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Red shirting


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#1 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 02:09 AM

I heard some parents talk about holding back their kid or starting Kindergarten a year late

They called it red shirting

They said it would definitely give kids an advantage in sports in high school

Kids will be bigger and stronger being up to a year older

No real impact on academics

Would it make a big difference in golf too?

What do you think?


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#2 hack2489

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 03:41 AM

According to this article, yes:

https://theconversat...-in-life-102401

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#3 theboypinoy

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 04:46 AM

Basketball and football see numerous athletes that are older entering their first year of college

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#4 cubuffs

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 06:59 AM

Living here in the south, I see it much more then I did when we lived on the east coast.  If there a birthday within a few months of the cutoff I can almost guarantee for a boy that they will start later.

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#5 AUSweeper

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 07:21 AM

In my area itís not so much for an athletic advantage but rather for an academic.  The academic expectations going into kindergarten are much higher now than ever.  If your kid canít read (or at least recognize 100 sight words) you are gonna be behind.  Have to know shapes, colors....  The majority of kids in my 9yoís grade are at least a year older than him.


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#6 Noles

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 07:43 AM

I teach in an elementary school and it is a huge advantage academically for the kids who are the older ones in each grade.  Especially K-2.  I can spot right away the ones who barely made the birthday cutoff and they are almost always behind the average students.

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#7 tiger1873

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 08:01 AM

See this all the time. For Golf though you go by age so it more about the timing of the tournament around their birthday then school year.  It's really only a factor when there younger.  For instance if you are competing in US Kids Worlds and your birthday is September or Late August your at a huge advantage over a kid born in June or July.  So if your kid is under 10 you need to consider that in your expectations as it will have a huge impact since they could actually be a lot younger then the older competitors.


I also think for boys this tends to a bigger deal then girls at a later age.  At the end of the day all things even out as they get older and the kid who was winning because he simply was older will suddenly have a hard time winning if they never develop the same talent.

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#8 BertGA

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 08:45 AM

Speaking from a strictly academic standpoint, I'm not sure that advantage plays out by the time they graduate school. As always seems to be the case, some studies show a benefit while others do not.

You have to consider confounding factors. Families that redshirt tend to be more affluent. Affluence alone provides other advantages in academic performance. Lower income families, which are already at risk for lower academic performance, tend to send their kids to school as early as possible, since it is expensive to pay for child care for another year. This difference alone could account for the early academic advantages. The fact that a parent is considering holding their child back to increase their academic outcomes shows that the parent is interested in this outcome, thus is more likely to provide other resources to improve their performance.

Delaying children's school entry linked to poor academic performance.

I think one of the more comprehensive articles on the topic is this one:  Redshirting may do more harm than good...
"In his analysis, Gladwell overstates the benefits of redshirting to some degree. In fact, a balanced look at the research suggests that while children derive a short-term gain from being redshirted, that advantage dissipates quickly over time."

"Consistent with this evidence, the research on relative age indicates that being among the youngest in the class has benefits, in both the short and long term. Why? Because older classmates tend to be higher achieving and better behaved. They model positive behavior, and the younger students achieve greater academic gains from learning and competing with older ones."

I think that's the most interesting part. We can all agree that to become the best we should play against the best competition. Shouldn't it be the same with academic challenges?

Edited by BertGA, 24 October 2018 - 08:46 AM.


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#9 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 08:48 AM

My son has a late Birthday and one of the youngest kids in his class.  When he played at World's he was one of the youngest kids there.  We have had the discussion about holding him back this year as an 8th grader because he is immature, but at the end of the day I know it won't do anything for him.  He makes straight A's in Honors classes.  Took Algebra in 7th and made an A with the high EOC score in the county.  Taking Geometry Honors this year as an 8th grader and makes A's on everything.  As a golfer he has always competed against the older kids.  When going to World's he was always one of the youngest competing and did just fine.  When competing locally I always moved him up to compete against the older kids.  It is nothing new to him.  If he were on his high school golf team this year, who advanced to play in the state championship, he would have played 3 or 4 despite driving the ball 30-40 yards less than the other kids on the team.

If I were to hold him back it would be for me, not him.  He will grow up and be just fine in whatever he decides to do in life.

Studies have shown that holding kids back for athletic reasons does not work.

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#10 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 08:48 AM

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

See this all the time. For Golf though you go by age so it more about the timing of the tournament around their birthday then school year.  It's really only a factor when there younger.  For instance if you are competing in US Kids Worlds and your birthday is September or Late August your at a huge advantage over a kid born in June or July.  So if your kid is under 10 you need to consider that in your expectations as it will have a huge impact since they could actually be a lot younger then the older competitors.


I also think for boys this tends to a bigger deal then girls at a later age.  At the end of the day all things even out as they get older and the kid who was winning because he simply was older will suddenly have a hard time winning if they never develop the same talent.

But by the time high school they not grouping by ages for golf anymore?


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#11 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 08:50 AM

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

See this all the time. For Golf though you go by age so it more about the timing of the tournament around their birthday then school year.  It's really only a factor when there younger.  For instance if you are competing in US Kids Worlds and your birthday is September or Late August your at a huge advantage over a kid born in June or July.  So if your kid is under 10 you need to consider that in your expectations as it will have a huge impact since they could actually be a lot younger then the older competitors.


I also think for boys this tends to a bigger deal then girls at a later age.  At the end of the day all things even out as they get older and the kid who was winning because he simply was older will suddenly have a hard time winning if they never develop the same talent.

But by the time high school they not grouping by ages for golf anymore?

No they don't.  They compete in age groups.  AJGA plays them 12-18.  Hurricane is 11-13 then 14-18.  SFPGA here is 13-18.  FJT is 13-15 and 16-18.

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#12 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 08:56 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 24 October 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

See this all the time. For Golf though you go by age so it more about the timing of the tournament around their birthday then school year.  It's really only a factor when there younger.  For instance if you are competing in US Kids Worlds and your birthday is September or Late August your at a huge advantage over a kid born in June or July.  So if your kid is under 10 you need to consider that in your expectations as it will have a huge impact since they could actually be a lot younger then the older competitors.


I also think for boys this tends to a bigger deal then girls at a later age.  At the end of the day all things even out as they get older and the kid who was winning because he simply was older will suddenly have a hard time winning if they never develop the same talent.

But by the time high school they not grouping by ages for golf anymore?

No they don't.  They compete in age groups.  AJGA plays them 12-18.  Hurricane is 11-13 then 14-18.  SFPGA here is 13-18.  FJT is 13-15 and 16-18.

Do college golf coaches care about age of player?

If not, then seems like being older for a graduating class can give an advantage to be recruited for golf?

Also if college golf coaches recruiting younger and younger then being a year older could be a big difference?

Tennis has 12/14/16/18 and younger age divisions, so there doesn't seem to be as much benefit

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#13 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 09:01 AM

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 08:56 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 24 October 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 08:01 AM, said:

See this all the time. For Golf though you go by age so it more about the timing of the tournament around their birthday then school year.  It's really only a factor when there younger.  For instance if you are competing in US Kids Worlds and your birthday is September or Late August your at a huge advantage over a kid born in June or July.  So if your kid is under 10 you need to consider that in your expectations as it will have a huge impact since they could actually be a lot younger then the older competitors.


I also think for boys this tends to a bigger deal then girls at a later age.  At the end of the day all things even out as they get older and the kid who was winning because he simply was older will suddenly have a hard time winning if they never develop the same talent.

But by the time high school they not grouping by ages for golf anymore?

No they don't.  They compete in age groups.  AJGA plays them 12-18.  Hurricane is 11-13 then 14-18.  SFPGA here is 13-18.  FJT is 13-15 and 16-18.

Do college golf coaches care about age of player?

If not, then seems like being older for a graduating class can give an advantage to be recruited for golf?

Also if college golf coaches recruiting younger and younger then being a year older could be a big difference?

Tennis has 12/14/16/18 and younger age divisions, so there doesn't seem to be as much benefit

Age doesn't matter.  My daughter didn't start playing golf until she was 12 close to 13.  She graduated high school when she was 17.  She plays D1 college golf.

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#14 tiger1873

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM

You also should not look at Golf like Football. There is a big difference there because Football is a school sport and the best players all play in schools that support them.  A lot team sports are like that. Golf, Tennis is where the individual is the one who determines what tournaments to play and do not even need to be in school to participate.

With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

Edited by tiger1873, 24 October 2018 - 09:09 AM.


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#15 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 09:15 AM

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:



With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

There are a lot of great high school golfers in South Florida playing high school golf.  There has been a huge shift over the past several years in that many of the great players are playing.


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#16 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 09:22 AM

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

You also should not look at Golf like Football. There is a big difference there because Football is a school sport and the best players all play in schools that support them.  A lot team sports are like that. Golf, Tennis is where the individual is the one who determines what tournaments to play and do not even need to be in school to participate.

With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

I agree about team sports played in high school

But college golf coach is recruiting based on graduating class?

And if there are not tighter age groupings in competitions outside of school then seems like being older is advantage

Edited by TigerMom, 24 October 2018 - 09:26 AM.


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#17 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 09:35 AM

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

You also should not look at Golf like Football. There is a big difference there because Football is a school sport and the best players all play in schools that support them.  A lot team sports are like that. Golf, Tennis is where the individual is the one who determines what tournaments to play and do not even need to be in school to participate.

With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

I agree about team sports played in high school

But college coach is recruiting based on graduating class

And if there are not tighter age groupings in competitions outside of school then seems like being older is advantage

It isn't an advantage at all.  Alexa Pano is winning tournaments all over the country playing UP in older divisions.  The Luke Clantons of the world on the boy's side are doing the same thing.  You are either good or you are not.

School isn't tight age divisions either.  14-18 year olds.

College coaches will start making lists of who to look for when kids are in 7th/8th grade.  As they progress the list will get shorter.  They always will make room for that kid that develops later.  Age has nothing to do with recruiting.  Kids are recruited that never win.  Kids go to great colleges and have never won an event.  It is the body of work that the colleges look at.  Most kids don't go to college and play their first year to begin with unless they are the best of the best.  Even then, great players will ride the pine.  Garrett Barber was sought after by everyone last year.  He went to LSU and he played in only 2 events this fall.

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#18 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 10:02 AM

 heavy_hitter, on 24 October 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

You also should not look at Golf like Football. There is a big difference there because Football is a school sport and the best players all play in schools that support them.  A lot team sports are like that. Golf, Tennis is where the individual is the one who determines what tournaments to play and do not even need to be in school to participate.

With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

I agree about team sports played in high school

But college coach is recruiting based on graduating class

And if there are not tighter age groupings in competitions outside of school then seems like being older is advantage

It isn't an advantage at all.  Alexa Pano is winning tournaments all over the country playing UP in older divisions.  The Luke Clantons of the world on the boy's side are doing the same thing.  You are either good or you are not.

School isn't tight age divisions either.  14-18 year olds.

College coaches will start making lists of who to look for when kids are in 7th/8th grade.  As they progress the list will get shorter.  They always will make room for that kid that develops later.  Age has nothing to do with recruiting.  Kids are recruited that never win.  Kids go to great colleges and have never won an event.  It is the body of work that the colleges look at.  Most kids don't go to college and play their first year to begin with unless they are the best of the best.  Even then, great players will ride the pine.  Garrett Barber was sought after by everyone last year.  He went to LSU and he played in only 2 events this fall.

Ok I think I understand what you are saying

But I have a question about how rankings work

If your child moved to the class below her would her ranking improve?

Say if you are #200 in class of 2024, if she were to switch to class of 2025 with exact same scores and tournament finishes she wouldn't stay same rank, but probably have better maybe #150?

Edited by TigerMom, 24 October 2018 - 10:03 AM.


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#19 warrio17

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 10:06 AM

 Noles, on 24 October 2018 - 07:43 AM, said:

I teach in an elementary school and it is a huge advantage academically for the kids who are the older ones in each grade.  Especially K-2.  I can spot right away the ones who barely made the birthday cutoff and they are almost always behind the average students.

This is the exact reason my wife and I chose to keep our son back. He has a June 10th birthday with cut off being August 1st, I would rather him be the oldest vs the youngest. We are faced with another year of daycare expenses, but that is irrelevant in comparison to his education and development early on.
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#20 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 10:21 AM

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

 heavy_hitter, on 24 October 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

 TigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

 tiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

You also should not look at Golf like Football. There is a big difference there because Football is a school sport and the best players all play in schools that support them.  A lot team sports are like that. Golf, Tennis is where the individual is the one who determines what tournaments to play and do not even need to be in school to participate.

With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

I agree about team sports played in high school

But college coach is recruiting based on graduating class

And if there are not tighter age groupings in competitions outside of school then seems like being older is advantage

It isn't an advantage at all.  Alexa Pano is winning tournaments all over the country playing UP in older divisions.  The Luke Clantons of the world on the boy's side are doing the same thing.  You are either good or you are not.

School isn't tight age divisions either.  14-18 year olds.

College coaches will start making lists of who to look for when kids are in 7th/8th grade.  As they progress the list will get shorter.  They always will make room for that kid that develops later.  Age has nothing to do with recruiting.  Kids are recruited that never win.  Kids go to great colleges and have never won an event.  It is the body of work that the colleges look at.  Most kids don't go to college and play their first year to begin with unless they are the best of the best.  Even then, great players will ride the pine.  Garrett Barber was sought after by everyone last year.  He went to LSU and he played in only 2 events this fall.

Ok I think I understand what you are saying

But I have a question about how rankings work

If your child moved to the class below her would her ranking improve?

Say if you are #200 in class of 2024, if she were to switch to class of 2025 with exact same scores and tournament finishes she wouldn't stay same rank, but probably have better maybe #150?

It is true, but is more relevant when they are younger than when they get older.  If I held my kid back he would jump 20 spots in our state.  I expect him to make that jump within the year in the class he is in now anyway.  Right now he is in a no mans land because of his age being relative to everyone else in his class.  When it is relative it won't matter if it is this year or last year.  

You need to have a good understanding of the ranking system to understand what I am saying.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 24 October 2018 - 10:48 AM.


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#21 tiger1873

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 12:07 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 October 2018 - 10:21 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 10:02 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 24 October 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 09:22 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 24 October 2018 - 09:06 AM, said:

You also should not look at Golf like Football. There is a big difference there because Football is a school sport and the best players all play in schools that support them.  A lot team sports are like that. Golf, Tennis is where the individual is the one who determines what tournaments to play and do not even need to be in school to participate.

With golf the best players don't always play on a high school team so holding back a kid is not helping them play golf better. Plus some of the best players in the game didn't pick up a club until there teenagers.

I agree about team sports played in high school

But college coach is recruiting based on graduating class

And if there are not tighter age groupings in competitions outside of school then seems like being older is advantage

It isn't an advantage at all.  Alexa Pano is winning tournaments all over the country playing UP in older divisions.  The Luke Clantons of the world on the boy's side are doing the same thing.  You are either good or you are not.

School isn't tight age divisions either.  14-18 year olds.

College coaches will start making lists of who to look for when kids are in 7th/8th grade.  As they progress the list will get shorter.  They always will make room for that kid that develops later.  Age has nothing to do with recruiting.  Kids are recruited that never win.  Kids go to great colleges and have never won an event.  It is the body of work that the colleges look at.  Most kids don't go to college and play their first year to begin with unless they are the best of the best.  Even then, great players will ride the pine.  Garrett Barber was sought after by everyone last year.  He went to LSU and he played in only 2 events this fall.

Ok I think I understand what you are saying

But I have a question about how rankings work

If your child moved to the class below her would her ranking improve?

Say if you are #200 in class of 2024, if she were to switch to class of 2025 with exact same scores and tournament finishes she wouldn't stay same rank, but probably have better maybe #150?

It is true, but is more relevant when they are younger than when they get older.  If I held my kid back he would jump 20 spots in our state.  I expect him to make that jump within the year in the class he is in now anyway.  Right now he is in a no mans land because of his age being relative to everyone else in his class.  When it is relative it won't matter if it is this year or last year.  

You need to have a good understanding of the ranking system to understand what I am saying.

So true Very much relevant when they are younger not so much when they get older.  My youngest is 7 so a year can make a huge difference if were talking about winning tournaments.  When there younger everyone knows this that is why no one cares about those tournaments when the get older.

Age is a lot less of a factor when they get older. My older daughter is 11 and the course she plays are short for her because many times she can't use a driver off the tee. Maturity is a big thing at this age and I believe the biggest thing holder her back . Having said that in a year or two when she is 13 I don't see her having a problem competing with 18 year olds. In a lot case I think it will help since she is so far off the tee driving and may actually do better. In fact I think this is the case for a lot kids who hit long.

Edited by tiger1873, 24 October 2018 - 12:13 PM.


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#22 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 12:33 PM

I guess I don't really understand

I thought junior golfers are improving a lot each year, even in high school

Even the really good ones

If not, then would think college coaches just sign recruits really early, around when the improvement stops or dramatically slows?

Doesn't make sense to me that there is no difference between a 18-19 year old vs 17-18 (around age when most commit to college)

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#23 wildcatden

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 12:44 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I guess I don't really understand

I thought junior golfers are improving a lot each year, even in high school

Even the really good ones

If not, then would think college coaches just sign recruits really early, around when the improvement stops or dramatically slows?

Doesn't make sense to me that there is no difference between a 18-19 year old vs 17-18 (around age when most commit to college)

There are rules. Here's a good rundown:  https://www.ajga.org/parents/collegegolf.asp

As far as difference, it depends on the player. For the outliers (think Tiger), they were beating older kids when they were 2,3,4,5 years younger than them.

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#24 tiger1873

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 12:49 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I guess I don't really understand

I thought junior golfers are improving a lot each year, even in high school

Even the really good ones

If not, then would think college coaches just sign recruits really early, around when the improvement stops or dramatically slows?

Doesn't make sense to me that there is no difference between a 18-19 year old vs 17-18 (around age when most commit to college)

They don't officially commit until junior year so yes lots can happen. The problem is by the time they are Juniors everyone else wants them too. The solution is to get kids to commit early to the program.  Verbal Commitments mean nothing but if they want someone bad enough they know they need to reach out sooner then later to get them.  

I also think programs who want to rise in ranks will be more aggressive then better schools who kids naturally gravitate towards.

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#25 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 12:57 PM

View Postwildcatden, on 24 October 2018 - 12:44 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

I guess I don't really understand

I thought junior golfers are improving a lot each year, even in high school

Even the really good ones

If not, then would think college coaches just sign recruits really early, around when the improvement stops or dramatically slows?

Doesn't make sense to me that there is no difference between a 18-19 year old vs 17-18 (around age when most commit to college)

There are rules. Here's a good rundown:  https://www.ajga.org/parents/collegegolf.asp

As far as difference, it depends on the player. For the outliers (think Tiger), they were beating older kids when they were 2,3,4,5 years younger than them.

Just because a good player can beat someone older doesn't mean they won't be an even better player a year later

Even Tiger Woods was a better player at 19 vs 18 and 18 vs 17 and 17 vs 16

What do instructors think about this?


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#26 wildcatden

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 01:01 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:


Just because a good player can beat someone older doesn't mean they won't be an even better player a year later



See inverse: Just because a good player at 17 beat a 15 year old doesn't mean that the 17 year old now turned 18 will beat the now turned 16 year old next year.

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#27 TigerMom

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 01:14 PM

View Postwildcatden, on 24 October 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Just because a good player can beat someone older doesn't mean they won't be an even better player a year later



See inverse: Just because a good player at 17 beat a 15 year old doesn't mean that the 17 year old now turned 18 will beat the now turned 16 year old next year.

I don't understand why that would be relevant

you only need to commit to college once (hopefully)

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#28 tiger1873

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 01:35 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 24 October 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Just because a good player can beat someone older doesn't mean they won't be an even better player a year later



See inverse: Just because a good player at 17 beat a 15 year old doesn't mean that the 17 year old now turned 18 will beat the now turned 16 year old next year.

I don't understand why that would be relevant

you only need to commit to college once (hopefully)

Thats why rankings change over time. Recruiting at best is a guess.

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#29 BrianMcG

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 01:38 PM

I wished I had been red shirted. Not for sports or anything. Itís just all the girls were always taller than me until my senior year in high school. Lol.
Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
Bobby: I play because I love it.
Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.

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#30 heavy_hitter

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Posted 24 October 2018 - 03:21 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

View Postwildcatden, on 24 October 2018 - 01:01 PM, said:

View PostTigerMom, on 24 October 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

Just because a good player can beat someone older doesn't mean they won't be an even better player a year later



See inverse: Just because a good player at 17 beat a 15 year old doesn't mean that the 17 year old now turned 18 will beat the now turned 16 year old next year.

I don't understand why that would be relevant

you only need to commit to college once (hopefully)

A verbal commitment to the college isn’t a legal document.  That commitment when time comes doesn’t have to be honored by the school.  If you don’t perform they will not offer you money.


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