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Help me understand why kids walk off putts


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#91 heavy_hitter

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Posted 21 September 2018 - 12:05 PM

View Postdpb5031, on 21 September 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 21 September 2018 - 11:40 AM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 20 September 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

View PostBertGA, on 20 September 2018 - 01:43 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 20 September 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

The tour pros don't have the line on the ball for alignment.  They may use it for that, but not why they have it.  They have the line on the ball to make sure it doesn't wobble.  The ball not being struck properly can cause pace problems.  A wobbling ball can take 6"-10" off of pace.

https://youtu.be/t7RrP1DtM3o

By the time the ball wobbles, it's too late to do anything about it. Not sure how that is helping them, other than to know to correct it on the next putt.

At their level, I would have to think they know how well they hit it based on contact. But maybe I'm wrong.

C'mon HH.  There is no way in hell tour pro's have the line on the ball to check the wobble factor.  Ok, maybe Bryson Dechambeau does, but he's a nutcase.

I could just see a pro being pissed that he made a putt but the line was wobbling.  :stop:

Haney was also talking about this on his radio show the other day.  Said the same exact thing.  I will adjust my original statement because I am sure many do use as an alignment aid as well.  It is going to depend if you are a line putter or a spot putter.  Still, many will glance to see if they putt a good stroke on the ball which the line helps in determining.

I like the line.  Once you're over the ball you can just visualizes a T-Square strike.  It helps you to build a consistent stance around the correct target line, and can also help to keep your eyes nice and quiet by giving you something specific to focus on.

Did you watch the video link?  I though it was very interesting that he said everyone should line up differently according to how their subconscious evaluated the putt.  Most teachers teach eyes above the ball, but that doesn't work for everyone.


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#92 kekoa

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Posted 21 September 2018 - 12:14 PM

What bugs me more is that you would believe anything Haney would say.   :taunt:

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#93 heavy_hitter

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Posted 21 September 2018 - 12:20 PM

View Postkekoa, on 21 September 2018 - 12:14 PM, said:

What bugs me more is that you would believe anything Haney would say.   :taunt:

Haney is awesome.  Has a lot of insight.  He has a good show.

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#94 DeeBee30

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 01:30 AM

View Postisaacbm, on 20 September 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

So let’s say  You pace off 10 steps.

Is it up hill , downhill, sidehill?
Is it into the grain? Down grain?  
Is the green wet? Dry?  
Are the greens running eight? 10? 12?

How on earth can you know how hard to hit it just based on  “30 feet”?
An uphill put into the grain  might be running five and a downhill putt down grain  might be running 18!
If you exert the same amount of force to each condition, two balls  are literally  going to end up 20 feet apart!

And as far as the idea of not stepping on somebody’s line goes, you don’t know where their  line is going to be
because they haven’t putted  yet.  Their 30 footer might be pulled  or hit too hard and they end up right where you walked.
That’s why it’s important to always be aware of  “Thru-lines”.

A good rule  when reading putts on longer putts is generally stay out of a 10 foot Circle from the hole  as much as possible .

Sorry I'm a little late to this party...

isaacbm, I'm not sure I understand why this bothers you so much.  I fully agree with the others' comments that gathering data about the length of a putt is like using a range finder, GPS device or even the yardage markers in the fairway to determine yardage to the green/pin.  Few golfers these days eyeball the yardage for the entire round - they'll at least refer to yardage stakes/discs or sprinkler heads, so why is it bad to know the distance of a putt, too?  

Personally, I preface every round with a series of reference putts from a set of backswing lengths on the flattest area of the practice green.  That gives me several sets of distances that I know I can consistently hit *flat* putts on those greens.  I then assess what percentage to add or subtract for uphill and downhill putts on 1- and 2-degree sloping greens.  I putt mostly on bent or poa annua greens, but if I travel to a course with bermuda greens, I'll also determine the effect of grain (with vs. into) on putt speed/length.  This is about 75% of my pre-round putting warmup, and it takes about 10-15 minutes.  Armed with this information, I can calculate how much to increase or decrease the length of one of my "stock" backswings to accommodate the distance and pace of most putts inside 50-60 feet, assuming the actual greens are similar to the practice green.

On the course,  I try to be first to the green so I can walk off my putt distances while others are either chipping or lining up putts, but if this would cause me to walk in another player's line (not a *possible* future line for a ball that hasn't been hit yet), I'll walk off the putt on a parallel path that is the same distance.  All of this adds maybe 5-10 seconds to my putting routine, but I'm mindful of pace of play and make sure to do it quickly while waiting for others to play.  I generally don't walk off any putt that I gauge to be under 3 paces long.

Ultimately, using this method means I'm rarely grinding over length of putts.  I can focus on the line because I have the distance pegged.  I almost never leave putts more than a few feet long or short, and even those are mostly on super long lag putts that fall way outside my reference backswings.  With this, I've virtually eliminated 3-putts and almost always leave my second putts within 2-4 feet.

If you happen to play entirely by feel, with no inputs to give you distances for shots, that's awesome for you and your style of play.  But, as long as players aren't killing pace of play or impeding other golfers' games, why is it important to anyone else *how* they play their game?  If they can reduce their number of putts from something like 37-38 to around 31-33 because they're not leaving putts 10 feet long or short and reducing 3-putts, that's good for their game, as well as for the pace of play, which is good for all of us.  Playing by feel vs. being more analytical isn't a badge of honor...to each their own.
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#95 BiggErn

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 09:57 AM

View PostDeeBee30, on 17 October 2018 - 01:30 AM, said:

View Postisaacbm, on 20 September 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

So let’s say  You pace off 10 steps.

Is it up hill , downhill, sidehill?
Is it into the grain? Down grain?  
Is the green wet? Dry?  
Are the greens running eight? 10? 12?

How on earth can you know how hard to hit it just based on  “30 feet”?
An uphill put into the grain  might be running five and a downhill putt down grain  might be running 18!
If you exert the same amount of force to each condition, two balls  are literally  going to end up 20 feet apart!

And as far as the idea of not stepping on somebody’s line goes, you don’t know where their  line is going to be
because they haven’t putted  yet.  Their 30 footer might be pulled  or hit too hard and they end up right where you walked.
That’s why it’s important to always be aware of  “Thru-lines”.

A good rule  when reading putts on longer putts is generally stay out of a 10 foot Circle from the hole  as much as possible .

Sorry I'm a little late to this party...

isaacbm, I'm not sure I understand why this bothers you so much.  I fully agree with the others' comments that gathering data about the length of a putt is like using a range finder, GPS device or even the yardage markers in the fairway to determine yardage to the green/pin.  Few golfers these days eyeball the yardage for the entire round - they'll at least refer to yardage stakes/discs or sprinkler heads, so why is it bad to know the distance of a putt, too?  

Personally, I preface every round with a series of reference putts from a set of backswing lengths on the flattest area of the practice green.  That gives me several sets of distances that I know I can consistently hit *flat* putts on those greens.  I then assess what percentage to add or subtract for uphill and downhill putts on 1- and 2-degree sloping greens.  I putt mostly on bent or poa annua greens, but if I travel to a course with bermuda greens, I'll also determine the effect of grain (with vs. into) on putt speed/length.  This is about 75% of my pre-round putting warmup, and it takes about 10-15 minutes.  Armed with this information, I can calculate how much to increase or decrease the length of one of my "stock" backswings to accommodate the distance and pace of most putts inside 50-60 feet, assuming the actual greens are similar to the practice green.

On the course,  I try to be first to the green so I can walk off my putt distances while others are either chipping or lining up putts, but if this would cause me to walk in another player's line (not a *possible* future line for a ball that hasn't been hit yet), I'll walk off the putt on a parallel path that is the same distance.  All of this adds maybe 5-10 seconds to my putting routine, but I'm mindful of pace of play and make sure to do it quickly while waiting for others to play.  I generally don't walk off any putt that I gauge to be under 3 paces long.

Ultimately, using this method means I'm rarely grinding over length of putts.  I can focus on the line because I have the distance pegged.  I almost never leave putts more than a few feet long or short, and even those are mostly on super long lag putts that fall way outside my reference backswings.  With this, I've virtually eliminated 3-putts and almost always leave my second putts within 2-4 feet.

If you happen to play entirely by feel, with no inputs to give you distances for shots, that's awesome for you and your style of play.  But, as long as players aren't killing pace of play or impeding other golfers' games, why is it important to anyone else *how* they play their game?  If they can reduce their number of putts from something like 37-38 to around 31-33 because they're not leaving putts 10 feet long or short and reducing 3-putts, that's good for their game, as well as for the pace of play, which is good for all of us.  Playing by feel vs. being more analytical isn't a badge of honor...to each their own.

Comparing full shots to putts is completely asinine imo. I doubt any person knows the distance of a full putt but do know the distance of a full 9 iron. Why? Because it’s relevant. Putting is 99% feel. Seeing a line and feeling the stroke it will take to cover the required distance. How do you gauge a 30 ft straight putt vs a 30 ft putt uphill with 6 ft of break? Surely they’re not the same and there’s no formula to come up with a number. You see it, feel it, hit it.


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#96 mrshinsa

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 11:50 AM

I say as long as it's done within 45 seconds its fine.  They can pull out the range finder or go over their green reading map, as long as it's done within 45 seconds.  They can do back flips and cartwheels from the ball to the hole, as long as it's done within 45 seconds.

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#97 DeeBee30

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 01:46 PM

View PostBiggErn, on 17 October 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

View PostDeeBee30, on 17 October 2018 - 01:30 AM, said:

View Postisaacbm, on 20 September 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

So let’s say  You pace off 10 steps.

Is it up hill , downhill, sidehill?
Is it into the grain? Down grain?  
Is the green wet? Dry?  
Are the greens running eight? 10? 12?

How on earth can you know how hard to hit it just based on  “30 feet”?
An uphill put into the grain  might be running five and a downhill putt down grain  might be running 18!
If you exert the same amount of force to each condition, two balls  are literally  going to end up 20 feet apart!

And as far as the idea of not stepping on somebody’s line goes, you don’t know where their  line is going to be
because they haven’t putted  yet.  Their 30 footer might be pulled  or hit too hard and they end up right where you walked.
That’s why it’s important to always be aware of  “Thru-lines”.

A good rule  when reading putts on longer putts is generally stay out of a 10 foot Circle from the hole  as much as possible .

Sorry I'm a little late to this party...

isaacbm, I'm not sure I understand why this bothers you so much.  I fully agree with the others' comments that gathering data about the length of a putt is like using a range finder, GPS device or even the yardage markers in the fairway to determine yardage to the green/pin.  Few golfers these days eyeball the yardage for the entire round - they'll at least refer to yardage stakes/discs or sprinkler heads, so why is it bad to know the distance of a putt, too?  

Personally, I preface every round with a series of reference putts from a set of backswing lengths on the flattest area of the practice green.  That gives me several sets of distances that I know I can consistently hit *flat* putts on those greens.  I then assess what percentage to add or subtract for uphill and downhill putts on 1- and 2-degree sloping greens.  I putt mostly on bent or poa annua greens, but if I travel to a course with bermuda greens, I'll also determine the effect of grain (with vs. into) on putt speed/length.  This is about 75% of my pre-round putting warmup, and it takes about 10-15 minutes.  Armed with this information, I can calculate how much to increase or decrease the length of one of my "stock" backswings to accommodate the distance and pace of most putts inside 50-60 feet, assuming the actual greens are similar to the practice green.

On the course,  I try to be first to the green so I can walk off my putt distances while others are either chipping or lining up putts, but if this would cause me to walk in another player's line (not a *possible* future line for a ball that hasn't been hit yet), I'll walk off the putt on a parallel path that is the same distance.  All of this adds maybe 5-10 seconds to my putting routine, but I'm mindful of pace of play and make sure to do it quickly while waiting for others to play.  I generally don't walk off any putt that I gauge to be under 3 paces long.

Ultimately, using this method means I'm rarely grinding over length of putts.  I can focus on the line because I have the distance pegged.  I almost never leave putts more than a few feet long or short, and even those are mostly on super long lag putts that fall way outside my reference backswings.  With this, I've virtually eliminated 3-putts and almost always leave my second putts within 2-4 feet.

If you happen to play entirely by feel, with no inputs to give you distances for shots, that's awesome for you and your style of play.  But, as long as players aren't killing pace of play or impeding other golfers' games, why is it important to anyone else *how* they play their game?  If they can reduce their number of putts from something like 37-38 to around 31-33 because they're not leaving putts 10 feet long or short and reducing 3-putts, that's good for their game, as well as for the pace of play, which is good for all of us.  Playing by feel vs. being more analytical isn't a badge of honor...to each their own.

Comparing full shots to putts is completely asinine imo. I doubt any person knows the distance of a full putt but do know the distance of a full 9 iron. Why? Because it’s relevant. Putting is 99% feel. Seeing a line and feeling the stroke it will take to cover the required distance. How do you gauge a 30 ft straight putt vs a 30 ft putt uphill with 6 ft of break? Surely they’re not the same and there’s no formula to come up with a number. You see it, feel it, hit it.

We can agree to disagree.  I think knowing the distance for a full putt is exactly the same as knowing the distance for a  full 9i.  The only difference is that I've worked out a definition of what a full putt is for me and can add to or subtract from it as needed.  

Some players rely more on feel, some rely more on mechanics.  I would argue that many feel players probably have some subconscious mechanical calculations going on in their heads, which then guides their bodies through the resulting stroke.  For instance, if you're standing over a 20 footer, you've ingrained a backswing of a certain length for that putt by practicing on the putting green (or from the thousands of other putts you've hit over time).  You see it's an uphill breaker, and you subconsciously give it a little more oomph than a flat 20-footer would require.  I do the same, but I've premeasured how far a backswing to the inside of my right foot will travel and simply shorten the backswing by 1 inch. I can absolutely gauge a 30-foot uphill putt vs a straight putt, based on the pre-round putting routine I mentioned.  If it's uphill on what I gauge to be a 1-degree slope, I add 25% more distance and adjust my backswing accordingly to that new distance (i.e.: add 3 inches to the backswing). Left-to-right slider?  I approximate that the effective distance is 3 feet shorter and deduct that because the putt will run out more at the hole (so I shorten the backswing by another inch).  The bottom line is that it's not feel for me because I'm not a feel player - I use repeatable mechanics based on practice and prior experience.  While you may do all this subconsciously (feel), I do the calculations in my head in a matter of seconds while reading the putt (mechanics).

That holds true from tee to green; if I need to take a little off of a 9-iron, I choke down half an inch instead of trying to feel a slightly shorter shot.  For short wedges (40 to 90 yds), I use the Pelz clock method with 4 different wedges to replicate fairly consistent results as long as I execute the shot.  For pitches inside 40 yds and chips, I know the carry and *general* roll-out distances (depending on green firmness) for every club in my bag when hit with a 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full chipping or pitching stroke.  The way my mind works, I'm at my best when I have information - I can then plug that into my mental computer and draw from my inventory of shot options to make my best attempt.  

And I know the old argument about throwing a ball: I wouldn't pace off the distance before tossing it to you.  My argument is that, if I had to hit a 4-1/4 inch spot on you and we were counting the number of attempts before I hit it, I just might be better served to practice tosses from different distances to know how big a swing and what release point would get me closest to that spot in the fewest number of tries.

I don't get why you seem to think it's not OK for players to play this way, and I don't understand why this elicits such a visceral reaction from some people.  I don't argue that is asinine to play with an understanding of how far you have to hit the ball with 13 of your 14 clubs, but then totally abandon that approach once you have a putter in your hand.  Is it also wrong that some people prefer mallet putters over blades?  Or jumbo grips over standard?  No. You figure out what helps you get the most from your own game and you roll with it.  There is no right or wrong - if it works for you, it's fine as long as it doesn't disrupt teh game for other people.

Edited by DeeBee30, 17 October 2018 - 01:49 PM.

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#98 CTgolf

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 03:55 PM

Putting is not “99% feel”.

The average distance of a putt made on the PGA Tour is a little over 4 feet; for an amateur it is most likely much shorter.  There is no “feel” needed to sink a 3 footer.

If you are outside of 15 feet the probability of sinking the putt is < 20%, and getting inside a 3 foot radius is paramount.  Speed control therefore is the most critical aspect of long putts, and knowing the length of a putt can only help.

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