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Blades and the search for "game improvement"


272 replies to this topic

#241 BiggErn

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 05:06 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 04:53 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 09 February 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 08 February 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostMelloYello, on 08 February 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

To be 100% clear I am not advocating for any of the following:

(1) People only carrying 4-irons
(2) People not playing equipment designed after the year 2000
(3) Hostility towards OEMs for trying to make money

I'm also not advocating for:

(1) The average player obsessing about having the latest driver
(2) The average player obsessing about forgiveness in their 7i-Pw
(3) And average player trusting blindly what the OEMs say in their ads


I don't want to refute straw-man arguments so I just won't make any attempt to. The truth is that we all probably take more or less the same views on equipment:

--Enjoy it.
--Buy new stuff when you have disposable cash
--Don't get too obsessed with new tech


What I advise are really the 2 common-sense ideas I think we all probably support:

(1) We be reasonable and measured when we discuss the actual impact of equipment and how much it's likely to improve our abilities.

(2) We remind average players that playing is likely to be of more value than shopping because not only will playing lead to more significant improvements compared with equipment changes but it also has the added benefit that it takes one's mind off of their sticks and puts it in a healthier place.



In my particular case, I've elected to "upgrade" my bag in almost every spot after being more or less pretty constant going back 5-6 years. After finding a set of irons and a putter last year, both of which I imagine I'll play with for an extended time, I've elected to experiment with a couple T-MB clubs to see if there's any advantage and I've moved from my 913 woods into the "new" M3 models because, well, I can. I'm an avid golfer so every once in awhile it's time to rejuvenate the bag and spend a little money on stuff because that's part of the fun.

But I 100% acknowledge that the hard part is not finding new stuff. The hard part is getting it right and staying away from Ebay so you don't feel compelled to make the same changes next year and the year after. My hope is that I put together a bag that can take me through the next 3 years. If that happens, I'll be happy.

Am I swapping clubs because I totally believe it'll make me better? Eh, if I'm honest I'm probably doing just because I can. I don't want to play with the same clubs forever. It's really that simple.

I have my take as well

(1) Unless you strike virtually EVERY shot dead solid there is no benefit to playing a MB iron.

(2) Playing and practicing with a MB iron will not make you a better ball striker.

I love the comments about how “MB’s make me focus more” or “my mishits are better” etc.

Why do they sell those tiny irons to teach people how to hit the center then ? It’s the same concept.

Cut your power steering cables. You’ll become 100x better at driving on the highway because it’ll be so much harder you’ll focus so much more. Hm.....

Anything that triggers fear doesn’t make you better at anything.

Terrible analogy.  The best drivers on earth prefer a quick ratio manual steering box and a manual transmission.   Why ? Control.  I know. I build some of their cars.

If fear enters your head it’s not the clubs fault.  That’s the mental issues anyone can have. No matter the club


Irons like this are just another option in fitting.  They fit some better than others.  If they don’t fit you cool.  But don’t poo poo the fact that they fit others just fine. And it’s not handicap related .  It’s more speed related than anything as pertaining to what the longest iron you carry is.


It’s more contact related. If solid contact isn’t almost automatic then you’re playing something just to be playing it. Looks, cool factor, whatever but it’s not performance.


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#242 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 05:13 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 04:53 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 09 February 2019 - 03:17 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 03:15 PM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 08 February 2019 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostMelloYello, on 08 February 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

To be 100% clear I am not advocating for any of the following:

(1) People only carrying 4-irons
(2) People not playing equipment designed after the year 2000
(3) Hostility towards OEMs for trying to make money

I'm also not advocating for:

(1) The average player obsessing about having the latest driver
(2) The average player obsessing about forgiveness in their 7i-Pw
(3) And average player trusting blindly what the OEMs say in their ads


I don't want to refute straw-man arguments so I just won't make any attempt to. The truth is that we all probably take more or less the same views on equipment:

--Enjoy it.
--Buy new stuff when you have disposable cash
--Don't get too obsessed with new tech


What I advise are really the 2 common-sense ideas I think we all probably support:

(1) We be reasonable and measured when we discuss the actual impact of equipment and how much it's likely to improve our abilities.

(2) We remind average players that playing is likely to be of more value than shopping because not only will playing lead to more significant improvements compared with equipment changes but it also has the added benefit that it takes one's mind off of their sticks and puts it in a healthier place.



In my particular case, I've elected to "upgrade" my bag in almost every spot after being more or less pretty constant going back 5-6 years. After finding a set of irons and a putter last year, both of which I imagine I'll play with for an extended time, I've elected to experiment with a couple T-MB clubs to see if there's any advantage and I've moved from my 913 woods into the "new" M3 models because, well, I can. I'm an avid golfer so every once in awhile it's time to rejuvenate the bag and spend a little money on stuff because that's part of the fun.

But I 100% acknowledge that the hard part is not finding new stuff. The hard part is getting it right and staying away from Ebay so you don't feel compelled to make the same changes next year and the year after. My hope is that I put together a bag that can take me through the next 3 years. If that happens, I'll be happy.

Am I swapping clubs because I totally believe it'll make me better? Eh, if I'm honest I'm probably doing just because I can. I don't want to play with the same clubs forever. It's really that simple.

I have my take as well

(1) Unless you strike virtually EVERY shot dead solid there is no benefit to playing a MB iron.

(2) Playing and practicing with a MB iron will not make you a better ball striker.

I love the comments about how “MB’s make me focus more” or “my mishits are better” etc.

Why do they sell those tiny irons to teach people how to hit the center then ? It’s the same concept.

Cut your power steering cables. You’ll become 100x better at driving on the highway because it’ll be so much harder you’ll focus so much more. Hm.....

Anything that triggers fear doesn’t make you better at anything.

Terrible analogy.  The best drivers on earth prefer a quick ratio manual steering box and a manual transmission.   Why ? Control.  I know. I build some of their cars.

If fear enters your head it’s not the clubs fault.  That’s the mental issues anyone can have. No matter the club


Irons like this are just another option in fitting.  They fit some better than others.  If they don’t fit you cool.  But don’t poo poo the fact that they fit others just fine. And it’s not handicap related .  It’s more speed related than anything as pertaining to what the longest iron you carry is.

Right, because they’re the best drivers on earth. That’s the point. That setup doesn’t cause fear in them. If you put me in that car on a busy highway I’d be scared to death and much better off in my automatic.

If a player looks at a blade and is afraid of its consequence on his or her game they won’t get better practicing on them. Everyone is different.  Some people are like you, but a lot of people don’t want the gear built for the best people on earth at task X. They’re scared of it. And that’s fine, but we can’t pretend it’s as simple as “good player blade, bad player CB” or “get better by smashing blade”.  It’s *all* about the comfort level (read: lack of fear) when you look down at the club. There is no such thing as “confidence”. It’s not a human emotion. You’re feeling a lack of fear of consequences.
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#243 bladehunter

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 06:31 PM

BigErn- I agree 100 %.  But I’ve yet to run across the guy who’s playing an mb and can’t hit them.  Never seen it.  But I’ve seen plenty of good , really good players who play something like a 750 Cb from Taylormade or a titleist 710-718 series cb who will literally state “ how do you play those. I can’t hit that “.  I just think.  Wow. It’s the same thing.  No measurable help coming from those irons.  I’m sorry. It’s all in the mind.  

Gi. Sure. I get that.  Height at least. But not these tiny CB irons.

Edited by bladehunter, 09 February 2019 - 06:32 PM.

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#244 bladehunter

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 06:51 PM

Pine street -

Eh.  As usual we are mostly saying the same thing.


But on the lack of fear ?  I don’t know if I buy that.  And if I do I think it’s a semantics thing.  Does it matter if it’s called confidence or lack of fear ?  Same same as I see it.     Either way it’s easily overcome for the strong of mind.  .  It’s just a golf  club.  Doesn’t bite.  

Same as a car.  It’s doesn't have the ability to do anything you don’t tell it to do.    Drivers today are soo bad I just shake my head.  I’d vote in a second for a Manual trans / manual steering test to be passed before anyone got license. And I’d add in backing a trailer and parallel parking without a backup camera too.  Would cut all this fear out as. Weed out the bad drivers that shouldn’t have licenses.  Anyone who’s afraid while driving a car at a legal speed in a normal situation doesn’t need a license.  They are a danger far greater than drunks and speeders.  There’s a reason there are minimum speed limits posted on interstates.  Drivers like that .  



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#245 agolf1

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 07:00 PM

View Postputtingmatt, on 09 February 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 08 February 2019 - 10:13 PM, said:

View Postputtingmatt, on 08 February 2019 - 10:01 PM, said:

I believe equipment plays such a small part in the actual score of any golfer.
If you truly want game improvement,
Then practice is the best and surest
way to lower score. The game is more than irons alone.
Of course practicing is what will make you improve from where you are now.  No one disputes that.

However, in the short run our skills are relatively fixed.  The question is how to get the most out of whatever you have now, and does equipment that better matches your ability make any changes to this starting point.

10 shots?  Probably not.  Same as spending $5k won't lower your scores that much either.

Your putting to much stock in the { I can buy a game with clubs belief }. Well , good luck with that nonsense.
Building a long term skill set , is your only way out, especially on the amount of dollars that one will waste.
Clubs are only tools, they all work, they all will do the tasks, the only variable, is the golfer. and more times
Than not, first sign of trouble, most golfers will blame the club, and not their own lack of skills.
Where did I say all it takes to have a good game is just go buy clubs?  Nowhere.

Look at what I play.  I 'm clearly not obsessed with the latest and greatest.  I never really blame my clubs on the course or on this forum saying "I just need XYZ, etc, etc , etc."

Skill is clearly the most important factor in scores.  However, if you don't think set makeup makes any difference at all, well that's just a stupid opinion (the golfer is not the "only" variable as you write.  It is the most important but not the only.  You've already changed your story from equipment plays a "small part" to "no part."  Good job coming up with a reply that isn't even consistent with what you thought earlier.).  Look at the difference in pros bags.  Do you see Webb Simpson or Zach Johnson carrying the same type of clubs as Rory?

If I try to go play with a 13* 3 wood off the fairway and MB 1-3 irons instead of the clubs I have, my scores will be worse today because I can't hit those clubs today.

I am not saying new matters.  I am saying having something that matches your ability matters.

Edited by agolf1, 09 February 2019 - 07:17 PM.

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#246 puttingmatt

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 07:50 PM

View Postagolf1, on 09 February 2019 - 07:00 PM, said:

View Postputtingmatt, on 09 February 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 08 February 2019 - 10:13 PM, said:

View Postputtingmatt, on 08 February 2019 - 10:01 PM, said:

I believe equipment plays such a small part in the actual score of any golfer.
If you truly want game improvement,
Then practice is the best and surest
way to lower score. The game is more than irons alone.
Of course practicing is what will make you improve from where you are now.  No one disputes that.

However, in the short run our skills are relatively fixed.  The question is how to get the most out of whatever you have now, and does equipment that better matches your ability make any changes to this starting point.

10 shots?  Probably not.  Same as spending $5k won't lower your scores that much either.

Your putting to much stock in the { I can buy a game with clubs belief }. Well , good luck with that nonsense.
Building a long term skill set , is your only way out, especially on the amount of dollars that one will waste.
Clubs are only tools, they all work, they all will do the tasks, the only variable, is the golfer. and more times
Than not, first sign of trouble, most golfers will blame the club, and not their own lack of skills.
Where did I say all it takes to have a good game is just go buy clubs?  Nowhere.

Look at what I play.  I 'm clearly not obsessed with the latest and greatest.  I never really blame my clubs on the course or on this forum saying "I just need XYZ, etc, etc , etc."

Skill is clearly the most important factor in scores.  However, if you don't think set makeup makes any difference at all, well that's just a stupid opinion (the golfer is not the "only" variable as you write.  It is the most important but not the only.  You've already changed your story from equipment plays a "small part" to "no part."  Good job coming up with a reply that isn't even consistent with what you thought earlier.).  Look at the difference in pros bags.  Do you see Webb Simpson or Zach Johnson carrying the same type of clubs as Rory?

If I try to go play with a 13* 3 wood off the fairway and MB 1-3 irons instead of the clubs I have, my scores will be worse today because I can't hit those clubs today.

I am not saying new matters.  I am saying having something that matches your ability matters.
I am being very consistant, I stated that I think equipment only plays a small part to a players game. Never stated no part, and I still consider them and stated them as tools. They are the means to accomplish a certain task.  The variable in this is the golfer, as to whether or not he can  be successful with whatever shot
or task is at hand, driving the ball, approach
shots, chips , etc.... also stated that many
have not been successful with certain shots  and you could say games, are quick to blame their equipment instead of their swing, or skill set. Practice is the answer, but many want a quick fix, don't have the time to or figure a new or different club is the fix.  Hence the comment
of buying a game. That's just my opinion, you and everyone else  are welcome to spend anyway you see fit, keeps the OEM'S  happy.

Edited by puttingmatt, 09 February 2019 - 07:54 PM.



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#247 agolf1

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:09 PM

View Postputtingmatt, on 09 February 2019 - 07:50 PM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 09 February 2019 - 07:00 PM, said:

View Postputtingmatt, on 09 February 2019 - 12:33 PM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 08 February 2019 - 10:13 PM, said:

View Postputtingmatt, on 08 February 2019 - 10:01 PM, said:

I believe equipment plays such a small part in the actual score of any golfer.
If you truly want game improvement,
Then practice is the best and surest
way to lower score. The game is more than irons alone.
Of course practicing is what will make you improve from where you are now.  No one disputes that.

However, in the short run our skills are relatively fixed.  The question is how to get the most out of whatever you have now, and does equipment that better matches your ability make any changes to this starting point.

10 shots?  Probably not.  Same as spending $5k won't lower your scores that much either.

Your putting to much stock in the { I can buy a game with clubs belief }. Well , good luck with that nonsense.
Building a long term skill set , is your only way out, especially on the amount of dollars that one will waste.
Clubs are only tools, they all work, they all will do the tasks, the only variable, is the golfer. and more times
Than not, first sign of trouble, most golfers will blame the club, and not their own lack of skills.
Where did I say all it takes to have a good game is just go buy clubs?  Nowhere.

Look at what I play.  I 'm clearly not obsessed with the latest and greatest.  I never really blame my clubs on the course or on this forum saying "I just need XYZ, etc, etc , etc."

Skill is clearly the most important factor in scores.  However, if you don't think set makeup makes any difference at all, well that's just a stupid opinion (the golfer is not the "only" variable as you write.  It is the most important but not the only.  You've already changed your story from equipment plays a "small part" to "no part."  Good job coming up with a reply that isn't even consistent with what you thought earlier.).  Look at the difference in pros bags.  Do you see Webb Simpson or Zach Johnson carrying the same type of clubs as Rory?

If I try to go play with a 13* 3 wood off the fairway and MB 1-3 irons instead of the clubs I have, my scores will be worse today because I can't hit those clubs today.

I am not saying new matters.  I am saying having something that matches your ability matters.
I am being very consistant, I stated that I think equipment only plays a small part to a players game. Never stated no part, and I still consider them and stated them as tools. They are the means to accomplish a certain task.  The variable in this is the golfer, as to whether or not he can  be successful with whatever shot
or task is at hand, driving the ball, approach
shots, chips , etc.... also stated that many
have not been successful with certain shots  and you could say games, are quick to blame their equipment instead of their swing, or skill set. Practice is the answer, but many want a quick fix, don't have the time to or figure a new or different club is the fix.  Hence the comment
of buying a game. That's just my opinion, you and everyone else  are welcome to spend anyway you see fit, keeps the OEM'S  happy.
If the only variable is the golfer, how can clubs have any impact (i.e. the clubs must have "no impact.").

And to repeat, I don't spend away trying to buy a game.  But for some reason you think I do.

Also interested in your thought on why different pros carry a different makeup of clubs.


Your putting to much stock in the { I can buy a game with clubs belief }. Well , good luck with that nonsense.
Building a long term skill set , is your only way out, especially on the amount of dollars that one will waste.
Clubs are only tools, they all work, they all will do the tasks, the only variable, is the golfer. and more times
Than not, first sign of trouble, most golfers will blame the club, and not their own lack of skills.

Titleist 910 D2 11.25*, Diamana Ilima R-Flex (tipped 1')
Callaway X Hot Pro 19* Fairway, Project X Velocity 6.0
TaylorMade Raylor 22*, Raylor RE*AX S-Flex
TaylorMade Rescue 25*, Aldila RE*AX S-Flex
Ping G25 6-PW (28*-44*), UW (49*), SW (54*), CFS R-Flex
Ping Zing 2 L/S (57*)
Ping Cadence TR Ketsch Putter

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#248 boggyman

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 08:14 PM

You want “game improvement”?? It’s called time, structured practice, and dedication to get game improvement. Not blades.

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#249 puttingmatt

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:21 PM

Agolf1 this is your quote on post 227

However,in the short run our skills are relatively fixed, the question is how to get the most out of whatever you have now, and does equipment that better
matches your ability make any changes to this starting point.


My response is still  ,  you  can't buy a game  and I do not think it changes any starting point, in general for any golfer who will not put in time to practice .  My response is in general, not specific to yourself. And to answer why different  pros carry different make up of clubs,
Cant answer that, as I can't answer why anyone who plays this game carries what and for what reason any club.
I would think any golfer chooses clubs that best enables them to score to the best of their ability.

Edited by puttingmatt, 09 February 2019 - 09:42 PM.



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#250 agolf1

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:31 PM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 09 February 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

View Postbuzlin, on 09 February 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 08 February 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

View Postbuzlin, on 08 February 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Throughout all of these discussions over the years, the one I absolutely don't get is when people refute those saying that MBs make them concentrate more or focus more or whatever.  Can someone who scoffs at the idea that MBs help some players focus please explain why they feel so confident about saying it's BS?  I'm asking sincerely, because I have no way of refuting anyone's mental triggers or state of mind.
I see pinestreetgolf's reply below, and hear what he is saying.  While it is hard to refute what works for any one person, I generally don't buy (or place less weight on) the argument you list above.

I asked the following question before and never got an answer (add the words "concentrating/focusing" next to improving in the first sentence).

This thread has turned surprisingly civil, so please excuse any "tone" issues in the re-pasted text below.  I'm asking as a serious question as well.

I hear the argument about using a more difficult club to hit and improving.  But why don't we see more mid-2000s 0.83 COR drivers?  They are as long as anything on centre strikes and horrible/punishing on mishits compared to any modern 460cc driver.

If the answer is irons are about control/have a shorter shaft, I am swinging 85%-90% most of the time and I flush it (or very close to that) the vast majority of the time whereas with a driver I am swinging close to 100% all the time to maximize distance potential and want to take advantage of any help available (balls still playable on mishits), then I get it.

But its not about using a more difficult to hit club to improve / don't use something that hides a swing/strike flaw.  The use of 460cc drivers suggests that if there's a club/technology that can help your game today, use it to score better today (GI/SGI may not be this for some).  You can always practice more for a better tomorrow later.

Again, this is a personal question for each person.  I don't have any explanation for the obvious inconsistency in the thinking.  But I can't entirely dismiss the authenticity or validity of anyone's mental reasons for club selection.  Cuz we're all mental.  :)

That's all I'm getting at.

You’re not swinging at 85-90%. You think you are. That’s not the same thing.  If you were swinging at 85-90 it wouldn’t go as far.

Feel isn’t real. What you think is happening in your swing is almost certainly not what’s happening. Get on video or on track man. It’s likely that swing is faster, and you don’t know (or aren’t familiar enough with) what fast feels like for your swing. Instead of playing insane mind games where you try to take 10% off somehow to go faster (what?) just get on a launch monitor and learn what your swing feels like at its fastest. You can retrain your brain to feel 100% as 100%.
PSG, I don't follow what you are saying.  Your posts and approach to the game are often more in-depth/advanced than mine though so that may be why.

Regardless, the statement in my post wasn't about me.  It was a general hypothetical justification.

However, I feel like with my irons I have a swing that would hit the ball 10 yards farther if the strike is good.  Problem is if I try to swing harder the contact is usually poor.

Same with the driver.  Except I more often try to get the extra ten yards here (with mixed success).

I don't think "slowing down" somehow makes you actually faster. It may result in better/farther shots though on average due to the strike?


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#251 agolf1

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 09:43 PM

View Postputtingmatt, on 09 February 2019 - 09:21 PM, said:

Agolf1 this is your quote on post 227

However,in the short run our skills are relatively fixed, the question is how to get the most out of whatever you have now, and does equipment that better
matches your ability make any changes to this starting point.
My response is still  ,  you  can't buy a game  and I do not think it changes any starting point, in general for any golfer who will not put in time to practice .  My response is in general, not specific to yourself. And to answer why different  pros carry different make up of clubs,
Cant answer that, as I can't answer why anyone who plays this game carries what and for what reason any club.
I would think any golfer chooses clubs that best enables them to score to the best of their ability.
OK.  To me, your last sentence seems to match with my statement above, and that it does matter to some degree.

I would say that loft and swingspeed are the biggest mismatches (lack of both is the biggest problem).  I believe clubhead design also matters, although a little practice will dwarf this.

Regardless, let's move on.
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#252 dpark

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 10:09 PM

Golf equipment has gotten more forgiving across the board, for the scratch golf and for the bogey golfer.

I play persimmon and modern clubs and have bought what works the best for me in both sets.

If we are just talking about the irons, Hogan Apex PCs with Apex 4 shafts in my "classic" irons and Titleist 716MBs with Steelfiber i95 shafts in my "modern" set. Both were/are considered "players" clubs from their respective generations, but I can tell you I hit way better, more consistent shots with the 716s than the PCs. Don't even get me started with persimmon woods vs my Cobra LZ and Adams fwys and hybrids.

So am I using effectively what would be "game improvement" irons relative to my Apex PCs? IMO, yes I am. They are flat out easier to hit well. The Apexes are VERY unforgiving relative to the 716s. Sharp leading edge, minimal bounce, CoG close to the heel. All of which make them more difficult to hit well.

So by your definition I should go back to my PCs full time and learn to deal with my inconsistencies? But I am already using a "blade" just one that is easier to hit than one from 30 years ago. but it also happens to be much harder to hit well compared to a modern GI iron too.

So again, what is your point? Do you think the way for golfers to really improve is to go back to 1960s era technology? If your comment is to be disparaging to GI clubs, because they don't improve your game, then you are on a slippery slope back to persimmon or even hickory clubs if you really want clubs that don't compensate for your bad swings.
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#253 Nard_S

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:49 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

BigErn- I agree 100 %.  But I've yet to run across the guy who's playing an mb and can't hit them.  Never seen it.  But I've seen plenty of good , really good players who play something like a 750 Cb from Taylormade or a titleist 710-718 series cb who will literally state " how do you play those. I can't hit that ".  I just think.  Wow. It's the same thing.  No measurable help coming from those irons.  I'm sorry. It's all in the mind.  

Gi. Sure. I get that.  Height at least. But not these tiny CB irons.

On Youtube, Nick Faldo reviews 2018 lineup. They compare MP18, and JPX line and throw in MS-11 from his heyday. Using LM and his wry commentary, one gets a better sense of the true differences across these designs and lays bare what the math is on all of it. Real good explanation for anyone interested.

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#254 bladehunter

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 09:22 AM

View PostNard_S, on 10 February 2019 - 08:49 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

BigErn- I agree 100 %.  But I've yet to run across the guy who's playing an mb and can't hit them.  Never seen it.  But I've seen plenty of good , really good players who play something like a 750 Cb from Taylormade or a titleist 710-718 series cb who will literally state " how do you play those. I can't hit that ".  I just think.  Wow. It's the same thing.  No measurable help coming from those irons.  I'm sorry. It's all in the mind.  

Gi. Sure. I get that.  Height at least. But not these tiny CB irons.

On Youtube, Nick Faldo reviews 2018 lineup. They compare MP18, and JPX line and throw in MS-11 from his heyday. Using LM and his wry commentary, one gets a better sense of the true differences across these designs and lays bare what the math is on all of it. Real good explanation for anyone interested.

Yep.  I’ve watched that one.  Loft for loft there isn’t much difference.
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#255 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 09:29 AM

View Postagolf1, on 09 February 2019 - 09:31 PM, said:

PSG, I don't follow what you are saying.  Your posts and approach to the game are often more in-depth/advanced than mine though so that may be why.

Regardless, the statement in my post wasn't about me.  It was a general hypothetical justification.

However, I feel like with my irons I have a swing that would hit the ball 10 yards farther if the strike is good.  Problem is if I try to swing harder the contact is usually poor.

Same with the driver.  Except I more often try to get the extra ten yards here (with mixed success).

I don't think "slowing down" somehow makes you actually faster. It may result in better/farther shots though on average due to the strike?

My point is that you don't have to hypothesize.  You can spend 5 minutes on a rented trackman and know for sure.  You have a hypothesis that if you slow your swing down a bit you hit better, more consistent shots.  You are assuming a causal relationship that isn't actually helpful to you because you don't know what you're doing to cause it.  You know feeling X in your swing produces Y better result but you don't know what feeling X is actually doing to your swing and therefore it is significantly harder to replicate.  Any of the theories that you've thrown out (slowing down actually speeds you up, better contact at a slower speed is still better overall, etc...) and they are all contradictory.  Its hard for your subconscious mind to trust you when you tell it to slow down because you don't actually know why it works (just that it does, sometimes).

Your Brain: OK, subconscious golf-swinging part of my brain, nice and smooth
Your Subconscious: Why
Your Brain: Because it goes better then, thats why
Your Subconscious: Yeah, but why does it go better?
You Brain: JUST DO WHAT I F*****CKING SAY
Your Subconscious: *confused*

versus

Your Brain: Swing this feel.  Its 4 mph faster and we hit the middle way more often.
*Repeat 1000 times on the range over two months
Your Brain: Swing this feel  Its 4 mph faster and we hit the middle way more often.
Your Subconscious: Duh, genius, obviously.

Similar to picking a smaller and smaller target aims your subconcious better and better, the better reasoning and specifics you feed it before you swing make the swing that much better.  "Swing smoother it'll go farther" confuses the part of the brain you hit the golf ball with.  Much more detail will make it much more repeatable.  Its how the vast majority (not all) learn.  Like learning the piano by telling you what notes the keys play and then in what order the song should be played versus you just trying to play it be ear completely blind.  Some can do it, but almost everyone else can't - their subconscious doesn't have the information and doesn't trust it

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 10 February 2019 - 09:29 AM.

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#256 agolf1

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:02 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 10 February 2019 - 09:29 AM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 09 February 2019 - 09:31 PM, said:

PSG, I don't follow what you are saying.  Your posts and approach to the game are often more in-depth/advanced than mine though so that may be why.

Regardless, the statement in my post wasn't about me.  It was a general hypothetical justification.

However, I feel like with my irons I have a swing that would hit the ball 10 yards farther if the strike is good.  Problem is if I try to swing harder the contact is usually poor.

Same with the driver.  Except I more often try to get the extra ten yards here (with mixed success).

I don't think "slowing down" somehow makes you actually faster. It may result in better/farther shots though on average due to the strike?

My point is that you don't have to hypothesize.  You can spend 5 minutes on a rented trackman and know for sure.  You have a hypothesis that if you slow your swing down a bit you hit better, more consistent shots.  You are assuming a causal relationship that isn't actually helpful to you because you don't know what you're doing to cause it.  You know feeling X in your swing produces Y better result but you don't know what feeling X is actually doing to your swing and therefore it is significantly harder to replicate.  Any of the theories that you've thrown out (slowing down actually speeds you up, better contact at a slower speed is still better overall, etc...) and they are all contradictory.  Its hard for your subconscious mind to trust you when you tell it to slow down because you don't actually know why it works (just that it does, sometimes).

Your Brain: OK, subconscious golf-swinging part of my brain, nice and smooth
Your Subconscious: Why
Your Brain: Because it goes better then, thats why
Your Subconscious: Yeah, but why does it go better?
You Brain: JUST DO WHAT I F*****CKING SAY
Your Subconscious: *confused*

versus

Your Brain: Swing this feel.  Its 4 mph faster and we hit the middle way more often.
*Repeat 1000 times on the range over two months
Your Brain: Swing this feel  Its 4 mph faster and we hit the middle way more often.
Your Subconscious: Duh, genius, obviously.

Similar to picking a smaller and smaller target aims your subconcious better and better, the better reasoning and specifics you feed it before you swing make the swing that much better.  "Swing smoother it'll go farther" confuses the part of the brain you hit the golf ball with.  Much more detail will make it much more repeatable.  Its how the vast majority (not all) learn.  Like learning the piano by telling you what notes the keys play and then in what order the song should be played versus you just trying to play it be ear completely blind.  Some can do it, but almost everyone else can't - their subconscious doesn't have the information and doesn't trust it
PSG, you need to re-read my first post about 85%-90% (or whatever % it was).  It wasn't about me (I was asking why people don't use smaller/harder to hit drivers if blades make them concentrate).  I never said slowing down speeds you up.  You said that.

I'm simply saying this; I know what swing will make my 8 iron go X yards.  I know if I try to swing harder, I can hit my 8 iron X yards + 10 yards if I catch it right.  But I don't catch it right as often, so I go with the first swing most of the time.

You know quite a bit about the game/strategy/equipment, and seem like a good player (much better than me).

But to tell me I don't know what a normal swing is and what a faster swing is for me, seems a bit odd.  And yes, I have had my swing measured with a driver under the same two scenarios and know the results are worse when I swing harder.
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#257 agolf1

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:07 AM

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 10 February 2019 - 09:29 AM, said:

My point is that you don't have to hypothesize.  You can spend 5 minutes on a rented trackman and know for sure.  You have a hypothesis that if you slow your swing down a bit you hit better, more consistent shots.  You are assuming a causal relationship that isn't actually helpful to you because you don't know what you're doing to cause it.  You know feeling X in your swing produces Y better result but you don't know what feeling X is actually doing to your swing and therefore it is significantly harder to replicate.  Any of the theories that you've thrown out (slowing down actually speeds you up, better contact at a slower speed is still better overall, etc...) and they are all contradictory.  Its hard for your subconscious mind to trust you when you tell it to slow down because you don't actually know why it works (just that it does, sometimes).

Your Brain: OK, subconscious golf-swinging part of my brain, nice and smooth
Your Subconscious: Why
Your Brain: Because it goes better then, thats why
Your Subconscious: Yeah, but why does it go better?
You Brain: JUST DO WHAT I F*****CKING SAY
Your Subconscious: *confused*

versus

Your Brain: Swing this feel.  Its 4 mph faster and we hit the middle way more often.
*Repeat 1000 times on the range over two months
Your Brain: Swing this feel  Its 4 mph faster and we hit the middle way more often.
Your Subconscious: Duh, genius, obviously.

Similar to picking a smaller and smaller target aims your subconcious better and better, the better reasoning and specifics you feed it before you swing make the swing that much better.  "Swing smoother it'll go farther" confuses the part of the brain you hit the golf ball with.  Much more detail will make it much more repeatable.  Its how the vast majority (not all) learn.  Like learning the piano by telling you what notes the keys play and then in what order the song should be played versus you just trying to play it be ear completely blind.  Some can do it, but almost everyone else can't - their subconscious doesn't have the information and doesn't trust it
This is where I ask about the older drivers.
I hear the argument about using a more difficult club to hit and improving.  But why don't we see more mid-2000s 0.83 COR drivers?  They are as long as anything on centre strikes and horrible/punishing on mishits compared to any modern 460cc driver.

This is where I state a hypothetical answer someone may give to me about why thy don't use the older driver.  It has nothing to do with my swing, my results, or anything of the like.  It is simply saying some people may not swing as hard with their irons as they do with they driver (as a % of their full or hardest swing).  It does not say if you swing slower you will actually swing faster.
If the answer is irons are about control/have a shorter shaft, I am swinging 85%-90% most of the time and I flush it (or very close to that) the vast majority of the time whereas with a driver I am swinging close to 100% all the time to maximize distance potential and want to take advantage of any help available (balls still playable on mishits), then I get it.

Edited by agolf1, 10 February 2019 - 10:17 AM.

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#258 pinestreetgolf

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 10:24 PM

View Postagolf1, on 09 February 2019 - 09:31 PM, said:

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 09 February 2019 - 03:14 PM, said:

View Postbuzlin, on 09 February 2019 - 02:25 PM, said:

View Postagolf1, on 08 February 2019 - 07:12 PM, said:

View Postbuzlin, on 08 February 2019 - 03:42 PM, said:

Throughout all of these discussions over the years, the one I absolutely don't get is when people refute those saying that MBs make them concentrate more or focus more or whatever.  Can someone who scoffs at the idea that MBs help some players focus please explain why they feel so confident about saying it's BS?  I'm asking sincerely, because I have no way of refuting anyone's mental triggers or state of mind.
I see pinestreetgolf's reply below, and hear what he is saying.  While it is hard to refute what works for any one person, I generally don't buy (or place less weight on) the argument you list above.

I asked the following question before and never got an answer (add the words "concentrating/focusing" next to improving in the first sentence).

This thread has turned surprisingly civil, so please excuse any "tone" issues in the re-pasted text below.  I'm asking as a serious question as well.

I hear the argument about using a more difficult club to hit and improving.  But why don't we see more mid-2000s 0.83 COR drivers?  They are as long as anything on centre strikes and horrible/punishing on mishits compared to any modern 460cc driver.

If the answer is irons are about control/have a shorter shaft, I am swinging 85%-90% most of the time and I flush it (or very close to that) the vast majority of the time whereas with a driver I am swinging close to 100% all the time to maximize distance potential and want to take advantage of any help available (balls still playable on mishits), then I get it.

But its not about using a more difficult to hit club to improve / don't use something that hides a swing/strike flaw.  The use of 460cc drivers suggests that if there's a club/technology that can help your game today, use it to score better today (GI/SGI may not be this for some).  You can always practice more for a better tomorrow later.

Again, this is a personal question for each person.  I don't have any explanation for the obvious inconsistency in the thinking.  But I can't entirely dismiss the authenticity or validity of anyone's mental reasons for club selection.  Cuz we're all mental.  :)

That's all I'm getting at.

You’re not swinging at 85-90%. You think you are. That’s not the same thing.  If you were swinging at 85-90 it wouldn’t go as far.

Feel isn’t real. What you think is happening in your swing is almost certainly not what’s happening. Get on video or on track man. It’s likely that swing is faster, and you don’t know (or aren’t familiar enough with) what fast feels like for your swing. Instead of playing insane mind games where you try to take 10% off somehow to go faster (what?) just get on a launch monitor and learn what your swing feels like at its fastest. You can retrain your brain to feel 100% as 100%.
PSG, I don't follow what you are saying.  Your posts and approach to the game are often more in-depth/advanced than mine though so that may be why.

Regardless, the statement in my post wasn't about me.  It was a general hypothetical justification.

However, I feel like with my irons I have a swing that would hit the ball 10 yards farther if the strike is good.  Problem is if I try to swing harder the contact is usually poor.

Same with the driver.  Except I more often try to get the extra ten yards here (with mixed success).

I don't think "slowing down" somehow makes you actually faster. It may result in better/farther shots though on average due to the strike?

For most golfers, slowing down actually does make them faster.  In order to create lag, two things have to be moving in two different directions.

Think about slamming a screen door.   Which slams it harder - pushing toward the door frame as hard as you can, or ripping it shut the way you would normally slam a door, just at half-speed?

Ripping it shut.  No matter how hard you push a door closed, its slower than slamming it.  Why?

Because the door and you are traveling in opposite directions.  In golf we swing in three dimensions.  The club is traveling down and right, and to maximize speed the golfer travels first left and then up (why pros finish with their belt buckle at the sky).  You will swing the clubhead WAY faster if you lag - that is, if you pull away with your left side slower instead of pushing with your right side faster.

A lot of people feel "correct sequence" i.e. body left + up then arms as "slower" because their arms move slower at the start.  But their feel isn't real.  They are simply letting their body go left and up and therefore they end up lagging the clubhead.

A much more effective way to do that is to put a speed meter on the ground and feel what fast feels like, then swing fast, instead of tricking yourself into "swinging slower" (which moves the clubhead faster due to the correct sequence).

Virtually every golfer above a 12 or so equates "speed" with "my body speed" or "my hand speed" and not "the speed the clubhead is traveling at impact".  So "swing slower" is a concept where the body does go slower (it just lags correctly) but the clubhead goes faster.  To me, its silly.  Just figure out how to make your clubhead go the fastest possible and then let the ball get in the way.  A good example of this is Matsuyama.  Everyone says he "pauses" at the top, but he doesn't.  If you watch him close, his left side is going while he's "Still".  He's lagging - the club is still hinging up (slightly) and the body is starting down.  So, of course, everyone tries to emulate him and can't hit the broadside of a barn.

There is no such thing as a transition that is "too quick".  There are such things as players who don't know what an optimum transition feels like and don't know how else to describe it.  A correct transition that is "too quick" just hits the ball harder.  These are golf cliches.  "Pause at the top" "too quick" "slow it down" = "how I felt once when i hit it good, i think".

Finally, to the guy arguing with you that its all skill and no clubs, I'll make him a bet.  Grab a set of LH or RH clubs (whatever your not) and play me over 9 holes.  Then we'll see how little the clubs matter.  Of course the clubs matter a ton.  What a ridiculous thing to say.  Where do you draw the line?  How about we give you some -3" irons?  Gonna shoot par?

Skill and equipment are not mutually exclusive.  Skill is more important.  That doesn't mean equipment isn't important.  If you had to play wrong-handed with DeChambeau grips I can pretty much bet you'd be bitching about the clubs immediately.

Edited by pinestreetgolf, 10 February 2019 - 10:42 PM.

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18

#259 MelloYello

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:42 AM

View PostBiggErn, on 09 February 2019 - 05:06 PM, said:

It’s more contact related. If solid contact isn’t almost automatic then you’re playing something just to be playing it. Looks, cool factor, whatever but it’s not performance.

I wouldn't advocate anyone play an MB who isn't capable of good contact. In fact, you won't hear me advocating for anyone using them. I think the people who play them find them and try them on their own.

I would agree with bladehunter that in my experience it's been rare to find someone in the real world who's playing a set of clubs they can't manage--particularly with blades. It's far more likely to hear someone with a small, forged CB worry about club-head size, too. I've gotten that comment a lot. Some guy with Titleist CBs will look at my MBs and comment about how he couldn't hit them.

In my 10+ years of playing, the guys who I've run into that had blades usually had some old set and they were acclimated to them. As players they were well-adjusted to the demands of the clubs they played, those players were usually perfectly adequate ball-strikers. Maybe there was a correlation there--and maybe it's just a small sample?

I would certainly agree that it's possible without any hope of forgiveness, those players just learned to stick with what worked in practice and to eliminate the bad stuff as quickly as possible. It's also possible the type of person who is likely to trying a blade and stick with it year after year is the type who's willing to spend a little extra time on the range to accommodate that choice of club.

Now, B, if your personal suspicions lead you to imagine that everyone on a site like this who plays with blades goes out there and attempts to manage gory misses, well, I think that'd be a bad theory. I take the opposite view--if so many on a site like this play them, they must not be as unfriendly as they're portrayed and they must not be that damaging to the scorecard. My experience backs up that sort of "optimism."


Also keep in mind that a lot of people on here are either really good or they simply practice a lot. I swing my clubs everyday at home when I'm bored. I chip and putt a little bit everyday, too.  I visit the practice range multiple times per week, often for extended periods as I have a membership that affords me unlimited practice balls. I usually play at least once per week if the weather cooperates. This weekend I walked 9 Friday evening after hitting a couple bags of balls. Then I walked 18 Saturday afternoon with friends. That included a bag of balls before and after the round. I even returned on Sunday to walk 18 again by myself because my schedule was wide open. Technically, I even got in an extra 3 holes on Saturday. Thinking back, I played a total of 48 holes and hit 5 large bags on the range this weekend.

But before you say, 'well, you are an extreme example,' I'd caution you that you're on a site full of people that have a lust for golf. Folks on GolfWRX are often the type to play and practice as much as they possibly can given their schedule. And with that amount of time invested, a player can get acclimated to virtually any 7-iron he chooses from a Titleist MB to a Ping G-series.

Admittedly, that's more than my normal amount of actual play. If I get in 18 holes, I'm usually satisfied. But I do tend to hit a lot on the range which means that flush contact with my irons is usually not the concern. Making sure they go where I intend--that's the challenge for me. So I think my misses are not so much about having sufficient hand-eye coordination but more with getting my mechanics right. At present I'm struggling with a bit of a pull-hook which is causing me to miss greens with shots that are high and soild but left.

Chaning my club type because of my handicap isn't an easy fix for that type of miss IMHO.

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 09 February 2019 - 05:13 PM, said:

If a player looks at a blade and is afraid of its consequence on his or her game they won’t get better practicing on them. Everyone is different.  Some people are like you, but a lot of people don’t want the gear built for the best people on earth at task X. They’re scared of it. And that’s fine, but we can’t pretend it’s as simple as “good player blade, bad player CB” or “get better by smashing blade”.  It’s *all* about the comfort level (read: lack of fear) when you look down at the club. There is no such thing as “confidence”. It’s not a human emotion. You’re feeling a lack of fear of consequences.

To hammer home this point with the skeptics, I'll again say, I do not line up to to any iron shot thinking I'm going to miss it. On the contrary, I expect flush contact and I look forward to the feeling of an MB. There's no doubt about that. I am not in the least bit "scared." That doesn't mean I hit my irons perfectly--no one does--but the notion that a person can be "scared" of an iron is foreign to me. Maybe that doesn't apply to everyone but hey, that's my experience.

I get the point though. My weakest area in recent years has been my driving. There have been plenty of times I've stood over a tee shot hoping instead of expecting. Thankfully, I've never felt that way over my irons--at least not when I'm in practice.

I guess it's possible that's not just random coincidence. If experience says you're more likely to flush your 7i and you play a blade that feels great, maybe you just naturally develop a more positive mental image of that club? Confidence + Enjoyment = Enthusiasm. I know that when my driver swing is working I start to "like" hitting the driver more.

So maybe it's the other way around. Maybe the guys who obsess about bigger irons really just need to practice their irons more so that they start hitting them better and thereby enjoy the experience?

That sounds arrogant but maybe it's true?
Driver: TaylorMade M3 460
Fairway: TaylorMade M3 HL Fwy
Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli Hi (2)

Irons: Titleist 716 T-MB (4, 5), 716 MB (6-P)
Wedges: Vokey SM6  52.12 (F)  /  56.14 (F)  /  60.10 (S)
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19

#260 andrieddle

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:33 AM

Does iBlade count as MB?

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#261 NRJyzr

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:37 AM

View Postandrieddle, on 11 February 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Does iBlade count as MB?


No, not really.  The cavity is still there, it's just not visible.
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#262 MelloYello

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:07 AM

View Postandrieddle, on 11 February 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Does iBlade count as MB?

I don't have first hand experience with the Ping iBlade, but to me any iron is merely the sum of a list of features that include:

(1) Sole geometry
(2) Blade length
(3) Face size
(4) Top-line / Toe Shape
(5) Material / Construction
(6) Offset
(7) Weight placement (perimeter weighting)
(8) Loft
(9) Appearance

So rather than say a particular club is explicitly this or that, it's probably better to look at each dimension separately and just see where a particular design is a little towards the "control" end of the spectrum and where it's not. It's common to run across a player's iron that isn't as "forgiving" as it looks. Ping can be considered unique in that they often provide relatively large soles and a fairly generous amount of offset relative to the class of iron they're marketing.
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#263 nsxguy

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:05 AM

Blade is a single hunk of metal with NO perimeter weighting of any kind. ;)
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#264 SwooshLT

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:05 AM

View PostMelloYello, on 11 February 2019 - 10:07 AM, said:

View Postandrieddle, on 11 February 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Does iBlade count as MB?

I don't have first hand experience with the Ping iBlade, but to me any iron is merely the sum of a list of features that include:

(1) Sole geometry
(2) Blade length
(3) Face size
(4) Top-line / Toe Shape
(5) Material / Construction
(6) Offset
(7) Weight placement (perimeter weighting)
(8) Loft
(9) Appearance

So rather than say a particular club is explicitly this or that, it's probably better to look at each dimension separately and just see where a particular design is a little towards the "control" end of the spectrum and where it's not. It's common to run across a player's iron that isn't as "forgiving" as it looks. Ping can be considered unique in that they often provide relatively large soles and a fairly generous amount of offset relative to the class of iron they're marketing.

The beauty of iblades(which I now play) is they give you most of the benefits of a traditional blade in the thin sole/thin topline aspect but with a modicum of forgiveness with the cavity filled slot....I've hit them next to i210 and forgiveness seems fairly equal but sole width playability factors have the iblade ahead.....I'm not a high speed guy yet I'm playing 3-pw in them as the control of the 3i off particular tees is beneficial.....I also don't play outside my scope of tees knowing my lost speed/distance dictates the move "up" a tee box or two.....still enjoy the game, enjoy the look of non-shovels (as PSG said)

There are other irons in this category but I can tell you this, finding the right shaft to match your personal swing dynamics MIGHT be more important to overall consistency....weight has been a key issue....awt 2.0 is just a hair too light and dynalite gold xp or kbs tour regular at 110-ish fits my swing/tempo much better....strikes are more consistent.

24

#265 GolfChannel

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:07 PM

View PostSwooshLT, on 11 February 2019 - 11:05 AM, said:

View PostMelloYello, on 11 February 2019 - 10:07 AM, said:

View Postandrieddle, on 11 February 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Does iBlade count as MB?

I don't have first hand experience with the Ping iBlade, but to me any iron is merely the sum of a list of features that include:

(1) Sole geometry
(2) Blade length
(3) Face size
(4) Top-line / Toe Shape
(5) Material / Construction
(6) Offset
(7) Weight placement (perimeter weighting)
(8) Loft
(9) Appearance

So rather than say a particular club is explicitly this or that, it's probably better to look at each dimension separately and just see where a particular design is a little towards the "control" end of the spectrum and where it's not. It's common to run across a player's iron that isn't as "forgiving" as it looks. Ping can be considered unique in that they often provide relatively large soles and a fairly generous amount of offset relative to the class of iron they're marketing.

The beauty of iblades(which I now play) is they give you most of the benefits of a traditional blade in the thin sole/thin topline aspect but with a modicum of forgiveness with the cavity filled slot....I've hit them next to i210 and forgiveness seems fairly equal but sole width playability factors have the iblade ahead.....I'm not a high speed guy yet I'm playing 3-pw in them as the control of the 3i off particular tees is beneficial.....I also don't play outside my scope of tees knowing my lost speed/distance dictates the move "up" a tee box or two.....still enjoy the game, enjoy the look of non-shovels (as PSG said)

There are other irons in this category but I can tell you this, finding the right shaft to match your personal swing dynamics MIGHT be more important to overall consistency....weight has been a key issue....awt 2.0 is just a hair too light and dynalite gold xp or kbs tour regular at 110-ish fits my swing/tempo much better....strikes are more consistent.

For me, the iBlade was so easy to hit for a "blade". I have been a huge fan of the Modus 120S, but I just didn't get on with them in the iBlade. I actually got on quite well with the Stock AWT 2.0 offering in stiff (not surprisingly they are quality given Nippon makes them as well). I was contemplating combo sets the i200 & i210, but they were less forgiving for my swing personally and the general loss of feeling that came with them wasn't worth it. I have a 4-P, but I play 5-P. I knew it was going to take a special club to get the Apex CF16's out of my bag and these are truly special.

Driver: Who needs that kind of negativity in their life...
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25

#266 SwooshLT

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 12:48 PM

View PostGolfChannel, on 11 February 2019 - 12:07 PM, said:

View PostSwooshLT, on 11 February 2019 - 11:05 AM, said:

View PostMelloYello, on 11 February 2019 - 10:07 AM, said:

View Postandrieddle, on 11 February 2019 - 09:33 AM, said:

Does iBlade count as MB?

I don't have first hand experience with the Ping iBlade, but to me any iron is merely the sum of a list of features that include:

(1) Sole geometry
(2) Blade length
(3) Face size
(4) Top-line / Toe Shape
(5) Material / Construction
(6) Offset
(7) Weight placement (perimeter weighting)
(8) Loft
(9) Appearance

So rather than say a particular club is explicitly this or that, it's probably better to look at each dimension separately and just see where a particular design is a little towards the "control" end of the spectrum and where it's not. It's common to run across a player's iron that isn't as "forgiving" as it looks. Ping can be considered unique in that they often provide relatively large soles and a fairly generous amount of offset relative to the class of iron they're marketing.

The beauty of iblades(which I now play) is they give you most of the benefits of a traditional blade in the thin sole/thin topline aspect but with a modicum of forgiveness with the cavity filled slot....I've hit them next to i210 and forgiveness seems fairly equal but sole width playability factors have the iblade ahead.....I'm not a high speed guy yet I'm playing 3-pw in them as the control of the 3i off particular tees is beneficial.....I also don't play outside my scope of tees knowing my lost speed/distance dictates the move "up" a tee box or two.....still enjoy the game, enjoy the look of non-shovels (as PSG said)

There are other irons in this category but I can tell you this, finding the right shaft to match your personal swing dynamics MIGHT be more important to overall consistency....weight has been a key issue....awt 2.0 is just a hair too light and dynalite gold xp or kbs tour regular at 110-ish fits my swing/tempo much better....strikes are more consistent.

For me, the iBlade was so easy to hit for a "blade". I have been a huge fan of the Modus 120S, but I just didn't get on with them in the iBlade. I actually got on quite well with the Stock AWT 2.0 offering in stiff (not surprisingly they are quality given Nippon makes them as well). I was contemplating combo sets the i200 & i210, but they were less forgiving for my swing personally and the general loss of feeling that came with them wasn't worth it. I have a 4-P, but I play 5-P. I knew it was going to take a special club to get the Apex CF16's out of my bag and these are truly special.

AMEN!

26

#267 chisag

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 05:20 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

BigErn- I agree 100 %. But I've yet to run across the guy who's playing an mb and can't hit them.  Never seen it. But I've seen plenty of good , really good players who play something like a 750 Cb from Taylormade or a titleist 710-718 series cb who will literally state " how do you play those. I can't hit that ". I just think.  Wow. It's the same thing.  No measurable help coming from those irons.  I'm sorry. It's all in the mind.  

... We obviously associate with a different class of golfers. You must play with friends and in tournaments. While I won't say it has been many times, I have certainly seen players using vanity MB's, that have no business hitting them from a performance perspective. I am in Phoenix for the winter and play almost everyday as a single. Played with a guy two weeks ago using MB's that shot near 100 as best I could tell and maybe hit 5 solid shots all day. Might have hit 3 iron off the tee 4 times and none of them found the fairway. I have also seen newish used MB's in the PGA SS with ball wear almost completely off the grooves and a pristine center. And when I taught full time I had probably around 10 students in 5 years playing MB's that could not hit them well enough to play them. Sure, I had some using them well and 1 student in particular that hit them poorly but hit GI's even worse so we kept him in them. Lots of different players out there.

... I had 205 to a front pin on 18 yesterday with water left of the green, fairway sloping into it. There are mounds down the right side so the play was land about 5-10 yds short of the green and let the mounds hopefully take the ball on the green. My 4 iron left me a 10 footer and I would have hit that same shot with the smallest MB. But earlier in the round I had 185 with water right and came out of a 5 iron, hitting it low and toey. A MB would have found the water as the face would have definitely turned with that kind of toe hit, but my 790 5 iron lost a little trajectory and distance while pretty much keeping it's line and finding the bunker instead of the water. Out of the bunker I could stop it near the hole and saved par. Dropping where I would have entered the water meant I would have a 20yd shot over a bunker to a very firm desert green and would have been looking at a 5 or 6. I usually have a few of those type shots a round and that's why I play cb's.
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4-pw TaylorMade P790 ... Recoil Prototype 95's
SM6 52* F Grind /SM7 D Grind 58* ... Recoil 110s
Bobby Grace 6330 ...  33.5"

27

#268 BiggErn

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 12:49 PM

View Postchisag, on 11 February 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 February 2019 - 06:31 PM, said:

BigErn- I agree 100 %. But I've yet to run across the guy who's playing an mb and can't hit them.  Never seen it. But I've seen plenty of good , really good players who play something like a 750 Cb from Taylormade or a titleist 710-718 series cb who will literally state " how do you play those. I can't hit that ". I just think.  Wow. It's the same thing.  No measurable help coming from those irons.  I'm sorry. It's all in the mind.  

... We obviously associate with a different class of golfers. You must play with friends and in tournaments. While I won't say it has been many times, I have certainly seen players using vanity MB's, that have no business hitting them from a performance perspective. I am in Phoenix for the winter and play almost everyday as a single. Played with a guy two weeks ago using MB's that shot near 100 as best I could tell and maybe hit 5 solid shots all day. Might have hit 3 iron off the tee 4 times and none of them found the fairway. I have also seen newish used MB's in the PGA SS with ball wear almost completely off the grooves and a pristine center. And when I taught full time I had probably around 10 students in 5 years playing MB's that could not hit them well enough to play them. Sure, I had some using them well and 1 student in particular that hit them poorly but hit GI's even worse so we kept him in them. Lots of different players out there.

... I had 205 to a front pin on 18 yesterday with water left of the green, fairway sloping into it. There are mounds down the right side so the play was land about 5-10 yds short of the green and let the mounds hopefully take the ball on the green. My 4 iron left me a 10 footer and I would have hit that same shot with the smallest MB. But earlier in the round I had 185 with water right and came out of a 5 iron, hitting it low and toey. A MB would have found the water as the face would have definitely turned with that kind of toe hit, but my 790 5 iron lost a little trajectory and distance while pretty much keeping it's line and finding the bunker instead of the water. Out of the bunker I could stop it near the hole and saved par. Dropping where I would have entered the water meant I would have a 20yd shot over a bunker to a very firm desert green and would have been looking at a 5 or 6. I usually have a few of those type shots a round and that's why I play cb's.

Still hitting the 790s?

28

#269 bladehunter

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 01:02 PM

View PostMelloYello, on 11 February 2019 - 08:42 AM, said:

View PostBiggErn, on 09 February 2019 - 05:06 PM, said:

It’s more contact related. If solid contact isn’t almost automatic then you’re playing something just to be playing it. Looks, cool factor, whatever but it’s not performance.

I wouldn't advocate anyone play an MB who isn't capable of good contact. In fact, you won't hear me advocating for anyone using them. I think the people who play them find them and try them on their own.

I would agree with bladehunter that in my experience it's been rare to find someone in the real world who's playing a set of clubs they can't manage--particularly with blades. It's far more likely to hear someone with a small, forged CB worry about club-head size, too. I've gotten that comment a lot. Some guy with Titleist CBs will look at my MBs and comment about how he couldn't hit them.

In my 10+ years of playing, the guys who I've run into that had blades usually had some old set and they were acclimated to them. As players they were well-adjusted to the demands of the clubs they played, those players were usually perfectly adequate ball-strikers. Maybe there was a correlation there--and maybe it's just a small sample?

I would certainly agree that it's possible without any hope of forgiveness, those players just learned to stick with what worked in practice and to eliminate the bad stuff as quickly as possible. It's also possible the type of person who is likely to trying a blade and stick with it year after year is the type who's willing to spend a little extra time on the range to accommodate that choice of club.

Now, B, if your personal suspicions lead you to imagine that everyone on a site like this who plays with blades goes out there and attempts to manage gory misses, well, I think that'd be a bad theory. I take the opposite view--if so many on a site like this play them, they must not be as unfriendly as they're portrayed and they must not be that damaging to the scorecard. My experience backs up that sort of "optimism."


Also keep in mind that a lot of people on here are either really good or they simply practice a lot. I swing my clubs everyday at home when I'm bored. I chip and putt a little bit everyday, too.  I visit the practice range multiple times per week, often for extended periods as I have a membership that affords me unlimited practice balls. I usually play at least once per week if the weather cooperates. This weekend I walked 9 Friday evening after hitting a couple bags of balls. Then I walked 18 Saturday afternoon with friends. That included a bag of balls before and after the round. I even returned on Sunday to walk 18 again by myself because my schedule was wide open. Technically, I even got in an extra 3 holes on Saturday. Thinking back, I played a total of 48 holes and hit 5 large bags on the range this weekend.

But before you say, 'well, you are an extreme example,' I'd caution you that you're on a site full of people that have a lust for golf. Folks on GolfWRX are often the type to play and practice as much as they possibly can given their schedule. And with that amount of time invested, a player can get acclimated to virtually any 7-iron he chooses from a Titleist MB to a Ping G-series.

Admittedly, that's more than my normal amount of actual play. If I get in 18 holes, I'm usually satisfied. But I do tend to hit a lot on the range which means that flush contact with my irons is usually not the concern. Making sure they go where I intend--that's the challenge for me. So I think my misses are not so much about having sufficient hand-eye coordination but more with getting my mechanics right. At present I'm struggling with a bit of a pull-hook which is causing me to miss greens with shots that are high and soild but left.

Chaning my club type because of my handicap isn't an easy fix for that type of miss IMHO.

View Postpinestreetgolf, on 09 February 2019 - 05:13 PM, said:

If a player looks at a blade and is afraid of its consequence on his or her game they won’t get better practicing on them. Everyone is different.  Some people are like you, but a lot of people don’t want the gear built for the best people on earth at task X. They’re scared of it. And that’s fine, but we can’t pretend it’s as simple as “good player blade, bad player CB” or “get better by smashing blade”.  It’s *all* about the comfort level (read: lack of fear) when you look down at the club. There is no such thing as “confidence”. It’s not a human emotion. You’re feeling a lack of fear of consequences.

To hammer home this point with the skeptics, I'll again say, I do not line up to to any iron shot thinking I'm going to miss it. On the contrary, I expect flush contact and I look forward to the feeling of an MB. There's no doubt about that. I am not in the least bit "scared." That doesn't mean I hit my irons perfectly--no one does--but the notion that a person can be "scared" of an iron is foreign to me. Maybe that doesn't apply to everyone but hey, that's my experience.

I get the point though. My weakest area in recent years has been my driving. There have been plenty of times I've stood over a tee shot hoping instead of expecting. Thankfully, I've never felt that way over my irons--at least not when I'm in practice.

I guess it's possible that's not just random coincidence. If experience says you're more likely to flush your 7i and you play a blade that feels great, maybe you just naturally develop a more positive mental image of that club? Confidence + Enjoyment = Enthusiasm. I know that when my driver swing is working I start to "like" hitting the driver more.

So maybe it's the other way around. Maybe the guys who obsess about bigger irons really just need to practice their irons more so that they start hitting them better and thereby enjoy the experience?

That sounds arrogant but maybe it's true?

Perfectly worded and very reasonable post. Agree 100 %. ^^
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29

#270 MelloYello

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 02:05 PM

View Postchisag, on 11 February 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

... We obviously associate with a different class of golfers. You must play with friends and in tournaments. While I won't say it has been many times, I have certainly seen players using vanity MB's, that have no business hitting them from a performance perspective. I am in Phoenix for the winter and play almost everyday as a single. Played with a guy two weeks ago using MB's that shot near 100 as best I could tell and maybe hit 5 solid shots all day. Might have hit 3 iron off the tee 4 times and none of them found the fairway. I have also seen newish used MB's in the PGA SS with ball wear almost completely off the grooves and a pristine center. And when I taught full time I had probably around 10 students in 5 years playing MB's that could not hit them well enough to play them. Sure, I had some using them well and 1 student in particular that hit them poorly but hit GI's even worse so we kept him in them. Lots of different players out there.

Ya know, man...to be fair...I don't think anybody, anywhere is advocating that a 30-handicap hacker use blades. What you describe is a figure that doesn't seem worth commenting on IMHO.

We shouldn't let the conversation plummet to those depths. Instead, I think we take it on good faith that we're discussing competent players who practice and who might actually benefit by some, small fraction in their scoring.

View Postchisag, on 11 February 2019 - 05:20 PM, said:

... I had 205 to a front pin on 18 yesterday with water left of the green, fairway sloping into it. There are mounds down the right side so the play was land about 5-10 yds short of the green and let the mounds hopefully take the ball on the green. My 4 iron left me a 10 footer and I would have hit that same shot with the smallest MB. But earlier in the round I had 185 with water right and came out of a 5 iron, hitting it low and toey. A MB would have found the water as the face would have definitely turned with that kind of toe hit, but my 790 5 iron lost a little trajectory and distance while pretty much keeping it's line and finding the bunker instead of the water. Out of the bunker I could stop it near the hole and saved par. Dropping where I would have entered the water meant I would have a 20yd shot over a bunker to a very firm desert green and would have been looking at a 5 or 6. I usually have a few of those type shots a round and that's why I play cb's.

I've always said that the longer your shots, the more forgiveness becomes a factor. Last year I carried MB long irons because I only ever hit them off the tee and I enjoyed having the consistency of feel and weight. I actually implemented my 3-iron really well as a kind of fairway finder on shorter holes.

At the same time, who's facing shots where they have to carry their longest irons over hazards on the regular? Maybe you are, but where I play I have a couple long Par-3s (where I get to tee it up). On one I typically use 5-iron (if the tees are way back). On the other, I am forced to use an 18-200 club of some sort as the hole is often 210-ish carry. It's a very challenging Par-3 indeed given there is a creek guarding the front and right sides of the green.  

But after that, those long irons are mostly fairway finders and lay-up clubs. All the Par-5s are long enough to demand not only a powerful drive but a fairway metal or hybrid in.

So unless we're talking about regular-length players playing Tour-style Par-4s that are 430 or more yards I don't really see how 3-iron and 4-irons are dictating score. On the contrary, players need to worry about the mid- and short-irons more than anything else (assuming they can drive it reasonably).

And again, with adequate practice, Joe Schmo can learn to hit whatever 7-iron he wants.

Driver: TaylorMade M3 460
Fairway: TaylorMade M3 HL Fwy
Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli Hi (2)

Irons: Titleist 716 T-MB (4, 5), 716 MB (6-P)
Wedges: Vokey SM6  52.12 (F)  /  56.14 (F)  /  60.10 (S)
Putter: Odyssey O-Works 2-Ball Red

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