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Low bounce irons


73 replies to this topic

#31 BiggErn

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.


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#32 Cwebb

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4

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#33 BiggErn

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 07:58 PM

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4


Not relevant. He’s talking about wedges and people that flip.

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#34 SwingMan

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 07:59 PM

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4

Well, you don't compress the ball into the ground on a good stroke but one gets his drift as to a flip.

Edited by SwingMan, 03 October 2018 - 08:00 PM.

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#35 Cwebb

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 09:38 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4


Not relevant. He’s talking about wedges and people that flip.

It's relevant because one of greatest ball strikers of all time, used the description "getting under the golf ball"


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#36 BiggErn

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:08 PM

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4


Not relevant. He’s talking about wedges and people that flip.

It's relevant because one of greatest ball strikers of all time, used the description "getting under the golf ball"


If that’s all you heard then whatever. Keep trying to get under it.

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#37 BiggErn

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:12 PM

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4


Not relevant. He’s talking about wedges and people that flip.

It's relevant because one of greatest ball strikers of all time, used the description "getting under the golf ball"

I’ll add that he hit a lot of punch shots due to playing off backed out hard pan. I will anxiously await an example of someone hitting a punch off hard pan by “getting under” the ball. I’d love to see any shot of someone hitting it solid by getting under the ball.

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#38 Kingcat990

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:23 PM

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#39 Cwebb

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:29 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 10:12 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 07:58 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 03 October 2018 - 07:37 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

“Getting the club under the ball” is the first sign it isn’t the clubs.

Not necessarily.  That is laymen's terms for getting the sweet-spot low enough on the ball for solid contact.  Listen to Lee Trevino in this clip.  Here is an all time great ball striker who learned to play on hard ground in Texas using his own description of this...
https://www.youtube....h?v=h5J43wMQXZ4


Not relevant. He’s talking about wedges and people that flip.

It's relevant because one of greatest ball strikers of all time, used the description "getting under the golf ball"

I’ll add that he hit a lot of punch shots due to playing off backed out hard pan. I will anxiously await an example of someone hitting a punch off hard pan by “getting under” the ball. I’d love to see any shot of someone hitting it solid by getting under the ball.

I don't think you're understanding my point and Trevino's "laymen's" way of describing it....

A solid iron/wedge shot in the 'vertical aspect' of impact, comes from getting the sweet-spot (COG) of the head design, in line with or better yet, below the center of the ball.

Impact where the sweet-spot (COG) comes in a little above the center of the ball is "thin".

When Trevino talks about "getting under the golf ball", he's describing his method for getting the sweet-spot under the center of the ball, which is what produces pure "compressed" iron/wedge shots....

This is more difficult to achieve from hard turf and tight lies.  So as he describes, you increase your odds of getting "under" the ball for solid contact, by hitting down on the shot.  The downward angle drives the sweet-spot further under the center of the ball.

My suggestion for those struggling with this, is to analyze the height of the sweet-spot for the iron design you play.  If it's one that is on the higher side...and especially if you play from hard ground and tight lies,....then try something with a lower sweet-spot...

Now you're not required to pound down on the hard ground as much, in order to get the sweet-spot under the center of the ball

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#40 BiggErn

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:42 PM

Yea, It’s not that huge of a deal. A few degrees of bounce should have no bearing on a decent ball striker playing from a tight lie and I doubt someone plays where they get a bare lie almost all the time anyway. Wasn’t Trevino talking about hitting punch shots with a wedge that had 14* of bounce from hard pan?


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#41 cxx

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 07:49 AM

The bigger problem of using irons with high effective bounce is the negative feedback they provide when played on hardpan. One or two hand stingers from the club head bouncing off the ground will change the next swing.

I do agree that a club head with lower CG would be easier to hit in these conditions.  The higher CG works better on those soft bent fairways in the north east.

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#42 JFM628

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 08:54 AM

View PostGolf64, on 02 October 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

Srixon have a V sole(5/785s). Might help? If not, go Mizuno.

Exactly this...Mizuno is low bounce or relatively low bounce throughout the set.  V-Sole is very versatile and works very well on hard, dry courses.

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#43 baloo

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 09:21 AM

My 1954 Spaldings have zero bounce.
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#44 SwingMan

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 10:35 AM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yea, It’s not that huge of a deal. A few degrees of bounce should have no bearing on a decent ball striker playing from a tight lie and I doubt someone plays where they get a bare lie almost all the time anyway. Wasn’t Trevino talking about hitting punch shots with a wedge that had 14* of bounce from hard pan?

I think Trevino said 12 degrees ... but 12 or 14, that's a big bite of bounce. As an aside, CWebb has posted about COG and MPF VCOG for years, and is quite knowledgeable about what to take and not take from MPF.
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#45 Cwebb

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 10:50 AM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yea, It’s not that huge of a deal. A few degrees of bounce should have no bearing on a decent ball striker playing from a tight lie and I doubt someone plays where they get a bare lie almost all the time anyway. Wasn’t Trevino talking about hitting punch shots with a wedge that had 14* of bounce from hard pan?

Trevino said that where he played in Texas, before he made it to the tour, that everything was like hard pan.  There are places that have hard baked out ground in the fairways, where everything is a tight lie....

So he learned to "punch" everything, which is way of hitting down on the shot more and with more shaft lean, which drives the sweet-spot (COG) at a further downward angle in relation to the center of the ball.  It was the only way he could get consistently pure contact from the conditions he played in.  Otherwise he'd have been hitting a lot of shots "thin".

This effect is magnified ever greater from hard ground with an old sand wedge with a lot of bounce and the typical high sweet-spot that those designs had.

For many players, the ideal "sole design" for irons is one where if we were to touch the turf/ground right at the ball, the sole will stay as low to the ground line as possible while the ball is on the face.  Not deflecting up much off harder ground....and not digging/snagging much from more lush turf

Edited by Cwebb, 04 October 2018 - 10:51 AM.


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#46 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 04 October 2018 - 05:54 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yea, It’s not that huge of a deal. A few degrees of bounce should have no bearing on a decent ball striker playing from a tight lie and I doubt someone plays where they get a bare lie almost all the time anyway. Wasn’t Trevino talking about hitting punch shots with a wedge that had 14* of bounce from hard pan?
Actually where I play many of the lies in the fairway are on wispy, weak bermuda over very firm ground.  The bermuda cannot support the weight of the ball which basically sits on the firm turf.  I have noticed about a half club carry loss and much lower apex when playing my home course vs playing a lusher layout with firm, but much thicker mat of grass under the ball providing a little cushion.  My irons have a very high vertical CoG.  I swapped out 14° bounce wedges with 7° - 8° bounce wedges because of squirrelly thin contact issues (it helped tremendously).  While rare most places, it is a real issue in various Texas locales.
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#47 Pepperturbo

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 03:23 PM

Bending strong is acceptable for some amateur and pro golfers but not IMO a good idea for people that lack ball striking skill, or mid-high caps.  Especially if the current heads already have strong lofts.  It can cause problematic ball striking, increase spin, undesirable trajectory and distance loss.  My 2cents. :beach:

Edited by Pepperturbo, 08 October 2018 - 03:24 PM.

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#48 bladehunter

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postgators78, on 03 October 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you're hitting it so far behind the ball you're skipping into it and topping the ball I can guarantee it's not the bounce that's the issue.
Hitting fat is never a good play, but the OP did describe it as a "miss".  However, even a ball first strike off very firm turf/hardpan can cause issues if the club has too much bounce or a very high CoG.  Just because it is ball first doesn't mean the bottom of the club never strikes turf or ground while still in contact with the ball.  Forward shaft lean helps, but can become a negative sum game between extra launch from impacting the ball closer to the vertical CoG vs the excessive shaft lean to get that impact position.


Such a Timely thread..


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....
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#49 bladehunter

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:44 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 03 October 2018 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yea, It’s not that huge of a deal. A few degrees of bounce should have no bearing on a decent ball striker playing from a tight lie and I doubt someone plays where they get a bare lie almost all the time anyway. Wasn’t Trevino talking about hitting punch shots with a wedge that had 14* of bounce from hard pan?

brother....  if youre ever in upstate SC in august PM me .. Ill take you to a place that doesnt water the Bermuda much , but its green as can be. You will have trouble getting those 790s under the ball .. period..  I agree with you on the short irons..I can play a pretty harsh squeeze fade with alot of lean ,  that gets any sole into the ground.. But youre pissing in the wind trying to play long irons that way .. they wont go 3/4 distance ..May as well hit a 7 iron as a 4..

edit--Best way i can describe it to you is to ask ...Do you take a divot with your longest iron in the 790?  if you answer yes ( as you should) then ill say ..You wont off the hard turf im describing.. if you make a disturbance its will be a rubbing of the grass where it sort of grates off the toplayer....  This is why every shot is thin... if the bottom groove is hitting the middle of the ball you arent making good contact ..well if you cannot get the bottom groove underneath the ball at impact , every shot is thin... dont believe that ?  Google Tiger woods iron wear spot....You see any browning on the leading edge area of his irons ?   no its above the bottom groove...

Edited by bladehunter, 08 October 2018 - 10:04 PM.

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#50 Cwebb

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....

The problem with the i500 is that they have a sweet-spot (AVCOG) that is higher than the center of the ball, which makes them very difficult to hit from tighter lies.  Their AVCOG is .940", which is the highest that Ping has ever had.  The center of a golf ball is .840"

Edited by Cwebb, 08 October 2018 - 09:49 PM.


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#51 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postgators78, on 03 October 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you're hitting it so far behind the ball you're skipping into it and topping the ball I can guarantee it's not the bounce that's the issue.
Hitting fat is never a good play, but the OP did describe it as a "miss".  However, even a ball first strike off very firm turf/hardpan can cause issues if the club has too much bounce or a very high CoG.  Just because it is ball first doesn't mean the bottom of the club never strikes turf or ground while still in contact with the ball.  Forward shaft lean helps, but can become a negative sum game between extra launch from impacting the ball closer to the vertical CoG vs the excessive shaft lean to get that impact position.


Such a Timely thread..


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....
BH, do you ever feel almost like a multi-strike when hitting off a very firm lie where the ball comes out a bit lower, but completely dead?  I used to get that strike with my high bounce wedges and switched to low bounce which helps.  The high CoG irons I am playing just launch low off the tarmac.  Feels like all strikes are thin.  Off the tee or on better turf they fly fine.  I am not a great ballstriker for sure, but I don't think I am a complete hack either.  It seems to be a real problem.
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#52 bladehunter

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:53 PM

View PostCwebb, on 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....

The problem with the i500 is that they have a sweet-spot (AVCOG) that is higher than the center of the ball, which makes them very difficult to hit from tighter lies.  Their AVCOG is .940", which is the highest that Ping has ever had.  The center of a golf ball is .840"

so im not crazy....  damn it ...  Ive really really tried to find an iron that i can love that isnt an MB ....and somehow missed the science on why it is i like what i like...  Makes perfect sense when compared to what im seeing in real application . also explains why i hit them so good on the soft sand range . Im getting the COG low enough to work.
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#53 bladehunter

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:55 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postgators78, on 03 October 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you're hitting it so far behind the ball you're skipping into it and topping the ball I can guarantee it's not the bounce that's the issue.
Hitting fat is never a good play, but the OP did describe it as a "miss".  However, even a ball first strike off very firm turf/hardpan can cause issues if the club has too much bounce or a very high CoG.  Just because it is ball first doesn't mean the bottom of the club never strikes turf or ground while still in contact with the ball.  Forward shaft lean helps, but can become a negative sum game between extra launch from impacting the ball closer to the vertical CoG vs the excessive shaft lean to get that impact position.


Such a Timely thread..


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....
BH, do you ever feel almost like a multi-strike when hitting off a very firm lie where the ball comes out a bit lower, but completely dead?  I used to get that strike with my high bounce wedges and switched to low bounce which helps.  The high CoG irons I am playing just launch low off the tarmac.  Feels like all strikes are thin.  Off the tee or on better turf they fly fine.  I am not a great ballstriker for sure, but I don't think I am a complete hack either.  It seems to be a real problem.

100% what im seeing with the i500.....  again side by side with two sets of blades ( miura LE small blade and titleist 681)  and the 2-4 iron blades are easier to hit than the 4 from the i500 set....  makes no sense ,but now it does ...

basically if i move to the beach , or it rains every day the I500 is perfect for me...otherwise im chasing my tail...again....

Edited by bladehunter, 08 October 2018 - 09:57 PM.

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#54 Cwebb

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 09:58 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:53 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....

The problem with the i500 is that they have a sweet-spot (AVCOG) that is higher than the center of the ball, which makes them very difficult to hit from tighter lies.  Their AVCOG is .940", which is the highest that Ping has ever had.  The center of a golf ball is .840"

so im not crazy....  damn it ...  Ive really really tried to find an iron that i can love that isnt an MB ....and somehow missed the science on why it is i like what i like...  Makes perfect sense when compared to what im seeing in real application . also explains why i hit them so good on the soft sand range . Im getting the COG low enough to work.

You should try a Maltby TE or DBM (same design, different finish).  Sounds like it would be exactly what you're looking for.  Great looks for a "players cavity".  Very easy to hit and "forgiving".  Versatile sole design.....and low sweet-spot (AVCOG) for tight lie help.  

Could even use them just as the longer irons in a combo set

Edited by Cwebb, 08 October 2018 - 10:00 PM.


24

#55 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 10:09 PM

View PostCwebb, on 08 October 2018 - 09:58 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:53 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....

The problem with the i500 is that they have a sweet-spot (AVCOG) that is higher than the center of the ball, which makes them very difficult to hit from tighter lies.  Their AVCOG is .940", which is the highest that Ping has ever had.  The center of a golf ball is .840"

so im not crazy....  damn it ...  Ive really really tried to find an iron that i can love that isnt an MB ....and somehow missed the science on why it is i like what i like...  Makes perfect sense when compared to what im seeing in real application . also explains why i hit them so good on the soft sand range . Im getting the COG low enough to work.

You should try a Maltby TE or DBM (same design, different finish).  Sounds like it would be exactly what you're looking for.  Great looks for a "players cavity".  Very easy to hit and "forgiving".  Versatile sole design.....and low sweet-spot (AVCOG) for tight lie help.  

Could even use them just as the longer irons in a combo set
If you want something more bladelike (CoG isn't as low, however), the Maltby TS-1 is a very nice head.  I will build out a set this winter.  I have been testing the 5i and PW.  They look and play great.

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#56 SwingMan

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 10:10 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:53 PM, said:

View PostCwebb, on 08 October 2018 - 09:48 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....

The problem with the i500 is that they have a sweet-spot (AVCOG) that is higher than the center of the ball, which makes them very difficult to hit from tighter lies.  Their AVCOG is .940", which is the highest that Ping has ever had.  The center of a golf ball is .840"

so im not crazy....  damn it ...  Ive really really tried to find an iron that i can love that isnt an MB ....and somehow missed the science on why it is i like what i like...  Makes perfect sense when compared to what im seeing in real application . also explains why i hit them so good on the soft sand range . Im getting the COG low enough to work.

Mizuno 919 Forged.... if you want a lower AVCOG
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#57 BiggErn

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 10:14 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postgators78, on 03 October 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you're hitting it so far behind the ball you're skipping into it and topping the ball I can guarantee it's not the bounce that's the issue.
Hitting fat is never a good play, but the OP did describe it as a "miss".  However, even a ball first strike off very firm turf/hardpan can cause issues if the club has too much bounce or a very high CoG.  Just because it is ball first doesn't mean the bottom of the club never strikes turf or ground while still in contact with the ball.  Forward shaft lean helps, but can become a negative sum game between extra launch from impacting the ball closer to the vertical CoG vs the excessive shaft lean to get that impact position.


Such a Timely thread..


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....


I live in upstate S.C. and I play 790s with no issues. Some of best best struck shots are from firm lies. I hit my wedges that have at least 10* of bounce with zero issues from any lie. I’ve played pretty much every public course in Greenville and Spartanburg. Never had an issue with the cambered sole of J40 DPCs either.

27

#58 bladehunter

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 10:23 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 08 October 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postgators78, on 03 October 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you're hitting it so far behind the ball you're skipping into it and topping the ball I can guarantee it's not the bounce that's the issue.
Hitting fat is never a good play, but the OP did describe it as a "miss".  However, even a ball first strike off very firm turf/hardpan can cause issues if the club has too much bounce or a very high CoG.  Just because it is ball first doesn't mean the bottom of the club never strikes turf or ground while still in contact with the ball.  Forward shaft lean helps, but can become a negative sum game between extra launch from impacting the ball closer to the vertical CoG vs the excessive shaft lean to get that impact position.


Such a Timely thread..


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....


I live in upstate S.C. and I play 790s with no issues. Some of best best struck shots are from firm lies. I hit my wedges that have at least 10* of bounce with zero issues from any lie. I’ve played pretty much every public course in Greenville and Spartanburg. Never had an issue with the cambered sole of J40 DPCs either.


well ill be dipped!!!


I must be just too much hack for it then ...lol

Wish youd mentioned it sooner , I had no idea we where neighbors.



seriously though ...  With that knowledge , do you not see the difference of strike from our wet seasons vs the concrete dry times ?    

Im not arguing wedges..  I amnot having any wedge issues.. Im talking wider sole , blunt/round leading edge irons..specifically long irons ... Im not talking tight lies.. Im talking hard and tight lies liek we have right now ( although it rained this evening)
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#59 BiggErn

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 10:46 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 08 October 2018 - 10:14 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 October 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 October 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View Postgators78, on 03 October 2018 - 10:10 AM, said:

If you're hitting it so far behind the ball you're skipping into it and topping the ball I can guarantee it's not the bounce that's the issue.
Hitting fat is never a good play, but the OP did describe it as a "miss".  However, even a ball first strike off very firm turf/hardpan can cause issues if the club has too much bounce or a very high CoG.  Just because it is ball first doesn't mean the bottom of the club never strikes turf or ground while still in contact with the ball.  Forward shaft lean helps, but can become a negative sum game between extra launch from impacting the ball closer to the vertical CoG vs the excessive shaft lean to get that impact position.


Such a Timely thread..


Ive searched all summer for an iron i like the turf interaction of that has some forgivness...  that perfect combo...  IN upstate south carolina most courses are red clay based..not sand like near the coast.. if its dry its literally like playing off cart path . Ive come to realize this is the main reason for my Blade iron addiction.. Getting the damn club under the ball is soooo much easier with a thin sole.  Im hitting a set of Ping i500 right now and at the sand based driving range at the club i love them .. But on course or at my home range with the clay base the 4-6 irons are just hard to get a consistent strike with..  I have my own loft and lie machine so ive been tweeking lie angles all day .   Better..BUT if you hit them side by side with the Miura small blade ( same shaft, swingweight and grips) the difference is very real .  

Trust me .. im hitting ball 1st..  But with the I500 alot of strikes are a groove low..   Why cant oems split the difference anymore ?  literally no non blade iron made for the US market "cuts"... we who play off concrete 'cut" long shallow divots dry or wet .. and i dont even think its a bounce issue.. My gap wedge has 12 degrees , but has a sharp leading edge and the right amount of camber to get it under the ball....


I live in upstate S.C. and I play 790s with no issues. Some of best best struck shots are from firm lies. I hit my wedges that have at least 10* of bounce with zero issues from any lie. I’ve played pretty much every public course in Greenville and Spartanburg. Never had an issue with the cambered sole of J40 DPCs either.


well ill be dipped!!!


I must be just too much hack for it then ...lol

Wish youd mentioned it sooner , I had no idea we where neighbors.



seriously though ...  With that knowledge , do you not see the difference of strike from our wet seasons vs the concrete dry times ?    

Im not arguing wedges..  I amnot having any wedge issues.. Im talking wider sole , blunt/round leading edge irons..specifically long irons ... Im not talking tight lies.. Im talking hard and tight lies liek we have right now ( although it rained this evening)


I guess I just don’t think about it that much and don’t consider it a big deal. I can’t see how a course can dictate what irons you play when you never know what the weather is gonna be and you can have a zillion different lies on any course. Granted some courses are generally in better shape than others but rarely is a fairway lie an issue anywhere I play. The lie can dictate a lot and cause you to make setup and swing adjustments but I just don’t see where the type of iron really matters. If there’s a patch of clay on the fairway then in our group that’s GUR. The worst part of playing in upstate SC is the number of courses that have went to zoysia greens. They suck.

29

#60 bladehunter

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Posted 08 October 2018 - 11:03 PM

Definitely agree with the zoysia greens. Like putting on Velcro.  Im guessing you have played River Falls ?  I despise those greens.  Flat but I never make anything on that course.  And pitches etc are so inconsistent.  One may roll out and next one backs up.

Edited by bladehunter, 08 October 2018 - 11:03 PM.

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