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Just did a fitting - whatís the best place to buy and a question on SST PURE

TM770 Titleist TS3

58 replies to this topic

#31 Z1ggy16

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:37 AM

More concerning is land angle. 4500 on a low lofted 6i might not be too out of the norm, but ideally you'd want that land angle to be closer to 48, even 50*.

Two ways to fix this potentially:

1) Play a higher spinning ball if you currently play something like AVX, Supersoft, etc.
2) Weaken the loft on the irons

IMO, 43* is not really ideal for a club that you would likely be using most of the time into greens.

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#32 LFKB

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:43 AM

 bkirkley09, on 02 October 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

 LFKB, on 01 October 2018 - 09:18 PM, said:

 Jagpilotohio, on 01 October 2018 - 08:59 PM, said:

 Tzoid, on 01 October 2018 - 08:32 PM, said:

D7 Swing weights in the Irons built on a 39.5" 5 Iron?  You must be a Mountain of a Man...


Hahahaha!   You beat me to it. Holy macaroni!   Those are some specs.  5 iron is 1.5 inches longer than my "traditional" 5 iron at 38" and 6 swingweight points heavier.

You must be one big Hombre!!

One thing to note.....those shafts are going to play REALLY soft at that length and that swingweight.

I really hope your guy knew what he was doing, but those are some pretty severe specs.

So here are my stats from the trackman with a 6 iron and that shaft...take a look and let me know if this looks good it or if anything stands out as I don't know how to interpret the data as well as others. Thanks

Club speed - 86
Ball speed - 124
Smash - 1.44
Launch angle - 14.5
Spin rate - 4500
Carry - 183
Distance - 195
Land angle - 43
Height - 86

Seems low spin for a 6 iron as well?

The fitter was a bit skeptical of the trackman numbers on the spins...although my spin rate on my gamer was 5,500 and it was in the 4,500 to 5,000 with the new irons I was hitting.  Maybe I will go hit them again at a different spot and see what it says on the spin rate.

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#33 Z1ggy16

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:54 AM

If you were hitting off a mat... it can tend to reduce spin. 4500-5500 should be okay if your irons are a little stronger lofted. It's that land angle that's more the issue. However, since the mat could reduce spin... it's also going to lower your peak height and also your descent angle because of that.

Fittings are imperfect unless you are hitting a ton of balls using Trackman off real grass, on a fairly non windy day. You will have to take a new set on the course, then tweak a bit from their if you notice the irons running out a bit. On Trackman, my P790's can get very low in spin with the longer irons, but on the course I never have issues. I hit a 5i the other day into a par 5 and my ball was 6 feet from my pitch mark. On Trackman I get at least 10yards of roll out.
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#34 pholway

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:08 PM

So Club champion charges you for the Driver / 3wood with a stock shaft and then full retail for the aftermarket shaft? That's crazy town
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#35 Bad9

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:35 PM

 swgolf12, on 02 October 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

 Tzoid, on 01 October 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

SST Puring is a waste of money in my opinion....  maybe contact Nippon and ask them but I was told that the Nippon Modus Shaft doesn't have a Spline so SST Puring is
not even possible.   Not sure about the 1050GH

You know so little about the SST Puring process and this post confirms it. It's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

OP, do some research on SST Puring, there are plenty of people on here who say it's garbage, and plenty of people who understand the science behind it.

But like everyone else said, you're getting ripped off on that build.

And there are people here who understand the science and realize it is meaningless in regards to its effect on a golf shot.

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#36 LFKB

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:53 PM

 Z1ggy16, on 02 October 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you were hitting off a mat... it can tend to reduce spin. 4500-5500 should be okay if your irons are a little stronger lofted. It's that land angle that's more the issue. However, since the mat could reduce spin... it's also going to lower your peak height and also your descent angle because of that.

Fittings are imperfect unless you are hitting a ton of balls using Trackman off real grass, on a fairly non windy day. You will have to take a new set on the course, then tweak a bit from their if you notice the irons running out a bit. On Trackman, my P790's can get very low in spin with the longer irons, but on the course I never have issues. I hit a 5i the other day into a par 5 and my ball was 6 feet from my pitch mark. On Trackman I get at least 10yards of roll out.

Thanks, that's very helpful.  I was hitting off a mat.  I was concerned with the spin and roll out but I typically hold greens pretty well with my current irons so I expect I will have similar results to you when I'm out on the course. The fitter wasn't concerned with the spin and rollout and indicated it may be the mats/trackman so it seems his read is similar to yours.

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#37 LFKB

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:14 PM

 pholway, on 02 October 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

So Club champion charges you for the Driver / 3wood with a stock shaft and then full retail for the aftermarket shaft? That's crazy town

Yes, which is why I pushed back on the pricing.  Is there pricing out there on what a driver head costs without any shaft?  For example, for the TS3 or the M3.

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#38 squishyy

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:48 PM

 LFKB, on 02 October 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

 pholway, on 02 October 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

So Club champion charges you for the Driver / 3wood with a stock shaft and then full retail for the aftermarket shaft? That's crazy town

Yes, which is why I pushed back on the pricing.  Is there pricing out there on what a driver head costs without any shaft?  For example, for the TS3 or the M3.

Just buying the atmos shaft itself alone from here will save you at least $200. You can then buy the TS3 from a reputable seller here with a stock shaft and sell that shaft to reduce the cost even further...maybe $50-$100 dollars depending on the shaft. So you are already saving a significant amount buying elsewhere than with club champion for just the driver alone.

From your recommended fitted set, I believe you can find the whole set for roughly 30-40% less than the quoted price. But of course, it will require some searching and may be a bit time consuming. Iíd say itís worth sourcing everything separately on your own.
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#39 Z1ggy16

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:30 PM

 LFKB, on 02 October 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

 Z1ggy16, on 02 October 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

If you were hitting off a mat... it can tend to reduce spin. 4500-5500 should be okay if your irons are a little stronger lofted. It's that land angle that's more the issue. However, since the mat could reduce spin... it's also going to lower your peak height and also your descent angle because of that.

Fittings are imperfect unless you are hitting a ton of balls using Trackman off real grass, on a fairly non windy day. You will have to take a new set on the course, then tweak a bit from their if you notice the irons running out a bit. On Trackman, my P790's can get very low in spin with the longer irons, but on the course I never have issues. I hit a 5i the other day into a par 5 and my ball was 6 feet from my pitch mark. On Trackman I get at least 10yards of roll out.

Thanks, that's very helpful.  I was hitting off a mat.  I was concerned with the spin and roll out but I typically hold greens pretty well with my current irons so I expect I will have similar results to you when I'm out on the course. The fitter wasn't concerned with the spin and rollout and indicated it may be the mats/trackman so it seems his read is similar to yours.
Yeah the spin isn't a huge deal like I said. I'm not sure on the exact relationship mathematically between the ball speed, spin and launch and the resulting land angle due to hitting off a mat. Worst case is you get them on the course and you notice your ball is much further from it's pitch mark than you need and you go get your lofts tweaked, or use a higher spinning ball.
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#40 pholway

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:23 PM

 LFKB, on 02 October 2018 - 01:14 PM, said:

 pholway, on 02 October 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

So Club champion charges you for the Driver / 3wood with a stock shaft and then full retail for the aftermarket shaft? That's crazy town

Yes, which is why I pushed back on the pricing.  Is there pricing out there on what a driver head costs without any shaft?  For example, for the TS3 or the M3.

I mean you can walk into any golf store and just pay the upcharge and have them order it. Would be exactly the same. TM you can order direct online.

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#41 ProphetLogic

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:40 PM

2ndswing has your hybrid at $279...the shaft is no upcharge from them apparently, actually I'd imagine it's no upcharge everywhere else too, 2ndswing is just where I happened to look. I'm not a fan of CC, but it might be worth having them build the irons, I wouldn't trust TM to even come close to your specs.

Posted Image

Edited by ProphetLogic, 02 October 2018 - 07:44 PM.


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#42 Tzoid

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:24 PM

 swgolf12, on 02 October 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

 Tzoid, on 01 October 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

SST Puring is a waste of money in my opinion....  maybe contact Nippon and ask them but I was told that the Nippon Modus Shaft doesn't have a Spline so SST Puring is
not even possible.   Not sure about the 1050GH

You know so little about the SST Puring process and this post confirms it. It's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

OP, do some research on SST Puring, there are plenty of people on here who say it's garbage, and plenty of people who understand the science behind it.

But like everyone else said, you're getting ripped off on that build.

  Aren't you the condescending Snarky know it all.....  My statement comes from what  Nippon told me about the Modus shafts as well as my Club fitter that has been in the business for 30 years.

Wow dude really?

Edited by Tzoid, 02 October 2018 - 09:29 PM.

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#43 mefnocerous

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 11:49 PM

So everyone agrees that Club Champion, or True Spec or any of these other premier fitters are really good at what they do right?
Letting you try a ton of different stuff and find what fits you best.

But just not a good deal to buy the equipment from?

I mean theres no way theyre paying full retail price for these clubs.... pretty solid business model.
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#44 Masse1369

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 06:24 AM

Club Champion for the most part are a bunch of clowns. Iíve been fitting for probably close to 20 years. An inch and half over is asinine at your height. Iíve done an inch over a few times and those guys were 6í7Ē+. Puring is also a total waste of money and is purely marketing.
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#45 Olson12

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 08:30 AM

Did you get the quote from discount dans?  I'm curious to know how much less they were.

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#46 squishyy

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 09:49 AM

Thereís a brand new set of p770s on the bst for $500.
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#47 Tzoid

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 12:08 PM

 Olson12, on 03 October 2018 - 08:30 AM, said:

Did you get the quote from discount dans?  I'm curious to know how much less they were.

He should grab those and re-shaft with what works.   I've done that 2 or 3 times and sold the shafts that came with the clubs for a fair price to recoup some of the cost of the new shafts.
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#48 D0ch0l1d4y

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Posted 03 October 2018 - 10:41 PM

A buddy of mine here in KC just got a full bag fitting at CC with a similar story. They quoted him something like $3500 to build it all...and he was keeping his current driver/3w head!.

Between here and FaceBook groups, I helped him put the full bag together with parts and pieces for under $1500. All new components (including Fuji Pro 115i iron shafts) with the exception of the Iron heads - that looked hit less than a range session. Total time from fitting to full build out was about 4 weeks. He went back to CC to finish off his fitting (putter) and told them about it and they were floored.

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#49 roadtrippin4550

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 01:34 PM

Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing. Yes, no question it is expensive and you could probably find a better price with some extra effort or by sacrificing the quality of the build. From my experience with Club Champion the build is top notch, I've ordered a few things through them and don;t regret a single one. They fit you to those specs and will build your clubs to those exact specs, while going through somebody else and having the manufacturer build them I can promise your specs will not be close to those. At the same time, they may be able to help you out by ordering some of the wood shafts through the manufacturer and then building to those specs when they get it in. Sometimes you can find better prices through the OEM due simply to the volume they buy in.

Also, from somebody who has worked in the golf business it is a slap in the face to go get fit for clubs and then go buy them somewhere else as I am sure a decent portion of his pay is based on commission. If you thought he did a good job and showed you good results help the guy out. You dont have to buy everything through them, but you can always order stock clubs through Club Champion as well. You don't have to go through TGW or PGATSS or anyone else.
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#50 gioreeko

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 03:07 PM

Geez! They are trying to absolutely make a killing on you!!! Shop around on the net, many good suggestions on here, also try 2nd Swing golf too.

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#51 D0ch0l1d4y

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 03:18 PM

 roadtrippin4550, on 05 October 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

Also, from somebody who has worked in the golf business it is a slap in the face to go get fit for clubs and then go buy them somewhere else as I am sure a decent portion of his pay is based on commission. If you thought he did a good job and showed you good results help the guy out. You dont have to buy everything through them, but you can always order stock clubs through Club Champion as well. You don't have to go through TGW or PGATSS or anyone else.

They charge a fee for the fitting. You are owed nothing outside of that fee. If some (or all) of the fee was applied to a purchase, sure I'd go through the fitter (and I have).

Untitled.jpg

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#52 kekoa

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 03:36 PM

$1,400 for irons that have or will be discontinued soon and some fairly basic shafts?  That's highway robbery, but I'm sure a lot of people still pay it.

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#53 Augster

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 03:56 PM

 D0ch0l1d4y, on 05 October 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

 roadtrippin4550, on 05 October 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

Also, from somebody who has worked in the golf business it is a slap in the face to go get fit for clubs and then go buy them somewhere else as I am sure a decent portion of his pay is based on commission. If you thought he did a good job and showed you good results help the guy out. You dont have to buy everything through them, but you can always order stock clubs through Club Champion as well. You don't have to go through TGW or PGATSS or anyone else.

They charge a fee for the fitting. You are owed nothing outside of that fee. If some (or all) of the fee was applied to a purchase, sure I'd go through the fitter (and I have).

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Good find.

If the fitting is paid for and not applied toward a purchase, say thanks and try to save some money elsewhere.

They are trying to pick the low hanging fruit of guys that have more money than time and simply arenít going to search the net and pick and choose for 4 weeks to put a set together and save 2K.

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#54 Krt22

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Posted 05 October 2018 - 04:42 PM

 roadtrippin4550, on 05 October 2018 - 01:34 PM, said:

Here is my 2 cents on the whole thing. Yes, no question it is expensive and you could probably find a better price with some extra effort or by sacrificing the quality of the build. From my experience with Club Champion the build is top notch, I've ordered a few things through them and don;t regret a single one. They fit you to those specs and will build your clubs to those exact specs, while going through somebody else and having the manufacturer build them I can promise your specs will not be close to those. At the same time, they may be able to help you out by ordering some of the wood shafts through the manufacturer and then building to those specs when they get it in. Sometimes you can find better prices through the OEM due simply to the volume they buy in.

Also, from somebody who has worked in the golf business it is a slap in the face to go get fit for clubs and then go buy them somewhere else as I am sure a decent portion of his pay is based on commission. If you thought he did a good job and showed you good results help the guy out. You dont have to buy everything through them, but you can always order stock clubs through Club Champion as well. You don't have to go through TGW or PGATSS or anyone else.

Im not so sure. My buddies got fitted last year, same story that they buy the stock irons, charge you full price (and then some) for shafts and grips....when he could get the same exact shafts and grips at no up charge from Mizuno.It makes much more sense just to send the spec sheet to DDs since so many OEMs are now offering shaft upgrades at no charge. It's not a slap in the face when their business model is essentially highway robbery

Edited by Krt22, 05 October 2018 - 04:44 PM.


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#55 endy

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Posted 07 October 2018 - 03:48 PM

 nieeves, on 02 October 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

https://www.callaway...ts-black-6.html

If you're willing to get the adapter switched to a titleist one you can order the atmos black 6S shaft on here. 25% off with code TEAMCALLAWAY

Thereís an even cheaper option on the BST and itís been PURED !! 😊

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#56 swgolf12

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 10:56 AM

 Tzoid, on 02 October 2018 - 09:24 PM, said:

 swgolf12, on 02 October 2018 - 10:25 AM, said:

 Tzoid, on 01 October 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

SST Puring is a waste of money in my opinion....  maybe contact Nippon and ask them but I was told that the Nippon Modus Shaft doesn't have a Spline so SST Puring is
not even possible.   Not sure about the 1050GH

You know so little about the SST Puring process and this post confirms it. It's better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

OP, do some research on SST Puring, there are plenty of people on here who say it's garbage, and plenty of people who understand the science behind it.

But like everyone else said, you're getting ripped off on that build.

  Aren't you the condescending Snarky know it all.....  My statement comes from what  Nippon told me about the Modus shafts as well as my Club fitter that has been in the business for 30 years.

Wow dude really?

If there was no science behind it people wouldn't do it and Tiger Woods wouldn't have every club he ever touches pured.

SST Puring wasn't originally a process for golf shafts, it started with other industries, but you've already made up your mind and have no interest in science so why bother explaining.

And the person that I learned about the process from is one of the few Mitchell certified club repair instructors in the country, so he may have taught your club repair guy how to fix clubs,   so call it condescending, snarky, whatever you want, just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean other people should take your word for it.
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#57 Krt22

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 12:34 PM

Do you mind explaining the process? I'm interested in the science behind it (truthfully)

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#58 pinhigh27

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 09:50 AM

There are plenty of people who have high level club building knowledge who say puring is total bs.

The fact that tiger did it means nothing. There are still tour pros that wear magnetic bracelets. Those do nothing. Just like puring.

Fix your swing to hit better shots. Things like puring are popular because people want to buy a better game. But it doesn't work that way.
How to be in better shape for golf?
Become a better athlete.
Don't worry about golf specific.
Compound lifts w/ linear progress
Don't forget the mobility work.
More results, more functional

Spin is not your enemy, everything is a trade-off.
17 * 1700 goes really far, but doesn't go very straight or consistent
8* 3500 goes really straight, but doesn't go very far
Answer for most is somewhere in the middle.
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#59 Tzoid

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Posted 20 October 2018 - 06:52 PM

Site search helps...  I think these two Gentleman are well respected in the Club building industry.  

Russ Ryden:

Dave Tutelman taught us that FLO finds the point on a shaft where the spring force on one side is equal to the spring force on the other side. Then the weighted laser pointer moves in a straight line. When you do deflection measurements around a shaft you will see that they are to some degree elliptical in stiffness. Hence, where there is a FLO, 90 degrees around there is another FLO. CPM shows us which is stiffer and the difference between the two CPM readings shows what the degree of difference is. If it is a big number, say 6 CPM the shaft belongs in a dumpster. 3-5, is ok for an amateur, 2 or less professional.

Alignment is BS. Either the shaft is good or is no good. No amount of alignment, Puring, or anything else is going to get me to use a shaft that is R flex on one plane and S flex on another. If the shaft is round, and most are these days, alignment is useless. If it is not round, return it to where you got it. Make this simple test on a regular basis, and return the bad shafts and the problem will go away. In www.golfshaftreviews.info, I rate shafts by percentage. Divide the difference by the hard side and you will get a percentage number. Less than 98%- UhOh.

In the Brunswick/Royal Precision scale, 10 cpm was the difference between a 6.0 and a 5.0. A shaft with 5 CPM difference soft to hard side is a 5.0 and a 5.5. Now at the horizon in your swing with the toe up, its a 5.5 and at impact, its a 5.0. Do you really want to play with that shaft as hard as this game is already?

Spine alignment, FLO, bearing based spine finders, these are all things we should regard as folklore. That is my politically correct replacement term for WITCHCRAFT, which angered more clubmakers than I could count. As you said, there was never any proof that any of it mattered. It was just guys that did not really know what they were talking about, teaching other guys that knew even less. The USGA approved Puring because it made the bad shafts of the day, behave according the the USGA rules. With today's manufacturing technology, there is no excuse for bad shafts other than poor quality control or absolute disregard for shaft quality.

Rusty
www.fit2score.com



Tom Wishon:  

I was the guy that Dick Weiss (SST PURE) came to back in 1996 after he had been doing his initial research into the effects of shaft asymmetry, when he wanted someone to verify what he was seeing in his initial work. Dick insisted that the result of testing we did for him was to be kept confidential. We honored that request.

But I can tell you that back then, while shaft makers were aware that their shafts did not have the same exact bending properties in all directions about the circumference of their shafts, they did not have any awareness of how asymmetrical many of their shafts were, and what this could do to shot performance for certain swing types.

So yes, shafts back then exhibited a very wide range of asymmetry. And in our testing for Dick, we most certainly saw that finding the most stable plane of bending in these asymmetrical shafts and then orienting that plane at the target line most certainly improved the consistency of the impact and ball flight. We even were able to orient certain shafts in a way in which it virtually made it impossible to hit a draw or fade.

This was a point that the USGA also discovered when Dick came to them to appeal for a conformity ruling for his process. The USGA did actually write into their rule concerning shaft orientation that it was only to be done to allow shafts to play as they were intended to be designed to play, and not to be done for the purpose of purposely influencing the flight of the ball.

Once Dick's SST PURE process became more and more known, the shaft makers began to look more closely into this. Today, most of the better shaft makers institute a test or tests on all of their shafts as a normal step in production. From this they position graphite shafts' logo/name such that what they find under their test as a stable plane of bending is then oriented at the target when the shaft is installed logo up or logo down.

So today you won't see as wide of a variation in asymmetry in shafts made by quality shaft makers as there was back when Dick discovered this and invented his process. But because every shaft maker has a "flyer shaft" here and there, there are times purely at random when a golfer might have a shaft checked and re-oriented and see a difference in impact consistency on the face and a change in ballflight.

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