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Fan Hit by Koepka's Drive - **MERGED TOPICS**


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#61 imakaveli

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:11 AM

View Postcompton1977, on 02 October 2018 - 02:27 AM, said:

Why oh why can it not be mandatory that all players, caddies and Marshalls have to shout fore? I don't care if because they are 300 yards away they might not hear it, maybe they will hear and you could save some poor spectator an injury. Euro Tour players are very good and shouting fore PGA tour not so much. At least make the effort.

For the same reason JB Holmes did not get a penalty at the 18th of Torrey Pines.


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#62 Hawkeye77

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:12 AM

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#63 AuldPLO Swiss Golftrotter

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:13 AM

View Postgolfandfishing, on 02 October 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Are you sure she is losing her eye?  Article posted after it happened said it was not serious. This was days ago so obviously things could change. She can sue, she will probably win something in a settlement with the Euro Tour's insurance company. Koepka won't be involved in any proceedings.
It has been released today in french medias.
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#64 golfandfishing

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:16 AM

View PostAuldPLO Swiss Golftrotter, on 02 October 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

View Postgolfandfishing, on 02 October 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Are you sure she is losing her eye?  Article posted after it happened said it was not serious. This was days ago so obviously things could change. She can sue, she will probably win something in a settlement with the Euro Tour's insurance company. Koepka won't be involved in any proceedings.
It has been released today in french medias.

Woof. That’s a tough way to lose an eye. Not a good week for Koepka. Cost a lady her eye, fights with DJ, gets stomped on the RC. Regroup, come back next June for another major I guess.

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#65 bladehunter

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:17 AM

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

Yelling fore from 320 out makes zero.   Zero.  Read it. Zero difference.  You cannot hear it at that distance without a favorable wind or canyon echo to carry the sound.  Easily proven in a controlled test.  Remember All hat crowd noise.  I doubt you could hear the person beside you unless they were talking very loudly.  

Should you shout it ?  Sure.  As habit. Yes.  But it makes no difference in making Driver shot.  Par 3.  Yes. That matters. You can see the person on the tee. Not from 320 out.

That being said I feel terrible for the lady. But it is akin to standing in the street . I’d never stand 300 out at a tour event. Tee box or greenside only for me.

Edited by bladehunter, 02 October 2018 - 07:21 AM.

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#66 Golfer4Life

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:54 AM

The Daily Mail is reporting the woman lost her vision and it is filing a lawsuit.

I have a question for the members who fancy tour events on a regular basis.  Does the operator or the tour have a disclaimer?  Common sense tells me that one is at risk of getting hit by a golf ball, at a golf course, but that’s me.
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#67 I_HATE_SNOW

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:00 AM

View PostGolfer4Life, on 02 October 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

The Daily Mail is reporting the woman lost her vision and it is filing a lawsuit.

I have a question for the members who fancy tour events on a regular basis.  Does the operator or the tour have a disclaimer?  Common sense tells me that one is at risk of getting hit by a golf ball, at a golf course, but that’s me.
Should say something about liability on the ticket.  French laws likely are different.

Edited by I_HATE_SNOW, 02 October 2018 - 08:00 AM.


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#68 MtlJeff

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:04 AM

View Postimakaveli, on 02 October 2018 - 12:31 AM, said:

Probably they will do something about it after the first death, acting surprised it happened.

I post a lot about how fans will line up in a tunnel when a guy is hitting an escape shot. Even from 200+yds away. Very little room for error , someone will mishit a ball and hit a fan in the face eventually.

It's unlikely but over time the improbable becomes probable. And it only needs to happen once

It's stupid that the events allow fans to do that and they've been fortunate so far
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#69 new2g0lf

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:09 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 02 October 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

Yelling fore from 320 out makes zero.   Zero.  Read it. Zero difference.  You cannot hear it at that distance without a favorable wind or canyon echo to carry the sound.  Easily proven in a controlled test.  Remember All hat crowd noise.  I doubt you could hear the person beside you unless they were talking very loudly.  

Should you shout it ?  Sure.  As habit. Yes.  But it makes no difference in making Driver shot.  Par 3.  Yes. That matters. You can see the person on the tee. Not from 320 out.

That being said I feel terrible for the lady. But it is akin to standing in the street . I'd never stand 300 out at a tour event. Tee box or greenside only for me.

Exactly and in my experience, only experienced golfers know that when hearing "Fore" to lower their head and cover it.  Most peoples reactions is to look up in the air and try to find the ball in the sky.  

I feel horrible for the woman, but you can't be that close to the action and not pay attention.  For years it was expected baseball and hockey fans needed to be vigilant to protect themselves from shots into the stands and now there is glass and netting to protect them at the most vulnerable seats but people can still get hit.  Might have to keep the crowds further away from the course, protect them with some netting.
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#70 Naptime

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:20 AM

Awful injury but getting hit by a ball is a reasonable expectation if you are down range of the player.  Pro golfers routinely miss fairways. Fans need to pay attention and watch the tee box when players are teeing off. Then turn away and cover their heads if the ball is coming their way.


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#71 MtlJeff

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:21 AM

At the very least the organizers should be trying to clear common landing areas. You have people surrounding the green on a driveable par 4. ....I mean it's like shooting arrows at an opposing army in "Braveheart" or something lol.

Golf events haven't done enough to protect fans and maybe this will be a wake-up call

Being aware isn't really enough as a fan. I mean we lose sight of our own shots in the air sometimes. They can't track every ball hit.


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#72 cvhookem63

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:28 AM

View PostGolfer4Life, on 02 October 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

The Daily Mail is reporting the woman lost her vision and it is filing a lawsuit.

I have a question for the members who fancy tour events on a regular basis.  Does the operator or the tour have a disclaimer?  Common sense tells me that one is at risk of getting hit by a golf ball, at a golf course, but that’s me.

Oh yeah. There is all kinds of language written on the back of a PGA Tour ticket.

From the PGA Tour website - https://www.pgatour....icketterms.html

"By entering onto the grounds of the Tournament using this ticket, you acknowledge and agree to the following for yourself and on behalf of any accompanying minor (who shall also be deemed to be “you” for purposes of the following): YOU ASSUME ALL RISK AND DANGER ARISING OUT OF YOUR ATTENDANCE INCLUDING LOSS OF YOUR PERSONAL PROPERTY, INJURY, OR DEATH FROM A GOLF SHOT OR BY OTHER SPECTATORS OR PLAYERS, AND YOU HEREBY RELEASE TOUR, THE HOST ORGANIZATION, THE HOST SITE, TELEVISION BROADCASTERS, SPONSORS, VENDORS AND THEIR RESPECTIVE AFFILIATES, EMPLOYEES AND AGENTS, AND ALL VOLUNTEERS, PARTICIPATING PLAYERS AND CADDIES, FROM ANY AND ALL LIABILITIES ARISING OUT OF SUCH LOSSES, INJURIES OR DEATH....."

And then it goes on to spell out how you can and can't use content recorded at the tournament among many other things.
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#73 Austincountyag

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:34 AM

I feel bad the lady lost her eye, but their is nothing that can be done to prevent it from happening, except removing fans from fairways which will not happen. That would drastically reduce the # of people that could attend an event. And to even suggest netting on the course is ridiculous......It is sad, but getting hit comes with the territory of standing near the landing zone next to a fairway. It is called being aware of your surroundings and paying attention. If you lose the ball of the driver and can't see it, you duck and put your head down.

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#74 Rano85

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:39 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 02 October 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

Yelling fore from 320 out makes zero.   Zero.  Read it. Zero difference.  You cannot hear it at that distance without a favorable wind or canyon echo to carry the sound.  Easily proven in a controlled test.  Remember All hat crowd noise.  I doubt you could hear the person beside you unless they were talking very loudly.  

Should you shout it ?  Sure.  As habit. Yes.  But it makes no difference in making Driver shot.  Par 3.  Yes. That matters. You can see the person on the tee. Not from 320 out.

That being said I feel terrible for the lady. But it is akin to standing in the street . I'd never stand 300 out at a tour event. Tee box or greenside only for me.

Of course it makes a difference. When the player/caddie shout fore, the spectators around the teebox start shouting fore, which then causes spectators further down the hole to shout fore, and so on. The chain reaction moves down the hole faster than the ball. People still have to be paying attention, but it definitely helps. I literally witnessed (and was a part of) exactly this happening over the weekend.

Edited by Rano85, 02 October 2018 - 08:41 AM.


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#75 cinnepa

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:48 AM

same language is on lift tickets when you purchase for skiing....means nothing. you can still sue....and win.

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#76 Stall

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:51 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 02 October 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

Yelling fore from 320 out makes zero.   Zero.  Read it. Zero difference.  You cannot hear it at that distance without a favorable wind or canyon echo to carry the sound.  Easily proven in a controlled test.  Remember All hat crowd noise.  I doubt you could hear the person beside you unless they were talking very loudly.  

Should you shout it ?  Sure.  As habit. Yes.  But it makes no difference in making Driver shot.  Par 3.  Yes. That matters. You can see the person on the tee. Not from 320 out.

That being said I feel terrible for the lady. But it is akin to standing in the street . I'd never stand 300 out at a tour event. Tee box or greenside only for me.

I don't agree with that entirely. Sure, she might not have heard it, but a big fore shout and someone closer to the action hears is, the crowd start ducking and it's a domino effect of everyone covering their head. I've seen it time and again at the 18th at St Andrews.

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#77 c7015

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 08:53 AM

View Postgolfandfishing, on 02 October 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

View PostAuldPLO Swiss Golftrotter, on 02 October 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

View Postgolfandfishing, on 02 October 2018 - 07:09 AM, said:

Are you sure she is losing her eye?  Article posted after it happened said it was not serious. This was days ago so obviously things could change. She can sue, she will probably win something in a settlement with the Euro Tour's insurance company. Koepka won't be involved in any proceedings.
It has been released today in french medias.

Woof. That's a tough way to lose an eye. Not a good week for Koepka. Cost a lady her eye, fights with DJ, gets stomped on the RC. Regroup, come back next June for another major I guess.

going to be happy he doesn't get the attention he thinks he should ....

would be a whole other story if his profile was as big as someone else.

Edited by c7015, 02 October 2018 - 08:53 AM.

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#78 imakaveli

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:09 AM

View PostMtlJeff, on 02 October 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

View Postimakaveli, on 02 October 2018 - 12:31 AM, said:

Probably they will do something about it after the first death, acting surprised it happened.

I post a lot about how fans will line up in a tunnel when a guy is hitting an escape shot. Even from 200+yds away. Very little room for error , someone will mishit a ball and hit a fan in the face eventually.

It's unlikely but over time the improbable becomes probable. And it only needs to happen once

It's stupid that the events allow fans to do that and they've been fortunate so far

100% agree

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#79 Naptime

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:11 AM

In addition to yelling fore, marshalls wave their big wands right or left and the player points right or left. Seems visible if one pays attention.

Edited by Naptime, 02 October 2018 - 09:11 AM.


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#80 Rano85

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:14 AM

View PostNaptime, on 02 October 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

In addition to yelling fore, marshalls wave their big wands right or left and the player points right or left. Seems visible if one pays attention.

There were surprisingly few marshals at LGN.

Edited by Rano85, 02 October 2018 - 09:25 AM.


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#81 r32

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:17 AM

View Postcinnepa, on 02 October 2018 - 08:48 AM, said:

same language is on lift tickets when you purchase for skiing....means nothing. you can still sue....and win.

Very true. Here is a good article on a similar incident in pro baseball, and a breakdown of disclaimers.

https://www.insureon...-liability.aspx

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#82 ib0o0

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:21 AM

View PostI_HATE_SNOW, on 02 October 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

View PostGolfer4Life, on 02 October 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

The Daily Mail is reporting the woman lost her vision and it is filing a lawsuit.

I have a question for the members who fancy tour events on a regular basis.  Does the operator or the tour have a disclaimer?  Common sense tells me that one is at risk of getting hit by a golf ball, at a golf course, but that’s me.
Should say something about liability on the ticket.  French laws likely are different.

Shouldn’t Koepka as a member of the PGA have some kind of insurance?

At least in Spain as long as you want to play you have to pay your yearly insurance, just in case something like this happens.

I’m assuming pros stick to the same rules?
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#83 bscinstnct

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:22 AM

Hopefully, they can restore her vision once the trauma heals.

I can't see any liability.

But, the organizers should offer to pay her medical bills. Although, that could be seen as acknowledgement that they are liable.

Either way, hope she will recover sight in the eye.

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#84 larrybud

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:40 AM

View PostMtlJeff, on 01 October 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

But legally someone cannot waive their right to an outcome like being hit hard enough to cause blindness. I don't think so in France anyway. Here we have laws like that

You're not waiving your "right to an outcome", you're actively assuming the risk of entering the premises.  People hit golf balls 100 yards off line all the time, where do you want spectators to be?

This is a pure junk lawsuit.

Edited by larrybud, 02 October 2018 - 09:42 AM.


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#85 cgbm

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:40 AM

Im going a different direction.

She went to a golf tournament to spectate.

Did she or anyone else expect the players to keep EVERY ball inside the ropes? That would have been mistake 1.

If this ball hit her in the arm would we be having this discussion? Probably not.

So because it hit her in the eye vice an arm or foot, the tour and or koepka are at fault?

How in any world could the tour or brooks controll where the ball hits the fan?

This was an unfortunate event and ended up with horrible consequences. But to say that anyone is at FAULT is a stretch.

Its ridiculous how people can sue for anything these days.

The secerity of the injury should have no bearing on liability. Weather it hit her in the arm or the eye the liability should be the same.

Heres a thought. If you dont want to get hit by an errant tee shot then maybe dont attend a golf event. Or dont stand at the landing zone. Or dont stand close to the rope.

Sorry if i offend anyone but i am sick of sue happy society blaming everyone for every unfortunate occurrence.

What happened out of the normalcy of spectator golf events that caused this to happen and would prove neglegance?


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#86 stanger37

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:44 AM

I hope she is ok and heals back to 100%

But I hope no one overreacts to this happening. How many Ryder Cups and President's Cups have done on without this happening? There are multiple golf tournaments every weekend and if this was that big of a problem, it would happened multiple times a month. It doesnt so there is no need to overreact. But that is the society that we live in so I wouldn't be surprised at a lawsuit.

There are more people at these tournaments, the odds go up. Just like the odds of drowning go up when you install a pool in your backyard. Let's not change anything because of this one freak case.
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#87 Oufcfan

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:44 AM

I’ve seen the video of the shot in question, not only is there a pretty decent shout of “fore left” from Koepka within about two seconds of hitting the ball, but he and others then repeat the shout, but louder.
By the time the ball hits the lady, there was a minimum of 5/6 loud shouts.



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#88 I_HATE_SNOW

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:45 AM

She isn't suing Brooks, just the European tour.

View PostOufcfan, on 02 October 2018 - 09:44 AM, said:

I've seen the video of the shot in question, not only is there a pretty decent shout of "fore left" from Koepka within about two seconds of hitting the ball, but he and others then repeat the shout, but louder.
By the time the ball hits the lady, there was a minimum of 5/6 loud shouts.
They should have texted her?

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#89 Golfer4Life

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:48 AM

View Postib0o0, on 02 October 2018 - 09:21 AM, said:

View PostI_HATE_SNOW, on 02 October 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

View PostGolfer4Life, on 02 October 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

The Daily Mail is reporting the woman lost her vision and it is filing a lawsuit.

I have a question for the members who fancy tour events on a regular basis.  Does the operator or the tour have a disclaimer?  Common sense tells me that one is at risk of getting hit by a golf ball, at a golf course, but that’s me.
Should say something about liability on the ticket.  French laws likely are different.

Shouldn’t Koepka as a member of the PGA have some kind of insurance?

At least in Spain as long as you want to play you have to pay your yearly insurance, just in case something like this happens.

I’m assuming pros stick to the same rules?

It would make sense to me.  I had liability insurance in my former job for those unforeseen situations.
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#90 Retsdon

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 09:56 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 02 October 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

Yelling fore from 320 out makes zero.   Zero.  Read it. Zero difference.  You cannot hear it at that distance without a favorable wind or canyon echo to carry the sound.  Easily proven in a controlled test.  Remember All hat crowd noise.  I doubt you could hear the person beside you unless they were talking very loudly.  

Should you shout it ?  Sure.  As habit. Yes.  But it makes no difference in making Driver shot.  Par 3.  Yes. That matters. You can see the person on the tee. Not from 320 out.

That being said I feel terrible for the lady. But it is akin to standing in the street . I’d never stand 300 out at a tour event. Tee box or greenside only for me.

As I posted up the thread, perhaps the answer is some kind of air horn that's obviously a warning note.


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