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Fan Hit by Koepka's Drive - **MERGED TOPICS**


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#31 nsxguy

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 10:05 PM

View PostMtlJeff, on 01 October 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

View Postnsxguy, on 01 October 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

View PostMtlJeff, on 01 October 2018 - 08:33 PM, said:

View Postsaksittb, on 01 October 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

That's bullxxxx. Spectators assume the risk of being down range on a golf course. It's like standing down a driving range asking to watch from out there. Koepka should not be responsible for that crap.

I doubt she would even sue Koepka. Most likely the tournament organizers.

People cannot sign away or waive basic human rights, it's illegal to even ask someone to do that in many countries (I assume France is one). Her case would just need to be that the tour knowingly put spectators in a position of danger, I believe. I'm not a lawyer but I believe that's what it is

To be honest I don't necessarily disagree. I've posted many times that golf tournaments allow fans to get too close, and someone would actually die one day

But legally someone cannot waive their right to an outcome like being hit hard enough to cause blindness. I don't think so in France anyway. Here we have laws like that

Jeff,

I'm no lawyer either but what "basic human right" would she have signed away or waived by buying her ticket ?

Most tickets for a whole variety of events acknowledge that there may be dangerous situations and the ticket holder hold the event harmless in case of injury.

She's not giving up any rights. She's acknowledging "stuff happens".

Now "negligence" is another story and if anyone can prove that the event should have and could have reasonably anticipated and prevented the event from happening that is another story.

I just read up on Brittany and the NHL did settle out of court but probably did so more for public relation issues than fear of losing in court.

Found this - https://www.law.du.e...5-Augustine.pdf

Didn't read it all but note the part that says "So where does the law stand on this issue? Consistently in favor of the teams, leagues, and/or event promoters. Courts operate under the premise that spectators assume the risk of
attending a game/event, and that it should be obvious to the spectator that a baseball, puck, tire,
or golf ball can hit them."

Being hit by a ball and getting bruised is one thing though, losing sight (suffering permanent damage) is another. I believe if you can prove in a court that this was a predictable outcome that was neglected you would have a case. As you mention. I think there's a fine line between risk you can assume and permanent damage that you cant be asked to waive

Like, getting hit by a puck that causes death is not something someone can waive I don't believe, even if the ticket states theres a risk of danger.

So this one might be a gray area. But I believe she's have a case, and at least get a settlement.

I may be wrong, I haven't read much on law in a few years

Different countries have different laws of course but if baseball is any sort of barometer for this sort of thing it would appear that if she gets a "settlement" it will be because the event organizer feels it would cost them more in negative publicity than it would to give her some ca$h.

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#32 Bingo1976

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 10:21 PM

I'd suspect that there may be a liability issue if there was no shout of fore from the players/marshals. Whilst all tickets will carry a level of disclaimer, I don't think you can waive your rights if there is shown to be negligence on the part of the organizers.

Very sad for the spectator who suffered a life changing injury - I don't think that a lot of people associate watching golf with the risk of serious injury, especially if they don't play it themselves.
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#33 ebrasmus21

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 10:39 PM

There have been a few comments regarding a warning or a hold-harmless agreement on a ticket stub.... those disclaimers are certainly not hold-harmless agreements and are not an effective legal defense.  Organizers can put whatever words they want on a ticket stub - they will still have to defend themselves if s*** hits the fan.
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#34 Bingo1976

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:28 PM

View Postebrasmus21, on 01 October 2018 - 10:39 PM, said:

There have been a few comments regarding a warning or a hold-harmless agreement on a ticket stub.... those disclaimers are certainly not hold-harmless agreements and are not an effective legal defense.  Organizers can put whatever words they want on a ticket stub - they will still have to defend themselves if s*** hits the fan.

I thought it was a golf ball?




Sorry
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#35 ebrasmus21

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:34 PM

View PostBingo1976, on 01 October 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

View Postebrasmus21, on 01 October 2018 - 10:39 PM, said:

There have been a few comments regarding a warning or a hold-harmless agreement on a ticket stub.... those disclaimers are certainly not hold-harmless agreements and are not an effective legal defense.  Organizers can put whatever words they want on a ticket stub - they will still have to defend themselves if s*** hits the fan.

I thought it was a golf ball?




Sorry

So it wasnít s*** hitting the fan?

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#36 Bunker2Bunker0no

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:35 PM

Feel very sorry for this lady and hopefully as Medic pointed out, maybe there is a procedure to restore her sight. Greenskeeper where I grew up wore a "Pirate patch" from losing an eye to a golf ball he lost right out of college. Irony was he said that he was playing his final round of golf before he was to ship off for Basic Training the next day, and then off for a tour in Vietnam...he always said, lost an eye but may have saved my life. So I have always been super vigilant of not hitting into groups and overly cautious of yelling Fore if I think it's even going to be remotely close on a wayward shot.

I was hit square in the left ear by a drive from Scott McCarron at a Sr event couple of years ago. Felt more like a baseball bat was the culprit, thick pair of Oakleys I was wearing at time helped lessen some of the blow up top, but my lower ear split open immediately. I never stand/sit in a landing area for this very reason but was with an old college buddy who was a 1st time tournament attendee and wanted to "get close to the action" all day. End of the day we walked from behind 17 tee to 18th fairway to watch the final group finish, par 5 with a blind tee shot....we couldn't see the tee and I mistakenly thought we were further up between driver landing area and the green. Langer was in final group and I saw a ball out of the corner of my eye fly behind us and heard the thud as it landed in the rough about 10ft behind us. After getting his attention, I called out to my buddy, hey we need to move further u..... Before I could finish the "up"..... BAM...the worst internal sound you can imagine and blood pouring down my neck. Thankfully no permanent damage, just a terrible headache and ringing in my ear for about 2 days. No Fore could be heard from tee and Marshals were busy trying to get a perimeter around the 1st ball to bother with watching for next one.

Be aware if you attend events, These Guys Are Good, but they hit the same foul balls that we all do. And avoid landing areas in fairway.

McCarron got a cherry lie off my noggin and was able to go for green in 2, make birdie and win in a playoff while I was in the First Aid station...didn't even get the "Ceremonial Signed Glove" ...lol

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#37 ssfranny

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Posted 01 October 2018 - 11:48 PM

Man this could mess with Koepkas head I know it would me.  Hope she doesnt lose sight over this.  Course or PGA will be liable.

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#38 imakaveli

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:31 AM

Probably they will do something about it after the first death, acting surprised it happened.

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#39 aarbro

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 12:36 AM

Did Brooks call Fore, or did he tour sauce it and just hold his club up? If she's looking to claim damages, that could be a critical point.

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#40 Double Gee

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:10 AM

According to the latest news reports. Sadly, the lady has lost the sight in one eye. She appreciates the gesture from Brooks of signing a golf glove as an apology but she will be sueing the tournament organisers.
Her complaint is that there was no warning whatsoever of the ball being offline and heading towards her position. She was given no chance to turn away, or cover her face. Neither those on the tee or other stewards shouted 'fore'.

As an aside, why do pro golfers think by giving a signed glove that makes it 'alright then' ?


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#41 i*windows

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 01:20 AM

here is a report
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#42 compton1977

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:27 AM

Why oh why can it not be mandatory that all players, caddies and Marshalls have to shout fore? I donít care if because they are 300 yards away they might not hear it, maybe they will hear and you could save some poor spectator an injury. Euro Tour players are very good and shouting fore PGA tour not so much. At least make the effort.

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#43 BigCat78

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:44 AM

I have been to multiple golf tournaments and one thing I have noticed is that people wander about oblivious to their surroundings.  Could this actually have been a case of someone not paying attention?  I don't know, but seems completely plausible in the day and age we live in.  In the grand scheme of things no one wants to see this happen to anyone and I hope everything works out for all parties.

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#44 MattyO1984

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:45 AM

Man that is awful news. Sadly, a serious injury like this seemed like it was only a matter of time. Best wishes to the lady.
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#45 Prntscrn

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 02:57 AM

Damn that sucks. Was so happy when I later that night read she was in hospital but ok with no serious injury, because it looked really really bad on TV.

A Swedish dude also got hit in the eye by DJ but he's fine though luckily.

Edited by Prntscrn, 02 October 2018 - 02:57 AM.


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#46 TheInfidel

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 03:56 AM

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#47 AndersUK

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 04:24 AM

For me the legal aspects are moot and it should never have reached this stage.  Although incredibly rare, a golf fan/spectator has received potentially life changing injuries.  The European Tour and respective organisers should be doing all they can to assist her.  The fact that they haven't even contacted her is probably what prompted the threat of legal action.  This is a wealthy sport!  I wouldn't be surprised if Brooks steps in to help.  If I was a multi-millionaire tour player and one of my wayward shots did that I wouldn't have even left the country or not at least without visiting the spectator again and providing the necessary assurances.
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#48 dcmidnight

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.
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#49 TheInfidel

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

*Edit - I've been told they did shout fore from the tee.  Didn't realise this.

Edited by TheInfidel, 02 October 2018 - 05:37 AM.

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#50 dcmidnight

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

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#51 TheInfidel

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:38 AM

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:36 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 October 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

View Postdcmidnight, on 02 October 2018 - 05:09 AM, said:

Oridinarily I would agree they should be yelling FORE - and they should. But she was standing about 300+ yards downrange with the wind blowing. The 7th tee was right nearby and that spot was right off another tee box, I think the 12th hole. *Massive* crowds. Would she have even been able to hear someone yelling fore from the 6th tee box? And if she did, would you know quickly enough where it was coming from?

IMO this is just one of those things that can happen at a golf tournament.

I think your point is a good one, and I don't disagree with it.  What someone is going to say about risk mitigation is that a seatbelt might not save your life in a 100mph car crash but you put it on anyway.  Could it be seen as negligent if a ball was knowingly hit towards a crowd of people and there was nothing done (even in vain) to alert them?  If you hit it towards a crowd and just pick up your tee peg because it's far away or noisy that might not be good enough in a French court.

Right, so now we're basically saying "He should have yelled even if it made no difference because legally at least it will look like he bothered to care"

Pretty much yeah.
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#52 Davethegolfer

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 05:51 AM

Very sad news indeed and life changing for the lady and BK is suspect. With all the technology we have now there is absolutely no reason why, at big events, there cannot be an audible or visual warning to the crowd when balls are off line and a hazard to the crowd.

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#53 Birdie Mac

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:05 AM

I feel bad for both parties, more so, of course, for the lady that lost her eye. I'm always afraid of being hit by errant shots or of hitting other golfers when I'm playing.

All of us should keep this in mind the next time we get frustrated at a slow playing group in front of us and think about hitting into the group to get their attention. Nobody wants to have to live with something like this.

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#54 rcb1586

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:31 AM

View PostDouble Gee, on 02 October 2018 - 01:10 AM, said:

According to the latest news reports. Sadly, the lady has lost the sight in one eye. She appreciates the gesture from Brooks of signing a golf glove as an apology but she will be sueing the tournament organisers.
Her complaint is that there was no warning whatsoever of the ball being offline and heading towards her position. She was given no chance to turn away, or cover her face. Neither those on the tee or other stewards shouted 'fore'.

As an aside, why do pro golfers think by giving a signed glove that makes it 'alright then' ?
I've never heard a tour player say, "Well, they got a signed glove out of it so they should be fine."
It's a small gesture and form of apology. There's not much else they can do during the middle of a tournament.
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#55 justasgood

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:36 AM

Coming soon, either all spectators are required to wear helmets or the golf ball will need to be marshmallows.

The latter probably not, the helmets.......hmmm

Edited by justasgood, 02 October 2018 - 06:37 AM.


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#56 AuldPLO Swiss Golftrotter

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 06:50 AM

As you may know or not, the lady who was hit by Koepka's wild drive on hole 6 on Friday morning session got her eye lost. She's apparently looking for some legal procedure against the organisation.

For my guide, is there any footage showing Brooks Koepka shouting "Fore Left" or anything like that ? I was in front of my screen and I'm pretty sure he did !

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#57 Maximilian

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:03 AM

I'm always surprised when watching golf on TV that more spectators aren't hurt. Wonder if this is going to change anything, or if there has to be a fatal accident first? Not that I have any solutions or am blaming anyone, but it just seems like accidents and lawsuits waiting to happen.

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#58 3leggedpony

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:08 AM

I am sure that even if Koepka didn't, his caddy or one of the officials on the tee will have. That said when he's driving it 300+ and there are cheers all around the course there's no guarantee she would have heard the call.
From her interview it seems she's only looking to have her medical bills covered which seems more than fair

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#59 golfandfishing

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:09 AM

Are you sure she is losing her eye?  Article posted after it happened said it was not serious. This was days ago so obviously things could change. She can sue, she will probably win something in a settlement with the Euro Tourís insurance company. Koepka wonít be involved in any proceedings.

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#60 bladehunter

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 07:10 AM

Always thought the same.  

Moreso ... how many times do we see fans lined up to form a tunnel while someone blasts a long iron out from the junk ?  Everybody hits a shank now and again.  One day someone willl shank one and kill a person instantly.   Itís literaly a matter of time.

Edited by bladehunter, 02 October 2018 - 07:10 AM.

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