Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

- - - - -

"Holing out" in 2019


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,910 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 6258

Posted 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

16/5.5


Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?


A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#2 Augster

Augster

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,781 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 30291
  • Joined: 05/31/2007
  • Location:MPLS, MN
GolfWRX Likes : 1535

Posted 10 October 2018 - 06:44 PM

They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.

IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. Im hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.

2

#3 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,136 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6832

Posted 10 October 2018 - 06:58 PM

View PostAugster, on 10 October 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.

IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. Im hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.
Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.

Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.

Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. :)

Edited by Shilgy, 10 October 2018 - 06:59 PM.

TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

3

#4 Colin L

Colin L

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,796 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 195200
  • Joined: 07/28/2012
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland
  • Handicap:16.5
GolfWRX Likes : 882

Posted 11 October 2018 - 02:13 AM

View PostShilgy, on 10 October 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostAugster, on 10 October 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.

IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I'm hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.
Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.

Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.

Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. :)

I don't get what you mean by "[pulling] that crap again" and "gamesmanship". Have you misunderstood the Decision which actually says that taking a ball out of the hole before it is motionless is permitted`?

It's only going to be possible when you have a tap-in close enough that you are in a position to reach into the hole before the ball stops moving, but I reckon that will be done quite frequently.  I've certainly been aware often enough that my ball is still moving at the bottom of the hole when I've picked it out in those circumstances.

Edited by Colin L, 11 October 2018 - 02:17 AM.


4

#5 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,136 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6832

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:18 AM

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 02:13 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 October 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostAugster, on 10 October 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.

IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I'm hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.
Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.

Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.

Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. :)

I don't get what you mean by "[pulling] that crap again" and "gamesmanship".    Have you misunderstood the Decision which actually says that taking a ball out of the hole before it is motionless is permitted`?

It's only going to be possible when you have a tap-in close enough that you are in a position to reach into the hole before the ball stops moving, but I reckon that will be done quite frequently.  I've certainly been aware often enough that my ball is still moving at the bottom of the hole when I've picked it out in those circumstances.
Colin, respectfully, I meant in 2019. As Sawgrass noted there does not appear to be anything in the new rules stating the same as the current decision noted above. So yes, less that decision a player could try to make the argument on January 1 that the ball was not holed because it had not come to rest.

Edit-of referring to current rules I was replying to a post saying he never hears of that decision having to be mentioned. My comment was that the type of player that would try to use that to win a hole is likely going to just be told once the proper decision.  Any the players that would attempt to win by such means are few and far between- I hope.

Edited by Shilgy, 11 October 2018 - 10:21 AM.

TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

5

#6 Colin L

Colin L

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,796 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 195200
  • Joined: 07/28/2012
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland
  • Handicap:16.5
GolfWRX Likes : 882

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:27 AM

View PostSawgrass, on 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

16/5.5


Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?

A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)

As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly  the same thing as the old Definition.  I'm not understanding what more is needed.

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"
The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.
However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

Edited by Colin L, 11 October 2018 - 04:32 PM.


6

#7 sdandrea

sdandrea

    Steve

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,625 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 117468
  • Joined: 11/14/2010
  • Location:Fredericksburg, VA & Hernando FL
  • Handicap:11
  • Ebay ID:sdan6017
GolfWRX Likes : 1454

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:28 AM

I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving.  Maybe it's my age.  I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
TM R9 10.5*
TM RBZ 9w
NIke CPR Wood 26*
Maltby DBM Grafalloy Pro Launch Axis  7-GW
Maltby Mid Sole 54*
Scotty Fastback

  
"Never buy a putter until you've had a chance to throw it"

7

#8 Colin L

Colin L

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,796 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 195200
  • Joined: 07/28/2012
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland
  • Handicap:16.5
GolfWRX Likes : 882

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:31 AM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 10:18 AM, said:

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 02:13 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 10 October 2018 - 06:58 PM, said:

View PostAugster, on 10 October 2018 - 06:44 PM, said:

They likely got rid of that decision/interpretation because it never ever happened to anyone ever.

IMO there were way too many virtual hypotheticals in the old rules. I'm hoping they shave them away in the new. I think they already have too many interpretations in the new rules.
Or it "never happened to anyone ever" because those that tried to call that once were shown the decision and did not pull that crap again.

Sometimes those that wish to play by the rules need to be protected by "gamesmanship" of this type.

Edit, pull that in my group in 2019 and be sent to the nearest no play zone. :)

I don't get what you mean by "[pulling] that crap again" and "gamesmanship". Have you misunderstood the Decision which actually says that taking a ball out of the hole before it is motionless is permitted`?

It's only going to be possible when you have a tap-in close enough that you are in a position to reach into the hole before the ball stops moving, but I reckon that will be done quite frequently.  I've certainly been aware often enough that my ball is still moving at the bottom of the hole when I've picked it out in those circumstances.
Colin, respectfully, I meant in 2019. As Sawgrass noted there does not appear to be anything in the new rules stating the same as the current decision noted above. So yes, less that decision a player could try to make the argument on January 1 that the ball was not holed because it had not come to rest.

Edit-of referring to current rules I was replying to a post saying he never hears of that decision having to be mentioned. My comment was that the type of player that would try to use that to win a hole is likely going to just be told once the proper decision.  Any the players that would attempt to win by such means are few and far between- I hope.

I get it now!   But no worries, the part of the  Definition of holed quoted above covers lifting the ball out of the hole before it is completely at rest.

8

#9 jlbos83

jlbos83

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 73472
  • Joined: 01/22/2009
  • Location:Sahuarita, AZ
GolfWRX Likes : 265

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:49 AM

I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out.  ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.)  So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a  position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed".  I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement.  Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.
Jeff, an Arizona hacker

9

#10 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,910 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 6258

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:50 AM

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

16/5.5


Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?

A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)

As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly  the same thing exactly as the old Definition.  I'm not understanding what more is needed.

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"
The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.
However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

This is exactly what I needed.  I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules!  So thank you.

To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition.  I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.

I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#11 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,136 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6832

Posted 11 October 2018 - 10:59 AM

View PostSawgrass, on 11 October 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

    16/5.5


    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?

A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)

As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly  the same thing exactly as the old Definition.  I'm not understanding what more is needed.

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"
The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.
However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

This is exactly what I needed.  I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules!  So thank you.

To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition.  I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.

I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.
After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.

Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.
TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

11

#12 SNIPERBBB

SNIPERBBB

    Hit Ball Hard

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,784 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 79142
  • Joined: 04/04/2009
  • Location:SE Ohio
  • Handicap:6
GolfWRX Likes : 502

Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:00 AM

View Postjlbos83, on 11 October 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out.  ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.)  So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a  position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed".  I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement.  Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.

You're assuming all holes on the course are properly seated at the correct depth.  Some days at our course, it's a good thing for the grounds crew they are gone before the first rounds are done or they'd get a few verbal lashings.

Edited by SNIPERBBB, 11 October 2018 - 11:08 AM.

2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
TM r15 3 wood
Adams Idea Pro 2h/4h
Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-GW
Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
Vokey SM7 58* M Grind

12

#13 x-out

x-out

    Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 404208
  • Joined: 11/28/2015
  • Location:Minnesota
  • Handicap:11
GolfWRX Likes : 15

Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:41 AM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 11 October 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

16/5.5


Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?

A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)

As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly  the same thing exactly as the old Definition.  I'm not understanding what more is needed.

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"
The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.
However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

This is exactly what I needed.  I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules!  So thank you.

To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition.  I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.

I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.
After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.

Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.

https://ncga.org/wp-...-2018-Draft.pdf

Scroll down to find under "Definitions" heading

13

#14 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,910 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 6258

Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:48 AM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 11 October 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

16/5.5


Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?

A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)

As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly  the same thing exactly as the old Definition.  I'm not understanding what more is needed.

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"
The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.
However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

This is exactly what I needed.  I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules!  So thank you.

To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition.  I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.

I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.
After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.

Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.
You're having the same trouble I did.  If you go to the new Rules on the USGA website, then access the Defintions section, then hit the "interpetations" tab at the top, interpretations for the Definitions appear (unlike before).

14

#15 LeoLeo99

LeoLeo99

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,335 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 326383
  • Joined: 07/12/2014
GolfWRX Likes : 2077

Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:56 AM

View Postjlbos83, on 11 October 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out.  ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.)  So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a  position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed".  I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement.  Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.

I had a ball bounce out on me almost 30 years ago.  3 ft birdie putt.  Hit it dead center and "perfect" speed.  Ball hit the bottom of the cup and bounced out.   I couldn't believe it.


15

#16 Golfer4Life

Golfer4Life

    El Troll Slayer! Ol, ol, ol!

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 1,316 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 41635
  • Joined: 11/01/2007
  • Location:Lake Placid, N.Y. Whiteface G.C.
  • Ebay ID:hrfdez1966
GolfWRX Likes : 547

Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:58 AM

Excellent reading.  But, you have to love how the USGA and the R&A are making golf so much more enjoyable and simple, lol....
PXG Derangement Syndrome, it is real.......

Equipment:

A bag full of PXGs
SC 009

Check your Ego at the Club House and Play the Right Tees

16

#17 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,136 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6832

Posted 11 October 2018 - 12:13 PM

View PostSawgrass, on 11 October 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 11 October 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

View PostSawgrass, on 10 October 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

Currently, the Definition of "Holed" says the ball must be at rest, and (but?) Decision 16/5.5 says it's okay if it's still rattling around at the bottom when you extract it -- it's still holed.

    16/5.5


    Player Holes Short Putt and Allegedly Removes Ball from Hole Before It Is at Rest


Q.A player strikes a short putt into the hole and removes the ball from the hole. His opponent or a fellow-competitor claims he heard the ball bouncing in the bottom of the hole-liner at the time the player was removing the ball from the hole, and therefore the ball cannot be considered holed in view of the Definition of "Holed" which states: "A ball is holed when it is at rest within the circumference of the hole ...". What is the ruling?

A.The ball is holed. The words "at rest" are in the Definition of "Holed" to make it clear that if a ball falls below the lip and thereafter bounces out, it is not holed.


Next year's Definition says basically the same thing.  But when I looked at new Rule 13 (Putting Green) I can find nothing in the Rules nor Interpretations discussing this issue.

Maybe it's not there anymore, maybe I'm missing it there, maybe it's somewhere else.  Can anyone help me with that?

(As a side note, I'm anxious that things I "know" to be true will no longer be true.  Or at the very least harder to prove true.)

As you (nearly) say, the new Definition tells us exactly  the same thing exactly as the old Definition.  I'm not understanding what more is needed.

Interpretation Holed/2 - Ball Is Considered Holed Even Though It Is Not "At Rest"
The words "at rest" in the definition of holed are used to make it clear that if a ball falls into the hole and bounces out, it is not holed.
However, if a player removes a ball from the hole that is still moving (such as circling or bouncing in the bottom of the hole), it is considered holed despite the ball not having come to rest in the hole.

This is exactly what I needed.  I did not realize that the interpretations exteded to the definitions section in the 2019 Rules!  So thank you.

To explain myself better, the new Definition of holed does not do this, only the interpretation off that Definition.  I had looked through the interpretations surrounding new Rule 13 (analogous to current R16 where the related Decision resides) and of course found nothing.

I have a printed copy of the Players Edition and ROG for the new Rules, perhaps your discovery will be more obvious in the printed edition of the Interpretations book when it comes out.
After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.

Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.
You're having the same trouble I did.  If you go to the new Rules on the USGA website, then access the Defintions section, then hit the "interpetations" tab at the top, interpretations for the Definitions appear (unlike before).
Thanks to all of you.
TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

17

#18 Newby

Newby

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,915 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93129
  • Joined: 08/28/2009
  • Location:England
GolfWRX Likes : 1618

Posted 11 October 2018 - 12:51 PM

View Postjlbos83, on 11 October 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

.  Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.

From 2019.
13.2c Ball Resting against Flagstick in Hole.

If any part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green, the ball is treated as holed even if the entire ball is not below the surface.

If no part of the ball is in the hole below the surface of the putting green:
 The ball is not holed and must be played as it lies.
 If the flagstick is removed and the ball moves (whether it falls into the hole or moves away from the hole), there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced on the lip of the hole (see Rule 14.2).

Edited by Newby, 11 October 2018 - 12:54 PM.


18

#19 jlbos83

jlbos83

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 73472
  • Joined: 01/22/2009
  • Location:Sahuarita, AZ
GolfWRX Likes : 265

Posted 11 October 2018 - 12:59 PM

I had not seen that!  It's good to take careful removal of the flagstick out of the equation.  This one is common sense, the ball isn't going to jump out of the hole on its own!  I think they had to do this, to reduce the possibility of damage to the hole as people tried to make sure they didn't pop the ball out.
Jeff, an Arizona hacker

19

#20 Colin L

Colin L

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,796 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 195200
  • Joined: 07/28/2012
  • Location:Edinburgh, Scotland
  • Handicap:16.5
GolfWRX Likes : 882

Posted 11 October 2018 - 04:45 PM

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.

Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.

In the Official Rules of Golf on the R&A website
https://www.randa.or...e-rules-of-golf
The tabs along the top link to the full  Rules, the Player's Edition, Definitions, Interpretations, Committee Procedures and Rules for Players with disabilities.
The bit I quoted is part of the Definition of Holed which you'll find here:
https://www.randa.or...ns#definition-H

On the USGA site, it is under Holed in the Interpretations
http://www.usga.org/...pretations.html

Edited by Colin L, 11 October 2018 - 04:46 PM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#21 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,136 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:2.6
GolfWRX Likes : 6832

Posted 11 October 2018 - 06:08 PM

View PostColin L, on 11 October 2018 - 04:45 PM, said:

View PostShilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

After reading your op I went through the 2019 rules and definitions and did not see the gist of Colin's post.

Colin, please tell where you found this in the 2019 version.

In the Official Rules of Golf on the R&A website
https://www.randa.or...e-rules-of-golf
The tabs along the top link to the full  Rules, the Player's Edition, Definitions, Interpretations, Committee Procedures and Rules for Players with disabilities.
The bit I quoted is part of the Definition of Holed which you'll find here:
https://www.randa.or...ns#definition-H

On the USGA site, it is under Holed in the Interpretations
http://www.usga.org/...pretations.html
Yep, earlier post showed Sawgrass and I were blind. :)

At least I'm in good company.
TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester/ Toulon Rochester

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

21

#22 lchang

lchang

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 486 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 53955
  • Joined: 04/17/2008
  • Location:San Carlos, CA
  • Handicap:11
GolfWRX Likes : 285

Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:57 PM

View PostLeoLeo99, on 11 October 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

View Postjlbos83, on 11 October 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out.  ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.)  So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a  position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed".  I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement.  Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.

I had a ball bounce out on me almost 30 years ago.  3 ft birdie putt.  Hit it dead center and "perfect" speed.  Ball hit the bottom of the cup and bounced out.   I couldn't believe it.

https://youtu.be/6qQs6yokUVk

22

#23 Newby

Newby

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,915 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 93129
  • Joined: 08/28/2009
  • Location:England
GolfWRX Likes : 1618

Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:49 AM

That ball wasn't even below the surface.

23

#24 Bushwood Country Club

Bushwood Country Club

    Bushwood Country Club

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 759 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 108065
  • Joined: 05/16/2010
  • Handicap:8.8
  • Ebay ID:mtlaurel89
GolfWRX Likes : 275

Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:06 AM

View Postsdandrea, on 11 October 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving.  Maybe it's my age.  I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
THIS
  • TaylorMade M3, HZRDUS Yellow 6.0
  • Callaway Rogue 3 Wood, HZRDUS red, 6.0
  • Callaway Rogue 5 Wood, HZRDUS red, 6.0
  • Callaway Rogue Hybrid 4/21, Graphite Design AD-DI 85
  • Titleist AP3 5,6 , Project X LZ 6.0  
  • Titleist AP2 7-9, Project X LZ 6.0   
  • Vokey SM6 46/8F, 50/12F, 54/10S, 60/12D Project X LZ 6.0
  • Scotty Cameron Delmar

24

#25 sui generis

sui generis

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,450 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 132389
  • Joined: 07/05/2011
  • Location:Asheville
GolfWRX Likes : 2314

Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:18 AM

View Postsdandrea, on 11 October 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving.  Maybe it's my age.  I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.

Indeed, since I see fewer than one in ten even bother to hole out. They snatch it up from three feet with that suction cup thing on the end of their putter grip. ;)

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

25

#26 Sawgrass

Sawgrass

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,910 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 83736
  • Joined: 05/24/2009
  • Location:Stamford, Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 6258

Posted 12 October 2018 - 09:23 AM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 12 October 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

View Postsdandrea, on 11 October 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving.  Maybe it's my age.  I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
THIS
I fairly frequently pick up the ball out of the cup while it is still slowly bouncing around.  Short putts and tap-ins.  I'm surprised this doesn't happen to you, perhaps it's the particular material that the course uses to line the bottom of the cup.

26

#27 jlbos83

jlbos83

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 73472
  • Joined: 01/22/2009
  • Location:Sahuarita, AZ
GolfWRX Likes : 265

Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:04 AM

View PostLeoLeo99, on 11 October 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

View Postjlbos83, on 11 October 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

I would say that if a ball is going to bounce out of the hole, it's going to have to be on some type of hole out, a ball falling into the hole from the level of the green does not have the energy to go to the bottom of the hole, and then all the way out.  ( This is excluding lip-outs, which don't visit the bottom of the hole.)  So I think any reasonable person would conclude that if a player is in a  position to retrieve the ball from the hole, any chance that it was bouncing out has most certainly passed, and the ball can be considered "holed".  I guess in a way the definition is flawed, "at rest' is clearly not actually part of the requirement.  Obviously, care still must be taken when the ball is wedged against the flagstick, which will almost certainly happen more next year.

I had a ball bounce out on me almost 30 years ago.  3 ft birdie putt.  Hit it dead center and "perfect" speed.  Ball hit the bottom of the cup and bounced out.   I couldn't believe it.
I have trouble believing it too!  If it gets to the bottom of the hole with only the energy it has from falling in the hole, physics would say it cannot bounce farther up than it did down!  I'm not saying you didn't see it, or course, but the energy to get back out of the hole came from somewhere!  I probably would have spent the rest of the round, or maybe the next thirty year puzzling about it!
Jeff, an Arizona hacker

27

#28 jlbos83

jlbos83

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 73472
  • Joined: 01/22/2009
  • Location:Sahuarita, AZ
GolfWRX Likes : 265

Posted 12 October 2018 - 10:05 AM

View PostSawgrass, on 12 October 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 12 October 2018 - 07:06 AM, said:

View Postsdandrea, on 11 October 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

I can't even image being able to bend over and get my hand on a ball before it stops moving.  Maybe it's my age.  I would think that if a ball is going to bounce out of the cup, it would happen before a player could touch it. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
THIS
I fairly frequently pick up the ball out of the cup while it is still slowly bouncing around.  Short putts and tap-ins.  I'm surprised this doesn't happen to you, perhaps it's the particular material that the course uses to line the bottom of the cup.
Still jiggling around, of course!  Though certainly not with intent to vacate the hole!
Jeff, an Arizona hacker

28



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors