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Lower body starts downswing: How To Feel This


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#61 bladehunter

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:00 AM

Is lower first even gospel ?

I know it goes first. But for me my lower is super quick , my thought is to start it with my right hand back to the ball.  So hands and arms first. On video of course lower leads. But if I thought lower first Id fire hips open and slide ahead of the ball and be stuck as chuck.

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#62 ebrasmus21

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:20 AM

 joshsparham, on 24 December 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

 Z1ggy16, on 02 November 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

This! Also, Monte advises most if not all of us to let the front heel rise. If you do this... first thought could also be to "slam" this front heel down. I think it naturally will help lower your hips, too.

Monte tried several different ques with me but belt buckle down worked the best to get me to: shift pressure, stay in left side bend a touch longer and regain some flexion in my hips.  All of those things were/are going on without thinking anything at all about the clubhead or my hands.  Worked for me at least.

Does Monte have a video or anything on Instagram that goes into this "belt buckle" down move?  I'm guess its kind of like push the butt back feeling

Good question, Im not sure to be honest.  If Monte sees this thread maybe he can post a link.  

This is really what it was for me.  It was really this simple but again my own experience might not apply to you.  Okay so:

1. Get to top of backswing (Monte likes extension in the backswing so keeping your head level)

2. First move from the top belt buckle down.  For me this felt like I was squatting slightly

3. Belt buckle to the target as fast as possible

That was it for me.  Hope that helps clarify

P.S. the reason I threw that mention to extension in point #1 is becaus during that same lesson Monte taught me that the golf swing has both extension and flexion but they have to be done in the proper sequence.  Extension in the backswing, flexion in transition and extension again to finish the swing.

Edited by ebrasmus21, 24 December 2018 - 10:27 AM.

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#63 joshsparham

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:25 AM

 ebrasmus21, on 24 December 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

 joshsparham, on 24 December 2018 - 08:39 AM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

 Z1ggy16, on 02 November 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

This! Also, Monte advises most if not all of us to let the front heel rise. If you do this... first thought could also be to "slam" this front heel down. I think it naturally will help lower your hips, too.

Monte tried several different ques with me but belt buckle down worked the best to get me to: shift pressure, stay in left side bend a touch longer and regain some flexion in my hips.  All of those things were/are going on without thinking anything at all about the clubhead or my hands.  Worked for me at least.

Does Monte have a video or anything on Instagram that goes into this "belt buckle" down move?  I'm guess its kind of like push the butt back feeling

Good question, I’m not sure to be honest.  If Monte sees this thread maybe he can post a link.  

This is really what it was for me.  It was really this simple but again my own experience might not apply to you.  Okay so:

1. Get to top of backswing (Monte likes extension in the backswing so keeping your head level)

2. First move from the top — belt buckle down.  For me this felt like I was squatting slightly

3. Belt buckle to the target as fast as possible

That was it for me.  Hope that helps clarify
So it's moving the belt buckle down to the ground not trying to make it "look" at the ground? A slight difference between the two

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#64 dlygrisse

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:26 AM

Just think about how you want to finish.
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#65 ebrasmus21

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM

Yes.  Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane.  Not trying to make it look at the ground.

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#66 bladehunter

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM

 dlygrisse, on 24 December 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

Just think about how you want to finish.

Yes.
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#67 glk

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 10:57 AM

Two views of what is going on.


https://www.instagra.../p/BqYLDStl_fy/

https://www.instagra.../p/Bqz3aSxFSXv/

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#68 KMeloney

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 11:10 AM

 ebrasmus21, on 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yes.  Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane.  Not trying to make it look at the ground.

Interesting. Because Russel Heritage (who I think is good) advocates the buckle looking down, iirc...

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#69 ebrasmus21

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 11:21 AM

 KMeloney, on 24 December 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yes.  Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane.  Not trying to make it look at the ground.

Interesting. Because Russel Heritage (who I think is good) advocates the buckle looking down, iirc...

I’m already kind of over my skis in this conversation.  At this point I think I should defer to the experts.  To OP and everyone else take my experience with a grain of salt.  It worked for me - YRMV.
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#70 copperjeff

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 12:33 PM

Honestly, no feel is wrong if the mechanics are correct.

You could tell me you start the downswing by crossing your eyes, and if that feel gets you a mechanically sound swing, good for you!

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#71 Hilts1969

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 08:56 AM

 copperjeff, on 24 December 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

Honestly, no feel is wrong if the mechanics are correct.

You could tell me you start the downswing by crossing your eyes, and if that feel gets you a mechanically sound swing, good for you!

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#72 OakLawnGolfPro

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:01 AM

Push down with lead foot and then feel the pressure push up through impact.   Let the rest happen.
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#73 garyt

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 05:51 PM

 ebrasmus21, on 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yes.  Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane.  Not trying to make it look at the ground.

I tried this yesterday and it worked great. Hit some really crisp shots. I videotaped myself and while I felt like I was really lowering the belt you rerally couldn't see it on video. Probably just stopped me EE and standing up, but worked great.

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#74 Scottbox

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Posted 02 January 2019 - 11:15 PM

Lots of good ways to feel it:

Left Knee "bump":
https://youtu.be/UWzPe-HSWdM

The baseball "step drill" to feel left knee in transition:
https://youtu.be/ODbSDsNPrqQ

"Bank" or roll the feet:
https://youtu.be/X8ggkeTJwmw

Push off with right foot:
https://youtu.be/0uWyto3y9R4

All of these have similar effects. You really just need to go out there with a 9-iron and drill it very slowly. You'll be amazed at how quickly you develop a sensitivity for how your feet and legs move.

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#75 elthrill

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 11:08 AM

why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it!  For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing.  Turn turn turn.  guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips!  your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it.  the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest.  i never think of my legs.

I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish.  this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action.  there is no thought to my arms at all.  its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence.  i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching.  it is simple and it works.  the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists.  this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside.   if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.


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#76 Tanner25

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 06:29 PM

 elthrill, on 03 January 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it!  For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing.  Turn turn turn.  guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips!  your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it.  the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest.  i never think of my legs.

I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish.  this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action.  there is no thought to my arms at all.  its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence.  i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching.  it is simple and it works.  the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists.  this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside.   if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.

Sounds good do you have a matching backswing thought :-)

Edited by Tanner25, 03 January 2019 - 06:29 PM.


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#77 vman

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 07:18 PM

I like to just feel my left buttock get deeper at the start of my downswing. I always rehearse this in slow motion as a practise routine and the feel enables me to really rotate in the downswing instead of sliding.
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#78 TexasTurf

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:12 PM

 Tanner25, on 03 January 2019 - 06:29 PM, said:

 elthrill, on 03 January 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it!  For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing.  Turn turn turn.  guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips!  your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it.  the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest.  i never think of my legs.

I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish.  this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action.  there is no thought to my arms at all.  its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence.  i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching.  it is simple and it works.  the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists.  this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside.   if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.

Sounds good do you have a matching backswing thought :-)

Ask and you shall receive. Start the video at 12:09, really good stuff starts at 14:45 (as far as GP's backswing thought/theory). Seems like a pretty simple idea compared to most.



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#79 vitalesan

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 10:36 PM

We need to remember that although most may feel the hops start the downswing. That doesn’t mean the hips rotate then shoulders then arms etc. it all happens together but the initiation happens through the hips, as soon  as weight shift starts the shoulders and arms follow.

For me, I feel the hips start the weight shift forward and my shoulders start and bring the arms down so the right elbow reconnects to my side. From there, the hips and shoulders are still rotating and then bring the arms around from my side though the impact zone.... so the feels for me are, hips shift weight and right elbow makes contact with side. Everything else is automatic. That is my practice swing thought and I tell myself, “I’m programmed in,” then go and do it with the thought of just the last target (body position with the elbow touching side) in my shot. That also helps slow down my tempo so it’s smooth and easy.

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#80 rgk5

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 09:47 AM

 ebrasmus21, on 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yes.  Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane.  Not trying to make it look at the ground.

If not done correctly some players will lose their spine angle with that move by tilting their torso forward AND down.

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#81 ebrasmus21

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:40 AM

View Postrgk5, on 04 January 2019 - 09:47 AM, said:

View Postebrasmus21, on 24 December 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

Yes.  Like the belt buckle is on a certain horizontal plane and you want to lower it under that plane.  Not trying to make it look at the ground.

If not done correctly some players will lose their spine angle with that move by tilting their torso forward AND down.

Then that player would be moving incorrectly, I agree.
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#82 clp34vmp

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 10:57 AM

Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.

Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.

One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.

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#83 ebrasmus21

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:09 AM

View Postclp34vmp, on 04 January 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.

Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.

One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.

So I’ve already mentioned my buckle down feeling that I got from Monte.  Something else that has helped with hip depth and rotation for me is feeling like when I get pressure into my lead foot I then push down into the ground hard whilst rotating.  I never could figure out how to rotate my hips without firing my trail leg/knee.  Firing my trail leg/knee made me lose hip depth and it generally crowded the downswing eating up the space for my arms.  

So, it finally occurred to me that once I get pressure into the lead leg the feeling is this:

- Pressure into lead leg
- Push hard into the ground
- While pushing rotate on the lead leg
- the feeling for me is almost that I have “forgotten” about my trail leg - it will follow on its own

Anyways the idea for me is to use the lead leg as the pivot point around which I can get my hips to clear in the downswing.  That might be common knowledge, idk, it just never occurred to me until recently.  

As I mentioned before, I’m not a pro nor an instructor.  These are just ideas that seem to be working for me lately.
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#84 glk

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:23 AM

To me the misunderstanding is that it is not just the lower body that starts the downswing but both upper and lower body centers moving laterally (yes, with a little bit of rotation).    Hard to do and really hard to do without a good backswing pivot.

I love the stills on this guys showing a good top position and the transition move of the body by arms parallel (with a nice, quiet trail leg) - followed by the full swing instagram.     This to me is the downhill action.
https://www.instagra.../p/Bl5X1XaFjDq/

https://www.instagra.../p/Bnye0bXl7nO/

Edited by glk, 04 January 2019 - 08:23 PM.


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#85 Atrayn

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 11:25 AM

View Postclp34vmp, on 04 January 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.

Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.

One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.

I had this problem for a while and I couldn't get the arms where I wanted to see them. My swing was a flip w/EE all day. It was a result of an earlier problem and one I could only fix by thinking of what Monte advocates at times...."lead with the right elbow"

If I changed my intent to "lead with the right elbow" I found that it forced me to stay in my tilt longer because if I didn't I'd either miss the ball or lift and extend the hips toward the ball. Start with small swings. Having the intent to get the right elbow forced my hips more open automatically because the body senses that the elbow will crash into the right side and everything moves out of the way to make room.

It may work for you...

Video the small swings with this intent and verify your shoulders and hips open like you expect. Keep elongating the swing until you lose the position. Reset and start small again. It won't take hold overnight but keep working smaller swings until you achieve what you are looking for.

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#86 dj*

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Posted 04 January 2019 - 01:04 PM

View PostTexasTurf, on 03 January 2019 - 10:12 PM, said:

View PostTanner25, on 03 January 2019 - 06:29 PM, said:

View Postelthrill, on 03 January 2019 - 11:08 AM, said:

why are you all overcomplicating this? Gary player said it!  For most people, its simply easier to think about turning the center of your chest hard from the top of the swing.  Turn turn turn.  guess what? unless you intentionally TRY to freeze your lower body, it will be impossible to turn your chest through the ball without first moving your hips!  your feet, knees, and hips will lead the way. you dont have to think about it.  the interesting thing is people think of this as a lower body driven swing, but 100% of the focus is on the chest.  i never think of my legs.

I turn into my backswing, get to the top, and my thought is to leave my hands at the top of the swing and just turn my chest aggressively and fast through to the finish.  this allows the hips to open and creates a powerful shallowing action.  there is no thought to my arms at all.  its absolutely the simplest, easiest way to get the proper sequence.  i credit Gankas for popularizing this method of teaching.  it is simple and it works.  the key is to make sure you have ZERO tension in your arms and wrists.  this is what allows the clubhead to shallow and drop to the inside.   if you have any tension and yank on that club while turning aggressively you will be steep and dead.

Sounds good do you have a matching backswing thought :-)

Ask and you shall receive. Start the video at 12:09, really good stuff starts at 14:45 (as far as GP's backswing thought/theory). Seems like a pretty simple idea compared to most.



Hogan too, as told by a playing partner of his.



26

#87 Ghostwedge

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 12:14 AM

Thatʻs Jackie Burke Jr in that video with Elk. Google/youtube him up in his prime, he was right there with Hogan,Nelson and Snead.
Great looking golf swing.

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#88 dap

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 07:43 AM

View Postclp34vmp, on 04 January 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.

Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.

One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.
What you're describing is the ability to disassociate the hips from the upper torso and how much you can disassociate given your flexibility. It's all very well to try and get the hips as open as possible but if you can't physically disassociate them from your upper torso enough you are going to be coming over the top all day long.

The average guy who doesn't have the flexibility and athleticism of someone like Cameron Champ would be better off served not to get the hips too open because it will cause all sorts of issues in your upper torso. You can still play great golf with squarish hips at impact. Kevin Stadler is probably a good model for the player with average flexibility actually.




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#89 ALPHA MAN

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 12:17 PM

Most average Joe's don't have Stadler's talent, plus he's got a face and path that lends itself to squarish hips at impact if he tried to open his hips "too" much he would be a salesman.  Most people just don't have the mechanics correct to have" open hips" near/at impact regardless of flexibility.

Edited by ALPHA MAN, 05 January 2019 - 12:23 PM.


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#90 Hilts1969

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Posted 05 January 2019 - 05:00 PM

View Postdap, on 05 January 2019 - 07:43 AM, said:

View Postclp34vmp, on 04 January 2019 - 10:57 AM, said:

Reading through this post makes me feel vaguely sick to my stomach, mostly because it gets at the heart of my most stubborn swing flaw, one I can't seem to correct no matter how hard I try.

Over the past couple of years, I've used video to help identify my swing issues and have had some success through work at the range to correct or at least improve some of these. I'm maintaining hip depth and spine angle better, and my plane is, if not ideal, at least less over-the-top than it was. When I look at my current swing in slo-mo, however, I'm still struck by a couple of persistent issues that I have not found a way to correct.

One is that my arms are still too far away from my body on the downswing as they move towards impact, and the second is that my hips at impact have only rotated to barely past where they were at address. I've tried as hard as I can to find some type of swing thought or a trigger that I can use to start the downswing and improve hip rotation, but nothing is working for me, at least not yet. No matter what improvements I make on my swing, I can't get past the feel that my downswing is just one full-body lurch toward the ball. I'd like to feel like my lower body/hip rotation is leading the downswing and then the shoulders/upper body trail behind. That's what it looks like to me when I watch a slo-mo video of someone with a good golf swing - I just can't figure out how to get myself to do it.
What you're describing is the ability to disassociate the hips from the upper torso and how much you can disassociate given your flexibility. It's all very well to try and get the hips as open as possible but if you can't physically disassociate them from your upper torso enough you are going to be coming over the top all day long.

The average guy who doesn't have the flexibility and athleticism of someone like Cameron Champ would be better off served not to get the hips too open because it will cause all sorts of issues in your upper torso. You can still play great golf with squarish hips at impact. Kevin Stadler is probably a good model for the player with average flexibility actually.





Good video that, post the exact same swing by a member and the list of faults would be endless.


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