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The real reason golfers donít get better with practice


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#31 2bGood

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 01:35 AM

in.


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#32 Obee

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 01:48 AM

View Postctmason_98, on 14 November 2018 - 01:04 AM, said:

View PostJim Waldron, on 12 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:


Of all the items he listed, having good meta-awareness in general and especially in feel channel on the body when learning are most important, by far.

I think it is fantastic if you teach people successfully. I don’t know anything about how you teach, and don’t care.

So with all that said...this sentence is complete gibberish.

And if it makes any one feel better, by all means just chalk it up to me just not being as smart as you.

I don't know what a "feel channel" is, but I'm a big believer in meta-awareness being something every golfer should start to understand.
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#33 pinhigh27

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:31 AM

Funny thread. Ya I'm sure the 16 year old kid who is a +5 thinks about his feel channel. You can't make this crap up

I agree self awareness is important but I'd say the number one reason people don't improve is practice. People think you can be a scratch golfer playing once a week. You can maintain but I doubt most will ever get there if that is all they do. It takes time. There are also lots of bad instructors out there who will not help you on your journey.
How to be in better shape for golf?
Become a better athlete.
Don't worry about golf specific.
Compound lifts w/ linear progress
Don't forget the mobility work.
More results, more functional

Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
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#34 pinhigh27

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:32 AM

View PostObee, on 13 November 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

View PostBMC, on 13 November 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice...


Because some don't have the motor skills or or god given ability to get better.

Sure practice and instruction could allow somebody
who shoots 110 to shoot 100.  But some people max out their potential.

Some people run fast, jump high, or hit a tennis ball coming at them at 140 mph.  Some people just have a natural ability to hit a golf ball straight and far.  And didn't  "practice" that much to be able to do it.

While this is absolutely true and I repeat it frequently, I think it's also true that many people who play golf never get close to their full potential. More so in golf than in other sports, actually. I don't have any "proof" of this, it's just an observation after playing the game for 30 years after playing other sports growing up and baseball in high school and college at a high level. Golf is a truly unique sport in many ways....

Do you think the guy playing rec league basketball twice a week ever reaches his basketball potential? To even get close to your potential in any sport or pursuit takes an incredibly huge amount of time.
How to be in better shape for golf?
Become a better athlete.
Don't worry about golf specific.
Compound lifts w/ linear progress
Don't forget the mobility work.
More results, more functional

Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700

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#35 pinhigh27

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:34 AM

I really don't think a hack needs to talk about the mental game to get better. They need to be taught to move the club in a more efficient manner. If we're talking about taking a great player and making them elite? Sure. But if we're talking joe 30 handicap at the range, they already have no idea what they're doing. If you try to talk mental game with them you will confuse them so much

How to be in better shape for golf?
Become a better athlete.
Don't worry about golf specific.
Compound lifts w/ linear progress
Don't forget the mobility work.
More results, more functional

Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
Pga tour driver avg launch conditions: 11* 2700

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#36 Atrayn

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:32 AM

I'll give a great personal example of why....

Years ago in my quest to improve I took a group lesson at a local course by a PGA pro. The main reason why is because I never saw my swing on video and they were offering it up in the 6 lesson pack.

Every week we came in, he gave the lesson and then instruction to everyone go and practice what we learned before the next session. EVERY week I was the ONLY person that practiced what he assigned when we were asked.

My problem was that he identified the fact that my arms lagged my rotation but I got ZERO help on how to fix it. This is what moved me to an online search for the answer and inevitably to GolWRX and the Slicefixer thread.

Once here, I devoured every piece of information I could find and educated myself on not only the different swing methods but details such as the new ball flight laws and the "D" plane. From there, it was a matter of experimenting with everything until I found almost all of what I needed. That took two years to accomplish. From there, I knew I was missing something else and I didn't have a clue until I took the dive into Martin Chuck's teachings in 2012. He picked up on one last piece that really helped my short game  (UD) and the type of impact dynamics I was trying to see and feel. From there I dedicated myself to the short game and the proper techniques for the types of shots required, because I knew it would be the difference that could get me down to my goal of scratch.

I got there at the end of '16 because I was confident in my swing and could focus on short game and putting and practiced it religiously several times a week because I lived on a course. Right now, being back in Illinois, I don't have that luxury so the short game isn't as sharp and it shows in my play. I'm hovering realistically around a 4-5 right now because of this reason only.

The great part is that I know it and I can temper my expectations. I do hit a bad shot a couple times a round, however I just punch out and try to make Par instead of trying to tamper with the swing. 100% of the time I know what happened to cause the bad shot.
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#37 bladehunter

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:34 AM

Finally read the article.  As expected it was spot on.  

If you arenít in tune enough to practice as described and understand how  path / face relate to ball flight and what each feels like then no instruction will help.  

If you do understand those for your body at even a 20 handicap level you can focus and practice this way with every shot , chip and putt and improve.  
Iíve practiced this way for 4 years since starting this game and retain a 0.5 to 2 handicap playing once to twice a week and practicing daily.  I figured this out on my own that if I didnít take time on each ball it was a waste of time.  20 balls of focused measured practice is better than 200 rake  and spray shots.  But I also realize as I type this I do not practice putting this way .  And putter is my Achilles heal.  So that I shall change as well.
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#38 juststeve

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:52 AM

View PostObee, on 13 November 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

View PostBMC, on 13 November 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice...


Because some don't have the motor skills or or god given ability to get better.

Sure practice and instruction could allow somebody
who shoots 110 to shoot 100.  But some people max out their potential.

Some people run fast, jump high, or hit a tennis ball coming at them at 140 mph.  Some people just have a natural ability to hit a golf ball straight and far.  And didn't  "practice" that much to be able to do it.

While this is absolutely true and I repeat it frequently, I think it's also true that many people who play golf never get close to their full potential. More so in golf than in other sports, actually. I don't have any "proof" of this, it's just an observation after playing the game for 30 years after playing other sports growing up and baseball in high school and college at a high level. Golf is a truly unique sport in many ways....

I agree 100% with Obee but would go further to say that of the sports I've played seriously, football,basketball, baseball and golf,golf requires the least natural ability of the four.  A great deal of what makes us good in golf is the acquisition of skills that don't  require   a lot of athleticism. With work almost everyone can play to a much higher standard than they do.

Steve

Edited by juststeve, 26 November 2018 - 04:08 PM.


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#39 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:58 AM

View PostObee, on 13 November 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

How anyone can read that article, and not get some fantastic takeaways, is beyond me.


Becasue many people feel the exact same way I do. Which is skeptical.

I would never say it’s wrong or doesn’t work becasue I’ve never tried it. I’m sure it does work for some people.

But there are just as many people out there who consider it “psycho-babble” or “mumbo-jumbo”.

Just different viewpoints.
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#40 oikos1

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 09:09 AM

"With work almost everyone can play to a much higher standard than they do."

These "Why don't golfers get better" threads always seem to go like this.  Some magic bullet out there.  This time it's meta awareness, next time it will be bash modern instruction, but always comes back full circle to the fact that it's 100% on the individual and their abilities and commitment.


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#41 gioguy21

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 09:18 AM

View Postctmason_98, on 13 November 2018 - 02:25 AM, said:

Why use 200 words when 2,000 will do?

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#42 MountainGoat

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 09:45 AM

The reason most golfers don't improve is that they spend too much time perfecting the one shot they'll never see on a real golf course -- a clean, level lie on a driving range mat.

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#43 Obee

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:07 AM

View Postpinhigh27, on 14 November 2018 - 06:32 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 13 November 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

View PostBMC, on 13 November 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice...


Because some don't have the motor skills or or god given ability to get better.

Sure practice and instruction could allow somebody
who shoots 110 to shoot 100.  But some people max out their potential.

Some people run fast, jump high, or hit a tennis ball coming at them at 140 mph.  Some people just have a natural ability to hit a golf ball straight and far.  And didn't  "practice" that much to be able to do it.

While this is absolutely true and I repeat it frequently, I think it's also true that many people who play golf never get close to their full potential. More so in golf than in other sports, actually. I don't have any "proof" of this, it's just an observation after playing the game for 30 years after playing other sports growing up and baseball in high school and college at a high level. Golf is a truly unique sport in many ways....

Do you think the guy playing rec league basketball twice a week ever reaches his basketball potential? To even get close to your potential in any sport or pursuit takes an incredibly huge amount of time.

I don't know about you, but where I play golf, There are at least 100 guys who play or practice 3 - 6 days a week.

And, personally, I wasn't talking about anyone's complete potential. More like their potential to get better based upon the time they are willing to put in.
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#44 Krt22

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:15 AM

View PostMountainGoat, on 14 November 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

The reason most golfers don't improve is that they spend too much time perfecting the one shot they'll never see on a real golf course -- a clean, level lie on a driving range mat.

Nothing wrong with that, making mechanical changes is hard enough, no need to complicate it with variable conditions. The issue for most is knowing what setup changes are required for various lies and swing flaws/compensations that make certain lies extremely difficult.

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#45 Obee

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:25 AM

View PostKrt22, on 14 November 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

View PostMountainGoat, on 14 November 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

The reason most golfers don't improve is that they spend too much time perfecting the one shot they'll never see on a real golf course -- a clean, level lie on a driving range mat.

Nothing wrong with that, making mechanical changes is hard enough, no need to complicate it with variable conditions. The issue for most is knowing what setup changes are required for various lies and swing flaws/compensations that make certain lies extremely difficult.

There is plenty wrong with that — if that person's goal is to be good at actually playing  the game of golf on a real golf course eventually.


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#46 mshills

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:28 AM

The real reason(s) golfers don't get better with practice?  Here's my opinion:

1. Golf is hard.  It is not a natural motion.  If you give a child a ball and ask him to toss it to you, he is likely to face you and push it to you somehow.  He is unlikely to turn 90 degrees from you and toss it to you "sideways."

2. Related to #1, feel is not real.  What golfers think they need to work on to get better is almost never what they should work on to get better, and is often diametrically opposed to getting better.

3. It takes work to learn how to practice.  The vast majority of golfers warm up.  They do not practice.  There is a real difference between the two.

4. Swing tips/thoughts, magazine articles, and 10 handicaps with a video camera are tools of the devil for players who want to improve.

Edited by mshills, 14 November 2018 - 10:29 AM.

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#47 Krt22

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 10:34 AM

Absolutely still need to play, but unless you belong to a club or play at off hours when courses are empty, making mechanical changes in playing conditions is next to impossible and brings in multiple variables. There were certain lies that were death for me and my swing faults. I would get to my ball during a round, mentally know what I needed to do, but largely never could due to my inherent flaw (under plane hooker). It wasn't until I changed my practice routine and made lasting mechanical changes that I could confidently go out onto the course and adjust accordingly for those former death lies (down hill, below my feet, heavy rough, etc)

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#48 jj9000

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 11:18 AM

View PostObee, on 14 November 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

And, personally, I wasn't talking about anyone's complete potential. More like their potential to get better based upon the time they are willing to put in.

Set the neuroscience talk aside for a moment.

The answer to the thread question lies inside the statement above.

The extent to which someone will get better at this game is directly related to the time they are willing to put into their game.

Can someone get much, much better without instruction?  Sure, but it might take longer than if it were focused practice with an instructor.

If those folks are willing to dig it out of the dirt, and are committed, they'll get better.

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#49 bladehunter

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 11:38 AM

100% ^^. Iíd never say ď the way ď.  Iíve spent my whole life translating info from others to my own way of thinking.  Way back even when learning long division.  I could do it as multiplication then calculate the remainder in my head.  But of course that wasnít the taught method. So I struggled to ď show my work ď.  

And my wife has a early childhood development/ English lit degree.  So you can imagine her horror anytime she reads my ramblings.  Lmao !

I parce up info and methods to create my own in most things.  This game included.
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#50 tiger1873

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 11:48 AM

What I see is a lot people don't improve because a lot people simply practice the wrong thing. For instance a lot people think they need to practice better at putting and they may correct but do they practice from 6 ft in no they think they need to sink 30 ft putts all day because that is what they see on TV.  Doesn't matter that even the best putters probably  have  less  then 10% chance of making it .   They also have no idea what shot they can and can't make and try to be a hero way too many times. If you have a 1 in 20 chance of making a shot it means you should not be doing the shot in the first place.

When they seek help they end up going with instructors who can't break 80 and just teach guys who score 130 so they are not challenged to actually teach anything.


After a few lessons of not improving  they  start to blame equipment and get advice a guy who tell them need to buy clubs that you can't tell where you hit the ball on the face or a driver that has an adjustment that makes you hook the ball.

If they just kept things simple most of them actually would improve every time they go out.

Edited by tiger1873, 14 November 2018 - 11:55 AM.


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#51 Forged4ever

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 12:49 PM

The real reason that most golfers donít improve with practice?

Simple, lol

They donít know what to practice, when to practice it, why they are practicing it or how to practice it~

I hope that youíve hadda nice season Gator👊

Cheers🍻
RP

Edited by Forged4ever, 14 November 2018 - 12:49 PM.

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#52 Obee

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 12:57 PM

View PostForged4ever, on 14 November 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

The real reason that most golfers don’t improve with practice?

Simple, lol

They don’t know what to practice, when to practice it, why they are practicing it or how to practice it~

I hope that you’ve hadda nice season Gator�

Cheers�
RP

Which is pretty much the point of the original article: most people don't understand how to learn complex skills. That doesn't mean they are bad people. Or stupid. It means they don't understand it. Yet.

And this is completely separate and apart from an individual's terminal ability in any given complex skill That one is trying to improve.
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#53 elthrill

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 01:00 PM

initially, most new golfers dont improve due to course management. no question about it.  I can take any new golfer that shoots 100+ and if i walk the course with them and tell them what club to hit and where to aim.  i can get them improved 5-10 strokes.  that day.  no range time needed.  thats how abysmal most people manage their own golf games when starting out. (and many after playing for years!)

once they learn how to get around the course, they have to get into the golf swing and want to know why it works and how it works.  have to know their own swing to improve and most just dont put in the time and work.  its not easy.  we all know that.  instruction without deep commitment is generally not going to make you better. you have to know it and own it.  a few lessons wont do jack $hit. and thats where most people stop.  play the game.  like it.  try to get better.  dont get better. quit.   (but i even took lessons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

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#54 alfriday

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 02:01 PM

After reading this thread, I have to wonder how many of the people who responded, especially those who criticize the article, actually took the time to read the article.  

The premise of the article is pretty simple:  "Improving how you think during your practice sessions is a simple strategy you can utilise to increase your rate of development."  

The author then provides "Expert Thinking--The Backgound," which includes the flow chart.  This is background.  The theoretical framework.  Yes, it has some scientific terms in it.  For those of us who have a working knowledge of performance improvement science, it's pretty straight forward.  To those who are ignorant of this area, apparently it's gobbledygoop.  Fine, it's background.  You don't have to fully understand it to benefit from the article.  Because...

The author then goes on and gives two concrete examples.  Example one:  "Poor Golfer's Thinking."  You don't have to know anything about learning science to read through the example and see how your practice compares to the example.  Example two:  "Elite Golfer's Thinking."  Again, you don't have to know anything about learning science to see how it differs from the first example and to compare your own practice sessions with it.  A reader can implement the changes by following the example without getting hung up on the scientific "gobbledygoop."  

The examples provide a pretty good framework to help golfers improve faster.   And that is the point of the article.  We all have limited practice time.  If you can only practice two hours a week, how do you get the most improvement out of the two hours?    



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#55 CheckJV

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 02:38 PM

Don’t be foolish. It’s not about practice, it’s about buying new clubs.


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#56 llewol007

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 02:46 PM

A lot can be said about why a player does not get any better with practice. So much of the game is hand eye coordination. I see players who have played for 20 plus years and still cant crack 90. I have a friend who is a multi sport athlete and he shoots in the 90's all the time we play. Depends really on the foundation you have to start with. I never had any prior lesson before I took up the game. Luckily enough in high school I started working at a local golf shop and we had a couple of hitting bays. In a span of I would say 2 years, I was able to shoot in the mid 80's. Only when I practiced on my own and most of the issue for me was short game, did my scores improve. Most players now a days I say work too much on having the perfect golf swing and really lose the time needed to work on the short game which is what can really improve their scores. A buddy of mine told me if you have a solid short game, its like picking up and extra stroke from tee to green. Golf is a lot about timing as well and as many of us can attest, even the pros have a tough time with perfect timing. So imagine asking a novice player who practices once a week to see if his timing can be consistent enough to reproduce the same swing over and over is about as close to impossible.
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#57 Nard_S

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 04:03 PM

The process the article lays out is highly similar to what is used in TQM manufacturing methods. It's the reason planes don't fall out of the sky and Toyota's go 300K without a hiccup even though there's 10's of thousands of components in both. The learning/improvement process is ongoing and does not end at the lesson or process plan. It's continual, it has a matrix to evaluate and adjust in real time and do better on the next effort. There's good stuff here and frankly I need to adopt it more even though I've gotten companies ISO registered, lol.

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#58 oikos1

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:12 PM

View Postalfriday, on 14 November 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

After reading this thread, I have to wonder how many of the people who responded, especially those who criticize the article, actually took the time to read the article.  

The premise of the article is pretty simple:  "Improving how you think during your practice sessions is a simple strategy you can utilise to increase your rate of development."  

The author then provides "Expert Thinking--The Backgound," which includes the flow chart.  This is background.  The theoretical framework.  Yes, it has some scientific terms in it.  For those of us who have a working knowledge of performance improvement science, it's pretty straight forward.  To those who are ignorant of this area, apparently it's gobbledygoop.  Fine, it's background.  You don't have to fully understand it to benefit from the article.  Because...

The author then goes on and gives two concrete examples.  Example one:  "Poor Golfer's Thinking."  You don't have to know anything about learning science to read through the example and see how your practice compares to the example.  Example two:  "Elite Golfer's Thinking."  Again, you don't have to know anything about learning science to see how it differs from the first example and to compare your own practice sessions with it.  A reader can implement the changes by following the example without getting hung up on the scientific "gobbledygoop."  

The examples provide a pretty good framework to help golfers improve faster.   And that is the point of the article.  We all have limited practice time.  If you can only practice two hours a week, how do you get the most improvement out of the two hours?



Wait a minute.  I did read the article, and if someone doesn't improve after a years practice at two hours a week, does it really matter what they are thinking?  Seriously, who practices any recreational activity for two hours a week for a year and doesn't improve?  If true, probably time to try something else.  Golf isn't for everyone.

Great thinking and getting better at golf

Changing a golfer’s thinking in this way will make no visible difference over the course of three shots on a golf range. However, extend this new cycle of thinking out over a year’s practice (13,000 reps as an estimate for a golfer who practices 2 hours a week*) and we see a new golfer emerge.

*100 golf balls a week = 100 cycles

80 shots on a golf course a week = 80 cycles

40 putts and chips a week = 80 cycles

Total = 260 cycles per week

50 weeks practice = 13,000 cycles / year

This process is the difference between the golfer who still plays off 19 at the end of the year and the one who is now a 13 handicapper. Or the 4 handicapper who keeps hovering between 4 and 5 and the one who gets down to a 1-handicap and shoots under par on a good day.

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#59 alfriday

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 06:43 PM

Perhaps you should read it again.

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#60 oikos1

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 08:23 PM

View Postalfriday, on 14 November 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

Perhaps you should read it again.

I did, and the author provides zero evidence for his ultimate conclusion: "This process is the difference between the golfer who still plays off 19 at the end of the year and the one who is now a 13 handicapper."

The article doesn't answer your question either: "If you can only practice two hours a week, how do you get the most improvement out of the two hours?"

However, i have heard that a 90's shooter can become a 70's shooter just through meta-awareness, so there is that.


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