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If "The difference between a Tour pro and a scratch is 15 strokes" then....

Tour Tour vs. Scratch How good is a scratch Joes vs Pros

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#31 MtlJeff

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:21 PM

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View Postjt2gt, on 08 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.


This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male.  It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).

It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)

But aren't scores , scores at the end of the day?

We know pros are better in terms of actual game (not just mental) but they are only better by a measurable amount. Their ability to turn trouble into birdies and lack of significant flaws still has a numeric value. Their confidence and escape shots can't have them making 0's on holes.

So they're better than scratch players for all those reasons....but a champions tour player is better by what? 5 shots?

I mean these are things we CAN quantify is my point

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#32 farmer

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:30 PM

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View Postjt2gt, on 08 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.


This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male.  It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).

It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)
Excellent, Obee.  I've read a thousand times about the mental difference, but have always thought it was more than mental.  Coming from a guy who's been inside the ropes (so to speak) I'm happy to have my belief confirmed.

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#33 Obee

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:44 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 08 October 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View Postjt2gt, on 08 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.


This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male.  It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).

It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)

But aren't scores , scores at the end of the day?

We know pros are better in terms of actual game (not just mental) but they are only better by a measurable amount. Their ability to turn trouble into birdies and lack of significant flaws still has a numeric value. Their confidence and escape shots can't have them making 0's on holes.

So they're better than scratch players for all those reasons....but a champions tour player is better by what? 5 shots?

I mean these are things we CAN quantify is my point

Of course. I would say: 3 - 5 shots on an "easy" course (120 - 130ish slope), but up to 6 or seven, the tougher the course gets (and slope actually accounts for this).

Edited by Obee, 08 October 2018 - 05:59 PM.

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#34 Obee

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 05:59 PM

View Postfarmer, on 08 October 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

View Postjt2gt, on 08 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostObee, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

The easier the course (and Victoria is only 6517, 71.3/129), the more bunched the scores are and the better chance a scratch or below am has of beating a pro. The tougher the course, the more it will test ALL of one's game, and that's where the pros really separate themselves from good ams.


This quote sums up most of the discussions I have seen on WRX regardin pros vs. ams...even the LPGA pro vs scratch male.  It really is the mental aspect that separates...Ive seen pros get out of mentally challenging situations without issue and even birdies where a good am would be bogie or worse (example -- saw Toms par from the rocks in a creek at Firestone and even had a putt for birdie).

It's actually a LOT more than just the mental. Their ball-striking is simply significantly superior on a day-in-day-out basis. There are solid scratch players who do one or two things as well or close to as well as a Champions Tour pro (putting, driving, short game, mental game), but none of them has the complete game that the pros have. And none of them have the consistency of strike that the pros have, or they'd be playing professionally and making a living. :-)
Excellent, Obee.  I've read a thousand times about the mental difference, but have always thought it was more than mental.  Coming from a guy who's been inside the ropes (so to speak) I'm happy to have my belief confirmed.

It's hard to compare a generic "scratch am" to a generic Tour pro (Champions or regular)

There are significant differences in ability in every area of the game for both amateurs and pros.

Four instance: I play with plenty of scratch or slightly below amateurs who absolutely strike the ball as well as some tour pros from 90 to 180 yards.

The catch, though is that they usually have One or more "fatal flaws," either: they are very poor drivers of the ball, and/or are horrible putter's, and/or theirshort games have huge holes in them, and/or they fold under pressure.

I play with a guy who is 60 years old who has played in 11 USGA championships. He strikes the ball like a robot and his short game is nails. He's not a great putter, but not bad, either (rarely 3-putts). Pernice and Goydos both hit it 30 - 40 past him. That many yards is tough to give up....

He never turned professional, but he missed the cut by one shot in a web.com event as an am way back when.

I tell you what, he absolutely would not embarrass himself if he played on the Champions tour right now. He would shoot lots of scores  between 70 and 74. Lots and lots of them.

Edited by Obee, 08 October 2018 - 06:05 PM.

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#35 Railroading13

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 06:41 PM

It's not 15 strokes that's for damn sure, maybe 15 strokes over a 4 day period

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#36 Frostfield

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 07:34 PM

The impressive thing about pros is their “reverse handicap “.  Their worst 10 scores are usually only 3-4 worse than their best.  Very few blowups.

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#37 Obee

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 09:58 AM

View PostShutSteepStuck, on 08 October 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

We need you to wax eloquently about Pernice's short game.

Let's hear some stories...

Obviously the guy has tons of mental grit, but how much of his ability to grind well is due to that phenomenal short game?

I would think that having a short game like his is roughly equivalent to having an ace up your sleeve. IOW, when clanking it a little bit I don't imagine he gets to worked up knowing he can scramble and STILL score.

There isn't much to say, except: You literally never think he's out of a hole. He a threat to chip-in any time from a good lie, and from a HORRIBLE lie, you are never surprised when he hits it to 3 feet. Absolutely amazing face-control with the short game. And has such a great variety of shots.
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#38 Barfolomew

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol
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#39 ShutSteepStuck

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 02:57 PM

View PostObee, on 09 October 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

View PostShutSteepStuck, on 08 October 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

We need you to wax eloquently about Pernice's short game.

Let's hear some stories...

Obviously the guy has tons of mental grit, but how much of his ability to grind well is due to that phenomenal short game?

I would think that having a short game like his is roughly equivalent to having an ace up your sleeve. IOW, when clanking it a little bit I don't imagine he gets to worked up knowing he can scramble and STILL score.

There isn't much to say, except: You literally never think he's out of a hole. He a threat to chip-in any time from a good lie, and from a HORRIBLE lie, you are never surprised when he hits it to 3 feet. Absolutely amazing face-control with the short game. And has such a great variety of shots.

How would you characterize the differences btw. Pernice grinding and that of Goydos?

Obviously both are locked in...but do they grind in different ways based on their particular strengths and weaknesses?
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#40 Obee

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 05:12 PM

View PostBarfolomew, on 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol

I've heard it bandied about over the years: The difference between a scratch golfer and a fifteen handicap is the same as the difference between a scratch and a Tour pro.

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#41 Shilgy

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 08:12 PM

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

 Barfolomew, on 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol

I've heard it bandied about over the years: The difference between a scratch golfer and a fifteen handicap is the same as the difference between a scratch and a Tour pro.
I think that phrase is meant to convey skill level more than an actual numerical value.
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#42 BNGL

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 09:02 PM

 Shilgy, on 09 October 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

 Barfolomew, on 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol

I've heard it bandied about over the years: The difference between a scratch golfer and a fifteen handicap is the same as the difference between a scratch and a Tour pro.
I think that phrase is meant to convey skill level more than an actual numerical value.

Totally agree with that...also its more of a metaphor not to be taken literally.

There is no chance the total in a regular round is 15 shots, now maybe in a 4 round tournament at a difficult tour track I could see that. Now if this was an LPGA Tour forget about it, the scratch player would wax her by 15...major sarcasm...

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#43 Catty

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 10:24 PM

I've broken 80 more times this year then Smylie K.  Does that count?

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#44 Pure745

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 10:30 PM

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

 Barfolomew, on 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol

I've heard it bandied about over the years: The difference between a scratch golfer and a fifteen handicap is the same as the difference between a scratch and a Tour pro.

Just be yourself Obee  :cheesy:
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#45 Obee

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 11:38 PM

 Pure745, on 09 October 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

 Barfolomew, on 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol

I've heard it bandied about over the years: The difference between a scratch golfer and a fifteen handicap is the same as the difference between a scratch and a Tour pro.

Just be yourself Obee  :cheesy:

If you think I'm not being me, you clearly don't know me very well!! ;-)

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#46 Hawkeye77

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:11 AM

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 11:38 PM, said:

 Pure745, on 09 October 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

 Barfolomew, on 09 October 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

Who said the difference is 15 shots?  ....some drunk guys at the golf course haha!  If I listened to those morons I would never manufacture power when I putted lol

I've heard it bandied about over the years: The difference between a scratch golfer and a fifteen handicap is the same as the difference between a scratch and a Tour pro.

Just be yourself Obee  :cheesy:

If you think I'm not being me, you clearly don't know me very well!! ;-)

LOL, you are always you!  By definition!

Anyway, leaving aside whether the comparison is anyone's favorite, the information in here is top notch and entertaining!

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#47 Obee

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 10:31 AM

 ShutSteepStuck, on 09 October 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

 Obee, on 09 October 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

 ShutSteepStuck, on 08 October 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

We need you to wax eloquently about Pernice's short game.

Let's hear some stories...

Obviously the guy has tons of mental grit, but how much of his ability to grind well is due to that phenomenal short game?

I would think that having a short game like his is roughly equivalent to having an ace up your sleeve. IOW, when clanking it a little bit I don't imagine he gets to worked up knowing he can scramble and STILL score.

There isn't much to say, except: You literally never think he's out of a hole. He a threat to chip-in any time from a good lie, and from a HORRIBLE lie, you are never surprised when he hits it to 3 feet. Absolutely amazing face-control with the short game. And has such a great variety of shots.

How would you characterize the differences btw. Pernice grinding and that of Goydos?

Obviously both are locked in...but do they grind in different ways based on their particular strengths and weaknesses?

Pernice's short game is more "flashy" than Goydos's. His technique on really tough shots where he needs to get the ball up quickly (or when the lie is difficult) is amazing. Skip to 11:45 of this video:

http://www.mytpi.com...tering_the_sand

Edited by Obee, 10 October 2018 - 10:36 AM.

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#48 Spongerob

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 11:23 AM

Depends on the course and conditions. On an easy muni with sketchy greens, a tour pro probably won't go low so it would be closer. However, put Monty in a US Open and he will find a way to shoot 75 or possibly better. However it would take an act of god for the scratch amateur to break 100 on the same track. The difference can be massive.

Edited by Spongerob, 10 October 2018 - 11:24 AM.


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#49 Obee

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 02:07 PM

 Spongerob, on 10 October 2018 - 11:23 AM, said:

Depends on the course and conditions. On an easy muni with sketchy greens, a tour pro probably won't go low so it would be closer. However, put Monty in a US Open and he will find a way to shoot 75 or possibly better. However it would take an act of god for the scratch amateur to break 100 on the same track. The difference can be massive.

We've been down this road a million times. A scratch golfer ain't shooting 100 on a U.S. Open course.

Tony Romo is, literally, a scratch golfer. Like kind of a perfect one. Guy had a couple really nice months several years ago and got his index down into the +3 range. But that's not where he lives. The guys is right at 0ish most of the time. Look up his index right now. The guy shot 84 in the U.S. Open Challenge at Torrey.

Ben Roethlisberger was a 3-handicap (he's now down to a 2 and has been as low as 0.?) when he shot an 81 at Bethpage in the U.S. Open Challenge.

Justin Timberlake's usually a 4 or so (right now he's a 4.1). He shot 88 at Bethpage in the challenge and a 98 the year before at Torrey when he was a 6ish both times.

All of these guys have indexes that are verifiable.

I just don't get where the "a scratch player couldn't break 100 on a U.S. Open course" thing comes from. It's already been proven false. Why does it persist?

And if you mean "In the actual U.S. Open," then that's just a straw man since it's impossible to verify. What we can do is have low handicap players play a U.S. Open course in U.S. Open conditions and see what they shoot. And we've done that.

The courses they play for the U.S. Open are very, very tough. But remove the hoopla and any true scratch golfer (not a vanity 'capper) can shoot 76 to 88 there pretty much over and over and over.

You're right about one thing, though: The gap does get wider the more difficult the course gets, but it ain't "Colin Montgomery shoots 75 and the scratch shoots 102." It just ain't.

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. ;-)
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#50 aliikane

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 03:55 PM

The biggest difference between pros and amateur scratch guys is skill but it is also to ability to perform skillfully under tournament pressure or under the spotlight. Most amateur scratch players would not play to their ability playing against a pro just on the intimidation factor and pressure wanting to play well.


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#51 JohnnyMIke

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 07:55 PM

From my limited experience, the bad rounds make a big difference as well: a step relative of mine scraped it around on the PGA tour for a year or two around 1980. I never, I mean, ever saw him shoot above 79 when I played with him 10-15 years later.  My younger scratch friends (like 19-21 year olds who have just gotten there) can shoot a couple below the course rating, but they can also pop an 85 on a bad day.  
My friend who is +3 and a bit older (having been scratch or better for maybe 12-15 years), was only rarely at 81-82, and posted more rounds of -3 or better (course where we used to play was 74.2/140) . My mini-tour pro friend and the very best ams will shoot around 80 on their worst tournament rounds, but are almost always at or below the course rating even on an moderately off day. Which I guess is a fancy of version of the anti-cap argument.
So, Obee, how about this: they are 4 or so shots better on an average day, and maybe 2-4 better when they are  both lights out, but 6-8 or more when both are off?
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#52 msonaglioni

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 08:24 PM

Take a look at this...

https://youtu.be/1DSlIgha3KU

I think it's an eye opener

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#53 Obee

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 08:31 PM

 JohnnyMIke, on 10 October 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

From my limited experience, the bad rounds make a big difference as well: a step relative of mine scraped it around on the PGA tour for a year or two around 1980. I never, I mean, ever saw him shoot above 79 when I played with him 10-15 years later.  My younger scratch friends (like 19-21 year olds who have just gotten there) can shoot a couple below the course rating, but they can also pop an 85 on a bad day.  
My friend who is +3 and a bit older (having been scratch or better for maybe 12-15 years), was only rarely at 81-82, and posted more rounds of -3 or better (course where we used to play was 74.2/140) . My mini-tour pro friend and the very best ams will shoot around 80 on their worst tournament rounds, but are almost always at or below the course rating even on an moderately off day. Which I guess is a fancy of version of the anti-cap argument.
So, Obee, how about this: they are 4 or so shots better on an average day, and maybe 2-4 better when they are  both lights out, but 6-8 or more when both are off?

It can be a lot more than 6-8 on a bad day for the scratch. 15ish.

As an example, When Tour pros play my home course in the winter, when the greens are firm and fast, when they play WELL, they shoot 65 to 68 from our back tees (7,180, 75.9/148). On fire is 62-64. "Meh" is 69 to 72. Bad day is over par.

I've seen Rickie shoot 62. I've seen him shoot 73. Mickelson's first few times around, his best was 69 after 3 tries.

And those examples are a top 10(?) and top 20(?) player in the world, not a Champions Tour player.

Playing the same course on the same days as the pros scratch guys at my club shoot as low as 69 and as high as 82 or 83. Rarely, if ever, above 84.

That's it. The calculus is pretty simple. It's all about ranges for each type of player.

It's not magic. There is no voodoo happening. It's just ranges and simple addition/subtraction.

Nerves are another story. First time I played with a Tour pro, I played like an idiot. Then I got over it and played my game in subsequent rounds.

Edited by Obee, 10 October 2018 - 09:16 PM.

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#54 Obee

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 09:18 PM

 msonaglioni, on 10 October 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

Take a look at this...

https://youtu.be/1DSlIgha3KU

I think it's an eye opener

How so?
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#55 farmer

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 03:55 PM

 Obee, on 10 October 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

 JohnnyMIke, on 10 October 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

From my limited experience, the bad rounds make a big difference as well: a step relative of mine scraped it around on the PGA tour for a year or two around 1980. I never, I mean, ever saw him shoot above 79 when I played with him 10-15 years later.  My younger scratch friends (like 19-21 year olds who have just gotten there) can shoot a couple below the course rating, but they can also pop an 85 on a bad day.  
My friend who is +3 and a bit older (having been scratch or better for maybe 12-15 years), was only rarely at 81-82, and posted more rounds of -3 or better (course where we used to play was 74.2/140) . My mini-tour pro friend and the very best ams will shoot around 80 on their worst tournament rounds, but are almost always at or below the course rating even on an moderately off day. Which I guess is a fancy of version of the anti-cap argument.
So, Obee, how about this: they are 4 or so shots better on an average day, and maybe 2-4 better when they are  both lights out, but 6-8 or more when both are off?

It can be a lot more than 6-8 on a bad day for the scratch. 15ish.

As an example, When Tour pros play my home course in the winter, when the greens are firm and fast, when they play WELL, they shoot 65 to 68 from our back tees (7,180, 75.9/148). On fire is 62-64. "Meh" is 69 to 72. Bad day is over par.

I've seen Rickie shoot 62. I've seen him shoot 73. Mickelson's first few times around, his best was 69 after 3 tries.

And those examples are a top 10(?) and top 20(?) player in the world, not a Champions Tour player.

Playing the same course on the same days as the pros scratch guys at my club shoot as low as 69 and as high as 82 or 83. Rarely, if ever, above 84.

That's it. The calculus is pretty simple. It's all about ranges for each type of player.

It's not magic. There is no voodoo happening. It's just ranges and simple addition/subtraction.

Nerves are another story. First time I played with a Tour pro, I played like an idiot. Then I got over it and played my game in subsequent rounds.
Wouldn't a "meh" day for a tour pro in your example be just about a +5-6 if they posted a bunch of these scores?  With a near 76 cr, scratch should be shooting a bunch of 75-80 rounds, so a "good" round of 65-68 would be a +8 or something, a level I find astonishing.  The 62?  I'm kind of pissed you didn't invite me, so I could have watched.


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#56 Shilgy

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 06:24 PM

 farmer, on 11 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

 Obee, on 10 October 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

 JohnnyMIke, on 10 October 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

From my limited experience, the bad rounds make a big difference as well: a step relative of mine scraped it around on the PGA tour for a year or two around 1980. I never, I mean, ever saw him shoot above 79 when I played with him 10-15 years later.  My younger scratch friends (like 19-21 year olds who have just gotten there) can shoot a couple below the course rating, but they can also pop an 85 on a bad day.  
My friend who is +3 and a bit older (having been scratch or better for maybe 12-15 years), was only rarely at 81-82, and posted more rounds of -3 or better (course where we used to play was 74.2/140) . My mini-tour pro friend and the very best ams will shoot around 80 on their worst tournament rounds, but are almost always at or below the course rating even on an moderately off day. Which I guess is a fancy of version of the anti-cap argument.
So, Obee, how about this: they are 4 or so shots better on an average day, and maybe 2-4 better when they are  both lights out, but 6-8 or more when both are off?

It can be a lot more than 6-8 on a bad day for the scratch. 15ish.

As an example, When Tour pros play my home course in the winter, when the greens are firm and fast, when they play WELL, they shoot 65 to 68 from our back tees (7,180, 75.9/148). On fire is 62-64. "Meh" is 69 to 72. Bad day is over par.

I've seen Rickie shoot 62. I've seen him shoot 73. Mickelson's first few times around, his best was 69 after 3 tries.

And those examples are a top 10(?) and top 20(?) player in the world, not a Champions Tour player.

Playing the same course on the same days as the pros scratch guys at my club shoot as low as 69 and as high as 82 or 83. Rarely, if ever, above 84.

That's it. The calculus is pretty simple. It's all about ranges for each type of player.

It's not magic. There is no voodoo happening. It's just ranges and simple addition/subtraction.

Nerves are another story. First time I played with a Tour pro, I played like an idiot. Then I got over it and played my game in subsequent rounds.
Wouldn't a "meh" day for a tour pro in your example be just about a +5-6 if they posted a bunch of these scores?  With a near 76 cr, scratch should be shooting a bunch of 75-80 rounds, so a "good" round of 65-68 would be a +8 or something, a level I find astonishing.  The 62?  I'm kind of pissed you didn't invite me, so I could have watched.
Course rating of 76 a scratch (0.0 index) would average about 79.
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#57 Obee

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 02:20 PM

 Shilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

 farmer, on 11 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

 Obee, on 10 October 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

 JohnnyMIke, on 10 October 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

From my limited experience, the bad rounds make a big difference as well: a step relative of mine scraped it around on the PGA tour for a year or two around 1980. I never, I mean, ever saw him shoot above 79 when I played with him 10-15 years later.  My younger scratch friends (like 19-21 year olds who have just gotten there) can shoot a couple below the course rating, but they can also pop an 85 on a bad day.  
My friend who is +3 and a bit older (having been scratch or better for maybe 12-15 years), was only rarely at 81-82, and posted more rounds of -3 or better (course where we used to play was 74.2/140) . My mini-tour pro friend and the very best ams will shoot around 80 on their worst tournament rounds, but are almost always at or below the course rating even on an moderately off day. Which I guess is a fancy of version of the anti-cap argument.
So, Obee, how about this: they are 4 or so shots better on an average day, and maybe 2-4 better when they are  both lights out, but 6-8 or more when both are off?

It can be a lot more than 6-8 on a bad day for the scratch. 15ish.

As an example, When Tour pros play my home course in the winter, when the greens are firm and fast, when they play WELL, they shoot 65 to 68 from our back tees (7,180, 75.9/148). On fire is 62-64. "Meh" is 69 to 72. Bad day is over par.

I've seen Rickie shoot 62. I've seen him shoot 73. Mickelson's first few times around, his best was 69 after 3 tries.

And those examples are a top 10(?) and top 20(?) player in the world, not a Champions Tour player.

Playing the same course on the same days as the pros scratch guys at my club shoot as low as 69 and as high as 82 or 83. Rarely, if ever, above 84.

That's it. The calculus is pretty simple. It's all about ranges for each type of player.

It's not magic. There is no voodoo happening. It's just ranges and simple addition/subtraction.

Nerves are another story. First time I played with a Tour pro, I played like an idiot. Then I got over it and played my game in subsequent rounds.
Wouldn't a "meh" day for a tour pro in your example be just about a +5-6 if they posted a bunch of these scores?  With a near 76 cr, scratch should be shooting a bunch of 75-80 rounds, so a "good" round of 65-68 would be a +8 or something, a level I find astonishing.  The 62?  I'm kind of pissed you didn't invite me, so I could have watched.
Course rating of 76 a scratch (0.0 index) would average about 79.

Yes, that's for a hypothetical "perfect" scratch golfer. The reality is that most players who play to scratch have months in the +handicap range and months above zero.

I rarely see any of our "scratch" guys shoot much more than 82 or 83 at Bear Creek from the tips. We have our Club Championship coming up, and it will be played directly after 2nd stage of Q-School I will do a full report. Course will probably play two holes up in order to keep pace of play reasonable. Course will play to prolly 7100, 75.1/145 or so. Greens will be firm and fast. Looking forward to it!
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#58 coachemup

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 03:40 PM

I hate replying to these topics because there is no "right" answer.  I will make it pretty simple for everyone though based on my own experiences of playing with tour guys from all sorts of different tours:

A tour pro will shoot more rounds in the 60's and a scratch player will shoot more rounds in the 80's over the course of a year.  On any given day, a scratch golfer may shoot a better score than a tour player, but he will not do it over the course of a week, a month or a year.

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#59 Shilgy

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 05:24 PM

 Obee, on 12 October 2018 - 02:20 PM, said:

 Shilgy, on 11 October 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

 farmer, on 11 October 2018 - 03:55 PM, said:

 Obee, on 10 October 2018 - 08:31 PM, said:

 JohnnyMIke, on 10 October 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

From my limited experience, the bad rounds make a big difference as well: a step relative of mine scraped it around on the PGA tour for a year or two around 1980. I never, I mean, ever saw him shoot above 79 when I played with him 10-15 years later.  My younger scratch friends (like 19-21 year olds who have just gotten there) can shoot a couple below the course rating, but they can also pop an 85 on a bad day.  
My friend who is +3 and a bit older (having been scratch or better for maybe 12-15 years), was only rarely at 81-82, and posted more rounds of -3 or better (course where we used to play was 74.2/140) . My mini-tour pro friend and the very best ams will shoot around 80 on their worst tournament rounds, but are almost always at or below the course rating even on an moderately off day. Which I guess is a fancy of version of the anti-cap argument.
So, Obee, how about this: they are 4 or so shots better on an average day, and maybe 2-4 better when they are  both lights out, but 6-8 or more when both are off?

It can be a lot more than 6-8 on a bad day for the scratch. 15ish.

As an example, When Tour pros play my home course in the winter, when the greens are firm and fast, when they play WELL, they shoot 65 to 68 from our back tees (7,180, 75.9/148). On fire is 62-64. "Meh" is 69 to 72. Bad day is over par.

I've seen Rickie shoot 62. I've seen him shoot 73. Mickelson's first few times around, his best was 69 after 3 tries.

And those examples are a top 10(?) and top 20(?) player in the world, not a Champions Tour player.

Playing the same course on the same days as the pros scratch guys at my club shoot as low as 69 and as high as 82 or 83. Rarely, if ever, above 84.

That's it. The calculus is pretty simple. It's all about ranges for each type of player.

It's not magic. There is no voodoo happening. It's just ranges and simple addition/subtraction.

Nerves are another story. First time I played with a Tour pro, I played like an idiot. Then I got over it and played my game in subsequent rounds.
Wouldn't a "meh" day for a tour pro in your example be just about a +5-6 if they posted a bunch of these scores?  With a near 76 cr, scratch should be shooting a bunch of 75-80 rounds, so a "good" round of 65-68 would be a +8 or something, a level I find astonishing.  The 62?  I'm kind of pissed you didn't invite me, so I could have watched.
Course rating of 76 a scratch (0.0 index) would average about 79.

Yes, that's for a hypothetical "perfect" scratch golfer. The reality is that most players who play to scratch have months in the +handicap range and months above zero.

I rarely see any of our "scratch" guys shoot much more than 82 or 83 at Bear Creek from the tips. We have our Club Championship coming up, and it will be played directly after 2nd stage of Q-School I will do a full report. Course will probably play two holes up in order to keep pace of play reasonable. Course will play to prolly 7100, 75.1/145 or so. Greens will be firm and fast. Looking forward to it!
Yes, most players vary a bit. So at the extreme they will range from 2 to +2. That sounds fair? At their best they will average about 76 and at worst will average about 80-81(on the course rated at 76.0)

We all have hot and cold streaks certainly. Even the pros say they make a goodly chunk of each years dough in a relatively short stretch. So during a typical season Obee will play as +2 to 1? And I'll be somewhere around 1 or 2 low to 5 or 6 for high. Usually in the 3-5 range. For me some of it is seasonal, part work, part family. Different obligations affect our game.
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#60 gatorMD

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Posted 15 October 2018 - 06:26 PM

https://www.instagra...by=europeantour

Rose plays at a +10........................  :stink:

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