you dont fear failure.
But having not knowing how to do that yet, I would suggest start to exhale as you take the putter head back keep exhaling focused on your breath and say to yourself "I'm content with the outcome" during the entire stroke.
Remember fearing you will miss and trying harder to make it will cause a flinch or yip.

Thanks

What should I be working on off the golf course to have more success applying it on the golf course?

Start by observing things without self talk and I mean everything. Sounds easy but really stop every time you talk to yourself. You don't need narration of things when you observe them.
If you shut this off (by being witness to it) you will start to see things for what they really are there is no judgment. When you observe something with no internal narration you are in the present.
People describe there first experiences of being in the present as feeling like they're in 3D.
Shutting off the narrator takes practice.  But it doesn't take that much practice, nothing compared to most things you set out to learn.
Plenty of info on witnessing your thoughts with a simple Google search.
It's a building block to learning and overcoming fears.

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#293 bladehunter

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:32 PM

 ebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

 ThinkingPlus, on 05 December 2018 - 04:13 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?
He was posting last night in a bunch of threads.  I saw a couple of insensitive/insulting posts, but probably not ban worthy.  However, with all the threads he was swimming through it would be easy to miss where he stepped over the line.

Apparently he got carried away in a PXG thread.  Haven't checked the thread myself but that's what I heard.  Started getting political.

Yep. It was that one.  I ducked out just before the shooting starting I think.
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#294 Terry Gold

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:48 PM

 cb24, on 07 December 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

 Millbrook, on 06 December 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

 cb24, on 06 December 2018 - 09:00 AM, said:

So is meta-awareness training also know as  getting diagnosed for bipolar disorder?

I kid of course, not about bipolar disorder, I understand how serious and scary that is, but that all these different selves people are talking about in the thread sound like an attempt to be bipolar

You clearly do not understand what bipolar disorder is.
MA is not an attempt to be bipolar, you may be thinking of split personalities or sub personalities but none are MA

Yes, you are 100% correct I meant to say schizophrenia

Sorry. Wrong again.  'Split personality' isn't equivalent to or indicative of schizophrenia, either.

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#295 Jim Waldron

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 08:54 PM

 jbw749, on 08 December 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

 Kball10, on 08 December 2018 - 07:35 AM, said:

 jbw749, on 08 December 2018 - 07:32 AM, said:

 Kball10, on 08 December 2018 - 07:19 AM, said:

This thread is awesome.  I am currently really struggling with my putting - especially short putts that I should be making. I have battled through a slight case of the yips and at times it can still be hard to just pull the blade back.  I know I can putt - although I definitely need to change my self talk. When I have a short putt I can feel the tension rising.  I am attempting to incorporate MA into my game, but how do I apply it in this situation?

Thanks

Attempting to apply it to your game before practicing mindfulness is tricky. So I would suggest understanding how to stay in the present moment, because by definition if you're in the present you dont fear failure.
But having not knowing how to do that yet, I would suggest start to exhale as you take the putter head back keep exhaling focused on your breath and say to yourself "I'm content with the outcome" during the entire stroke.
Remember fearing you will miss and trying harder to make it will cause a flinch or yip.

Thanks

What should I be working on off the golf course to have more success applying it on the golf course?

Start by observing things without self talk and I mean everything. Sounds easy but really stop every time you talk to yourself. You don't need narration of things when you observe them.
If you shut this off (by being witness to it) you will start to see things for what they really are there is no judgment. When you observe something with no internal narration you are in the present.
People describe there first experiences of being in the present as feeling like they're in 3D.
Shutting off the narrator takes practice.  But it doesn't take that much practice, nothing compared to most things you set out to learn.
Plenty of info on witnessing your thoughts with a simple Google search.
It's a building block to learning and overcoming fears.

Well said!

MA just really boils down to this: you are either paying attention to what is happening right in front of you, whether your internal state or the external world, in the present moment, or you are not.

The more aware you are - of mind, body and club (through sensitive hands) - the faster you will make swing changes, and the faster you will see significant score improvement.

I teach all four major golf skill areas: long game (golf swing fundamentals), short game, putting and mental game, and there is no question having taught for over 25 years that the single most important fundamental in golf is MA. If you have it, it makes learning all the skills in those four key areas so much easier and faster. If you do not have it, golf can be a very long struggle with tons of frustration.


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#296 mshills

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Posted 10 December 2018 - 08:54 PM

 ebrasmus21, on 05 December 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Anyone know why FourTops got banned?

There is some good stuff in this thread, but tough to get through the single user posting and posting and posting and posting and posting and......

Running the site -- not a good look.  Every thread he's in ends up being the FourTops hour.
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#297 moehogan

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Posted 13 December 2018 - 10:28 AM



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#298 Kball10

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 01:57 PM

Ok I have put this into play for 3 rounds and all I have to say is WOW!  I have been struggling for the last 2-3 months as I was trying to “fix” my swing.  My swing and game are so much freer. I focus on my breathing and say the word tempo - then I just let it go.  I observe the results with no judgement and move on.

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#299 jbw749

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Posted Yesterday, 09:18 AM

 Kball10, on 15 December 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Ok I have put this into play for 3 rounds and all I have to say is WOW!  I have been struggling for the last 2-3 months as I was trying to “fix” my swing.  My swing and game are so much freer. I focus on my breathing and say the word tempo - then I just let it go.  I observe the results with no judgement and move on.

Glad to see this.  Slowly but surely people will "get it". It sounds nuts, but when I first observed shots without judgment I felt like I was playing a different game. Almost like before that point I didn't realize not judging was even an option.
Then I thought: "What if I swing the club without judging?" That would ensure that I had no preconceived expectation that I would hit a good or bad shot. When I can get through a whole swing being content I can noticeably feel ABSENCE of tension and flinching therefore leading to better shots.
Infact the things you can noticeably feel that you couldnt before when your mind is cluttered with judgement is astonishing. This is why practicing this way leads to better learning.




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#300 Nard_S

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Posted Yesterday, 11:08 AM

 jbw749, on 16 December 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

 Kball10, on 15 December 2018 - 01:57 PM, said:

Ok I have put this into play for 3 rounds and all I have to say is WOW!  I have been struggling for the last 2-3 months as I was trying to "fix" my swing.  My swing and game are so much freer. I focus on my breathing and say the word tempo - then I just let it go.  I observe the results with no judgement and move on.

Glad to see this.  Slowly but surely people will "get it". It sounds nuts, but when I first observed shots without judgment I felt like I was playing a different game. Almost like before that point I didn't realize not judging was even an option.
Then I thought: "What if I swing the club without judging?" That would ensure that I had no preconceived expectation that I would hit a good or bad shot. When I can get through a whole swing being content I can noticeably feel ABSENCE of tension and flinching therefore leading to better shots.
Infact the things you can noticeably feel that you couldnt before when your mind is cluttered with judgement is astonishing. This is why practicing this way leads to better learning.

This approach has spun my head around 180 degrees. I used to approach practice to go have fun and played to throw down and score.Now practices is more about work for genuine goals and play is about the game at hand, having fun with it. Both benefit. I get more done in practice and play looser on the course. Find myself not spinning my wheels or pushing on a string in either. Big productivity booster  where I don't walk away feeling like I wasted my time.


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