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Lower body starts downswing: How To Feel This


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#31 Frozen Divots

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 08:35 AM

Don’t look for feels. If you know what you want the club to do then it’s reactive. The muscle action is more ballistic and feel goes out the window.

If I throw a ball at you and you duck out of the way, did you need a feel for that?
And if this happens and I asked you to describe your feel, what would you say?

If your mind is focused on a feel then it’s being misdirected.


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#32 oz dee cee

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 08:56 AM

 Tanner25, on 01 November 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

 oz dee cee, on 01 November 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

Seeing that youre trying different methods try this odd but effective one... on your backswing, feel like your right foot is screwing into the ground clockwise. At transition and downswing CONTINUE the clockwise screwing.

From SEVAM1 - old school. Can work a treat.

And blow out a rear knee!

Nah, you’re doing it wrong! 😆

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#33 andrue

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 11:25 AM

I was trying a few things out at the range and have discovered that there's another way I can start the downswing that produces the same result. Instead of pulling my lead hip toward the target I return my trailing elbow to my side. Even though this is a very different feel it produces pretty much the same result, with an increase in secondary tilt. As a bonus it reduces my tendency to fade (which makes sense). I'm going to have to investigate this further because it feels like a simpler swing - instead of thinking "hip, elbow, turn" I can now just think "elbow, turn". The hip seems to take care of itself.

The only negative result was that I was hitting wedges very badly at first. But when I started concentrating on getting down to the ball I was good there as well.

Edited by andrue, 02 November 2018 - 11:27 AM.

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#34 dlanerie

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 11:39 AM

Best method imo is to let your lower body react to the intent of your arm swing.

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#35 moehogan

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 12:10 PM

First, understand how the club needs to move ... then figure out what you need to do to make it happen.

f0a4a6b7c83974798e0a8c54d9c74694_zpsfbd55431.jpg


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#36 Pleasedwith3putts

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 12:26 PM

 Frozen Divots, on 02 November 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

If your mind is focused on a feel then it's being misdirected.

I get the point you are making but the fact that the mind might be focussing on a feel may not be a bad thing in itself.

"The Inner Game of Golf" is 200+ pages about how to create the optimum circumstances for you to swing the club in. Most of the time it is the fear of failure that gets in the way and so anything that distracts the brain from negative thoughts can actually be helpful, it's just a case of finding something that distracts the mind that is not a negative thought.

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#37 Frozen Divots

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 12:52 PM

If you have an intent, everything physical after that can be reactive.

The photo MoeHogan showed is very close to my personal intent. I see the whole path and club action and after that it’s all reactive.

What does a reaction feel like? Very different process.

Edited by Frozen Divots, 02 November 2018 - 12:53 PM.


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#38 chiva

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 01:44 PM

 dlanerie, on 02 November 2018 - 11:39 AM, said:

Best method imo is to let your lower body react to the intent of your arm swing.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This.

That Justin Rose rehearsal is also a main thought of mine.
OB and water hazards you flunkies

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#39 ebrasmus21

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.
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#40 Z1ggy16

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 01:54 PM

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

This! Also, Monte advises most if not all of us to let the front heel rise. If you do this... first thought could also be to "slam" this front heel down. I think it naturally will help lower your hips, too.

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#41 ebrasmus21

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 02:01 PM

 Z1ggy16, on 02 November 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

This! Also, Monte advises most if not all of us to let the front heel rise. If you do this... first thought could also be to "slam" this front heel down. I think it naturally will help lower your hips, too.

Monte tried several different ques with me but belt buckle down worked the best to get me to: shift pressure, stay in left side bend a touch longer and regain some flexion in my hips.  All of those things were/are going on without thinking anything at all about the clubhead or my hands.  Worked for me at least.
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#42 chiva

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 05:34 PM

Monte's zipper away video!


https://www.youtube....h?v=NXoW93m2HcY
OB and water hazards you flunkies

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#43 juliette91

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:36 AM

 Frozen Divots, on 02 November 2018 - 08:35 AM, said:

Don't look for feels. If you know what you want the club to do then it's reactive. The muscle action is more ballistic and feel goes out the window.

If I throw a ball at you and you duck out of the way, did you need a feel for that?
And if this happens and I asked you to describe your feel, what would you say?

If your mind is focused on a feel then it's being misdirected.

This sounds right for the downswing where the length of time it takes for your brain to tell a body part to do something is longer than the downswing itself, but we're talking about just prior to the transition here--or the transition depending how you view it.  Your answer kind of begs the question because if it was just happening without thinking, kind of "just do it" I wouldn't have posted the original one in the first place.  "Just do it" worked great for Nike but for golfers struggling to get their lower body involved--barking the command from your brain doesn't work.  Glad it works for you and you brought it up.  Again, many ideas here and yours might perfectly suit someone viewing this thread.

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#44 juliette91

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:40 AM

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

Well, belt buckle down might be the same as many are saying here.  I said turn your chest, works for me.  Some say turn your lead knee toward the target.  Others say other things but the belt buckle follows either or most of those body sensations you can feel--or some can feel.  Belt buckle down feels like a result of the other suggestions rather than a way to feel the lower body?  Anyway, the thigh bone is connected to the leg bone and many of these suggestions get the lower body turning properly it seems.

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#45 Frozen Divots

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 08:21 AM

When you understand what to do you won’t think about it any longer. Like walking.

The problem is the initial ‘what to do’.

If you base that on a feel , it a much longer road.

The ‘right move feels like this’ doesn’t work. Feels go too far or not far enough.
The initial ‘what to do’ is more geometry than a feel.

The feel of a body movement will often entangle the club path.



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#46 ebrasmus21

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 08:42 AM

 juliette91, on 03 November 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

Well, belt buckle down might be the same as many are saying here.  I said turn your chest, works for me.  Some say turn your lead knee toward the target.  Others say other things but the belt buckle follows either or most of those body sensations you can feel--or some can feel.  Belt buckle down feels like a result of the other suggestions rather than a way to feel the lower body?  Anyway, the thigh bone is connected to the leg bone and many of these suggestions get the lower body turning properly it seems.

Maybe it won’t work for you, idk.  If you finish your backswing and literally the next move you make is to squat down such that you feel the belt buckle go down then I’d say you’re starting the downswing with your lower body.  Sounds like you’re looking for a different feeling.
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#47 juliette91

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:06 PM

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

When you understand what to do you won't think about it any longer. Like walking.

The problem is the initial 'what to do'.

If you base that on a feel , it a much longer road.

The 'right move feels like this' doesn't work. Feels go too far or not far enough.
The initial 'what to do' is more geometry than a feel.

The feel of a body movement will often entangle the club path.

Yes I can see how doing anything to excess can entangle any part of the swing.  What makes the game endlessly interesting is that some players at the highest level are all about "feel" and call themselves that.  And that's not limited to their play around the green or within 70 yards, either.  If you don't believe that feel plays a part then it doesn't.  If you don't believe geometry plays a part then it doesn't.  Not that you can "believe" yourself into a great swing, but the confidence and so many other factors that go in to making consistent strikes springs from somewhere---confidence in the feel you get at some point in your swing or confidence in not feeling anything but keeping your geometry (which is feeling something) or not thinking about anything and just target target target and let it all happen.  None is correct, all are useful.

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#48 Zitlow

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:27 PM

The club is an extension of your arms, shoulders and upper body not your pelvis and legs. The pelvis and legs react to the upper body right side pushing and left side pulling in a tight circle.

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#49 Frozen Divots

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM

Feel is the wrong word, if a Tour Pro uses it or not.

What does a specific pelvic move feel like? It ‘feels’ like a pelvic move. There is no magical, distinctive feel that I or anyone can translate to you to help you move your body.

If you stumble onto a swing based on interpreting feels, you won the lottery. If you learned a swing from a guy on tour describing his feel, you won two lotteries.

You use motions that are not extra sensory, so feel does nothing but screw up people.

Describe one move in another sport that is built around a feel. Feel is a secondary, muddled up translation.






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#50 TTGolf77

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

When you understand what to do you won’t think about it any longer. Like walking.

The problem is the initial ‘what to do’.

If you base that on a feel , it a much longer road.

The ‘right move feels like this’ doesn’t work. Feels go too far or not far enough.
The initial ‘what to do’ is more geometry than a feel.

The feel of a body movement will often entangle the club path.

So what is it that you do?


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#51 glk

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 01:04 PM

 TTGolf77, on 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 08:21 AM, said:

When you understand what to do you won’t think about it any longer. Like walking.

The problem is the initial ‘what to do’.

If you base that on a feel , it a much longer road.

The ‘right move feels like this’ doesn’t work. Feels go too far or not far enough.
The initial ‘what to do’ is more geometry than a feel.

The feel of a body movement will often entangle the club path.

So what is it that you do?
Learn good mechanics and associate your feel with it versus searching for good mechanics by chasing feels.

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#52 Scottbox

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 02:04 PM

Wow, lots of ways to do it, and they're all correct. This way involves starting with the feet, and you can do great half shots with it to learn:

https://www.instagra.../p/Boz0uAiB5bM/

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#53 sjt4718

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 02:10 PM

 andrue, on 02 November 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

I was trying a few things out at the range and have discovered that there's another way I can start the downswing that produces the same result. Instead of pulling my lead hip toward the target I return my trailing elbow to my side. Even though this is a very different feel it produces pretty much the same result, with an increase in secondary tilt. As a bonus it reduces my tendency to fade (which makes sense). I'm going to have to investigate this further because it feels like a simpler swing - instead of thinking "hip, elbow, turn" I can now just think "elbow, turn". The hip seems to take care of itself.

The only negative result was that I was hitting wedges very badly at first. But when I started concentrating on getting down to the ball I was good there as well.
I really like this feel as well. It seems that this prevents my over the top move. I don't think I can swing OTT if my right elbow stays under and to the right hip. I need to check it on video to see if this stops my casting as well. Ott,casting,flipping on occasion and sliding to get shaft lean all seem to be plaguing me but remarkably I pull some compressed and crisp iron shots off at times.

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#54 juliette91

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 04:30 PM

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Feel is the wrong word, if a Tour Pro uses it or not.

What does a specific pelvic move feel like? It 'feels' like a pelvic move. There is no magical, distinctive feel that I or anyone can translate to you to help you move your body.

If you stumble onto a swing based on interpreting feels, you won the lottery. If you learned a swing from a guy on tour describing his feel, you won two lotteries.

You use motions that are not extra sensory, so feel does nothing but screw up people.

Describe one move in another sport that is built around a feel. Feel is a secondary, muddled up translation.

I guess when I'm using the word "feel" I'm talking about how to get my brain to tell a body part to move in a certain direction at a certain time.  Some of the instruction I've received along the way for using my lower body targets moving parts of my body at the transition.  Most of the time I could not get my brain to tell that body part to do what was required-at the time it was supposed to happen.  I've been calling that "feel".  

That's what I intended from the original post, that I'd figured out how to get a kinesthetic "feel" for having a certain body part move at a certain time and wanted to hear from others what works for them.  

So the idea of moving my lead leg toward the target, a volitional move just before the transition completes, was not something I ever could "feel" happening.  I'd had instruction that said to push down on my front heel, and I could never feel that happening either.  Some have suggested other physical body moves that help them get their lower torso initiating the downswing---but I could never feel those either.

For me I can feel my shoulders turning and can "order" them to start turning toward the target via my brain.  That's what I'm calling "feel"ing a body part moving.  If you're talking about that too then I disagree with you.  If you're not talking about that I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about except the way that one can "feel" how hard to swing the putter on a 70 foot putt.

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#55 Frozen Divots

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 04:48 PM

You’ll never ‘feel’ something you initiate, at least enough to make that your go to ‘thought’.

You’ll struggle forever. The club needs to be at certain points in space. If it doesn’t happen, your body entangled it.

The body conforms more than anything.

Edited by Frozen Divots, 03 November 2018 - 04:49 PM.


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#56 Nard_S

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 05:48 PM

 juliette91, on 03 November 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Feel is the wrong word, if a Tour Pro uses it or not.

What does a specific pelvic move feel like? It 'feels' like a pelvic move. There is no magical, distinctive feel that I or anyone can translate to you to help you move your body.

If you stumble onto a swing based on interpreting feels, you won the lottery. If you learned a swing from a guy on tour describing his feel, you won two lotteries.

You use motions that are not extra sensory, so feel does nothing but screw up people.

Describe one move in another sport that is built around a feel. Feel is a secondary, muddled up translation.

I guess when I'm using the word "feel" I'm talking about how to get my brain to tell a body part to move in a certain direction at a certain time.  Some of the instruction I've received along the way for using my lower body targets moving parts of my body at the transition.  Most of the time I could not get my brain to tell that body part to do what was required-at the time it was supposed to happen.  I've been calling that "feel".  

That's what I intended from the original post, that I'd figured out how to get a kinesthetic "feel" for having a certain body part move at a certain time and wanted to hear from others what works for them.  

So the idea of moving my lead leg toward the target, a volitional move just before the transition completes, was not something I ever could "feel" happening.  I'd had instruction that said to push down on my front heel, and I could never feel that happening either.  Some have suggested other physical body moves that help them get their lower torso initiating the downswing---but I could never feel those either.

For me I can feel my shoulders turning and can "order" them to start turning toward the target via my brain.  That's what I'm calling "feel"ing a body part moving.  If you're talking about that too then I disagree with you.  If you're not talking about that I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about except the way that one can "feel" how hard to swing the putter on a 70 foot putt.

I might be off on this but it sounds like your lacking a greater body awareness, maybe too arm/hand and shoulder centric. Not the first to do that but sounds like you need to tune in to other parts of body more and that does take reps and practice. Real easy in golf to hyper focus on one or two aspects of the swing and neglect the rest.

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#57 juliette91

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 07:46 PM

 Nard_S, on 03 November 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

 juliette91, on 03 November 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Feel is the wrong word, if a Tour Pro uses it or not.

What does a specific pelvic move feel like? It 'feels' like a pelvic move. There is no magical, distinctive feel that I or anyone can translate to you to help you move your body.

If you stumble onto a swing based on interpreting feels, you won the lottery. If you learned a swing from a guy on tour describing his feel, you won two lotteries.

You use motions that are not extra sensory, so feel does nothing but screw up people.

Describe one move in another sport that is built around a feel. Feel is a secondary, muddled up translation.

I guess when I'm using the word "feel" I'm talking about how to get my brain to tell a body part to move in a certain direction at a certain time.  Some of the instruction I've received along the way for using my lower body targets moving parts of my body at the transition.  Most of the time I could not get my brain to tell that body part to do what was required-at the time it was supposed to happen.  I've been calling that "feel".  

That's what I intended from the original post, that I'd figured out how to get a kinesthetic "feel" for having a certain body part move at a certain time and wanted to hear from others what works for them.  

So the idea of moving my lead leg toward the target, a volitional move just before the transition completes, was not something I ever could "feel" happening.  I'd had instruction that said to push down on my front heel, and I could never feel that happening either.  Some have suggested other physical body moves that help them get their lower torso initiating the downswing---but I could never feel those either.

For me I can feel my shoulders turning and can "order" them to start turning toward the target via my brain.  That's what I'm calling "feel"ing a body part moving.  If you're talking about that too then I disagree with you.  If you're not talking about that I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about except the way that one can "feel" how hard to swing the putter on a 70 foot putt.

I might be off on this but it sounds like your lacking a greater body awareness, maybe too arm/hand and shoulder centric. Not the first to do that but sounds like you need to tune in to other parts of body more and that does take reps and practice. Real easy in golf to hyper focus on one or two aspects of the swing and neglect the rest.

Thanks. No doubt I've got plenty of problems.

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#58 Nard_S

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 09:31 PM

 juliette91, on 03 November 2018 - 07:46 PM, said:

 Nard_S, on 03 November 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

 juliette91, on 03 November 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

 Frozen Divots, on 03 November 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Feel is the wrong word, if a Tour Pro uses it or not.

What does a specific pelvic move feel like? It 'feels' like a pelvic move. There is no magical, distinctive feel that I or anyone can translate to you to help you move your body.

If you stumble onto a swing based on interpreting feels, you won the lottery. If you learned a swing from a guy on tour describing his feel, you won two lotteries.

You use motions that are not extra sensory, so feel does nothing but screw up people.

Describe one move in another sport that is built around a feel. Feel is a secondary, muddled up translation.

I guess when I'm using the word "feel" I'm talking about how to get my brain to tell a body part to move in a certain direction at a certain time.  Some of the instruction I've received along the way for using my lower body targets moving parts of my body at the transition.  Most of the time I could not get my brain to tell that body part to do what was required-at the time it was supposed to happen.  I've been calling that "feel".  

That's what I intended from the original post, that I'd figured out how to get a kinesthetic "feel" for having a certain body part move at a certain time and wanted to hear from others what works for them.  

So the idea of moving my lead leg toward the target, a volitional move just before the transition completes, was not something I ever could "feel" happening.  I'd had instruction that said to push down on my front heel, and I could never feel that happening either.  Some have suggested other physical body moves that help them get their lower torso initiating the downswing---but I could never feel those either.

For me I can feel my shoulders turning and can "order" them to start turning toward the target via my brain.  That's what I'm calling "feel"ing a body part moving.  If you're talking about that too then I disagree with you.  If you're not talking about that I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about except the way that one can "feel" how hard to swing the putter on a 70 foot putt.

I might be off on this but it sounds like your lacking a greater body awareness, maybe too arm/hand and shoulder centric. Not the first to do that but sounds like you need to tune in to other parts of body more and that does take reps and practice. Real easy in golf to hyper focus on one or two aspects of the swing and neglect the rest.

Thanks. No doubt I've got plenty of problems.

Hah, we all do.

28

#59 joshsparham

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 08:39 AM

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 02:01 PM, said:

 Z1ggy16, on 02 November 2018 - 01:54 PM, said:

 ebrasmus21, on 02 November 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

OP - you could try what Monte often teaches.  Finish your backswing and then first move is "belt-buckle down" to initiate the downswing.

This! Also, Monte advises most if not all of us to let the front heel rise. If you do this... first thought could also be to "slam" this front heel down. I think it naturally will help lower your hips, too.

Monte tried several different ques with me but belt buckle down worked the best to get me to: shift pressure, stay in left side bend a touch longer and regain some flexion in my hips.  All of those things were/are going on without thinking anything at all about the clubhead or my hands.  Worked for me at least.

Does Monte have a video or anything on Instagram that goes into this "belt buckle" down move?  I'm guess its kind of like push the butt back feeling

29

#60 moehogan

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 09:16 AM

To start the DS, aim the hips to left field while aiming the shoulders to right field.

89EEAAB6-B6E0-4AD1-87F2-8E9DA38391B2.jpeg


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