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Nicklaus golf courses (only if you like his work)

jack nicklaus architect

107 replies to this topic

#61 FairwayFred

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 06:52 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 06 November 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

I don't believe RK has played Muirfield Village (based on his posts) though not playing a course has never stopped him from having a strong opinion on it.

This is true.   I've never played Pine Valley either but have seen enough to agree it's a very special place.  

Sorry if you can't form an opinion of a course without playing it.  Most of us can.

I knew the Taj Mahal was spectacular before I went to see it.  

This isn't a strange concept.  Lots can be learned from pictures, videos and reading other people's observations.

Sorry your just kidding yourself if you think you can have an informed opinion about a golf course that you have never seen.  You can have an opinion, it just doesn't really count for much until you have actually seen the course.  There's so much that is missed in pics and on TV (there's so much subtlety to a great golf course none of which can be seen without actually being on the grounds) but I'm sure you know that if we're truly being honest.

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 06 November 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm happy to believe MV could be a really enjoyable course, but I've never heard a parkland course running through a housing estate being called spectacular.

Like Pebble Beach?  

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder.

It sure helps when that beholders eye has actually seen the course they are talking about.

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#62 MichaelJScott

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 06:59 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 04 November 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

Here is my entire list.  I would love to play Muirfield Village some day.  I expect to play Punta Espada some day too.


Bears Best
Breckenridge Golf Club
Cabo Del Sol - Ocean
Castle Pines Country Club
Castle Pines Golf Club
Club Campestre San Jose
Country Club of the South
Desert Mountain Apache
Desert Mountain Chiricahua
Desert Mountain Cochise
Desert Mountain Geronimo
Desert Mountain Outlaw
Desert Mountain Renegade
Eagle Bend
Eldorado
English Turn
Flintrock Falls
Glen Abbey
Grand Cypress New Course
Hills of Lakeway
Hualalai
Kauai Lagoons Kiele
La Paloma
Las Campanas - Sunset
Monte Rei
Old Greenwood
Palmilla
PGA National - Champion
PGA West - Nicklaus
Pronghorn
Puerto Los Cabos
Reflection Bay
Sherwood Country Club
Shoal Creek
Summit Rock
The Bull
The Challenge at Manele
The Eagles, Forest Course
Vista Vallarta - Nicklaus
Old Greenwood is $$$ make sure to go mid late summer for best conditions because the course has to recover from the snowmelt.

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#63 duffer987

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Posted 07 November 2018 - 07:07 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 06 November 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm happy to believe MV could be a really enjoyable course, but I've never heard a parkland course running through a housing estate being called spectacular.

Like Pebble Beach?  

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder.
Pebble Beach does indeed have some houses around the edges, but I would hardly say it's the same as MV in that regard.
Pebble also has Stillwater Cove and back-to-back-to-back par 4s that are about as spectacular a stretch of par 4s as there is, with quality shot values to match.

Sure things can be in the eye of the beholder, but a word's definition isn't.

And as has been pointed out already, really hard to judge anything about a course without being on property for one and more importantly playing it, of which I've not done.

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#64 Roadking2003

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:33 AM

View PostFairwayFred, on 07 November 2018 - 06:52 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 06 November 2018 - 08:25 PM, said:

I don't believe RK has played Muirfield Village (based on his posts) though not playing a course has never stopped him from having a strong opinion on it.

This is true.   I've never played Pine Valley either but have seen enough to agree it's a very special place.  

Sorry if you can't form an opinion of a course without playing it.  Most of us can.

I knew the Taj Mahal was spectacular before I went to see it.  

This isn't a strange concept.  Lots can be learned from pictures, videos and reading other people's observations.

Sorry your just kidding yourself if you think you can have an informed opinion about a golf course that you have never seen.  You can have an opinion, it just doesn't really count for much until you have actually seen the course.  There's so much that is missed in pics and on TV (there's so much subtlety to a great golf course none of which can be seen without actually being on the grounds) but I'm sure you know that if we're truly being honest.

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 06 November 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm happy to believe MV could be a really enjoyable course, but I've never heard a parkland course running through a housing estate being called spectacular.

Like Pebble Beach?  

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder.

It sure helps when that beholders eye has actually seen the course they are talking about.

I agree that an opinion is better formed after playing a course.

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#65 Roadking2003

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:37 AM

View PostMichaelJScott, on 07 November 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Old Greenwood is $$$ make sure to go mid late summer for best conditions because the course has to recover from the snowmelt.

Yes, and I'm going there again next Sept.

Last time I played it the fee was $125 which is certainly not high for these courses.


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#66 MarkCPA

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:02 AM

I've always had a love / hate relationship with Nicklaus courses.   I either really, really love it or just can't stand it.    Of the loves there are two that I've played that jump out - Pinehurst No. 9 (originally named National Golf Club of Pinehurst) and Spring Creek Ranch in Collierville, TN.
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#67 cardoustie

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:48 AM

I've played almost 500 courses in 38 years of golf

I don't know how many are Jack's.  I'm assuming I have done a load in the SE US and in AZ and NV

I can say that Muirfield Village is in my top 10.   INCREDIBLE !!!

Locally, Glen Abbey is awful

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#68 Argonne69

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:53 AM

Here's a map of Jack's courses:

http://www.nicklaus.com/design/map.php

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#69 Roadking2003

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 09:03 AM

Interesting map.  Most of his new work appears to be international.

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#70 Argonne69

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 10:45 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 09 November 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

Interesting map.  Most of his new work appears to be international.

The golf building boom came to a crashing halt during the Great Recession, so most of the work during the last decade was shifted overseas.


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#71 dminutella

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 10:47 AM

Colleton River (there's also a Dye course here, which in my opinion is tougher)
May River
Reflection Bay

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#72 CMCSGolf

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 11:53 AM

It should be said that Muirfield Village is a really good course.  I don't think anyone has said it's not, but worth stating.  I also think it's true that it is vastly overrated due to the Memorial and ties to Jack.  It does not belong in the top 100 in my view because it is a bad walk, too many trees, and the set up always has tough rough that makes it hard for normal golfers.  Playing MV is an awesome experience and hit some hero shots, but it is penal and that would wear on me if I had to play it every day.

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#73 mallrat

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Another reason I donít think Jack has many new courses in the US is the new minimalist approach. Working on and having played a few, Jackís courses are a NIGHTMARE maintenance wise. Our other course is quite a bit larger than the Nicklaus course including double the bunker acreage and almost double the greens acreage and takes about 1/2 to 2/3 of the work.

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#74 Boricua Golf

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 05:31 AM

Played Potomac Shores in Virginia, very challenging, blind tee shots, sloping fairways and greens and not to mention super fast greens as well, receptive but very fast. Truly enjoyed it.
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#75 Roadking2003

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 08:20 AM

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Nobody is doing that.   I don't think Golf Digest rates MV #15 for the ocean views.  They rate it #15 for the golf holes.

You could easily conclude that they would rate it much higher if it were on the coast.


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#76 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 08:49 AM

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Another reason I don’t think Jack has many new courses in the US is the new minimalist approach. Working on and having played a few, Jack’s courses are a NIGHTMARE maintenance wise. Our other course is quite a bit larger than the Nicklaus course including double the bunker acreage and almost double the greens acreage and takes about 1/2 to 2/3 of the work.

What is it that causes the extra work MR, all the mounding?
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#77 FairwayFred

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 11:40 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 06 November 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm happy to believe MV could be a really enjoyable course, but I've never heard a parkland course running through a housing estate being called spectacular.

Like Pebble Beach?  

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder.



View PostRoadking2003, on 10 November 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Nobody is doing that.   I don't think Golf Digest rates MV #15 for the ocean views.  They rate it #15 for the golf holes.

You could easily conclude that they would rate it much higher if it were on the coast.

You literally directly compare it to Pebble Beach in the post above when someone brought up MV being in a housing development.

Also Golf Digest does not rate courses simply by the holes as you suggest.  Their rankings are a combination of the following factors.

Shot Values
Resistance to Scoring
Design Variety
Memorability
Aesthetics
Conditioning
Ambiance

And GD has specific definitions for all the catagories above that are taken into account when any ranking is done.
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#78 Matt J

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 11:49 AM

Jack's team was very aggressive back in the hey days of the late 80's and nineties.  I worked for a development team that tied up a really nice piece of land.  Not spectacular mind you, but has some topography, a spring fed lake, and lots of mature trees.  We interviewed 3 local to the state GCA's and 3 big international firms.  Nicklaus's firm's pitch was basically that homes on a course with his name on it sold for X % more than the industry average.  His design fees were higher but the argument being that if you priced the lots accordingly you could recoup the expense.  Some guys took comfort in being under the umbrella of the Golden Bear. 🐻. We did not.  I was proud to convince the team to leave it as natural space and create walking / biking trails maintained by the HOA and hit a different demographic.  I think in the long run the project was more sustainable over a longer period of time.

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#79 Roadking2003

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 07:01 PM

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 November 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:

View Postduffer987, on 06 November 2018 - 09:52 PM, said:

I'm happy to believe MV could be a really enjoyable course, but I've never heard a parkland course running through a housing estate being called spectacular.

Like Pebble Beach?  

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder.



View PostRoadking2003, on 10 November 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Nobody is doing that.   I don't think Golf Digest rates MV #15 for the ocean views.  They rate it #15 for the golf holes.

You could easily conclude that they would rate it much higher if it were on the coast.

You literally directly compare it to Pebble Beach in the post above when someone brought up MV being in a housing development.



You have a bad habit of twisting other people's words. Do you spend all day looking for posts where you might be able to find something to challenge?

The post I responded to was " How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

I never made that comparison.  I said Pebble also winds through a neighborhood like MV does which is 100% true.

If you can't be honest, save both of us some time and just ignore my posts.

Edited by Roadking2003, 10 November 2018 - 07:02 PM.


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#80 mallrat

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 07:46 PM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 10 November 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Another reason I donít think Jack has many new courses in the US is the new minimalist approach. Working on and having played a few, Jackís courses are a NIGHTMARE maintenance wise. Our other course is quite a bit larger than the Nicklaus course including double the bunker acreage and almost double the greens acreage and takes about 1/2 to 2/3 of the work.

What is it that causes the extra work MR, all the mounding?

On my course and some others that I know of itís multiple things that most likely go unnoticed.

1. Mounding around the bunkers, 4 acres of bunkers to fly mow and that doesnít include the creeks.

2. Greens, they were designed to be walk mowed. On a tri-plex it takes us around 5 hours. The collars to rough to bunker is extremely tight and is a pain to do 3 or 5 point turns without marking or bruising the grass. Not to mention top dressing and dragging the greens

2. Bunker design, we have adapted a few to accommodate the sand pro but if we have to hand rake them you are looking at 4-5 people and taking 5+ hours.

3. Island tees, which look cool, stink to maintain. They will all start turtlebacking eventually. They grow taller due to topdressing which makes getting the walkmowers and other equipment up on them a pain. The edges donít hold water so the get bare or die quickly.

4. I donít know what it is but my old course we could mow all fairways in 6-8 hrs with 2 people. Here it takes 4-6 people 7-8 hours.

5. His plan for irrigation, stupid to most but 1/2 of the quick couplers barely reach 1/2 way across the fairway.

Just a few. That said, the course is almost always in pristine condition


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#81 mallrat

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 07:52 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 10 November 2018 - 07:01 PM, said:

View PostFairwayFred, on 10 November 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 07 November 2018 - 06:25 PM, said:



Like Pebble Beach?  

Spectacular is in the eye of the beholder.



View PostRoadking2003, on 10 November 2018 - 08:20 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Nobody is doing that.   I don't think Golf Digest rates MV #15 for the ocean views.  They rate it #15 for the golf holes.

You could easily conclude that they would rate it much higher if it were on the coast.

You literally directly compare it to Pebble Beach in the post above when someone brought up MV being in a housing development.



You have a bad habit of twisting other people's words. Do you spend all day looking for posts where you might be able to find something to challenge?

The post I responded to was " How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

I never made that comparison.  I said Pebble also winds through a neighborhood like MV does which is 100% true.

If you can't be honest, save both of us some time and just ignore my posts.

Wasnít trying to start anything I was just saying that Pebble doesnít truly wind through housing. Yes there are houses on the course but itís not like it winds through a housing tract. The course winds along the coastline with houses bordering it. The vast majority of other courses are built into housing tracts or I get the feel the course exists because of the houses where at Pebble I get the feel the houses exist because of the course (I know thatís not the case)

That said I havrnít Played Pebble but stayed in one of the houses that sits on the course

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#82 FairwayFred

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 07:58 PM

RK

I just posted your words they speak for themselves.  No need for anyone to twist anything in fact all I did was quote you directly.  Your the one that brought Pebble into the conversation and made the comparison.  And just to be clear Pebble is bordered by houses MV winds through a housing development there is a big difference between the 2 especially when it comes to a golf course.  I can understand tho seeing that you have never been to or seen MV that you might not get that distinction.
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#83 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 09:48 PM

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 10 November 2018 - 08:49 AM, said:

View Postmallrat, on 10 November 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

How are you guys comparing one of the most spectacular stretches of coastline in the continental US to a neighborhood in the Midwest?

Another reason I don’t think Jack has many new courses in the US is the new minimalist approach. Working on and having played a few, Jack’s courses are a NIGHTMARE maintenance wise. Our other course is quite a bit larger than the Nicklaus course including double the bunker acreage and almost double the greens acreage and takes about 1/2 to 2/3 of the work.

What is it that causes the extra work MR, all the mounding?

On my course and some others that I know of it’s multiple things that most likely go unnoticed.

1. Mounding around the bunkers, 4 acres of bunkers to fly mow and that doesn’t include the creeks.

2. Greens, they were designed to be walk mowed. On a tri-plex it takes us around 5 hours. The collars to rough to bunker is extremely tight and is a pain to do 3 or 5 point turns without marking or bruising the grass. Not to mention top dressing and dragging the greens

2. Bunker design, we have adapted a few to accommodate the sand pro but if we have to hand rake them you are looking at 4-5 people and taking 5+ hours.

3. Island tees, which look cool, stink to maintain. They will all start turtlebacking eventually. They grow taller due to topdressing which makes getting the walkmowers and other equipment up on them a pain. The edges don’t hold water so the get bare or die quickly.

4. I don’t know what it is but my old course we could mow all fairways in 6-8 hrs with 2 people. Here it takes 4-6 people 7-8 hours.

5. His plan for irrigation, stupid to most but 1/2 of the quick couplers barely reach 1/2 way across the fairway.

Just a few. That said, the course is almost always in pristine condition

Thanks Mallrat.  A lot of things not noticed or thought about by the outside world.
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#84 benno_r

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 10:19 PM

I have played a few courses of his in the Australasin region. Many are fine courses, with nothing to make them wow.
Lakelands GC (Australia)
The Australian GC (Australia)
Heritage - St Johns (Australia)
Legend GC (Malaysia)
Mission Hills (Thailand)
Mission Hills World Cup (China)
Reunion (Kississmee)

The one I have played though that was an absolute joy was Kinloch in Taupo, NZ. Built over very undulating land, it was much more "linksy", and seem far more natural than all his other courses.

It was so much unlike the others, and just an absolute pleasure to play. I am not sure if builds other courses like that around, but if he does I would love to play them.

Edited by benno_r, 11 November 2018 - 04:36 AM.

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#85 br61

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 10:08 AM

View Postexgolfpro, on 05 November 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

I guess I've played 4.  Ranked in order are...

1) The Bull at Pinehurst Farms-in my top 10 off all the courses I've every played.
2) Winghaven CC-fun course.  Probably as difficult as The Bull.  Has a tunnel cart path as part of the course is across a road.
3) Dalhousie GC--good course, but a few forgettable holes.  Conditioning is usually great.
4) Stonewolf GC (Illinois)-Always been a weird course to me.  Has several really good memorable holes and about 10 forgettable ones.

I agree with you about Stonewolf, I used to play it often around 2000. Winghaven too as I lived about 2-3 miles away from it for 5 years. Several holes at Stonewolf are kinda weird. Dalhousie is always a fun course to play on. I wish it wasn't 4 hours away across the state.

I did play at Governor's Club in Chapel Hill, NC in 1992. It was a very nice course. I do not remember much about it but there aren't many holes where one can run up their approaches.

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#86 sabram

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 10:19 AM

Here are photos of a few Nicklaus courses I've played.  Unfortunately, I played a few of my favorites, including Reflection Bay before I started taking photos. A few of the ones below I don't think were mentioned yet on this thread such as Turtle Point at Kiawah Island, Long Bay in Myrtle Beach and Grand Bear in Mississippi. I didn't include a photo of Angeles National as I don't think that is Jack's course. If interested in full photo tours of these courses here's a link: https://www.flickr.c...coursepix/sets/  

Posted Image
The Chase at Coyote Springs #2 par 5

Posted Image
Bears Best #18

Posted Image
Desert Mountain Chiracahua #17

Posted Image
Desert Mountain Cochise #7 par 3

Posted Image
Punta Espada #13 par 3 223 yds  612x

Posted Image
Reynolds Great Waters #11 green

Posted Image
Kiawah Turtle Point #6 from tee

Posted Image
Grand Bear #16 par 3

Posted Image
Grand Cypress New #15 par 5

Posted Image
Grand Cypress East #7 approach

Posted Image
Long Bay #10 right side of green

Posted Image
Reunion Nicklaus #2 from tee

Posted Image
Dove Mtn Saguaro #3 par 3

Edited by sabram, 11 November 2018 - 10:30 AM.


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#87 FairwayFred

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Posted 11 November 2018 - 11:31 AM

I really enjoy Grand Cypress New also that could arguably have made my top 5.  Fun course to play that's unique in the area.
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#88 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 12 November 2018 - 11:15 AM

Sabram, your pictures are always so good. I can’t ever capture depth or elevation.
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#89 schley

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 01:35 PM

Have only played 10 Nicklaus designs so not an expert, but certainly have strong feeling about his work I have seen.  His 80/90's stuff is just hard and in some cases unnecessarily.  Bunkers everywhere and rarely can you run the ball in.  

My favorite design is Mayacama, which is just North of wine country of Napa up in Santa Maria.  Wonderful setting through the forest and mountains up there.  Design was very solid as the greens had some tilt and imo he didn't go crazy with bunkers.  He could have cut down a few more trees as you can be blocked out by angles.

Next favorite is Bear Creek in Murrieta,Ca for it's sheer toughness.  Prime mid 80's difficult.

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#90 Roadking2003

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Posted 14 November 2018 - 05:07 PM

View Postsabram, on 11 November 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

Here are photos of a few Nicklaus courses I've played.  Unfortunately, I played a few of my favorites, including Reflection Bay before I started taking photos. A few of the ones below I don't think were mentioned yet on this thread such as Turtle Point at Kiawah Island, Long Bay in Myrtle Beach and Grand Bear in Mississippi. I didn't include a photo of Angeles National as I don't think that is Jack's course. If interested in full photo tours of these courses here's a link: https://www.flickr.c...coursepix/sets/  


Very nice.  Here is #18 at Chiracahua; view from the restaurant. A great finishing hole.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Chiracahua #18.JPG


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