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Red shirting


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#61 raynorfan1

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.

Edited by raynorfan1, 08 November 2018 - 07:11 AM.


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#62 CTgolf

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:04 AM

Boys keep growing until 17 or 18 (some even older).  Physical size makes a big difference on the margin when shaving a stroke or two becomes difficult.  A child’s emotional and mental maturity can also improve dramatically in a year during that time period.  Yet recruiting at the highest level is wrapped up by sophomore or junior year at latest, when a “normal” high schooler will only be 15 or 16.  It seems like a real edge for those who can hold their child back.

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#63 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:18 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.

Or you're forced to carry 7 wedges because the 9i has 7i loft.  I agree with you completely.  I understand why parents want their kids to have every advantage.  But most refuse to acknowledge how "red-shirting" places other kids at a distinct disadvantage.  

My former neighbor was the star football player for the local high school a few years ago.  He is now the starting RB at Virginia Tech.  He graduated high school at 17 and became a starter at VT as a 17 year old freshman.  In talking to him, he credits having to "step-up" his game to keep up with the older kids he grew up competing against.  By the time he got to high school, that work ethic he was forced to adopt as a middle schooler propelled him beyond his classmates.  Regardless of the fact that many were nearly 2 years older then him.  His senior season in high school, while still only 16 for the majority of the football season, he rushed for 3,078 yards and scored 44 touchdowns.

Gladwell's book gets taken at face value far too frequently.  He suggests, to be great at something, one simply needs to devote 10,000 hours of practice to whatever they want to be great at.  In golf terms, standing on a range for 10,000 hours, blindly beating balls isn't going to make anyone a great golfer.  The practice needs to be detailed, precise and targeted.  Simply holding a kid back so they are older than their classmates isn't going to produce a college football player or PGA golfer.

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#64 CTgolf

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 09:22 AM

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.

Or you're forced to carry 7 wedges because the 9i has 7i loft.  I agree with you completely.  I understand why parents want their kids to have every advantage.  But most refuse to acknowledge how "red-shirting" places other kids at a distinct disadvantage.  

My former neighbor was the star football player for the local high school a few years ago.  He is now the starting RB at Virginia Tech.  He graduated high school at 17 and became a starter at VT as a 17 year old freshman.  In talking to him, he credits having to "step-up" his game to keep up with the older kids he grew up competing against.  By the time he got to high school, that work ethic he was forced to adopt as a middle schooler propelled him beyond his classmates.  Regardless of the fact that many were nearly 2 years older then him.  His senior season in high school, while still only 16 for the majority of the football season, he rushed for 3,078 yards and scored 44 touchdowns.

Gladwell's book gets taken at face value far too frequently.  He suggests, to be great at something, one simply needs to devote 10,000 hours of practice to whatever they want to be great at.  In golf terms, standing on a range for 10,000 hours, blindly beating balls isn't going to make anyone a great golfer.  The practice needs to be detailed, precise and targeted.  Simply holding a kid back so they are older than their classmates isn't going to produce a college football player or PGA golfer.

How big was your neighbor as a 17yo?

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#65 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:05 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.

Or you're forced to carry 7 wedges because the 9i has 7i loft.  I agree with you completely.  I understand why parents want their kids to have every advantage.  But most refuse to acknowledge how "red-shirting" places other kids at a distinct disadvantage.  

My former neighbor was the star football player for the local high school a few years ago.  He is now the starting RB at Virginia Tech.  He graduated high school at 17 and became a starter at VT as a 17 year old freshman.  In talking to him, he credits having to "step-up" his game to keep up with the older kids he grew up competing against.  By the time he got to high school, that work ethic he was forced to adopt as a middle schooler propelled him beyond his classmates.  Regardless of the fact that many were nearly 2 years older then him.  His senior season in high school, while still only 16 for the majority of the football season, he rushed for 3,078 yards and scored 44 touchdowns.

Gladwell's book gets taken at face value far too frequently.  He suggests, to be great at something, one simply needs to devote 10,000 hours of practice to whatever they want to be great at.  In golf terms, standing on a range for 10,000 hours, blindly beating balls isn't going to make anyone a great golfer.  The practice needs to be detailed, precise and targeted.  Simply holding a kid back so they are older than their classmates isn't going to produce a college football player or PGA golfer.

How big was your neighbor as a 17yo?

5'9" tall and maybe 180 pounds.

https://hokiesports....aspx?rp_id=8864


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#66 agatha

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:11 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.


Like Palmetto golfer, my son was September so that bday is actually in the normal area of trying to decide to start them or wait a year, they will either be oldest or youngest.  It is hardy a "redshirt" scenario.

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#67 CTgolf

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:26 AM

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.

Or you're forced to carry 7 wedges because the 9i has 7i loft.  I agree with you completely.  I understand why parents want their kids to have every advantage.  But most refuse to acknowledge how "red-shirting" places other kids at a distinct disadvantage.  

My former neighbor was the star football player for the local high school a few years ago.  He is now the starting RB at Virginia Tech.  He graduated high school at 17 and became a starter at VT as a 17 year old freshman.  In talking to him, he credits having to "step-up" his game to keep up with the older kids he grew up competing against.  By the time he got to high school, that work ethic he was forced to adopt as a middle schooler propelled him beyond his classmates.  Regardless of the fact that many were nearly 2 years older then him.  His senior season in high school, while still only 16 for the majority of the football season, he rushed for 3,078 yards and scored 44 touchdowns.

Gladwell's book gets taken at face value far too frequently.  He suggests, to be great at something, one simply needs to devote 10,000 hours of practice to whatever they want to be great at.  In golf terms, standing on a range for 10,000 hours, blindly beating balls isn't going to make anyone a great golfer.  The practice needs to be detailed, precise and targeted.  Simply holding a kid back so they are older than their classmates isn't going to produce a college football player or PGA golfer.

How big was your neighbor as a 17yo?

5'9" tall and maybe 180 pounds.

https://hokiesports....aspx?rp_id=8864

"Posted a 375-pound bench press and a 32-inch vertical jump in spring max testing"

I guess if you're an elite star then it doesn't matter.  Those guys are getting the opportunities whether they graduate on time, late, or early.  But for someone who is only merely "very very good" then it seems like having the extra year would help a lot.

I'm not advocating the ethics or morality behind it (my child is among the youngest in the grade).  It just seems obvious that it is an advantage and, if allowed by a state (i.e. legal) then more people should consider it.  Per this forum's estimates parents are already spending tens of thousands of dollars on junior golf per year to help their kids succeed - why not do the logical thing and hold them back to give them additional edge?

7

#68 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 10:50 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

"Posted a 375-pound bench press and a 32-inch vertical jump in spring max testing"

I guess if you're an elite star then it doesn't matter.  Those guys are getting the opportunities whether they graduate on time, late, or early.  But for someone who is only merely "very very good" then it seems like having the extra year would help a lot.

I'm not advocating the ethics or morality behind it (my child is among the youngest in the grade).  It just seems obvious that it is an advantage and, if allowed by a state (i.e. legal) then more people should consider it.  Per this forum's estimates parents are already spending tens of thousands of dollars on junior golf per year to help their kids succeed - why not do the logical thing and hold them back to give them additional edge?

As I said earlier, I understand why some parents "red-shirt."  It's not something I would consider.  My oldest daughter has a July birthday and is the second youngest student in her grade level for the entire school system.  She has the highest GPA within her grade level as well.  "Red-shirting" her wouldn't have made much sense.  But given her July birthday and being the 2nd youngest kid in her grade level, the practice of "red-shirting" seems to be overused.  I would have expected several students in an entire grade level to have birthdays between July and September.

Mr. Peoples weight lifting prowess is a direct result of being the youngest and often one of the smallest football players as a rising middle schooler.  He needed to get stronger as a middle school kid and did with the help of former NFL OL Mark Dixon.  Steven's high school football coach.  Edit to add; Steven set the 375 pound bench press mark in the spring of 2014.  Just after turning 18 in late September 2013.

Edited by Sixcat, 08 November 2018 - 10:53 AM.


8

#69 Palmetto Golfer

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:13 AM

View Postagatha, on 08 November 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.


Like Palmetto golfer, my son was September so that bday is actually in the normal area of trying to decide to start them or wait a year, they will either be oldest or youngest.  It is hardy a "redshirt" scenario.

Raynor...My son was born on the 28th of August...3 days before the cutoff...if you think this has somehow given my son some massive advantage you are out of your mind.

I have done a lot of coaching in the past 5 years in football and basketball.  Here is the truth that some parents just don't want to hear.  Some kids are just more athletic and get sports better than others.  Just like some kids get math better than others. I coach some that are awesome kids but couldn't start for the team 2 grades below them!!! Hear what I am saying. This kid's parents could "redshirt" this child for 2 years and it still wouldn't get them a starting spot.  On the flip side, I know some kids that could play and start for the team 2 years above them. Some kids have it and some kids don't.  God gives us all different gifts.

The biggest advantage that some kids have over others???? A parent willing to work with them.  I see it all of the time.  The kids that have parents that are willing to throw a ball and play outside with them are the ones way ahead of the others. That is 10x more important than this so called "redshirt"

9

#70 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:15 AM

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.

Or you're forced to carry 7 wedges because the 9i has 7i loft.  I agree with you completely.  I understand why parents want their kids to have every advantage.  But most refuse to acknowledge how "red-shirting" places other kids at a distinct disadvantage.  

My former neighbor was the star football player for the local high school a few years ago.  He is now the starting RB at Virginia Tech.  He graduated high school at 17 and became a starter at VT as a 17 year old freshman.  In talking to him, he credits having to "step-up" his game to keep up with the older kids he grew up competing against.  By the time he got to high school, that work ethic he was forced to adopt as a middle schooler propelled him beyond his classmates.  Regardless of the fact that many were nearly 2 years older then him.  His senior season in high school, while still only 16 for the majority of the football season, he rushed for 3,078 yards and scored 44 touchdowns.

Gladwell's book gets taken at face value far too frequently.  He suggests, to be great at something, one simply needs to devote 10,000 hours of practice to whatever they want to be great at.  In golf terms, standing on a range for 10,000 hours, blindly beating balls isn't going to make anyone a great golfer.  The practice needs to be detailed, precise and targeted.  Simply holding a kid back so they are older than their classmates isn't going to produce a college football player or PGA golfer.

Your neighbor is very much the exception as opposed to the rule. Very much.

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#71 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:21 AM

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

"Posted a 375-pound bench press and a 32-inch vertical jump in spring max testing"

I guess if you're an elite star then it doesn't matter.  Those guys are getting the opportunities whether they graduate on time, late, or early.  But for someone who is only merely "very very good" then it seems like having the extra year would help a lot.

I'm not advocating the ethics or morality behind it (my child is among the youngest in the grade).  It just seems obvious that it is an advantage and, if allowed by a state (i.e. legal) then more people should consider it.  Per this forum's estimates parents are already spending tens of thousands of dollars on junior golf per year to help their kids succeed - why not do the logical thing and hold them back to give them additional edge?

As I said earlier, I understand why some parents "red-shirt."  It's not something I would consider.  My oldest daughter has a July birthday and is the second youngest student in her grade level for the entire school system.  She has the highest GPA within her grade level as well.  "Red-shirting" her wouldn't have made much sense.  But given her July birthday and being the 2nd youngest kid in her grade level, the practice of "red-shirting" seems to be overused.  I would have expected several students in an entire grade level to have birthdays between July and September.

Mr. Peoples weight lifting prowess is a direct result of being the youngest and often one of the smallest football players as a rising middle schooler.  He needed to get stronger as a middle school kid and did with the help of former NFL OL Mark Dixon.  Steven's high school football coach.  Edit to add; Steven set the 375 pound bench press mark in the spring of 2014.  Just after turning 18 in late September 2013.

Do you really believe that he wouldnít have attained that level of success if he had been a year later in school.

There is obviously an abundance of natural talent there. He may have worked a bit harder being younger, possibly a bit more motivation, but odds are with that innate talent level he was going to be successful regardless of class.

Edited by deadsolid...shank, 08 November 2018 - 11:22 AM.

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#72 raynorfan1

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:25 AM

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 08 November 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

View Postagatha, on 08 November 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.


Like Palmetto golfer, my son was September so that bday is actually in the normal area of trying to decide to start them or wait a year, they will either be oldest or youngest.  It is hardy a "redshirt" scenario.

Raynor...My son was born on the 28th of August...3 days before the cutoff...if you think this has somehow given my son some massive advantage you are out of your mind.

I have done a lot of coaching in the past 5 years in football and basketball.  Here is the truth that some parents just don't want to hear.  Some kids are just more athletic and get sports better than others.  Just like some kids get math better than others. I coach some that are awesome kids but couldn't start for the team 2 grades below them!!! Hear what I am saying. This kid's parents could "redshirt" this child for 2 years and it still wouldn't get them a starting spot.  On the flip side, I know some kids that could play and start for the team 2 years above them. Some kids have it and some kids don't.  God gives us all different gifts.

The biggest advantage that some kids have over others???? A parent willing to work with them.  I see it all of the time.  The kids that have parents that are willing to throw a ball and play outside with them are the ones way ahead of the others. That is 10x more important than this so called "redshirt"

If it makes no difference...then why do you redshirt?

My daughter is August 25th. And she's the youngest in her class (September 1 cutoff). The oldest kid in her grade (first grade)is a full 18 months older than she is, and he is the "star" of the class. Not athletically, because they aren't really at that point yet. He's the best reader. He's the best at math. He's the best behaved. He's ahead of most of the second graders (where he would be middle-of-the-pack in age).

For my kid, it's probably helpful. He sets an example that she chases. But I also know that she does feel diminished because she's not as "smart" as he is.

From my POV, the public school system should stick to hard and fast cutoff dates OR the exclusive discretionary input of the teachers (private schools can do as they wish, that's why they're private).

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#73 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:45 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 08 November 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

View Postagatha, on 08 November 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.


Like Palmetto golfer, my son was September so that bday is actually in the normal area of trying to decide to start them or wait a year, they will either be oldest or youngest.  It is hardy a "redshirt" scenario.

Raynor...My son was born on the 28th of August...3 days before the cutoff...if you think this has somehow given my son some massive advantage you are out of your mind.

I have done a lot of coaching in the past 5 years in football and basketball.  Here is the truth that some parents just don't want to hear.  Some kids are just more athletic and get sports better than others.  Just like some kids get math better than others. I coach some that are awesome kids but couldn't start for the team 2 grades below them!!! Hear what I am saying. This kid's parents could "redshirt" this child for 2 years and it still wouldn't get them a starting spot.  On the flip side, I know some kids that could play and start for the team 2 years above them. Some kids have it and some kids don't.  God gives us all different gifts.

The biggest advantage that some kids have over others???? A parent willing to work with them.  I see it all of the time.  The kids that have parents that are willing to throw a ball and play outside with them are the ones way ahead of the others. That is 10x more important than this so called "redshirt"

If it makes no difference...then why do you redshirt?

My daughter is August 25th. And she's the youngest in her class (September 1 cutoff). The oldest kid in her grade (first grade)is a full 18 months older than she is, and he is the "star" of the class. Not athletically, because they aren't really at that point yet. He's the best reader. He's the best at math. He's the best behaved. He's ahead of most of the second graders (where he would be middle-of-the-pack in age).

For my kid, it's probably helpful. He sets an example that she chases. But I also know that she does feel diminished because she's not as "smart" as he is.

From my POV, the public school system should stick to hard and fast cutoff dates OR the exclusive discretionary input of the teachers (private schools can do as they wish, that's why they're private).

I don’t disagree with that at all.
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#74 Noles

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

View PostPalmetto Golfer, on 07 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree with Agatha

I have two boys....oldest is an August birthday and the younger is an October birthday.  The cutoff for sports around here is Sept. 1st.  The two of them are very different so I get to see if from different perspectives.

Oldest son (12 y/o) - usually is the youngest and he is thin to begin with. In football and soccer, he was a middle of the pack kid.  he did ok but certainly didn't stand out.  We made the decision to have him repeat 4K. This had nothing to do with sports. He is a quiet kid and we thought it was best for his maturity.  Now he is in 6th grade. At his school, he plays basketball for 6th grade and starts. If we had not held him back, there is no way he could play meaningful minutes for the 7th grade team. He is not big/fast/strong enough to hang.  He would play some be definitely not start.

Younger son (10 y/o) - totally different. He is usually one of the older kids on the field. Most of the time, he is the best player. He is just bigger/faster/stronger than the other kids. He has a ton of confidence. He is always the quarterback/point guard/shortstop when he plays. He is athletically gifted but it certainly doesn't hurt to be one of the older kids.

Like I said, we didn't hold back our oldest for sport reasons.  He need it from a confidence/maturity stand point but it has helped him in sports.  I am in favor of it if you think your child needs it. It certainly doesn't hurt.

This is actually my problem with it. It certainly doesn't hurt your child, but it certainly does crowd out another child from having the leadership experience, starting spot on the team, etc. that your redshirt giant is taking.

IMHO it's an incredibly selfish move and the fact that it's so pervasive is indicative of where we are as a society right now.

It's the "jacked lofts" debate of kids; no harm no foul to call a 3i a 5i...until you realize that there's no place left at the top of the bag for a 2i anymore.
. The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

Edited by Noles, 08 November 2018 - 11:53 AM.


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#75 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 11:58 AM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 08 November 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

"Posted a 375-pound bench press and a 32-inch vertical jump in spring max testing"

I guess if you're an elite star then it doesn't matter.  Those guys are getting the opportunities whether they graduate on time, late, or early.  But for someone who is only merely "very very good" then it seems like having the extra year would help a lot.

I'm not advocating the ethics or morality behind it (my child is among the youngest in the grade).  It just seems obvious that it is an advantage and, if allowed by a state (i.e. legal) then more people should consider it.  Per this forum's estimates parents are already spending tens of thousands of dollars on junior golf per year to help their kids succeed - why not do the logical thing and hold them back to give them additional edge?

As I said earlier, I understand why some parents "red-shirt."  It's not something I would consider.  My oldest daughter has a July birthday and is the second youngest student in her grade level for the entire school system.  She has the highest GPA within her grade level as well.  "Red-shirting" her wouldn't have made much sense.  But given her July birthday and being the 2nd youngest kid in her grade level, the practice of "red-shirting" seems to be overused.  I would have expected several students in an entire grade level to have birthdays between July and September.

Mr. Peoples weight lifting prowess is a direct result of being the youngest and often one of the smallest football players as a rising middle schooler.  He needed to get stronger as a middle school kid and did with the help of former NFL OL Mark Dixon.  Steven's high school football coach.  Edit to add; Steven set the 375 pound bench press mark in the spring of 2014.  Just after turning 18 in late September 2013.

Do you really believe that he wouldn't have attained that level of success if he had been a year later in school.

There is obviously an abundance of natural talent there. He may have worked a bit harder being younger, possibly a bit more motivation, but odds are with that innate talent level he was going to be successful regardless of class.

Yes, he would be in a similar position today and he may very well be the exception rather than the rule.  The need to "red-shirt" wouldn't have mattered for this kid.  His family made the correct decision that, he wouldn't benefit from "red-shirting."  

My issue with the concept in general, is the 5'-6" tall 165 pound dad who thinks "red-shirting" his son is magically going to turn him into a 6'-2" tall and 235 pound athlete.  I can't speak to what happens in other localities but where I live, this is a very real problem.  As I said in a previous post, my daughters school had 31 kids repeat 8th grade this year for athletic purposes.  That's 31 kids in an 8th grade class of 112!  The practice has gotten way out of hand locally!

If a child exhibits a lack of maturity or needs a boost in the classroom, absolutely, hold them back.  If a parent feels their child would benefit from starting school a year later, hold them back.  But to hold an honor-roll student back to gain some perceived advantage in sports is nonsensical!  And to have nearly 30% of a grade level held back for athletics is ridiculous.


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#76 raynorfan1

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.

Edited by raynorfan1, 08 November 2018 - 12:04 PM.


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#77 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:21 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 05 November 2018 - 01:01 AM, said:

View PostleftyDH04, on 03 November 2018 - 09:07 PM, said:

No real effect on academics?

That's the line I'd question.

There is one kid who took a year off before high school and trained in famous tennis academy

Did some distance learning courses and SAT prep during that year

Went back home the next year and resumed in the grade below his normal classmates

He ended up at school of his choice playing tennis and parents said he was better prepared academically and stronger player

Do you think that works for everybody?  That is the exception, not the rule.

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#78 leezer99

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 12:30 PM

I thought we were homeschooling elite athletes now instead of redshirting.

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#79 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:01 PM

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 08 November 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

"Posted a 375-pound bench press and a 32-inch vertical jump in spring max testing"

I guess if you're an elite star then it doesn't matter.  Those guys are getting the opportunities whether they graduate on time, late, or early.  But for someone who is only merely "very very good" then it seems like having the extra year would help a lot.

I'm not advocating the ethics or morality behind it (my child is among the youngest in the grade).  It just seems obvious that it is an advantage and, if allowed by a state (i.e. legal) then more people should consider it.  Per this forum's estimates parents are already spending tens of thousands of dollars on junior golf per year to help their kids succeed - why not do the logical thing and hold them back to give them additional edge?

As I said earlier, I understand why some parents "red-shirt."  It's not something I would consider.  My oldest daughter has a July birthday and is the second youngest student in her grade level for the entire school system.  She has the highest GPA within her grade level as well.  "Red-shirting" her wouldn't have made much sense.  But given her July birthday and being the 2nd youngest kid in her grade level, the practice of "red-shirting" seems to be overused.  I would have expected several students in an entire grade level to have birthdays between July and September.

Mr. Peoples weight lifting prowess is a direct result of being the youngest and often one of the smallest football players as a rising middle schooler.  He needed to get stronger as a middle school kid and did with the help of former NFL OL Mark Dixon.  Steven's high school football coach.  Edit to add; Steven set the 375 pound bench press mark in the spring of 2014.  Just after turning 18 in late September 2013.

Do you really believe that he wouldn't have attained that level of success if he had been a year later in school.

There is obviously an abundance of natural talent there. He may have worked a bit harder being younger, possibly a bit more motivation, but odds are with that innate talent level he was going to be successful regardless of class.

Yes, he would be in a similar position today and he may very well be the exception rather than the rule.  The need to "red-shirt" wouldn't have mattered for this kid.  His family made the correct decision that, he wouldn't benefit from "red-shirting."  

My issue with the concept in general, is the 5'-6" tall 165 pound dad who thinks "red-shirting" his son is magically going to turn him into a 6'-2" tall and 235 pound athlete.  I can't speak to what happens in other localities but where I live, this is a very real problem.  As I said in a previous post, my daughters school had 31 kids repeat 8th grade this year for athletic purposes.  That's 31 kids in an 8th grade class of 112!  The practice has gotten way out of hand locally!

If a child exhibits a lack of maturity or needs a boost in the classroom, absolutely, hold them back.  If a parent feels their child would benefit from starting school a year later, hold them back.  But to hold an honor-roll student back to gain some perceived advantage in sports is nonsensical!  And to have nearly 30% of a grade level held back for athletics is ridiculous.

All valid points, canít argue them.

For the record (I think I posted earlier in this thread), Iím not advocating for holding kids back for sports by any means. Both of mine graduated HS at 17 so were  young in relation to their classmates.

The Mrs is an Early Childhood education person, want to see her get fired up, this topic will do it. 😀

Edited by deadsolid...shank, 08 November 2018 - 01:03 PM.

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#80 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:09 PM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 08 November 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 11:58 AM, said:

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 08 November 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 08 November 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

"Posted a 375-pound bench press and a 32-inch vertical jump in spring max testing"

I guess if you're an elite star then it doesn't matter.  Those guys are getting the opportunities whether they graduate on time, late, or early.  But for someone who is only merely "very very good" then it seems like having the extra year would help a lot.

I'm not advocating the ethics or morality behind it (my child is among the youngest in the grade).  It just seems obvious that it is an advantage and, if allowed by a state (i.e. legal) then more people should consider it.  Per this forum's estimates parents are already spending tens of thousands of dollars on junior golf per year to help their kids succeed - why not do the logical thing and hold them back to give them additional edge?

As I said earlier, I understand why some parents "red-shirt."  It's not something I would consider.  My oldest daughter has a July birthday and is the second youngest student in her grade level for the entire school system.  She has the highest GPA within her grade level as well.  "Red-shirting" her wouldn't have made much sense.  But given her July birthday and being the 2nd youngest kid in her grade level, the practice of "red-shirting" seems to be overused.  I would have expected several students in an entire grade level to have birthdays between July and September.

Mr. Peoples weight lifting prowess is a direct result of being the youngest and often one of the smallest football players as a rising middle schooler.  He needed to get stronger as a middle school kid and did with the help of former NFL OL Mark Dixon.  Steven's high school football coach.  Edit to add; Steven set the 375 pound bench press mark in the spring of 2014.  Just after turning 18 in late September 2013.

Do you really believe that he wouldn't have attained that level of success if he had been a year later in school.

There is obviously an abundance of natural talent there. He may have worked a bit harder being younger, possibly a bit more motivation, but odds are with that innate talent level he was going to be successful regardless of class.

Yes, he would be in a similar position today and he may very well be the exception rather than the rule.  The need to "red-shirt" wouldn't have mattered for this kid.  His family made the correct decision that, he wouldn't benefit from "red-shirting."  

My issue with the concept in general, is the 5'-6" tall 165 pound dad who thinks "red-shirting" his son is magically going to turn him into a 6'-2" tall and 235 pound athlete.  I can't speak to what happens in other localities but where I live, this is a very real problem.  As I said in a previous post, my daughters school had 31 kids repeat 8th grade this year for athletic purposes.  That's 31 kids in an 8th grade class of 112!  The practice has gotten way out of hand locally!

If a child exhibits a lack of maturity or needs a boost in the classroom, absolutely, hold them back.  If a parent feels their child would benefit from starting school a year later, hold them back.  But to hold an honor-roll student back to gain some perceived advantage in sports is nonsensical!  And to have nearly 30% of a grade level held back for athletics is ridiculous.

All valid points, can't argue them.

For the record (I think I posted earlier in this thread), I'm not advocating for holding kids back for sports by any means. Both of mine graduated HS at 17 so were  young in relation to their classmates.

The Mrs is an Early Childhood education person, want to see her get fired up, this topic will do it. ��

My wife was appointed to school board in May.  I'm not permitted to seek public appointment or election due to my employment contract.  She's trying to help curb some of this locally.

Our local high school has won more than 30 team and individual state championships in a variety of sports since 2009.  Since the school opened in 1953, it has produced a grand total of 3 athletic scholarships. These local kids are peaking in high school and have little to nothing to show for the effort!


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#81 Noles

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:34 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.
We definitely are not going to agree on this subject.

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#82 leezer99

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 01:36 PM

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

Our local high school has won more than 30 team and individual state championships in a variety of sports since 2009.  Since the school opened in 1953, it has produced a grand total of 3 athletic scholarships. These local kids are peaking in high school and have little to nothing to show for the effort!

That's not good.  Do you really attribute the lack of athletic scholarships to kids reaching their peak in HS or is it an administrative failure?  Would seem like any school in the country could produce at least one athletic scholarship every decade with the right guidance counselor.

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#83 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:06 PM

View Postleezer99, on 08 November 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

View PostSixcat, on 08 November 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

Our local high school has won more than 30 team and individual state championships in a variety of sports since 2009.  Since the school opened in 1953, it has produced a grand total of 3 athletic scholarships. These local kids are peaking in high school and have little to nothing to show for the effort!

That's not good.  Do you really attribute the lack of athletic scholarships to kids reaching their peak in HS or is it an administrative failure?  Would seem like any school in the country could produce at least one athletic scholarship every decade with the right guidance counselor.

It's failure from every aspect and begins at home from a young age.

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#84 raynorfan1

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:07 PM

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.
We definitely are not going to agree on this subject.

That's fair.

I'll also agree that each of us has our own experience / local realities. We have an incredibly strong school system with phenomenal teachers and administrators whose judgement I respect far beyond my own. I get that not everybody has the same reality, and you have to do what you think is best.

That said, putting your child first (which I acknowledge a large number of people would and do do), is also inherently a selfish behavior. That doesn't make it per se wrong; selfish motivations drive a lot of what's good about the world.

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#85 heavy_hitter

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:13 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.
We definitely are not going to agree on this subject.

That's fair.

I'll also agree that each of us has our own experience / local realities. We have an incredibly strong school system with phenomenal teachers and administrators whose judgement I respect far beyond my own. I get that not everybody has the same reality, and you have to do what you think is best.

That said, putting your child first (which I acknowledge a large number of people would and do do), is also inherently a selfish behavior. That doesn't make it per se wrong; selfish motivations drive a lot of what's good about the world.

Public education in the US is failing.  The more government has gotten involved, the worse it has gotten.  When the initiative became to send everyone to college, education started to get watered down.


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#86 leezer99

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 02:56 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 November 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.
We definitely are not going to agree on this subject.

That's fair.

I'll also agree that each of us has our own experience / local realities. We have an incredibly strong school system with phenomenal teachers and administrators whose judgement I respect far beyond my own. I get that not everybody has the same reality, and you have to do what you think is best.

That said, putting your child first (which I acknowledge a large number of people would and do do), is also inherently a selfish behavior. That doesn't make it per se wrong; selfish motivations drive a lot of what's good about the world.

Public education in the US is failing.  The more government has gotten involved, the worse it has gotten.  When the initiative became to send everyone to college, education started to get watered down.

FSU started a mandatory Anti Stress program for all students that you can get out of, if it causes you too much stress.  That's all you need to know about our education system.

Edited by leezer99, 08 November 2018 - 03:04 PM.


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#87 deadsolid...shank

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 04:35 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 08 November 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.
We definitely are not going to agree on this subject.

That's fair.

I'll also agree that each of us has our own experience / local realities. We have an incredibly strong school system with phenomenal teachers and administrators whose judgement I respect far beyond my own. I get that not everybody has the same reality, and you have to do what you think is best.

That said, putting your child first (which I acknowledge a large number of people would and do do), is also inherently a selfish behavior. That doesn't make it per se wrong; selfish motivations drive a lot of what's good about the world.

Public education in the US is failing.  The more government has gotten involved, the worse it has gotten.  When the initiative became to send everyone to college, education started to get watered down.

When the pinheads in charge realize that formal education is not for everyone, and our classrooms stop moving at the pace of the slowest students, it MIGHT start a change in the right direction

I hope we’re not getting too close to political discussion here. It’s a good topic and I would hate to see it get shut down.
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#88 Sixcat

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 05:21 PM

View Postdeadsolid...shank, on 08 November 2018 - 04:35 PM, said:

When the pinheads in charge realize that formal education is not for everyone, and our classrooms stop moving at the pace of the slowest students, it MIGHT start a change in the right direction

I hope we’re not getting too close to political discussion here. It’s a good topic and I would hate to see it get shut down.

The local school system implemented a class calendar concept about 5 years ago that has the rest of the state visiting on a regular basis to see how it works.  It's simple really and is derived from a year-round school concept.  The school year begins in late July.  The first grading period is 45 days long.  Following the first 45 day grading period, students can choose to take "intersession" courses such as guitar lessons, piano lessons, welding classes, weight lifting or even job shadowing for high school students. There are dozens of these opportunities.  This lasts 2-weeks and then school closes for a week.  Therefore, it's called a 45-15 model.  In class for 45 days, out of class for 15 days.  During the 15 day "intersession" between grading periods, students in good standing can stay home, take vacations with family, or take advantage of these unique opportunities such as guitar lessons.  Students who are in jeopardy of falling behind are required to do 2-weeks of "remediation".

When the second grading period begins following the 3-week break, they begin another 45 day classroom session.  Followed by another 15 day "intersession", which falls around Christmas and New Year.  This 45-15 model continues until summer vacation, which is two back-to-back 15 day breaks.

School system standardized testing scores have skyrocketed since this took effect.  I'm not a fan of "standardized testing" but this system allows teachers time to teach each student rather than "teach to the test".  The teachers in our school district rave about this system.

I believe there is hope!

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#89 Noles

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 05:55 PM

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

View Postraynorfan1, on 08 November 2018 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

The opposite can also be argued as well.  If I think I should hold my child back but I don't, and put a child in school that isn't really ready in an academic or maturity sense, then I am hurting those potential classmates as well.  My immature, behind the pace academically child will certainly have a negative effect on that class and those kids in it.

Bottom line, parents need to do what they think is best for their child.  No one knows each child better than their parent.

I disagree.

I agree with the premise that if you put a child in school and they're not prepared for it, they could be disruptive and slow down the class. There is nobody better positioned than the professional staff at the school - who have educated hundreds of children - to make this determination. And if they think a child should be held back, or isn't ready to advance to the next grade, they should exercise that discretion. That's their job. If parents feel strongly that the teachers/professional staff of the school are making a mistake, they should look into private school options.

We can all (I think) agree that kids develop at different rates and we should be striving to put kids into an academic (and other setting) where they will be sort of in the middle of the bell curve. Where I think it is selfish/unfair is when parents manipulate the system to ensure that their kid is a top decile performer.
We definitely are not going to agree on this subject.

That's fair.

I'll also agree that each of us has our own experience / local realities. We have an incredibly strong school system with phenomenal teachers and administrators whose judgement I respect far beyond my own. I get that not everybody has the same reality, and you have to do what you think is best.

That said, putting your child first (which I acknowledge a large number of people would and do do), is also inherently a selfish behavior. That doesn't make it per se wrong; selfish motivations drive a lot of what's good about the world.
I am a public school teacher in a very successful district in the suburbs of Philadelphia and a parent of one public school student, and one private school student.    That's where my views come from.  I also think that putting my child first is not selfish.  Putting my own interest first is inherently selfish, hence the term SELF-ish.  Had I not started my daughter a year later, my wife could have gone back to work sooner and that absolutely would have been better for me.

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#90 raynorfan1

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Posted 08 November 2018 - 06:44 PM

View PostNoles, on 08 November 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

I am a public school teacher in a very successful district in the suburbs of Philadelphia and a parent of one public school student, and one private school student. That's where my views come from.  I also think that putting my child first is not selfish.  Putting my own interest first is inherently selfish, hence the term SELF-ish.  Had I not started my daughter a year later, my wife could have gone back to work sooner and that absolutely would have been better for me.

Pretty blurry line between your "self" interest and that of your child. I'm not sure that I, personally, could draw that distinction.

I'm (legitimately) interested in why you, as a teacher, believe that this is good public policy? Because I've struggled with it for a while, and I don't see it. To me, it feels like an extension of a race-to-the-bottom approach that we've been on as a society forever.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me to hold kids back to prevent them from being disadvantaged. If you're talking about giving a kid an opportunity to achieve in the fat part of the bell curve instead of in the bottom tail, I fully support it. Where it falls apart in my mind is when you start manipulating the structure to create "champions" who perform at the top of the bell curve by virtue of their age (rather than by virtue of their actual ability).

I get why as a parent, one would want this. I don't get how anybody can view it as good public policy.


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