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Lower body starts downswing: How To Feel This


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#1 juliette91

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 12:58 AM

Mostly I’ve flunked start of downswing 101.  Could never get my brain to te my hips to start turning toward the target.  But after watching a Gary Player lesson with Martin Hall where Gary passionately urged viewers to turn their chest to the target-to start the downswing ( which turns the hips), I tried it.

Turns out I can “tell” my chest to turn toward the target at the transition, and my hips follow in sync.

So all this instruction about turning hips to the target to initiate the downswing can be accomplished in other ways that trigger the hips to turn


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#2 juliette91

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 01:00 AM

Typo sorry no edit feature—“Could never get my brain to tell...”

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#3 hack2489

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 01:08 AM

 juliette91, on 29 October 2018 - 12:58 AM, said:


... to turn their chest to the target-to start the downswing ( which turns the hips)...


That's one way... But, comes with the possibility of of then rotating or rolling the shoulders too much or too soon and thus not starting with hips.

After failed attempts of turning hips 'back' (aka left hip back) and or starting with driving right hip to start the forward swing (aka downswing) by a now new swing thought of "belt buckle to left knee" ... So both a forward and rotation movement.

The left hip back had me spinning out too much with no enough, or no, forward movement.

The right hip drive had me pushing too far forward and not enough rotation.

The belt buckle to left knee is the 'baby bear' ah just right swing thought for me.

Subject to change without notice!

Edited by hack2489, 29 October 2018 - 01:09 AM.


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#4 andrue

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 03:42 AM

What seems to work for me is a sense of pulling my right buttock toward the target while consciously holding my head back. That movement creates a feeling of pulling along my left side. It also tends to cause my right elbow to come back to my hip. To me it feels like a disjointed, lateral move (ie; shift, then swing) but other people says there's a definite rotational aspect to it and the whole thing looks quite smooth.

My problem is that I tend to forget to do it or (as yesterday for some reason) feel kind of afraid to. It's stupid - when I do that move I hit great shots but my brain still seems to think of it as a bit alien and risky. I also tend to neglect to fully turn my shoulders going back when I get like that.

It's quite frustrating. The result of both those mistakes is not pretty and unfortunately they dent my confidence and make it even less likely I'll attempt them :(
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#5 wmblake2000

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 06:30 AM

Oh wow, if the right people respond you’re going to hear everything from A to Z!

I struggle with this too. A lot of what I once believed about this whole sequencing wasn’t valid. It is easy for me in the effort to start with my hips to way out of sequence, drop r shoulder, etc.

What seems to work best for me is a focus on how to get right side thru- hands, arms, shoulder so that I get speed into the head thru impact.

This requires me to get the left side out of the way. But a little like Player suggests, I focus more on shoulder than hips. I can’t pay attention to everything so I seems to hit it better if I stay focused shoulders, arms, hands and let the lower body react.

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#6 Nard_S

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 06:41 AM

Rotate lead knee towards target.

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#7 mstram

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 06:56 AM

I like Nicklaus's  "roll the ankles",  both for backswing and downswing

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#8 juliette91

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 12:48 PM

Please keep ‘em coming.  One of these suggestions is bound to help some viewers.

I tried like heck to get my lead knee to turn toward the target line but never could feel it to do it.  I know the poster who said this one liner as though his posting ended the conversation might not believe something which sounds so easy to do could ever not be so.

That’s why I started this thread—because what works for one doesn’t at all work for another.

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#9 Nard_S

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 12:58 PM

 juliette91, on 29 October 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

Please keep 'em coming.  One of these suggestions is bound to help some viewers.

I tried like heck to get my lead knee to turn toward the target line but never could feel it to do it.  I know the poster who said this one liner as though his posting ended the conversation might not believe something which sounds so easy to do could ever not be so.

That's why I started this thread—because what works for one doesn't at all work for another.

Hah, I guess that's me. If you cannot feel or execute that it's probably because your body is not in the position to do so. So you have to drill down and see why that is. For me it was because I had a false rotation, false coil. Good coil allows easy re-pivot, a falling into ball by flexion and rotation of lead knee.

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#10 me05501

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 01:16 PM

I think we each learn to execute things in different ways.

Drawing from lessons I've taken to improve my golf, voice, work life, etc., I know I do far better with "do this" instructions than with "don't do that" instructions. I guess I don't like being told what not to do. :D

Having learned this about myself, I get more from each lesson. If an instructor says, "you're doing _____, don't do that" I'll ask them to give me an opposite/positive image to use instead. It's easier for me to remember and execute those.

Anyhow...some golfers can think "turn the X to the Y" and others can think "don't let the Y get past the X." Either can be effective for different people.


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#11 Zitlow

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 01:25 PM

The shaft is swinging on a plane from the ball thru the base of the neck, the club head is swinging on a circle around the base of your neck. The club head isn't swinging on a circle around your belly button.

Jamie Sadlowski said his legs are stabilizers in his swing.

Edited by Zitlow, 29 October 2018 - 01:28 PM.


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#12 cj4birdie

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 02:16 PM

I like to feel a push off the right heel/instep as the first move of the re-coil into the ball...that seems to be the best way for me to get my right hip through the shot NEAR simultaneous to the right arm "throwing" sidearm/underhanded WITHOUT me thinking about anything beyond transferring weight and letting the club follow to my ultimate goal, a straight, balanced "Stenson/Sorenstam" finish.  I've never hit a truly horrid shot where I've gotten to that finish position, comfortable to evaluate the shot, from even a reasonable backswing.  Jim Colbert used to say that he tried to "stand up and face the target as soon as I can" at the completion of the backswing.  George Knudson was another guy who strove to hit that "evaluation" position as a major downswing thought.  It all happens too fast to "create" positions w/ the club in free motion coming into the ball.

Agree though, there are a million "feels" to accomplish what you're looking for, and what works for me won't necessarily work for others.

Edited by cj4birdie, 29 October 2018 - 02:21 PM.


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#13 Nickc

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 02:39 PM

The right knee & hence pushing off the right instep helped me - BUT as with anything thinking about it too much can and did lead to problems. Getting the belt buckle to rotate to the goal of facing the  target was also useful.
But as an olden I have found that having as few thoughts as possible and simply swinging to the right and through to the left works best - though the trigger is thinking about the feet - left for the backswing and right for the downswing and follow through (don't analyse or really think about it but suppose it is a push off from left for backswing - heel lifts slightly - and push off from right for down swing).The ground up rotation just naturally then happens.
Try it with your eyes closed or just looking straight ahead and not at the ball - you may miss at first - but will free your body to just do its stuff.

Edited by Nickc, 29 October 2018 - 02:43 PM.


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#14 Barfolomew

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Posted 29 October 2018 - 02:58 PM

Dont lean on a trigger to help fire hips JUST fire the hips!!!

My hips are on auto pilot no thought needed but Im an ex college javelin chucker lol....

How bout trying to really smash hard with driver cause I cant see anyone doing that without the hips going first....then once you got the feeling dial it back as far as needed to find fairway....ijs
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#15 hack2489

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 02:55 PM

 me05501, on 29 October 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

I think we each learn to execute things in different ways.

Drawing from lessons I've taken to improve my golf, voice, work life, etc., I know I do far better with "do this" instructions than with "don't do that" instructions. I guess I don't like being told what not to do. :D

Having learned this about myself, I get more from each lesson. If an instructor says, "you're doing _____, don't do that" I'll ask them to give me an opposite/positive image to use instead. It's easier for me to remember and execute those.

Anyhow...some golfers can think "turn the X to the Y" and others can think "don't let the Y get past the X." Either can be effective for different people.

Do not think of a pink elephant.

So what did you do?

It's got nothing do to with being told what not to do, it's how our brains work regwrding the focus subject of the thought.

If you're thinking don't hit it fat, don't hit it left ... Chances are you will because that's what you're thought is focused on...

Same for any swing thought. Exactly as you've discovered. It needs to be a positive focus that overcomes the error you are making.

It may take several tries at different ones before it clicks too, which is the core of this thread...

As I posted, thinking about pushing my left hip back didn't work, not right hip firwsrd, but belt buckle to knee did, does, for me ... ATM.

Regardless of what we try, test, etc it needs to be a positive thought focus.

Do not forget the milk!

So what usually happens? 🤔



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#16 glk

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 04:17 PM

Thinking to start the transition with just the lower body, i.e. hips, and then with a turning movement  is a problematic concept.   Both the upper and lower body centers shift laterally with a small amount of rotation up until lead arm parallel at which point rotation takes over.

Sneds demonstrates  the move
http://www.instagram...tic_motion_golf

Rory too
http://www.instagram...tic_motion_golf

And last but not least Rose who makes it clear about keeping that lead side low in transition
http://www.instagram...tic_motion_golf

Edited by glk, 30 October 2018 - 04:17 PM.


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#17 Rosco1216

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 04:46 PM

Unless it just comes natural to you, it is very difficult to consciously tell yourself to simply “rotate your hips” and actually do it because youre in the process of a dynamic motion without an opposing force to rotate against.

There are tons of cues people have tried to get themselves to rotate hips better. One thing most people don’t realize is that there is something in their set up or stance that actually restricts hip turn, such as a wide stance.

I always struggled with not enough hip clearing and too much lateral shift toward the target.  The best cue that worked for me was to maintain a little more weight on the front door at the top of the backswing and then from their to simply move my lead @ss cheek back(from the ball) and upward simultaneously. It helps me get my hips cleared better, restricts lateral shift towards target and also got me “posted” into my lead side much better at impact.

Edited by Rosco1216, 30 October 2018 - 04:49 PM.

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#18 moehogan

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 04:47 PM

When I was a youngster, a wise old timer once barked at me “Get your g’damn nose in the dirt!”.

Translation: Regain hip flexion in transition

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#19 getitdaily

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 05:49 PM

On the backswing, take the lead foot and step back to the trail foot, tap the lead foot and then step forward with the lead foot, plant it, and swing.

It's called the step back drill, I think. If you cant feel the hips lead with that drill then nothing will help.

Great for tempo too.

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#20 Timbo929

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 06:01 PM

https://www.instagra...montescheinblum

this.


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#21 Ray Jackson

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 08:45 PM

View Postmstram, on 29 October 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:

I like Nicklaus's  "roll the ankles",  both for backswing and downswing

This one has caused issues for me as the ankles rolling towards the target has caused my lower body to slide and my hips to get too parallel to the ground rather than pointing down and so then I get stuck behind. The better one I am going to try is belt buckle to the ground and then keep the left hip turning behind me. Hopefully that keeps arms in front of me and not behind.

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#22 juliette91

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 10:35 PM

View Postcj4birdie, on 29 October 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

I like to feel a push off the right heel/instep as the first move of the re-coil into the ball...that seems to be the best way for me to get my right hip through the shot NEAR simultaneous to the right arm "throwing" sidearm/underhanded WITHOUT me thinking about anything beyond transferring weight and letting the club follow to my ultimate goal, a straight, balanced "Stenson/Sorenstam" finish.  I've never hit a truly horrid shot where I've gotten to that finish position, comfortable to evaluate the shot, from even a reasonable backswing.  Jim Colbert used to say that he tried to "stand up and face the target as soon as I can" at the completion of the backswing.  George Knudson was another guy who strove to hit that "evaluation" position as a major downswing thought.  It all happens too fast to "create" positions w/ the club in free motion coming into the ball.

Agree though, there are a million "feels" to accomplish what you're looking for, and what works for me won't necessarily work for others.

This works for me too as I've adopted a Stenson like takeaway to eliminate actually moving off the ball after I begin the backswing (this way it's mostly done before I take the club back)
but with the Stenson takeaway comes pressure on the rear foot/heel and that pressure is the coil for the re-coil of pushing off of it.

View Postgetitdaily, on 30 October 2018 - 05:49 PM, said:

On the backswing, take the lead foot and step back to the trail foot, tap the lead foot and then step forward with the lead foot, plant it, and swing.

It's called the step back drill, I think. If you cant feel the hips lead with that drill then nothing will help.

Great for tempo too.

Thanks, really great drill!

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#23 juliette91

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 10:36 PM

View PostRay Jackson, on 30 October 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

View Postmstram, on 29 October 2018 - 06:56 AM, said:

I like Nicklaus's  "roll the ankles",  both for backswing and downswing

This one has caused issues for me as the ankles rolling towards the target has caused my lower body to slide and my hips to get too parallel to the ground rather than pointing down and so then I get stuck behind. The better one I am going to try is belt buckle to the ground and then keep the left hip turning behind me. Hopefully that keeps arms in front of me and not behind.

"left hip" ?  sure you don't mean right hip?  Or are you LH?

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#24 Tanner25

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:54 AM

View PostBarfolomew, on 29 October 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

Dont lean on a trigger to help fire hips JUST fire the hips!!!

My hips are on auto pilot no thought needed but Im an ex college javelin chucker lol....

How bout trying to really smash hard with driver cause I cant see anyone doing that without the hips going first....then once you got the feeling dial it back as far as needed to find fairway....ijs

My smash with the driver swing will end up 225 way to the right, lol

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#25 smdykas

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 07:26 AM

View Postglk, on 30 October 2018 - 04:17 PM, said:

Thinking to start the transition with just the lower body, i.e. hips, and then with a turning movement  is a problematic concept.   Both the upper and lower body centers shift laterally with a small amount of rotation up until lead arm parallel at which point rotation takes over.

Sneds demonstrates  the move
http://www.instagram...tic_motion_golf

Rory too
http://www.instagram...tic_motion_golf

And last but not least Rose who makes it clear about keeping that lead side low in transition
http://www.instagram...tic_motion_golf

The JR video changed my game last month while trying it. I didn't realize my hips were spinning out and I had the club so far behind me I was stuck.


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#26 oz dee cee

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 07:49 AM

Seeing that youre trying different methods try this odd but effective one... on your backswing, feel like your right foot is screwing into the ground clockwise. At transition and downswing CONTINUE the clockwise screwing.

From SEVAM1 - old school. Can work a treat.

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#27 Pleasedwith3putts

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 08:04 AM

View Postmoehogan, on 30 October 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

When I was a youngster, a wise old timer once barked at me "Get your g'damn nose in the dirt!".

Translation: Regain hip flexion in transition

I like this move too. The problem with using the feel of you torso turning towards the target is it can easily result in casting.

If you look at the move Rose uses in his practice swing it is to feel you are moving your head down into the ball and pulling hard to the left.

It's very hard to cast if you retain spine angle and stay on top of the ball correctly at impact. The feeling of burying your nose in the dirt by the ball helps that and frankly if you don't clear your hips then this move will mean you literally have no room to swing the club into and are likely to shank everything , whereas a caster will create room by losing spine angle and standing up on the shot.

So my two thoughts would be to feel like you keep your head on top of the ball on the way down and that your head does not move towards the target until after impact.

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#28 golfstripe

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 12:05 PM

View PostPleasedwith3putts, on 01 November 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

View Postmoehogan, on 30 October 2018 - 04:47 PM, said:

When I was a youngster, a wise old timer once barked at me "Get your g'damn nose in the dirt!".

Translation: Regain hip flexion in transition

I like this move too. The problem with using the feel of you torso turning towards the target is it can easily result in casting.

If you look at the move Rose uses in his practice swing it is to feel you are moving your head down into the ball and pulling hard to the left.

It's very hard to cast if you retain spine angle and stay on top of the ball correctly at impact. The feeling of burying your nose in the dirt by the ball helps that and frankly if you don't clear your hips then this move will mean you literally have no room to swing the club into and are likely to shank everything , whereas a caster will create room by losing spine angle and standing up on the shot.

So my two thoughts would be to feel like you keep your head on top of the ball on the way down and that your head does not move towards the target until after impact.

Was taught this too, real powerful.  That feel for me is compressing-flexing something in the lower lead lumbar spine area in transition,   but not sure what muscle it is but it slows initial torso rotation just the right amount for me.

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#29 Tanner25

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 06:55 PM

View Postoz dee cee, on 01 November 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

Seeing that youre trying different methods try this odd but effective one... on your backswing, feel like your right foot is screwing into the ground clockwise. At transition and downswing CONTINUE the clockwise screwing.

From SEVAM1 - old school. Can work a treat.

And blow out a rear knee!

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#30 Millbrook

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Posted 02 November 2018 - 07:52 AM

As someone has already said move lead knee to over the lead foot.

For me it produces the move which was in Montes instagram message which Timbo posted. I see this as the Hogan move of returning the left buttock to the wall without the right buttock coming off the wall for a RH player.

All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

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