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Putting with flag in (MERGED)


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#271 Shilgy

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

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#272 bladehunter

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:44 PM

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

I truly believe that if the RandA ran it all the game and its players would be better served.

Wed get a handicap system based off real comps and no self posting .... and the how can we get more drunks away from football and onto a golf course tactics would stop.   The game should be grown organically from kid level up.  It will only get so big without bastardizing it.   When you start making it easier to play youre well on your way.  

If what we got was a compromise ( as its been reported ) between the USga and the r and a , I know whos thoughts id have voted for.
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#273 jmck

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:56 PM

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

Unlike the USGA, once per year the R&A manages to successfully stage their biggest event without stepping all over their own d*cjs. Thus they get the benefit of the doubt.

Also the USGA has an annual income of ~$200m while the R&A is at about us$75m, so you can guess who’s driving the car there.


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#274 Shilgy

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:47 PM

 jmck, on 09 January 2019 - 05:56 PM, said:

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

Unlike the USGA, once per year the R&A manages to successfully stage their biggest event without stepping all over their own d*cjs. Thus they get the benefit of the doubt.

Also the USGA has an annual income of ~$200m while the R&A is at about us$75m, so you can guess whos driving the car there.
I probably phrased my post poorly but I was referring to the rules changes only. A collaboration but all of the blame and vitriol is directed at the USGA.
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#275 Mr. Hogan

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:53 PM

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

 jmck, on 09 January 2019 - 05:56 PM, said:

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

Unlike the USGA, once per year the R&A manages to successfully stage their biggest event without stepping all over their own d*cjs. Thus they get the benefit of the doubt.

Also the USGA has an annual income of ~$200m while the R&A is at about us$75m, so you can guess who's driving the car there.
I probably phrased my post poorly but I was referring to the rules changes only. A collaboration but all of the blame and vitriol is directed at the USGA.

To be honest, about the only time I ever think of the R&A is when the British Open is being played. But I'm an American.


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#276 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 08:14 AM

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

 jmck, on 09 January 2019 - 05:56 PM, said:

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

Unlike the USGA, once per year the R&A manages to successfully stage their biggest event without stepping all over their own d*cjs. Thus they get the benefit of the doubt.

Also the USGA has an annual income of ~$200m while the R&A is at about us$75m, so you can guess who's driving the car there.
I probably phrased my post poorly but I was referring to the rules changes only. A collaboration but all of the blame and vitriol is directed at the USGA.
Perhaps most of our friends who live in the areas governed by the R&A are more tolerant of differing opinions than we are in the USGA areas.  Perhaps the USGA-governed folks are more prone to hyperbole, exaggerating the impact of the rule, or the changes, and condemning the organization rather than recognizing a simple disagreement.  To me, their management of a a single highly visible tournament a  year is a separate issue from maintaining and revising the rules that govern play.

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#277 jasonfish11

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 09:01 AM

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 10:47 PM, said:

 jmck, on 09 January 2019 - 05:56 PM, said:

 Shilgy, on 09 January 2019 - 05:26 PM, said:

I realize WRX is in general a US website. We certainly have some posts from across the pond but mostly we are from the US. That said-why is it always the USGA's fault?  Why is this not considered an R&A clown show?

Unlike the USGA, once per year the R&A manages to successfully stage their biggest event without stepping all over their own d*cjs. Thus they get the benefit of the doubt.

Also the USGA has an annual income of ~$200m while the R&A is at about us$75m, so you can guess who's driving the car there.
I probably phrased my post poorly but I was referring to the rules changes only. A collaboration but all of the blame and vitriol is directed at the USGA.

I think they are equally to blame.  That being said I agree with an above poster who said they think the game would be better run if the USGA died and the R&A ran everything.  There are some exceptions to this, as I don't think the elite running the R&A are as open to diversity as those in the US.  But as far as the rules and direction of the game I think the R&A is better than the USGA.  

But since it was a joint effort I'm ok splitting the blame between the 2 of them.

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#278 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 10:47 AM

 jasonfish11, on 10 January 2019 - 09:01 AM, said:


I think they are equally to blame.  That being said I agree with an above poster who said they think the game would be better run if the USGA died and the R&A ran everything.  There are some exceptions to this, as I don't think the elite running the R&A are as open to diversity as those in the US.  But as far as the rules and direction of the game I think the R&A is better than the USGA.

But since it was a joint effort I'm ok splitting the blame between the 2 of them.
I can't agree or disagree with you, as I simply can't separate the two, so I ask why do make that differentiation?  Outside of a couple of three-steps-removed quotes, do you have any press releases or interviews that really show differences between the two?

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#279 Konklifer

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:58 PM

 straightshot7, on 04 January 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

 davep043, on 04 January 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

 straightshot7, on 04 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

When we see guys hammering 5 footers into the flagstick this year on the PGA Tour, let me know if you're still okay with it.

It might not be a bad thing, but it will certainly change the game.
We'll see.  The problem with "hammering 5-footers" is that even the best players miss.  If you miss a putt you're trying to hammer, you're going to have another 5-footer, and that one is missable too.  In my opinion, most players will continue to try to get the speed about right, to minimize those lengthy come-backers.

Okay, but I bet we see some guys who aren't very good putters trying this. Probably more so on 3-4 footers.

Either way, how (some) pros putt is almost certainly going to be affected.

And why? To potentially speed up play a little?

Was it worth changing putting!?

I don't think it will last. I don't think the USGA understood the potential ramifications when they proposed this change. I think we will eventually see flagsticks that are not receptive or a retraction of the rule change.

If someone is a bad putter, they're not going to be able to strike the ball well enough to make a straight putt that will consistently hit the pin. Doesn't matter if it's three feet or thirty-three.

Edited by Konklifer, 10 January 2019 - 01:06 PM.

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#280 gioreeko

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:33 PM

 Konklifer, on 10 January 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

 straightshot7, on 04 January 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

 davep043, on 04 January 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

 straightshot7, on 04 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

When we see guys hammering 5 footers into the flagstick this year on the PGA Tour, let me know if you're still okay with it.

It might not be a bad thing, but it will certainly change the game.
We'll see.  The problem with "hammering 5-footers" is that even the best players miss.  If you miss a putt you're trying to hammer, you're going to have another 5-footer, and that one is missable too.  In my opinion, most players will continue to try to get the speed about right, to minimize those lengthy come-backers.

Okay, but I bet we see some guys who aren't very good putters trying this. Probably more so on 3-4 footers.

Either way, how (some) pros putt is almost certainly going to be affected.

And why? To potentially speed up play a little?

Was it worth changing putting!?

I don't think it will last. I don't think the USGA understood the potential ramifications when they proposed this change. I think we will eventually see flagsticks that are not receptive or a retraction of the rule change.

If someone is a bad putter, they're not going to be able to strike the ball well enough to make a straight putt that will consistently hit the pin. Doesn't matter if it's three feet or thirty-three.

I've seen some of the best putters on tour completely miss the hole from under 5 feet, heck, even 2 feet on rare occasions. To think anyone is going to add more pace to a short putt knowing that they'll hit a thin stick is delusional.

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#281 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:34 PM

View Postgioreeko, on 10 January 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:


I've seen some of the best putters on tour completely miss the hole from under 5 feet, heck, even 2 feet on rare occasions. To think anyone is going to add more pace to a short putt knowing that they'll hit a thin stick is delusional.
Oh, I'm absolutely certain that some players will try to do that.  Its not delusional on my part for thinking they'll do it, its delusional on their part to think that they're good enough to make it pay off.

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#282 kekoa

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:11 PM

I've tried it on a few occasions now and my putting has gotten worse.  Like way worse.

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#283 straightshot7

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:12 PM

View Postgioreeko, on 10 January 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

View PostKonklifer, on 10 January 2019 - 12:58 PM, said:

View Poststraightshot7, on 04 January 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 04 January 2019 - 03:07 PM, said:

View Poststraightshot7, on 04 January 2019 - 02:56 PM, said:

When we see guys hammering 5 footers into the flagstick this year on the PGA Tour, let me know if you're still okay with it.

It might not be a bad thing, but it will certainly change the game.
We'll see.  The problem with "hammering 5-footers" is that even the best players miss.  If you miss a putt you're trying to hammer, you're going to have another 5-footer, and that one is missable too.  In my opinion, most players will continue to try to get the speed about right, to minimize those lengthy come-backers.

Okay, but I bet we see some guys who aren't very good putters trying this. Probably more so on 3-4 footers.

Either way, how (some) pros putt is almost certainly going to be affected.

And why? To potentially speed up play a little?

Was it worth changing putting!?

I don't think it will last. I don't think the USGA understood the potential ramifications when they proposed this change. I think we will eventually see flagsticks that are not receptive or a retraction of the rule change.

If someone is a bad putter, they're not going to be able to strike the ball well enough to make a straight putt that will consistently hit the pin. Doesn't matter if it's three feet or thirty-three.

I've seen some of the best putters on tour completely miss the hole from under 5 feet, heck, even 2 feet on rare occasions. To think anyone is going to add more pace to a short putt knowing that they'll hit a thin stick is delusional.

Why is it delusional? You failed to explain that part.

It is delusional to think there will not be times when guys are less fearful on downhill 4-5 footers, knowing they have the flagstick there.

We may see guys experiment with hitting putts firmer then they normally would, yes. And having the flagstick in will undoubtedly affect the psyche of some/most putters.

I don't think that the USGA foresaw those effects.

If you don't think the flagstick affects people at all, then okay. But ask anyone from PGA Tour players to recreational golfers and they will almost all tell you that it does (mostly mentally).

Maybe my examples weren't the best, but I guarantee we see at least one putt miss this year because of the flagstick. And we will see at least one putt made, only because of the flagstick. So, it will affect scores and potentially the way people putt (as mentioned above). Whereas I think the USGA only intended for it to simplify the rules and speed up play.

Dave Pelz already did a pretty scientific look at it and found "
You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in." https://www.golf.com...ule-change-2018

So, as I said before, the rule essentially changes putting and potentially scoring. That's a big deal in the long run.

Edited by straightshot7, 10 January 2019 - 03:00 PM.


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#284 jasonfish11

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:04 PM

View Postdavep043, on 10 January 2019 - 10:47 AM, said:

View Postjasonfish11, on 10 January 2019 - 09:01 AM, said:

I think they are equally to blame.  That being said I agree with an above poster who said they think the game would be better run if the USGA died and the R&A ran everything.  There are some exceptions to this, as I don't think the elite running the R&A are as open to diversity as those in the US.  But as far as the rules and direction of the game I think the R&A is better than the USGA.

But since it was a joint effort I'm ok splitting the blame between the 2 of them.
I can't agree or disagree with you, as I simply can't separate the two, so I ask why do make that differentiation?  Outside of a couple of three-steps-removed quotes, do you have any press releases or interviews that really show differences between the two?

Good point.  I really can't tell a difference between them.  So they both suck.

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#285 DK<80

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 03:57 PM

I had both positive and negative reactions to the flagstick being in over the weekend.  I caught myself this weekend hitting a downhill putt much harder than I should have/would have and I realized afterwards that it absolutely had something to do with the stick being in.  I subconsciously thought the flag would slow it down if it was too fast....how arrogant to think I was going to hit the stick for sure!

Thankfully made the putt coming back though :)

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#286 bladehunter

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:00 PM

View Postkekoa, on 10 January 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

I've tried it on a few occasions now and my putting has gotten worse.  Like way worse.

Me too man.  

Again yesterday.  Just garbage speed.  Next round is pin out.   We shall see.
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#287 Shilgy

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:01 PM

View Poststraightshot7, on 10 January 2019 - 02:12 PM, said:

Why is it delusional? You failed to explain that part.

It is delusional to think there will not be times when guys are less fearful on downhill 4-5 footers, knowing they have the flagstick there.

We may see guys experiment with hitting putts firmer then they normally would, yes. And having the flagstick in will undoubtedly affect the psyche of some/most putters.

I don't think that the USGA foresaw those effects.

If you don't think the flagstick affects people at all, then okay. But ask anyone from PGA Tour players to recreational golfers and they will almost all tell you that it does (mostly mentally).

Maybe my examples weren't the best, but I guarantee we see at least one putt miss this year because of the flagstick. And we will see at least one putt made, only because of the flagstick. So, it will affect scores and potentially the way people putt (as mentioned above). Whereas I think the USGA only intended for it to simplify the rules and speed up play.

Dave Pelz already did a pretty scientific look at it and found "
You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in." https://www.golf.com...ule-change-2018

So, as I said before, the rule essentially changes putting and potentially scoring. That's a big deal in the long run.
It is interesting that Pelz refers to his original study in this article. Wasn't the original about chipping? And tested rolls that would have gone 3, 6 and 9 feet by the hole?  I am not sure that is the best test to cite for coming to a conclusion for putting where folks tend to have a bit better speed control than when chipping..

The correct link-the above did not work
https://www.golf.com...ule-change-2018

Edited by Shilgy, 10 January 2019 - 04:03 PM.

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#288 davep043

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:06 PM

View PostDK<80, on 10 January 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

I had both positive and negative reactions to the flagstick being in over the weekend.  I caught myself this weekend hitting a downhill putt much harder than I should have/would have and I realized afterwards that it absolutely had something to do with the stick being in.  I subconsciously thought the flag would slow it down if it was too fast....how arrogant to think I was going to hit the stick for sure!

Thankfully made the putt coming back though :)
Did you leave the flagstick in for the second one, the one you made?

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#289 DK<80

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 04:40 PM

View Postdavep043, on 10 January 2019 - 04:06 PM, said:

View PostDK<80, on 10 January 2019 - 03:57 PM, said:

I had both positive and negative reactions to the flagstick being in over the weekend.  I caught myself this weekend hitting a downhill putt much harder than I should have/would have and I realized afterwards that it absolutely had something to do with the stick being in.  I subconsciously thought the flag would slow it down if it was too fast....how arrogant to think I was going to hit the stick for sure!

Thankfully made the putt coming back though :)
Did you leave the flagstick in for the second one, the one you made?

I did lol.  I only pulled the flag about 3-4 times all day and it was mostly due to the stick leaning in a certain direction towards where the ball should go in.
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#290 Creedo77

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 07:36 PM

Player in the Puerto Rico open Monday Q this week said a player he was paired up wanted the flag in for every putt and it slowed the group down

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#291 Mr. Hogan

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:27 AM

View PostCreedo77, on 10 January 2019 - 07:36 PM, said:

Player in the Puerto Rico open Monday Q this week said a player he was paired up wanted the flag in for every putt and it slowed the group down

I forsee fistfights over this new rule. Perhaps someone will get a broken putter shaft stabbed into their neck.

Thanks a lot USGA!

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#292 OldTomMorris

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:55 AM

Curious to see how Tiger approaches this.
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#293 jmck

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:43 AM

View PostOldTomMorris, on 11 January 2019 - 01:55 AM, said:

Curious to see how Tiger approaches this.

He's such a traditionalist I doubt he changes anything.  Maybe he'll just leave it in rather than have it tended on really long putts, but I can't see him changing the way he approaches mid- to short-range ones like BAD is doing.

On a different note, did everyone see this this morning?

https://www.golfdige...ay-surprise-you

Posted Image

Seems to make a pretty good case that for soft putts it doesn't matter, for medium speed putts there's an advantage to having the stick out, and for harder putts there's an advantage to having it in.

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#294 Z1ggy16

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:48 AM

^ how does a ball hit the back rim when the flag stick is in? I'm not sure I get these matrices. And they have a slot for "grazing the flag stick" when the stick is out? Not sure I'm understanding this test very well.

I saw one on recently where they used a stimpmeter ramp at say... 4 feet away. They got the ball moving fast enough so with the stick out, all the balls would ram into the rear of the cup, then bounce up and out. They did 5 or so in a row, all 5 did not hole out. Stuck the stick in... left everything the same, all 5 go in.

Obviosly won't matter if the ball just dives in slowly but I've seen a few different tests now showing that very firm putts that would risk hitting the back edge and bouncing out are saved by the stick being in some of the time.
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#295 davep043

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:57 AM

View Postjmck, on 11 January 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostOldTomMorris, on 11 January 2019 - 01:55 AM, said:

Curious to see how Tiger approaches this.

He's such a traditionalist I doubt he changes anything.  Maybe he'll just leave it in rather than have it tended on really long putts, but I can't see him changing the way he approaches mid- to short-range ones like BAD is doing.

On a different note, did everyone see this this morning?

https://www.golfdige...ay-surprise-you

Posted Image

Seems to make a pretty good case that for soft putts it doesn't matter, for medium speed putts there's an advantage to having the stick out, and for harder putts there's an advantage to having it in.
The problem with a matrix like this is that most of us can't control the speed exactly enough to ensure one of these specific speeds.  If we could, we'd always creep the ball over the front edge, that makes the effective width of the hole the greatest.  And if we can consistently do that, the flagstick will make no difference.  But we're not that good.  Similarly, we can't control the line/read precisely enough to know whether we'll hit the center, craze the flag, or miss completely.  Another thing not mentioned in that study is the distance remaining for putts that didn't go in.  That's a part of the consideration, at least for me.But still, its good that people are looking at this in more detail.  Data is good, interpretation of data is always a separate issue.


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#296 jmck

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:07 AM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 11 January 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

^ how does a ball hit the back rim when the flag stick is in? I'm not sure I get these matrices. And they have a slot for "grazing the flag stick" when the stick is out? Not sure I'm understanding this test very well.

I saw one on recently where they used a stimpmeter ramp at say... 4 feet away. They got the ball moving fast enough so with the stick out, all the balls would ram into the rear of the cup, then bounce up and out. They did 5 or so in a row, all 5 did not hole out. Stuck the stick in... left everything the same, all 5 go in.

Obviosly won't matter if the ball just dives in slowly but I've seen a few different tests now showing that very firm putts that would risk hitting the back edge and bouncing out are saved by the stick being in some of the time.

It's just a way for describing the speed at which the ball is hit, with the variables being where it's aimed at whether the flag is in the hole or not.

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#297 jmck

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:11 AM

View Postdavep043, on 11 January 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

View Postjmck, on 11 January 2019 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostOldTomMorris, on 11 January 2019 - 01:55 AM, said:

Curious to see how Tiger approaches this.

He's such a traditionalist I doubt he changes anything.  Maybe he'll just leave it in rather than have it tended on really long putts, but I can't see him changing the way he approaches mid- to short-range ones like BAD is doing.

On a different note, did everyone see this this morning?

https://www.golfdige...ay-surprise-you

Posted Image

Seems to make a pretty good case that for soft putts it doesn't matter, for medium speed putts there's an advantage to having the stick out, and for harder putts there's an advantage to having it in.
The problem with a matrix like this is that most of us can't control the speed exactly enough to ensure one of these specific speeds.  If we could, we'd always creep the ball over the front edge, that makes the effective width of the hole the greatest.  And if we can consistently do that, the flagstick will make no difference.  But we're not that good.  Similarly, we can't control the line/read precisely enough to know whether we'll hit the center, craze the flag, or miss completely.  Another thing not mentioned in that study is the distance remaining for putts that didn't go in.  That's a part of the consideration, at least for me.But still, its good that people are looking at this in more detail.  Data is good, interpretation of data is always a separate issue.

Fair points for sure.  For example if putt A is a 6 footer that's slippery down a hill we're all trying to trickle it in the front, whereas if it's a 6 footer that's straight up a hill we're all trying to hit it harder than putt A.  And that's in a world where we have better speed control than most of us do.

I think the chart above is trying to put the speed/flagstick data into more of a vacuum than we generally find in the real world, though I found it interesting nonetheless.

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#298 Holy Moses

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:14 AM

Dave Pelz also said that hes heard that USGA insiders did not think that Tour players would be using the pin rule to their advantage. He also said that they did not take into consideration his 1990 test.

What an inept organization.

Edited by Holy Moses, 11 January 2019 - 11:15 AM.

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#299 Z1ggy16

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:17 AM

View Postjmck, on 11 January 2019 - 11:07 AM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 11 January 2019 - 10:48 AM, said:

^ how does a ball hit the back rim when the flag stick is in? I'm not sure I get these matrices. And they have a slot for "grazing the flag stick" when the stick is out? Not sure I'm understanding this test very well.

I saw one on recently where they used a stimpmeter ramp at say... 4 feet away. They got the ball moving fast enough so with the stick out, all the balls would ram into the rear of the cup, then bounce up and out. They did 5 or so in a row, all 5 did not hole out. Stuck the stick in... left everything the same, all 5 go in.

Obviosly won't matter if the ball just dives in slowly but I've seen a few different tests now showing that very firm putts that would risk hitting the back edge and bouncing out are saved by the stick being in some of the time.

It's just a way for describing the speed at which the ball is hit, with the variables being where it's aimed at whether the flag is in the hole or not.
okay I get that. I do find it odd that if it seems to be going a touch slower... the stick hurts, but faster and it helps? And it's quite a large difference, too.
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#300 dalehead

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:18 AM

View PostOldTomMorris, on 11 January 2019 - 01:55 AM, said:

Curious to see how Tiger approaches this.

If he opts to leave it in everyone will be doing it.


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