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Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?


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#61 sui generis

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:21 PM

Explanation for Rule Change for 2019 -  Ball Played from Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole

Current Rule: Under Rule 17-3, if a player makes a stroke on the putting green and the ball then
hits the unattended flagstick that was left in the hole, the player gets the general penalty.

2019 Rule: Under Rule 13.2a(2):

 There will no longer be a penalty if a ball played from the putting green hits a flagstick
left in the hole.
 Players will not be required to putt with the flagstick in the hole; rather, they will
continue to have the choice to have it removed (which includes having someone attend
the flagstick and remove it after the ball is played).

Reasons for Change:

 Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should
generally help speed up play:

o For example, if a putt is long enough that the player cannot easily see the hole
unless the flagstick is left in, the player currently needs to wait for another person to
attend the flagstick even if it is the player’s turn to play or (in stroke play) if the
player is ready to play and it would save time to go ahead and do so.
o This change could also speed up play for short tap-ins, as the player could simply
putt the ball into the hole without first removing and then replacing the flagstick.

 When the players do not have caddies, the current Rule can result in considerable delay, such as:

o When the opponent (or the other player in stroke play) is raking a greenside bunker
and will be delayed for a minute or two before coming on to the green.
o When other players in stroke play are delayed in coming on to the green for other
reasons, such as a ball search, indecision about what club to use or shot to play, etc.
o When all players in the group have long putts and so will need to walk back and
forth to the hole to attend the flagstick for one another (which sometimes produces
uncertainty about who will or should attend for someone else).

 In match play, a player without a caddie will now be able to choose to putt with the
unattended flagstick in the hole rather than ask the opponent to attend the flagstick,
reducing the potential for dispute that can arise when the opponent attends for the
player (such as when the opponent fails to remove the flagstick and the ball hits it).

 On balance it is expected that there should be no advantage in being able to putt with
the unattended flagstick in the hole:
o In some cases, the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it
might otherwise have been holed, and
o In other cases, the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might
otherwise have missed.

http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#62 pinhigh27

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:22 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.  


Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you.  If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But thereís a chance of hitting it slightly  off center and it staying in.  

Now add a flagstick there.  It has almost zero shot at going in.  If it hits the pin its coming out.  Maybe wonít go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.  

Iím telling you that no good player whoís learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in.  Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in.  Because most arent going to do it for you.

Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple
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#63 Londoner

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:41 PM

View Postsui generis, on 03 September 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

Explanation for Rule Change for 2019 - Ball Played from Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole Current Rule: Under Rule 17-3, if a player makes a stroke on the putting green and the ball then hits the unattended flagstick that was left in the hole, the player gets the general penalty. 2019 Rule: Under Rule 13.2a(2):  There will no longer be a penalty if a ball played from the putting green hits a flagstick left in the hole.  Players will not be required to putt with the flagstick in the hole; rather, they will continue to have the choice to have it removed (which includes having someone attend the flagstick and remove it after the ball is played). Reasons for Change:  Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should generally help speed up play: o For example, if a putt is long enough that the player cannot easily see the hole unless the flagstick is left in, the player currently needs to wait for another person to attend the flagstick even if it is the player’s turn to play or (in stroke play) if the player is ready to play and it would save time to go ahead and do so. o This change could also speed up play for short tap-ins, as the player could simply putt the ball into the hole without first removing and then replacing the flagstick.  When the players do not have caddies, the current Rule can result in considerable delay, such as: o When the opponent (or the other player in stroke play) is raking a greenside bunker and will be delayed for a minute or two before coming on to the green. o When other players in stroke play are delayed in coming on to the green for other reasons, such as a ball search, indecision about what club to use or shot to play, etc. o When all players in the group have long putts and so will need to walk back and forth to the hole to attend the flagstick for one another (which sometimes produces uncertainty about who will or should attend for someone else).  In match play, a player without a caddie will now be able to choose to putt with the unattended flagstick in the hole rather than ask the opponent to attend the flagstick, reducing the potential for dispute that can arise when the opponent attends for the player (such as when the opponent fails to remove the flagstick and the ball hits it).  On balance it is expected that there should be no advantage in being able to putt with the unattended flagstick in the hole: o In some cases, the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it might otherwise have been holed, and o In other cases, the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might otherwise have missed. http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf

Ive already read that. It doesn't answer my questions.
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#64 hybrid25

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:41 PM

View Postsui generis, on 03 September 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

Explanation for Rule Change for 2019 -  Ball Played from Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole

Current Rule: Under Rule 17-3, if a player makes a stroke on the putting green and the ball then
hits the unattended flagstick that was left in the hole, the player gets the general penalty.

2019 Rule: Under Rule 13.2a(2):

 There will no longer be a penalty if a ball played from the putting green hits a flagstick
left in the hole.
 Players will not be required to putt with the flagstick in the hole; rather, they will
continue to have the choice to have it removed (which includes having someone attend
the flagstick and remove it after the ball is played).

Reasons for Change:

 Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should
generally help speed up play:

o For example, if a putt is long enough that the player cannot easily see the hole
unless the flagstick is left in, the player currently needs to wait for another person to
attend the flagstick even if it is the playerís turn to play or (in stroke play) if the
player is ready to play and it would save time to go ahead and do so.
o This change could also speed up play for short tap-ins, as the player could simply
putt the ball into the hole without first removing and then replacing the flagstick.

 When the players do not have caddies, the current Rule can result in considerable delay, such as:

o When the opponent (or the other player in stroke play) is raking a greenside bunker
and will be delayed for a minute or two before coming on to the green.
o When other players in stroke play are delayed in coming on to the green for other
reasons, such as a ball search, indecision about what club to use or shot to play, etc.
o When all players in the group have long putts and so will need to walk back and
forth to the hole to attend the flagstick for one another (which sometimes produces
uncertainty about who will or should attend for someone else).

 In match play, a player without a caddie will now be able to choose to putt with the
unattended flagstick in the hole rather than ask the opponent to attend the flagstick,
reducing the potential for dispute that can arise when the opponent attends for the
player (such as when the opponent fails to remove the flagstick and the ball hits it).

 On balance it is expected that there should be no advantage in being able to putt with
the unattended flagstick in the hole:
o In some cases, the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it
might otherwise have been holed, and
o In other cases, the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might
otherwise have missed.

http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf
My point all along is that I feel it will speed up the pace of play a bit. I think also damage to the green will be lessened a bit by virtue of removal and placing it on to the green and returning it to the hole with the possibility of careless digging in the rim of the cup. I think it's a wise Rule and good for the game. You will always get questions about a new policy or revision when enacted, and many rebel by living off their own doubt of what if this, what if that, what if this, etc. At least give it it a chance to fail if it's going to fail, but I don't think it will. Now if they could just take away the distance penalty off an OB shot we'd be all set.

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#65 bladehunter

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:53 PM

View Postpinhigh27, on 03 September 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.  


Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you.  If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But thereís a chance of hitting it slightly  off center and it staying in.  

Now add a flagstick there.  It has almost zero shot at going in.  If it hits the pin its coming out.  Maybe wonít go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.  

Iím telling you that no good player whoís learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in.  Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in.  Because most arent going to do it for you.

Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple

Lol.  And here I was waiting for the physics lesson.  I expected a delay to google. But this is out of hand.

Edited by bladehunter, 03 September 2018 - 06:54 PM.

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#66 hybrid25

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:08 PM

View Postpinhigh27, on 03 September 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.  


Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you.  If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But thereís a chance of hitting it slightly  off center and it staying in.  

Now add a flagstick there.  It has almost zero shot at going in.  If it hits the pin its coming out.  Maybe wonít go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.  

Iím telling you that no good player whoís learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in.  Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in.  Because most arent going to do it for you.

Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple
it really is simple, and people make it more difficult than it really is. Golfers have the choice to leave it in or pull it out. You can play the game you've always played or you can choose to play a bit differently, but the choice is still yours.

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#67 bladehunter

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:23 PM

View Posthybrid25, on 03 September 2018 - 07:08 PM, said:

View Postpinhigh27, on 03 September 2018 - 06:22 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.  


Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you.  If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But thereís a chance of hitting it slightly  off center and it staying in.  

Now add a flagstick there.  It has almost zero shot at going in.  If it hits the pin its coming out.  Maybe wonít go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.  

Iím telling you that no good player whoís learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in.  Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in.  Because most arent going to do it for you.

Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple
it really is simple, and people make it more difficult than it really is. Golfers have the choice to leave it in or pull it out. You can play the game you've always played or you can choose to play a bit differently, but the choice is still yours.

And i get that.  I do.  I just know that there are plenty of rule benders who love this because itís legalized laziness.  Or a legalized backstop and then thereís my opinion ( yes opinion ) that it shouldnít be in with any putt unless tended.  Iím not going to change. Plenty will change. So chances are 75% of the rounds I play wil be split down the middle. And In and out the pin will go.  No way thatís quicker.  

In a casual round of All 4 wanted to putt with the pin in they already can now.  You can be your own committee and enact your own local rule anytime.  

Is it a huge deal ?  No.  Is it a waste of time new rule ?  Yes.   Will it cause more issues than it fixes ?  Most likely

Will we all live ?  Sure ...i hope so.
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#68 sui generis

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:36 PM

View PostLondoner, on 03 September 2018 - 02:59 PM, said:

Definitely going to slow things, the flags going to be in and out like crazy in the wrong 4 ball.

A couple of questions.

If left, does the flag have to be free standing with no one touching it?

On long putts, if you elect to have the flag tended, when do you have to elect it being removed or left?

In the above, what if the person tending the flag leaves it in (or removes it) against your wishes?

You'll have to wait for the Interpretations (formerly known as Decisions). The Interpretations are not available to everyone just yet.
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#69 BB28403

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:48 PM

I like it in, speeds up the round.  It‚Äôs all practice outside of a tourney anyhow.

Edited by BB28403, 03 September 2018 - 07:49 PM.


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#70 Hawkeye77

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 08:25 PM

View Posthybrid25, on 03 September 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

View Postsui generis, on 03 September 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

Explanation for Rule Change for 2019 -  Ball Played from Green Hits Unattended Flagstick in Hole

Current Rule: Under Rule 17-3, if a player makes a stroke on the putting green and the ball then
hits the unattended flagstick that was left in the hole, the player gets the general penalty.

2019 Rule: Under Rule 13.2a(2):

 There will no longer be a penalty if a ball played from the putting green hits a flagstick
left in the hole.
 Players will not be required to putt with the flagstick in the hole; rather, they will
continue to have the choice to have it removed (which includes having someone attend
the flagstick and remove it after the ball is played).

Reasons for Change:

 Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should
generally help speed up play:

o For example, if a putt is long enough that the player cannot easily see the hole
unless the flagstick is left in, the player currently needs to wait for another person to
attend the flagstick even if it is the player's turn to play or (in stroke play) if the
player is ready to play and it would save time to go ahead and do so.
o This change could also speed up play for short tap-ins, as the player could simply
putt the ball into the hole without first removing and then replacing the flagstick.

 When the players do not have caddies, the current Rule can result in considerable delay, such as:

o When the opponent (or the other player in stroke play) is raking a greenside bunker
and will be delayed for a minute or two before coming on to the green.
o When other players in stroke play are delayed in coming on to the green for other
reasons, such as a ball search, indecision about what club to use or shot to play, etc.
o When all players in the group have long putts and so will need to walk back and
forth to the hole to attend the flagstick for one another (which sometimes produces
uncertainty about who will or should attend for someone else).

 In match play, a player without a caddie will now be able to choose to putt with the
unattended flagstick in the hole rather than ask the opponent to attend the flagstick,
reducing the potential for dispute that can arise when the opponent attends for the
player (such as when the opponent fails to remove the flagstick and the ball hits it).

 On balance it is expected that there should be no advantage in being able to putt with
the unattended flagstick in the hole:
o In some cases, the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it
might otherwise have been holed, and
o In other cases, the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might
otherwise have missed.

http://www.usga.org/...olf for 2019 (1).pdf
My point all along is that I feel it will speed up the pace of play a bit. I think also damage to the green will be lessened a bit by virtue of removal and placing it on to the green and returning it to the hole with the possibility of careless digging in the rim of the cup. I think it's a wise Rule and good for the game. You will always get questions about a new policy or revision when enacted, and many rebel by living off their own doubt of what if this, what if that, what if this, etc. At least give it it a chance to fail if it's going to fail, but I don't think it will. Now if they could just take away the distance penalty off an OB shot we'd be all set.

LOL, the ridiculous OB rule they've come up with should be good enough!


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#71 Hawkeye77

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 08:36 PM

Have never, with or without caddies, seen any significant or frankly, noticeable, time wasted by anyone I've played with, followed, etc. because of the status of the flagstick being out or in.  Slow play will be slow play, this is 99th on a priority list of 100 things you might do, and the first 99 will all be negated just because people that are unreasonably slow players aren't that way because of the rules.  I would hazard a guess in 90% plus of the rounds played out there on a weekend across the country actual rules issues aren't slowing folks down - it's personalities and ignorance of basic etiquette and lack of skill, IMO.

One or two people per foursome want the stick in, play is now slowed down covering those issues for each person vs. automatically out while putting (it can't be faster).  Then we'll have the "scientists" out there wanting it in, then out, then in as they 3 putt across the green because they've read something about odds from various distances, etc.

Only folks it would have made sense for is people playing alone, who now can't post scores anyway, and were never holding anyone up.

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#72 SNIPERBBB

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 08:57 PM

Once the novelty runs wears out, things really wont change really outside of maybe the first guy getting on the green with a long putt leaving the pin in and the guy that just knocked a shot close will tap it in without having to fool with the flag.

Cant see it leading to any real problems amongst most "normal" golfers.
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#73 sailfishchris

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 08:57 PM

You could just let the guys who want the pin in putt out first. Then remove the pin for the guys who want it out. Or vice versa- It won't speed things up but, it will give some guys more time too read the green.... aim point.....yoga.
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#74 bladehunter

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 09:20 PM

View PostHawkeye77, on 03 September 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Have never, with or without caddies, seen any significant or frankly, noticeable, time wasted by anyone I've played with, followed, etc. because of the status of the flagstick being out or in.  Slow play will be slow play, this is 99th on a priority list of 100 things you might do, and the first 99 will all be negated just because people that are unreasonably slow players aren't that way because of the rules.  I would hazard a guess in 90% plus of the rounds played out there on a weekend across the country actual rules issues aren't slowing folks down - it's personalities and ignorance of basic etiquette and lack of skill, IMO.

One or two people per foursome want the stick in, play is now slowed down covering those issues for each person vs. automatically out while putting (it can't be faster).  Then we'll have the "scientists" out there wanting it in, then out, then in as they 3 putt across the green because they've read something about odds from various distances, etc.

Only folks it would have made sense for is people playing alone, who now can't post scores anyway, and were never holding anyone up.


holy crap.. I hadnt thought of that ..The irony ... it would be good for solos.. BUT The usga decided to call all of them/us liars and refuse those scores.yet still not require a markers signature for groups..(dumb as can be) ..  Double irony is that i dont know a single sand bagger who plays alone.. They Travel in packs always.
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#75 b.mattay

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 09:35 PM

View Postpinhigh27, on 03 September 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:


Would have definitely hit the back lip and kept going. Anything with enough speed to bounce off flag out of hole will not stay in a hole without a flag. I think literally only time a flag can hurt you is if it's crooked or you hit it on fly with approach.

Patently false, especially on uphill or downhill chips/putts


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#76 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 10:17 PM

The pin is out if the ball is on the green. I would like to think I will never hit a putt poorly enough where the pin helps more than hurts. If playing by myself, the RoGs are irrelevant anyway.
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#77 Mcgeeno

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 11:51 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 September 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

The pin is out if the ball is on the green. I would like to think I will never hit a putt poorly enough where the pin helps more than hurts. If playing by myself, the RoGs are irrelevant anyway.

Pelz has done robotic tests showing the flag helps on almost every pace or angle from different distances.

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#78 pinhigh27

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 04:32 AM

View Postb.mattay, on 03 September 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

View Postpinhigh27, on 03 September 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Would have definitely hit the back lip and kept going. Anything with enough speed to bounce off flag out of hole will not stay in a hole without a flag. I think literally only time a flag can hurt you is if it's crooked or you hit it on fly with approach.

Patently false, especially on uphill or downhill chips/putts

not what testing shows but ok . you guys keep clinging to your 1 in a million where the ball hits the cup off-center and somehow goes in, when it would have normally rolled 10 feet by.
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#79 hybrid25

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 04:56 AM

what if, what if?

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#80 bladehunter

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 07:49 AM

so let me pose this question..

How many "pin in" fans here also cry out against pros seen on TV leaving balls by the hole for others to use as backstops ?    How can you be a fan of one and not the other ? I say that using your opinion that the flag will help more than it hurts.

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#81 bladehunter

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 07:50 AM

View Posthybrid25, on 04 September 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

what if, what if?

the examination of the hypothetical is how good rules and decisions are made.
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#82 ThinkingPlus

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 08:28 AM

View PostMcgeeno, on 03 September 2018 - 11:51 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 03 September 2018 - 10:17 PM, said:

The pin is out if the ball is on the green. I would like to think I will never hit a putt poorly enough where the pin helps more than hurts. If playing by myself, the RoGs are irrelevant anyway.

Pelz has done robotic tests showing the flag helps on almost every pace or angle from different distances.
I have not read Pelz work.  I have heard him discuss caveats.  One is that the pin cannot be leaning which occurs more often than one would like.  Also different diameter pins impact the results.  I am not sure what he used or if he tested against all sizes available.  Knowing the details in exactly how the tests were performed and how the data was analyzed is very important to understanding and applying the conclusions.
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#83 pinhigh27

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 09:35 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 04 September 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

so let me pose this question..

How many "pin in" fans here also cry out against pros seen on TV leaving balls by the hole for others to use as backstops ?    How can you be a fan of one and not the other ? I say that using your opinion that the flag will help more than it hurts.

Not sure how one person going out of their way to help their competitor is similar to using the rules to your advantage. Golf is a game of intent. If you purposefully don't mark your ball to help your playing partner, that is wrong IMO. If the rules say you can keep the flag in, then you can keep the flag in.
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#84 Hawkeye77

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 09:42 AM

View Postpinhigh27, on 04 September 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 04 September 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

so let me pose this question..

How many "pin in" fans here also cry out against pros seen on TV leaving balls by the hole for others to use as backstops ? How can you be a fan of one and not the other ? I say that using your opinion that the flag will help more than it hurts.

Not sure how one person going out of their way to help their competitor is similar to using the rules to your advantage. Golf is a game of intent. If you purposefully don't mark your ball to help your playing partner, that is wrong IMO. If the rules say you can keep the flag in, then you can keep the flag in.

In fairness, I don't think he's talking about rules in a literal way so much as the idea that if the pin is demonstrated to be an aid in play, it is taking some measure of skill out of the game, and getting artificial, if not intentional assistance, with the help of an unnecessary rules change?

But, that's just my take.

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#85 bladehunter

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 09:47 AM

View Postpinhigh27, on 04 September 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 04 September 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

so let me pose this question..

How many "pin in" fans here also cry out against pros seen on TV leaving balls by the hole for others to use as backstops ?    How can you be a fan of one and not the other ? I say that using your opinion that the flag will help more than it hurts.

Not sure how one person going out of their way to help their competitor is similar to using the rules to your advantage. Golf is a game of intent. If you purposefully don't mark your ball to help your playing partner, that is wrong IMO. If the rules say you can keep the flag in, then you can keep the flag in.

So if the rule changed to allow purposeful backstopping it would be ok ?

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#86 b.mattay

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 10:20 AM

View Postpinhigh27, on 04 September 2018 - 04:32 AM, said:

View Postb.mattay, on 03 September 2018 - 09:35 PM, said:

View Postpinhigh27, on 03 September 2018 - 10:17 AM, said:

Would have definitely hit the back lip and kept going. Anything with enough speed to bounce off flag out of hole will not stay in a hole without a flag. I think literally only time a flag can hurt you is if it's crooked or you hit it on fly with approach.

Patently false, especially on uphill or downhill chips/putts

not what testing shows but ok . you guys keep clinging to your 1 in a million where the ball hits the cup off-center and somehow goes in, when it would have normally rolled 10 feet by.

Depends highly on flagstick thickness and how well hole is cut relative to slope.

Edited by b.mattay, 04 September 2018 - 10:20 AM.


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#87 stickner

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 12:38 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 03 September 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Have never, with or without caddies, seen any significant or frankly, noticeable, time wasted by anyone I've played with, followed, etc. because of the status of the flagstick being out or in.  Slow play will be slow play, this is 99th on a priority list of 100 things you might do, and the first 99 will all be negated just because people that are unreasonably slow players aren't that way because of the rules.  I would hazard a guess in 90% plus of the rounds played out there on a weekend across the country actual rules issues aren't slowing folks down - it's personalities and ignorance of basic etiquette and lack of skill, IMO.

One or two people per foursome want the stick in, play is now slowed down covering those issues for each person vs. automatically out while putting (it can't be faster).  Then we'll have the "scientists" out there wanting it in, then out, then in as they 3 putt across the green because they've read something about odds from various distances, etc.

Only folks it would have made sense for is people playing alone, who now can't post scores anyway, and were never holding anyone up.


holy crap.. I hadnt thought of that ..The irony ... it would be good for solos.. BUT The usga decided to call all of them/us liars and refuse those scores.yet still not require a markers signature for groups..(dumb as can be) ..  Double irony is that i dont know a single sand bagger who plays alone.. They Travel in packs always.

I never understood not being able to post your score if you play as a single.

Rule 1 states:

"You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent..."


The USGA expects you to play with integrity and by the rules, including calling penalties on yourself (even if nobody else sees the infraction).

Why can't those standards be applied to someone playing solo?

Edited by stickner, 04 September 2018 - 12:40 PM.


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#88 bladehunter

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 01:12 PM

View Poststickner, on 04 September 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 03 September 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Have never, with or without caddies, seen any significant or frankly, noticeable, time wasted by anyone I've played with, followed, etc. because of the status of the flagstick being out or in.  Slow play will be slow play, this is 99th on a priority list of 100 things you might do, and the first 99 will all be negated just because people that are unreasonably slow players aren't that way because of the rules.  I would hazard a guess in 90% plus of the rounds played out there on a weekend across the country actual rules issues aren't slowing folks down - it's personalities and ignorance of basic etiquette and lack of skill, IMO.

One or two people per foursome want the stick in, play is now slowed down covering those issues for each person vs. automatically out while putting (it can't be faster).  Then we'll have the "scientists" out there wanting it in, then out, then in as they 3 putt across the green because they've read something about odds from various distances, etc.

Only folks it would have made sense for is people playing alone, who now can't post scores anyway, and were never holding anyone up.


holy crap.. I hadnt thought of that ..The irony ... it would be good for solos.. BUT The usga decided to call all of them/us liars and refuse those scores.yet still not require a markers signature for groups..(dumb as can be) ..  Double irony is that i dont know a single sand bagger who plays alone.. They Travel in packs always.

I never understood not being able to post your score if you play as a single.

Rule 1 states:

"You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent..."


The USGA expects you to play with integrity and by the rules, including calling penalties on yourself (even if nobody else sees the infraction).

Why can't those standards be applied to someone playing solo?

Absolutely agree.  And on the other hand Iím ok with not allowing single scores to post IF they required everyone else to post through the club handicap committee or with signature of a marker.  And letís say canít use the same marker for consecutive rounds.  
Instead they leave it as the Wild West and somehow claim to have done something by stopping singles.  WHich by the way thereís no way to police either.  A true cheater can sit on his couch and enter 18 scores in 30 min and create any cap he wants.  Yet somehow singles were an issue.  Smh.
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#89 sui generis

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 01:14 PM

View Poststickner, on 04 September 2018 - 12:38 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 03 September 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

View PostHawkeye77, on 03 September 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Have never, with or without caddies, seen any significant or frankly, noticeable, time wasted by anyone I've played with, followed, etc. because of the status of the flagstick being out or in.  Slow play will be slow play, this is 99th on a priority list of 100 things you might do, and the first 99 will all be negated just because people that are unreasonably slow players aren't that way because of the rules.  I would hazard a guess in 90% plus of the rounds played out there on a weekend across the country actual rules issues aren't slowing folks down - it's personalities and ignorance of basic etiquette and lack of skill, IMO.

One or two people per foursome want the stick in, play is now slowed down covering those issues for each person vs. automatically out while putting (it can't be faster).  Then we'll have the "scientists" out there wanting it in, then out, then in as they 3 putt across the green because they've read something about odds from various distances, etc.

Only folks it would have made sense for is people playing alone, who now can't post scores anyway, and were never holding anyone up.


holy crap.. I hadnt thought of that ..The irony ... it would be good for solos.. BUT The usga decided to call all of them/us liars and refuse those scores.yet still not require a markers signature for groups..(dumb as can be) ..  Double irony is that i dont know a single sand bagger who plays alone.. They Travel in packs always.

I never understood not being able to post your score if you play as a single.

Rule 1 states:

"You are responsible for applying your own penalties if you breach a Rule, so that you cannot gain any potential advantage over your opponent..."


The USGA expects you to play with integrity and by the rules, including calling penalties on yourself (even if nobody else sees the infraction).

Why can't those standards be applied to someone playing solo?

This thread is about 2019 Rule 13.2.
Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#90 SirFuego

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 01:50 PM

View PostPingEye2, on 02 September 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

I told my son to do what Bryson does since he will probably have all the stats worked out!

I'm being 100% serious when I say that this is probably the best suggestion in the thread so far.  Fact of the matter is that without hard data, it's impossible to know when it is statistically optimal to pull the flag vs leave it in.  Anything else is just speculation formed by anecdotal evidence.  The experiments Pelz did years ago are about as close as we have come.  There are of course some limitations to that work (pin width and at what point does a leaning flag become detrimental), but it's obviously something someone can re-create with enough time or money to pay someone to do it.  I'm sure Bryson would be willing to throw a few grand at someone to at least capture the data.  I could even see some college professors conducting these experiments to get their names out to the masses.

I'd imagine the USGA conducted similar studies when they decided to change the rules.

Another speculative variable in this whole ordeal is does the flag being in the hole impact one's ability to actually aim at the hole?  Or is the flag itself a distraction to throw off one's aim?

Bottom line is that unless there are "definitive" studies done on it, it's all speculation and it'll be a heavily debated topic where the most out-spoken have their own opinion and most people will just say to do whatever works for you as long as it doesn't slow down play.

Edited by SirFuego, 04 September 2018 - 01:56 PM.


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