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Stability Putter Shaft...worth the dough


51 replies to this topic

#31 Stuart G.

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 11:46 AM

View PostBar_Stroll, on 10 October 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

But the better question (and un-answered IMO) is how much does the torque of the shaft actually influence the face rotation from an off center impact - during the time the ball is still in contact with the face? We're pretty sure it doesn't noticeably help for the full swing - but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't for the putter.   The only actual data I saw from the BGT folks (the graph of heel and toe velocity) and it only showed differences 'long' after impact and after the ball is gone.

Wouldn't the graph by BGT, whether after or during contact, indicate less stability after being hit from oscillation mean less energy transferred into the ball during? Also, the oscillations on the steel shaft graph go from 15 to 25 frames past initial impact taken at 2500 frames/sec. or between .006 - .01 seconds from initial impact.

Not really.  The amount of deformation can amplify the consequences of instability.  So just because there is noticeable instability at the higher deformation doesn't tell us how much there was at lower deformation amounts.  

And impact from a full swing only lasts ~0.004 sec.  I haven't seen any data about how long it lasts with a putter stroke - but considering there is significantly less compression of the ball, I would not think it would be significantly longer.

Edited by Stuart G., 10 October 2018 - 11:46 AM.


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#32 brockgolf44

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:02 PM

View Postdbdors, on 08 October 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

View PostSwingMan, on 08 October 2018 - 08:15 AM, said:

Have one, need rounds. But something is different for the better -

View PostFindog88, on 08 October 2018 - 06:27 PM, said:

I just put one of these in my putter.

How did you get the shaft?  Did you send it in like they recommend?  Or did you have a dealer install.  How long did it take?

I just had local club champion order it for me and then dropped my putter off.  picked up next day
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#33 brockgolf44

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:05 PM

View PostHoward Jones, on 08 October 2018 - 11:34 PM, said:

i dont know that shaft at all, but putter shafts is already the stiffest there is, many of them is stiffer than DG Tour X7 Wedge so i have a problem to see that a putter the way we use it, should be influenced for the better by going even stronger, but maybe there is something to get if the putter shaft you play is to the softer side?. Putter balance is more important in my book then shaft flex is, but what do i know? i have not tried that shaft, i play UST Frequency filtered and is very happy with it.

Im with ya.  I saw an article on this when it first came out and thought it was dumb.  But when I tried it was immediate difference.  I did not explain the torque/flex properly in my post.  there is a much more "scientific/engineer-y" explanation of the the shaft does in terms of stability.

i wouldnt say it feels stiffer...it just feels solid
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#34 brockgolf44

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:08 PM

View PostDFS PFD, on 09 October 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

View PostZ1ggy16, on 09 October 2018 - 05:46 PM, said:

View Post4rheel, on 09 October 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

But they don't have that issue with their drivers or irons.

Because everybody has a OEM name on their driver and iron shafts. If one or two guys.. or 20, suddenly have STABILITY instead of their "brand-less" putter shaft, it's going to draw attention away from the actual club maker.

Nobody cares if X PGA guy has a TPT driver shaft... but if he's in some exotic never before seen putter shaft, it could cause some kind of stir. Instead of "oh guy X is in a new Scotty GSS this year" it's, "Ohhhhh guy X has  the stability shaft??? I'm going to buy one tomorrow".
Actually it's probably because it may not make a measurable difference for them, and if they're the best in the world at putting, maybe they don't need a special shaft to get better. But I'm sure some guys will use it with time, like BAD using a Matrix putter shaft. More $$$$$ for essentially nothing for a recreational golfer.

I was told that alot of guys have been testing them and there are some that are putting them in play (dont remember the names).  Supposedly Tom Watson is using it...but what does that guy know :)
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#35 Bar_Stroll

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:25 PM

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View PostBar_Stroll, on 10 October 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

But the better question (and un-answered IMO) is how much does the torque of the shaft actually influence the face rotation from an off center impact - during the time the ball is still in contact with the face? We're pretty sure it doesn't noticeably help for the full swing - but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't for the putter.   The only actual data I saw from the BGT folks (the graph of heel and toe velocity) and it only showed differences 'long' after impact and after the ball is gone.

Wouldn't the graph by BGT, whether after or during contact, indicate less stability after being hit from oscillation mean less energy transferred into the ball during? Also, the oscillations on the steel shaft graph go from 15 to 25 frames past initial impact taken at 2500 frames/sec. or between .006 - .01 seconds from initial impact.

Not really.  The amount of deformation can amplify the consequences of instability.  So just because there is noticeable instability at the higher deformation doesn't tell us how much there was at lower deformation amounts.  

And impact from a full swing only lasts ~0.004 sec.  I haven't seen any data about how long it lasts with a putter stroke - but considering there is significantly less compression of the ball, I would not think it would be significantly longer.

I tried searching for any data of how long the ball stays on a putter face but couldn't find anything. Ian also said with a driver the ball face contact is .004 sec and also mentioned that the putter contact was longer than driver but did not quantify it.

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#36 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 01:55 PM

$200 putter shaft?  

10 X’s the price of a “standard” $20 putter shaft??  

So that’s like a $2000 driver shaft versus a “standard” $200 driver shaft.  

What’s that old saying?....when pigs fly.
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#37 dbdors

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 04:58 PM

I think BGT would say that you have to compare apples to apples.

Its like a $200 graphite driver shaft compared to a TT Steel Driver shaft at $21  https://www.golfgalaxy.com/p/true-temper-dynamic-gold-tapered-steel-iron-shafts-pajhjcilnnehgcnh/pajhjcilnnehgcnh?uniqueID=395458

Or one of these: https://www.golfgala...uniqueID=391420

I think the point they are trying to make is we don't use steel in drivers in more, so why you putter.  Not arguing for or against, just what I think they think.  They have a lot of short YouTube videos that seem to say that IMO.

Edited by dbdors, 10 October 2018 - 05:03 PM.


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#38 brockgolf44

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 05:43 PM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 10 October 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

$200 putter shaft?  

10 X’s the price of a “standard” $20 putter shaft??  

So that’s like a $2000 driver shaft versus a “standard” $200 driver shaft.  

What’s that old saying?....when pigs fly.

Here...I fixed it for you

$500 smart phone?  

10 X’s the price of a “standard” $50 cellular phone??  

So that’s like a $1000 Blackberry versus a “standard” $100 Blackberry.  

What’s that old saying?.... :busted2:
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#39 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:49 PM

View Postbrockgolf44, on 10 October 2018 - 05:43 PM, said:

View PostJagpilotohio, on 10 October 2018 - 01:55 PM, said:

$200 putter shaft?  

10 X’s the price of a “standard” $20 putter shaft??  

So that’s like a $2000 driver shaft versus a “standard” $200 driver shaft.  

What’s that old saying?....when pigs fly.

Here...I fixed it for you

$500 smart phone?  

10 X’s the price of a “standard” $50 cellular phone??  

So that’s like a $1000 Blackberry versus a “standard” $100 Blackberry.  

What’s that old saying?.... :busted2:

I actually have no idea what you are trying to say.

I’m simply saying that no putter shaft is “worth”  $200.....to me.

If anyone out there thinks it has some sort of magical qualities and truly believes it will help their putting, then perhaps it is “wotth” $200 to them.

Having essentially zero torque and being stiff as a railroad tie doesn’t sound the slightest bit appealing to me.

Of course, I also would never buy $4 dollar golf balls or  $1500  putters or $2500 sets of irons or “tour issue” $500 driver heads.
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#40 A.Princey

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 11:40 AM

View Postdbdors, on 10 October 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

I think BGT would say that you have to compare apples to apples.

Its like a $200 graphite driver shaft compared to a TT Steel Driver shaft at $21  https://www.golfgalaxy.com/p/true-temper-dynamic-gold-tapered-steel-iron-shafts-pajhjcilnnehgcnh/pajhjcilnnehgcnh?uniqueID=395458

Or one of these: https://www.golfgala...uniqueID=391420

I think the point they are trying to make is we don't use steel in drivers in more, so why you putter.  Not arguing for or against, just what I think they think.  They have a lot of short YouTube videos that seem to say that IMO.

We're also not playing 45" putters. Time to tell Tiger his X100s in irons are obsolete as well...haha

This is one of those niche items that will be popular for some, some OEM may even make a putter line or two with them, but they'll never corner the market with it.

I wouldn't be surprised if some folks switch back to standard shafts due to distance control issues. Sorry for planting that one in anybody's head.

Edited by A.Princey, 11 October 2018 - 11:47 AM.

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#41 wkuo3

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 07:42 AM

Com'on  guys, how hard do you swing a putter to notice a "lag" in the putter shaft ?  

I was wondering when someone will come out with an extra ordinarily expensive putter shaft since we're already used to the price range for the driver shafts.
Barney Adams is keen on the new ways of moving golf equipment and this new shaft may be the next big thing in the industry.  I can't say yea or nay since I have not had a chance to try this shaft .  With the price tag, unless someone I know wish to try it, there is very little chance I would have the opportunity to try it in the near future.

One has to ask, how many of us play the greens conditioned like the PGA tournament events ?   The golf courses I play often will be quite different than those pristine conditioned, maybe a few weeks out of the season will be close but they can't keep the greens rolled and trimmed year round conditioned like the tournament weeks.

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#42 Bar_Stroll

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 12:38 PM

A putter face open or closed 2* will cause a 5' putt to miss the hole. 1* at 8', .5* at 15'. You ask how do hard do you swing a putter to notice lag? I ask do you think you can tell me you can feel how little movement in a shaft it takes to put your putter out of square .5* or 1* or 2*? Or that you can feel .5* in any way shape or form?

Again, I'm not saying this thing works, I've not tested it. But I can tell you I know how small the margin for error is to miss a putt and also know how much flex there is a my standard putter shaft with a 360 gram head. The theory is sound.
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#43 dbdors

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 01:58 PM

I think some one asked how this is different from a graphite iron shaft?  I guess I would like to know the same.  Why not get the stiffest graphite iron shaft.  

For one thing its designed to work single and double bend putter with that steel section at the bottom, but for straight putters when not get a stiff graphite iron?  Or even the Accra Putter shafts or some other brand.

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#44 wkuo3

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 04:13 PM

View PostBar_Stroll, on 12 October 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

A putter face open or closed 2* will cause a 5' putt to miss the hole. 1* at 8', .5* at 15'. You ask how do hard do you swing a putter to notice lag? I ask do you think you can tell me you can feel how little movement in a shaft it takes to put your putter out of square .5* or 1* or 2*? Or that you can feel .5* in any way shape or form?

Again, I'm not saying this thing works, I've not tested it. But I can tell you I know how small the margin for error is to miss a putt and also know how much flex there is a my standard putter shaft with a 360 gram head. The theory is sound.

I'll reserve my opinion since I had not had a chance to try this "new" putter shaft.
As with any other tool, if the user thinks the tool is the best for his skill then, it'll be priceless.  What's $200 comparing to priceless.

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#45 BackNineCollapse

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 04:33 PM

View Postdbdors, on 12 October 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

I think some one asked how this is different from a graphite iron shaft?  I guess I would like to know the same.  Why not get the stiffest graphite iron shaft.  

For one thing its designed to work single and double bend putter with that steel section at the bottom, but for straight putters when not get a stiff graphite iron?  Or even the Accra Putter shafts or some other brand.

The Stability shaft is much, much stiffer than any graphite iron shaft.  As mentioned above, the theory is valid.  This shaft is considerably stiffer, and deforms a lot less (in all areas, longitudinally and rotationally) during the stroke and at impact.  The difference in consistency is measurable, whether that difference is meaningful, and even more importantly cost effective, will depend on the person.  In the fittings in our database, we're seeing high handicappers improve between 1.5-3 putts per round, low handicappers 1.0-1.5, and tour level players ~0.5-1 (predicted SGP based on directional consistency...this assumes no change in distance accuracy, which seems to be true, but we do not have the data on longer putts to say for sure).  That's on average, it does nothing for some people (those few who produce near perfect impact every time, and those who vary so much the shaft is lost in the noise), and even more for others.

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#46 A.Princey

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:42 PM

All this talk about degrees of rotation and shaft stiffness, but how does it FEEL???? If it's not buttery smooth when you strike a pure putt I don't want any part in it.

Edited by A.Princey, 12 October 2018 - 05:43 PM.

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#47 Findog88

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 06:34 PM

View PostA.Princey, on 12 October 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

All this talk about degrees of rotation and shaft stiffness, but how does it FEEL???? If it's not buttery smooth when you strike a pure putt I don't want any part in it.

A putt struck solidly feels like a putt struck solidly. I didnít feel any difference in my putter since changing the shaft. So from that standpoint I donít think youíll notice a difference. It does seem like I can tell the mishits more. If that makes sense. I can feel the slight mishits more, but the ball rolls exactly the same as the perfectly struck putts.

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#48 SubaruWRX

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 08:32 PM

How much can this shaft help with lag & torque in comparison to how much some of these soft grips may add to it? Winn? Superstroke? Others?

If one really needs so much stability and low torque, why not a rock hard carbon fiber grip too? Hell, my hands alone are soft enough to cause increased torque. Grip your putter with your normal grip and have someone try to twist the putter head. Itís easy to move unless you squeeze the hell out of it, which nobody does when putting.
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#49 SlamMan

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 11:28 PM

I'd really like to see My Golf Spy test it with a number of golfers. It sounds great in theory and I wouldn't be surprised if it does hole more putts but is it 2-3 strokes gained per round or more like 0.02-0.03 strokes?

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#50 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 12:05 AM

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View PostBar_Stroll, on 10 October 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

But the better question (and un-answered IMO) is how much does the torque of the shaft actually influence the face rotation from an off center impact - during the time the ball is still in contact with the face? We're pretty sure it doesn't noticeably help for the full swing - but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't for the putter.   The only actual data I saw from the BGT folks (the graph of heel and toe velocity) and it only showed differences 'long' after impact and after the ball is gone.

Wouldn't the graph by BGT, whether after or during contact, indicate less stability after being hit from oscillation mean less energy transferred into the ball during? Also, the oscillations on the steel shaft graph go from 15 to 25 frames past initial impact taken at 2500 frames/sec. or between .006 - .01 seconds from initial impact.

Not really.  The amount of deformation can amplify the consequences of instability.  So just because there is noticeable instability at the higher deformation doesn't tell us how much there was at lower deformation amounts.  

And impact from a full swing only lasts ~0.004 sec.  I haven't seen any data about how long it lasts with a putter stroke - but considering there is significantly less compression of the ball, I would not think it would be significantly longer.
I think it is ~0.0004 sec isn't it? Not trying to be a beatch, but just making sure everyone is on the same page.

Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
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#51 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 04:10 AM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 13 October 2018 - 12:05 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 11:46 AM, said:

View PostBar_Stroll, on 10 October 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 10 October 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

But the better question (and un-answered IMO) is how much does the torque of the shaft actually influence the face rotation from an off center impact - during the time the ball is still in contact with the face? We're pretty sure it doesn't noticeably help for the full swing - but that doesn't necessarily mean it can't for the putter.   The only actual data I saw from the BGT folks (the graph of heel and toe velocity) and it only showed differences 'long' after impact and after the ball is gone.

Wouldn't the graph by BGT, whether after or during contact, indicate less stability after being hit from oscillation mean less energy transferred into the ball during? Also, the oscillations on the steel shaft graph go from 15 to 25 frames past initial impact taken at 2500 frames/sec. or between .006 - .01 seconds from initial impact.

Not really.  The amount of deformation can amplify the consequences of instability.  So just because there is noticeable instability at the higher deformation doesn't tell us how much there was at lower deformation amounts.  

And impact from a full swing only lasts ~0.004 sec.  I haven't seen any data about how long it lasts with a putter stroke - but considering there is significantly less compression of the ball, I would not think it would be significantly longer.
I think it is ~0.0004 sec isn't it? Not trying to be a beatch, but just making sure everyone is on the same page.

No worries. Thanks for the catch. Yes I was rushing and forgot a zero.   ~0.4 ms.

View PostSubaruWRX, on 12 October 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

How much can this shaft help with lag & torque in comparison to how much some of these soft grips may add to it? Winn? Superstroke? Others?

If one really needs so much stability and low torque, why not a rock hard carbon fiber grip too? Hell, my hands alone are soft enough to cause increased torque. Grip your putter with your normal grip and have someone try to twist the putter head. It's easy to move unless you squeeze the hell out of it, which nobody does when putting.

It's a good question but not necessarily a concern.   The torsional deformation doesn't occur instantaneously over the full length of the shaft. It takes time to travel up the shaft to the point of the grip. google "slinky pressure wave" for some vids of people demonstrating this type of phenomenon.  It's not exactly the same but some of the general concepts are similar.   It travels much faster in the stiffer shaft - but then the time the ball's in contact with the face is very small so it still can be a factor.   For a full swing (driver), I've seen calculations that show that the ball is gone by the time it's traveled between 1-2 feet up the shaft (if memory serves closer to 1' to 1.5'). But I've seen no calcs for a putter swing and impact - so can't say either way how different it would be.

Edited by Stuart G., 13 October 2018 - 04:24 AM.


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#52 A.Princey

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Posted 13 October 2018 - 02:40 PM

How heavy is this stability shaft?
Ping G 10.5*, Fuji Pro 63-R 42.75"
'16 M1 3w HL 17*, Xcon 7-S(untipped) 41"
Ping Rapture 3i, AWT-R
Ping G25 4-G, DG-R400
Vokey 56(57*), 60(63*) DG-R400
Byron Morgan 615SS 32.5"(or any of 10 other putters...)

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