Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

* - - - - 1 votes

How many hours to become high level college player


68 replies to this topic

#31 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 947 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 456

Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:29 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 27 August 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

I stand corrected.  You show me a player that averages 14-15 GIR from 6900+ yardages driving 250.  Stenson leads the tour at 75% GIR.

I can name more than a few.  One was a recent runner up at US Am Public Links

That isn't their average over the course of their career.  Anyone at anytime can catch lightning in a bottle and have a great week.  Over the course of a career you wouldn't gamble on that 250 yard drive week in and week out to win.

If your kid is only doing 250 it might be good to have a talk with them if they think there going to dominate the pga tour. But at the same time I could see where they get a scholarship if they have good fundamentals and are scoring decent.

One issue I see too many people get caught up in driving distance and forget  is only a factor in a few holes a round.  The vast majority or holes are not par 5s or long par 4 on any course.  More shots are actually lost missing fairways, greens and not converting putts within 10 feet.

I know this because I have seen it first hand as there is one girl on the local tour. I would say she drives between 150-180. It a good drive but not long either for what I would consider a top junior girl at 11-12. The thing is she plays her game well and hits fairways and GIR and makes the putts. When she short for a hole she can place the ball for a easy chip to still make par. The thing is she is hard to beat because she still scores low and is consistent. I learned you have to play with what you got rather then try and do something you canít.

Edited by tiger1873, 27 August 2018 - 04:36 PM.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#32 BertGA

BertGA

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 245 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 500442
  • Joined: 04/29/2018
  • Location:Georgia
GolfWRX Likes : 314

Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:38 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 27 August 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

I stand corrected.  You show me a player that averages 14-15 GIR from 6900+ yardages driving 250.  Stenson leads the tour at 75% GIR.

I can name more than a few.  One was a recent runner up at US Am Public Links

That isn't their average over the course of their career.  Anyone at anytime can catch lightning in a bottle and have a great week.  Over the course of a career you wouldn't gamble on that 250 yard drive week in and week out to win.

If your kid is only doing 250 it might be good to have a talk with them if they think there going to dominate the pga tour. But at the same time I could see where they get a scholarship if they have good fundamentals and are scoring decent.

One issue I see too many people get caught up in driving distance and forget  is only a factor in a few holes a round.  The vast majority or holes are not par 5s or long par 4 on any course.  More shots are actually lost missing fairways, greens and not converting putts within 10 feet.

I know this because I have seen it first hand as there is one girl on the local tour. I would say she drives between 150-180. It a good drive but not long either for what I would consider a top junior girl at 11-12. The thing is she plays her game well and hits fairways and GIR and makes the putts. When she short for a hole she can place the ball for a easy chip to still make par. The thing is she is hard to beat because she still scores low and is consistent. I learned you have to play with what you got rather then try and do something you canít.

That works at 11-12. That game plan wonít play out at D1.

2

#33 heavy_hitter

heavy_hitter

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,864 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 366715
  • Joined: 03/16/2015
GolfWRX Likes : 2557

Posted 27 August 2018 - 04:55 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 27 August 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

I stand corrected.  You show me a player that averages 14-15 GIR from 6900+ yardages driving 250.  Stenson leads the tour at 75% GIR.

I can name more than a few.  One was a recent runner up at US Am Public Links

That isn't their average over the course of their career.  Anyone at anytime can catch lightning in a bottle and have a great week.  Over the course of a career you wouldn't gamble on that 250 yard drive week in and week out to win.

If your kid is only doing 250 it might be good to have a talk with them if they think there going to dominate the pga tour. But at the same time I could see where they get a scholarship if they have good fundamentals and are scoring decent.

One issue I see too many people get caught up in driving distance and forget  is only a factor in a few holes a round.  The vast majority or holes are not par 5s or long par 4 on any course.  More shots are actually lost missing fairways, greens and not converting putts within 10 feet.

I know this because I have seen it first hand as there is one girl on the local tour. I would say she drives between 150-180. It a good drive but not long either for what I would consider a top junior girl at 11-12. The thing is she plays her game well and hits fairways and GIR and makes the putts. When she short for a hole she can place the ball for a easy chip to still make par. The thing is she is hard to beat because she still scores low and is consistent. I learned you have to play with what you got rather then try and do something you can't.

Guys play a much different game.

3

#34 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:13 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

There was a 497 par 4 at the us junior am this year.  So he has no chance of a GIR.  His scrambling must be better than anyone on PGA.  He must average 20 putts a round.  240?!

Obviously you canít comprehend someone nothitting it far but being able to shoot low scores.  He holds the course record on a 7261 yard course here where he shot 61, and regularly shoots rounds in the low 60s. And guess what there are several almost 500 yard par 4s on that course. He shot the course record at the toughest course in Jacksonville in my opinion the first time he played it.  He regularly shoots in the low 60s on 7,000+ yard courses and was one of the top college golfers in the country.  

Btw the course where he made it to the finals of the US Pub Links was a 7680 yards par 71.  

He beat Bryson, Xander, Zach Blair, and others who are now orhave played on Tour.

4

#35 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:28 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

There was a 497 par 4 at the us junior am this year.  So he has no chance of a GIR.  His scrambling must be better than anyone on PGA.  He must average 20 putts a round.  240?!

Obviously you canít comprehend someone nothitting it far but being able to shoot low scores.  He holds the course record on a 7261 yard course here where he shot 61, and regularly shoots rounds in the low 60s. And guess what there are several almost 500 yard par 4s on that course. He shot the course record at the toughest course in Jacksonville in my opinion the first time he played it.  He regularly shoots in the low 60s on 7,000+ yard courses and was one of the top college golfers in the country.  

Btw the course where he made it to the finals of the US Pub Links was a 7680 yards par 71.  

He beat Bryson, Xander, Zach Blair, and others who are now orhave played on Tour.

I can comprehend it.  The OP was basically asking what it takes to get into a top D1.  If youíre telling me that distance isnít one of the top 3 things considered by D1 coaches, please continue to educate me.  BC my experience is completely different.

Donít tell us about one outlier that did it.  I can tell you about a one armed MLB pitcher as well.


5

#36 leezer99

leezer99

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,215 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94152
  • Joined: 09/10/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 1324

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:31 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:


I can comprehend it.  The OP was basically asking what it takes to get into a top D1.  If you're telling me that distance isn't one of the top 3 things considered by D1 coaches, please continue to educate me.  BC my experience is completely different.

Don't tell us about one outlier that did it.  I can tell you about a one armed MLB pitcher as well.

Angels phenom Jim Abbott.

6

#37 Shilgy

Shilgy

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,857 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 235237
  • Joined: 03/07/2013
  • Location:Phoenix
  • Handicap:3.1
GolfWRX Likes : 7340

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:38 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

There was a 497 par 4 at the us junior am this year.  So he has no chance of a GIR.  His scrambling must be better than anyone on PGA.  He must average 20 putts a round.  240?!

Obviously you canít comprehend someone nothitting it far but being able to shoot low scores.  He holds the course record on a 7261 yard course here where he shot 61, and regularly shoots rounds in the low 60s. And guess what there are several almost 500 yard par 4s on that course. He shot the course record at the toughest course in Jacksonville in my opinion the first time he played it.  He regularly shoots in the low 60s on 7,000+ yard courses and was one of the top college golfers in the country.  

Btw the course where he made it to the finals of the US Pub Links was a 7680 yards par 71.  

He beat Bryson, Xander, Zach Blair, and others who are now orhave played on Tour.
I can comprehend a shorter hitter playing well. But if that is the norm for him I'm asking what is lacking? He is 29 years old and time is running out. He is not making a good living on the local tour.
TM M3 440 10* Graphite Design AD IZ 6x
TM M1 3w 14*  Graphite Design BB7s
TM M2  5w 18* Fujikura Atmos TS Blue 8S or Srixon U65 18° Atmos Red 7s
Adams A12 UST Silver S 21°
Srixon Z765 5-AW Nippon Pro Modus3 125S
Titleist Vokey 54*F  58*S
Toulon Garage Rochester flow neck H5/ Toulon Rochester stock

To paraphrase Dr Seuss: Don't cry because the round of golf is over-smile because it happened .  :)

7

#38 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:41 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:28 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

There was a 497 par 4 at the us junior am this year.  So he has no chance of a GIR.  His scrambling must be better than anyone on PGA.  He must average 20 putts a round.  240?!

Obviously you canít comprehend someone nothitting it far but being able to shoot low scores.  He holds the course record on a 7261 yard course here where he shot 61, and regularly shoots rounds in the low 60s. And guess what there are several almost 500 yard par 4s on that course. He shot the course record at the toughest course in Jacksonville in my opinion the first time he played it.  He regularly shoots in the low 60s on 7,000+ yard courses and was one of the top college golfers in the country.  

Btw the course where he made it to the finals of the US Pub Links was a 7680 yards par 71.  

He beat Bryson, Xander, Zach Blair, and others who are now orhave played on Tour.

I can comprehend it.  The OP was basically asking what it takes to get into a top D1.  If youíre telling me that distance isnít one of the top 3 things considered by D1 coaches, please continue to educate me.  BC my experience is completely different.

Donít tell us about one outlier that did it.  I can tell you about a one armed MLB pitcher as well.

Considering Iíve sent a ton of kids to top D1 programs I have a pretty good idea.   A good number of those kids only swing/swung around 100-105 mph.  One of which shot 66 to qualify for the US Jr this year that you were discussing earlier.  Distance is a factor but the biggest factor is scoring average.   Itís not one outlier.  One of the top 25 teams in the country had 4 recruits in two years under 5í8 and all were pretty short hitters.  Two of those recruits are now the 1 and 2 players and two of the top players in the country.  Theyíve gotten a bit longer in the 4 years theyíve been in college but are far from bombers and shorter than PGA Tour average.   If you can fly the ball 250-260 and can shoot good scores you can play at a top D1 program.   I can show a ton of examples of exactly that.

8

#39 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:50 PM

Of course scoring average at reputable events and polo/jgs rankings is the number one factor.  Where we disagree is how one achieves that scoring average/ranking.  In my opinion and what Iíve been able to see throughout the high school procsss is that there is a general correlation between distance and scoring average.  Iím not talking about the 10% that are short and ranked top 100.  Iím sure thatís not what OP was asking as well - trying to fight to be in the top 10% of short hitters.  And when I say short - Iím not talking 240!  Iím talking 270-280 total driving distance.  I would consider that very average at the AJGA level, especially at the invitational level.

9

#40 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 05:54 PM

View PostShilgy, on 27 August 2018 - 05:38 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 05:13 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

There was a 497 par 4 at the us junior am this year.  So he has no chance of a GIR.  His scrambling must be better than anyone on PGA.  He must average 20 putts a round.  240?!

Obviously you canít comprehend someone nothitting it far but being able to shoot low scores.  He holds the course record on a 7261 yard course here where he shot 61, and regularly shoots rounds in the low 60s. And guess what there are several almost 500 yard par 4s on that course. He shot the course record at the toughest course in Jacksonville in my opinion the first time he played it.  He regularly shoots in the low 60s on 7,000+ yard courses and was one of the top college golfers in the country.  

Btw the course where he made it to the finals of the US Pub Links was a 7680 yards par 71.  

He beat Bryson, Xander, Zach Blair, and others who are now orhave played on Tour.
I can comprehend a shorter hitter playing well. But if that is the norm for him I'm asking what is lacking? He is 29 years old and time is running out. He is not making a good living on the local tour.

I hadnít gotten to your post yet.  He hasnít played as well out of the country or on the Web.com tour.  He was also just out of college and inexperienced the only year he played on the Web.   What do you define as a good living?  Heís making more than the average engineer playing golf for a living.  Heís made at least $80,000 this year which is more than some guys playing in Web.com tour finals have made.


Professional golf is hard.  You need a lot of luck along with a lot of skill.  Here are his results from another tour this year.  Could also post another tour where heís also leading the money list.

Posted Image


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#41 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:00 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Of course scoring average at reputable events and polo/jgs rankings is the number one factor.  Where we disagree is how one achieves that scoring average/ranking.  In my opinion and what Iíve been able to see throughout the high school procsss is that there is a general correlation between distance and scoring average.  Iím not talking about the 10% that are short and ranked top 100.  Iím sure thatís not what OP was asking as well - trying to fight to be in the top 10% of short hitters.  And when I say short - Iím not talking 240!  Iím talking 270-280 total driving distance.  I would consider that very average at the AJGA level, especially at the invitational level.

I have a top 100 player in every class all the way until 2023 and none are longer than 270-280 at sea level in FL.   And Iím taking kids who have played in and some also won some of the biggest junior events in the country.  One who is a college freshman who currently has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top college teams in the country.  


And again Kevin flies it 240ish, he hits it 265.  But you donít seem to actually want to read what anyone else writes as youíve been corrected on that already.

Edited by iteachgolf, 27 August 2018 - 06:01 PM.


11

#42 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:06 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Of course scoring average at reputable events and polo/jgs rankings is the number one factor.  Where we disagree is how one achieves that scoring average/ranking.  In my opinion and what Iíve been able to see throughout the high school procsss is that there is a general correlation between distance and scoring average.  Iím not talking about the 10% that are short and ranked top 100.  Iím sure thatís not what OP was asking as well - trying to fight to be in the top 10% of short hitters.  And when I say short - Iím not talking 240!  Iím talking 270-280 total driving distance.  I would consider that very average at the AJGA level, especially at the invitational level.

I have a top 100 player in every class all the way until 2023 and none are longer than 270-280 at sea level in FL.   And Iím taking kids who have played in and some also won some of the biggest junior events in the country.  One who is a college freshman who currently has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top college teams in the country.  


And again Kevin flies it 240ish, he hits it 265.  But you donít seem to actually want to read what anyone else writes as youíve been corrected on that already.

You donít coach a single male junior golfer that can hit it 300 total?

12

#43 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 947 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 456

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:14 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 27 August 2018 - 04:55 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 04:29 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 27 August 2018 - 02:48 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

I stand corrected.  You show me a player that averages 14-15 GIR from 6900+ yardages driving 250.  Stenson leads the tour at 75% GIR.

I can name more than a few.  One was a recent runner up at US Am Public Links

That isn't their average over the course of their career.  Anyone at anytime can catch lightning in a bottle and have a great week.  Over the course of a career you wouldn't gamble on that 250 yard drive week in and week out to win.

If your kid is only doing 250 it might be good to have a talk with them if they think there going to dominate the pga tour. But at the same time I could see where they get a scholarship if they have good fundamentals and are scoring decent.

One issue I see too many people get caught up in driving distance and forget  is only a factor in a few holes a round.  The vast majority or holes are not par 5s or long par 4 on any course.  More shots are actually lost missing fairways, greens and not converting putts within 10 feet.

I know this because I have seen it first hand as there is one girl on the local tour. I would say she drives between 150-180. It a good drive but not long either for what I would consider a top junior girl at 11-12. The thing is she plays her game well and hits fairways and GIR and makes the putts. When she short for a hole she can place the ball for a easy chip to still make par. The thing is she is hard to beat because she still scores low and is consistent. I learned you have to play with what you got rather then try and do something you can't.

Guys play a much different game.

I am not sure if guys are that different the only thing is not many girls can hit 300 yards so they have to work on different aspects of the game to win.  The lpga is a good example of how short hitters can win. If long drivers were the key Lexi Thompson and a few other would have been unstoppable.

Edited by tiger1873, 27 August 2018 - 06:14 PM.


13

#44 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:15 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Of course scoring average at reputable events and polo/jgs rankings is the number one factor.  Where we disagree is how one achieves that scoring average/ranking.  In my opinion and what Iíve been able to see throughout the high school procsss is that there is a general correlation between distance and scoring average.  Iím not talking about the 10% that are short and ranked top 100.  Iím sure thatís not what OP was asking as well - trying to fight to be in the top 10% of short hitters.  And when I say short - Iím not talking 240!  Iím talking 270-280 total driving distance.  I would consider that very average at the AJGA level, especially at the invitational level.

I have a top 100 player in every class all the way until 2023 and none are longer than 270-280 at sea level in FL.   And Iím taking kids who have played in and some also won some of the biggest junior events in the country.  One who is a college freshman who currently has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top college teams in the country.  


And again Kevin flies it 240ish, he hits it 265.  But you donít seem to actually want to read what anyone else writes as youíve been corrected on that already.

You donít coach a single male junior golfer that can hit it 300 total?

Can on occasion or averages 300?  Plenty can if every condition is perfect hit it 300 yes.  But none would say they average 300.  Almost all swing between 103-110 and fly he ball 250-270.  The 2023 only hits it about 240 yards.  By the time they graduate college they will all swing 110+.   Hitting it a legit 300 in FL at sea level is very long on overwhelming majority of courses.  Thereís a big difference between having 80 yards in on a 400 yard dogleg and actually hitting a ball 300 yards in a straight line.  

Now I do have a decent number who are in college who swing 117-125 mph, and I have plenty of pros who swing 118+.

The top jr I teach is a tournament +7.6 handicap and swings 108 (was 2018 grad)

Edited by iteachgolf, 27 August 2018 - 06:19 PM.


14

#45 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:23 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Of course scoring average at reputable events and polo/jgs rankings is the number one factor.  Where we disagree is how one achieves that scoring average/ranking.  In my opinion and what Iíve been able to see throughout the high school procsss is that there is a general correlation between distance and scoring average.  Iím not talking about the 10% that are short and ranked top 100.  Iím sure thatís not what OP was asking as well - trying to fight to be in the top 10% of short hitters.  And when I say short - Iím not talking 240!  Iím talking 270-280 total driving distance.  I would consider that very average at the AJGA level, especially at the invitational level.

I have a top 100 player in every class all the way until 2023 and none are longer than 270-280 at sea level in FL.   And Iím taking kids who have played in and some also won some of the biggest junior events in the country.  One who is a college freshman who currently has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top college teams in the country.  


And again Kevin flies it 240ish, he hits it 265.  But you donít seem to actually want to read what anyone else writes as youíve been corrected on that already.

You donít coach a single male junior golfer that can hit it 300 total?

Can on occasion or averages 300?  Plenty can if every condition is perfect hit it 300 yes.  But none would say they average 300.  Almost all swing between 103-110 and fly he ball 250-270.  The 2023 only hits it about 240 yards.  By the time they graduate college they will all swing 110+.   Hitting it a legit 300 in FL at sea level is very long on overwhelming majority of courses.  

Now I do have a decent number who are in college who swing 117-125 mph, and I have plenty of pros who swing 118+.

Iím not talking average.  But I am talking 110+ swing speed on trackman.  I donít know why we keep creeping up the numbers.  A poster started this dispute by saying he thinks a 250 driver has a good shot at D1.  Then he followed up by saying thatís great with 80% GIR.  80%!  Then you added that you knew of a player that was a top amateur with 240 carry.  Now weíre at 270-280 average.  What are we talking about?!  My point was that distance matters.  That the ability to swing 115 mph or otherwise has the ideal setup to poke it 300 is very important in not only getting into a top D1, but playing on the traveling 5.   I know it does to Division I coaches.  Theyíve said it to me.  You are saying that distance has no bearing in recruitment efforts so long as the kid has shown the ability to score.  Thereís an entire thread about an OSU player that consistently qualifies but doesnít get to travel bc he is perceived as short.


15

#46 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:27 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Iteach is spot on what he talking about.

Here is the average distances on the pga and lpga tour from track man.This is for everyone not just the leaders. They average 275 yards which tells me some are obviously hitting it less and some more.  The lpga only hits it only 218.  

You have to remember that this is the best tour with the best players so the distances will for sure be less the lower you go.  Most people over estimate what there or there competitors are driving the ball. It is very easy to do.

https://blog.trackma...age-tour-stats/

Thatís carry with 113 swing speed.  Iteach is talking 97mph swing speed.

16

#47 darter79

darter79

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 600 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 66967
  • Joined: 10/03/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 479

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:28 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Iteach is spot on what he talking about.

Here is the average distances on the pga and lpga tour from track man.This is for everyone not just the leaders. They average 275 yards which tells me some are obviously hitting it less and some more.  The lpga only hits it only 218.  

You have to remember that this is the best tour with the best players so the distances will for sure be less the lower you go.  Most people over estimate what there or there competitors are driving the ball. It is very easy to do.

https://blog.trackma...age-tour-stats/

That is carry something to note. You take 275 carry then thats a 300+. Same thing on the lpga 218 thats closer to the 250 mark.

17

#48 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 947 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 456

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:35 PM

View Postdarter79, on 27 August 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Iteach is spot on what he talking about.

Here is the average distances on the pga and lpga tour from track man.This is for everyone not just the leaders. They average 275 yards which tells me some are obviously hitting it less and some more.  The lpga only hits it only 218.  

You have to remember that this is the best tour with the best players so the distances will for sure be less the lower you go.  Most people over estimate what there or there competitors are driving the ball. It is very easy to do.

https://blog.trackma...age-tour-stats/

That is carry something to note. You take 275 carry then thats a 300+. Same thing on the lpga 218 thats closer to the 250 mark.

I think people are getting carried away the original question is about D1 college.  I am pretty sure there not all hitting I t 300 yards just to be competitive.

Does it help to hit far yes I donít thing anyone disputes that. But if someone canít hit that far there are gains in other areas you can make and still be a scratch golfer.

Only a few players ever could hit far and have a short game. We could probably count them on one hand. The last one we saw was Tiger Woods in his prime. I donít think anyone on tour Today is as good as he was in his prime when it comes to the short game. He is not the same today and why he is not winning.

Edited by tiger1873, 27 August 2018 - 06:38 PM.


18

#49 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:40 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 27 August 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Iteach is spot on what he talking about.

Here is the average distances on the pga and lpga tour from track man.This is for everyone not just the leaders. They average 275 yards which tells me some are obviously hitting it less and some more.  The lpga only hits it only 218.  

You have to remember that this is the best tour with the best players so the distances will for sure be less the lower you go.  Most people over estimate what there or there competitors are driving the ball. It is very easy to do.

https://blog.trackma...age-tour-stats/

That is carry something to note. You take 275 carry then thats a 300+. Same thing on the lpga 218 thats closer to the 250 mark.

I think people are getting carried away the original question is about D1 college.  I am pretty sure there not all hitting I t 300 yards just to be competitive.

Does it help to hit far yes I donít thing anyone disputes that. But if someone canít hit that far there are gains in other areas you can make and still be a scratch golfer.

Only a few players ever could hit far and have a short game. We could probably count them on one hand. The last one we saw was Tiger Woods in his prime. I donít think anyone on tour Today is as good as he was in his prime when it comes to the short game. He is not the same today and why he is not winning.

And therein lies our disagreement.  I donít think you grasp the current state of junior golf.  Kids are long with stellar short games.  I donít even know why we keep arguing about this.  Just watch the D1 championship - individual or team play.  Watch the junior am.  Go to an AJGA event.  Read threads about parents of collegiate golfers.  Weíre not tallking about just making the team are we?  Arenít we talking about be a playing D1 player?

Edited by yellowlover519, 27 August 2018 - 06:41 PM.


19

#50 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:42 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

Of course scoring average at reputable events and polo/jgs rankings is the number one factor.  Where we disagree is how one achieves that scoring average/ranking.  In my opinion and what Iíve been able to see throughout the high school procsss is that there is a general correlation between distance and scoring average.  Iím not talking about the 10% that are short and ranked top 100.  Iím sure thatís not what OP was asking as well - trying to fight to be in the top 10% of short hitters.  And when I say short - Iím not talking 240!  Iím talking 270-280 total driving distance.  I would consider that very average at the AJGA level, especially at the invitational level.

I have a top 100 player in every class all the way until 2023 and none are longer than 270-280 at sea level in FL.   And Iím taking kids who have played in and some also won some of the biggest junior events in the country.  One who is a college freshman who currently has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top college teams in the country.  


And again Kevin flies it 240ish, he hits it 265.  But you donít seem to actually want to read what anyone else writes as youíve been corrected on that already.

You donít coach a single male junior golfer that can hit it 300 total?

Can on occasion or averages 300?  Plenty can if every condition is perfect hit it 300 yes.  But none would say they average 300.  Almost all swing between 103-110 and fly he ball 250-270.  The 2023 only hits it about 240 yards.  By the time they graduate college they will all swing 110+.   Hitting it a legit 300 in FL at sea level is very long on overwhelming majority of courses.  

Now I do have a decent number who are in college who swing 117-125 mph, and I have plenty of pros who swing 118+.

Iím not talking average.  But I am talking 110+ swing speed on trackman.  I donít know why we keep creeping up the numbers.  A poster started this dispute by saying he thinks a 250 driver has a good shot at D1.  Then he followed up by saying thatís great with 80% GIR.  80%!  Then you added that you knew of a player that was a top amateur with 240 carry.  Now weíre at 270-280 average.  What are we talking about?!  My point was that distance matters.  That the ability to swing 115 mph or otherwise has the ideal setup to poke it 300 is very important in not only getting into a top D1, but playing on the traveling 5.   I know it does to Division I coaches.  Theyíve said it to me.  You are saying that distance has no bearing in recruitment efforts so long as the kid has shown the ability to score.  Thereís an entire thread about an OSU player that consistently qualifies but doesnít get to travel bc he is perceived as short.

And again I canít point out 50 other experience where players are short in stature and/or distance and the coach doesnít care and they are top players.  

240 carry is 265 average.  I prefer using carry yardages as itís not dependent on firmness of the fairways.   Youíre the one that said 270-280 is short.  


Iíll make it crystal clear for you.  You absolutely positively donít have to swing 115mph to play on a top D1 team.  You donít have to swing 115mph to be a great player on PGA tour.  Beau hossler swings just over 110mph.  He had no issues in college or in professional golf.  Spieth averaged 110-111mph his rookie year on the PGA Tour.  Was slower in college and junior golf.  Didnít hurt him.  

Phillip Knowles is one of the top college golfers in the country and hits it about 280.  Andrew Alligood who finished 2nd at US Am in stroke play and made it to quarterfinals is even shorter and also one of the top college golfers.  These arenít one or two stories.  Those two play on the same team.  I could post plenty more.  Length is a factor and an advantage but itís far from necessary


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#51 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:47 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 27 August 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Iteach is spot on what he talking about.

Here is the average distances on the pga and lpga tour from track man.This is for everyone not just the leaders. They average 275 yards which tells me some are obviously hitting it less and some more.  The lpga only hits it only 218.  

You have to remember that this is the best tour with the best players so the distances will for sure be less the lower you go.  Most people over estimate what there or there competitors are driving the ball. It is very easy to do.

https://blog.trackma...age-tour-stats/

That is carry something to note. You take 275 carry then thats a 300+. Same thing on the lpga 218 thats closer to the 250 mark.

I think people are getting carried away the original question is about D1 college.  I am pretty sure there not all hitting I t 300 yards just to be competitive.

Does it help to hit far yes I donít thing anyone disputes that. But if someone canít hit that far there are gains in other areas you can make and still be a scratch golfer.

Only a few players ever could hit far and have a short game. We could probably count them on one hand. The last one we saw was Tiger Woods in his prime. I donít think anyone on tour Today is as good as he was in his prime when it comes to the short game. He is not the same today and why he is not winning.

And therein lies our disagreement.  I donít think you grasp the current state of junior golf.  Kids are long with stellar short games.  I donít even know why we keep arguing about this.  Just watch the D1 championship - individual or team play.  Watch the junior am.  Go to an AJGA event.  Read threads about parents of collegiate golfers.  Weíre not tallking about just making the team are we?  Arenít we talking about be a playing D1 player?

If you donít think I have a grasp on junior golf than I donít know who does.  Iím ranked top 25 elite junior coach in the country (and have been for multiple years) and have players in every major AJGA invitational, US Jr (boys and girls), Jr PGA, etc.  One of my students won the Western Junior this year.  Iíve taught 4 NCAA National Champions and 10 All Americans.   Literally every junior Iíve taught the last 4 years, every single one, will play college golf on scholarship.  I understand whatís going on in junior golf.

21

#52 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:49 PM

You keep citing examples to refute a general statement.  And youíre not even refuting it.    Hereís a question.  How many of your players that are 270-280 or less total are actually playing at a top D1.  Not just on the team but playing.  Top 50 D1.  The OP was what it takes to play at a top D1 program.  Not just make the team.  But play.  And I find it funny that you keep defending this subject as many of the top teachers in this area that are well known in the country seem to agree with me through my conversations.  So now Iím supposed to believe that Iíve been misinfomed by top teachers and D1 coaches?

Edited by yellowlover519, 27 August 2018 - 06:53 PM.


22

#53 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:56 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

You keep citing examples to refute a general statement.  And youíre not even refuting it.    Hereís a question.  How many of your players that are 270-280 or less total are actually playing at a top D1.  Not just on the team but playing.  Top 50 D1.  The OP was what it takes to play at a top D1 program.  Not just make the team.  But play.  And I find it funny that you keep defending this subject as many of the top teachers in this area that are well known in the country seem to agree with me through my conversations.

Distance is an advantage. But again you donít NEED to hit it 300, 280 is far enough to be a top player.  And again i said my juniors from 2019-2023 hit it 240-280.  They obviously arenít in college yet.  But they have offers (except 2022 and 2023 who absolutely will have offers).

I already told you the one has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top teams in the country, events havenít started for 2018/2019 but he will definitely be playing and probably as number 2 in front of multiple seniors.   Currently have 12 that will start at top 50 programs this year, maybe more.  You donít win All American or a national title on the bench.

23

#54 tiger1873

tiger1873

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 947 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 340777
  • Joined: 09/20/2014
  • Location:United States
GolfWRX Likes : 456

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:59 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:35 PM, said:

View Postdarter79, on 27 August 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 27 August 2018 - 06:24 PM, said:

Iteach is spot on what he talking about.

Here is the average distances on the pga and lpga tour from track man.This is for everyone not just the leaders. They average 275 yards which tells me some are obviously hitting it less and some more.  The lpga only hits it only 218.  

You have to remember that this is the best tour with the best players so the distances will for sure be less the lower you go.  Most people over estimate what there or there competitors are driving the ball. It is very easy to do.

https://blog.trackma...age-tour-stats/

That is carry something to note. You take 275 carry then thats a 300+. Same thing on the lpga 218 thats closer to the 250 mark.

I think people are getting carried away the original question is about D1 college.  I am pretty sure there not all hitting I t 300 yards just to be competitive.

Does it help to hit far yes I donít thing anyone disputes that. But if someone canít hit that far there are gains in other areas you can make and still be a scratch golfer.

Only a few players ever could hit far and have a short game. We could probably count them on one hand. The last one we saw was Tiger Woods in his prime. I donít think anyone on tour Today is as good as he was in his prime when it comes to the short game. He is not the same today and why he is not winning.

And therein lies our disagreement.  I donít think you grasp the current state of junior golf.  Kids are long with stellar short games.  I donít even know why we keep arguing about this.  Just watch the D1 championship - individual or team play.  Watch the junior am.  Go to an AJGA event.  Read threads about parents of collegiate golfers.  Weíre not tallking about just making the team are we?  Arenít we talking about be a playing D1 player?

The hard truth is most people players short games are not that good today period. The short game was played a lot better 20-30 years ago because they had to.  Kids today think bombing and hitting it close to the tee is a good short game. If you look at putting statistics there not pretty past 6 feet.  

Back In the day Tiger would chip in shots to make birdie that you couldnít believe was possible. The same thing with Phil or Jack Nicolas or Alnold Palmer .  Go back even furth and you can talk about bobby Jones or bobby Locke.  

I wouldnít be surprised if we seen a ball or driver roll back in a few years since technology is making people think golf is all about driving.

24

#55 yellowlover519

yellowlover519

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 193 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89955
  • Joined: 07/28/2009
  • Ebay ID:yellowlover5
GolfWRX Likes : 100

Posted 27 August 2018 - 06:59 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

You keep citing examples to refute a general statement.  And youíre not even refuting it.    Hereís a question.  How many of your players that are 270-280 or less total are actually playing at a top D1.  Not just on the team but playing.  Top 50 D1.  The OP was what it takes to play at a top D1 program.  Not just make the team.  But play.  And I find it funny that you keep defending this subject as many of the top teachers in this area that are well known in the country seem to agree with me through my conversations.

Distance is an advantage. But again you donít NEED to hit it 300, 280 is far enough to be a top player.  And again i said my juniors from 2019-2023 hit it 240-280.  They obviously arenít in college yet.  But they have offers (except 2022 and 2023 who absolutely will have offers).

I already told you the one has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top teams in the country, events havenít started for 2018/2019 but he will definitely be playing and probably as number 2 in front of multiple seniors.   Currently have 12 that will start at top 50 programs this year, maybe more.  You donít win All American or a national title on the bench.

So I say 300 and you say 280 now.  Thatís a hellava lot different than 250 or 265.  And itís just not the 15 yards off the tee - itís the assumption throughout the bag.  But Iíll keep believing what Iíve heard directly from coaches and you keep proving me wrong.  I guess Iíll be the only one misinformed.


25

#56 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:03 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 27 August 2018 - 06:56 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 27 August 2018 - 06:49 PM, said:

You keep citing examples to refute a general statement.  And youíre not even refuting it.    Hereís a question.  How many of your players that are 270-280 or less total are actually playing at a top D1.  Not just on the team but playing.  Top 50 D1.  The OP was what it takes to play at a top D1 program.  Not just make the team.  But play.  And I find it funny that you keep defending this subject as many of the top teachers in this area that are well known in the country seem to agree with me through my conversations.

Distance is an advantage. But again you donít NEED to hit it 300, 280 is far enough to be a top player.  And again i said my juniors from 2019-2023 hit it 240-280.  They obviously arenít in college yet.  But they have offers (except 2022 and 2023 who absolutely will have offers).

I already told you the one has a big lead in qualifying on one of the top teams in the country, events havenít started for 2018/2019 but he will definitely be playing and probably as number 2 in front of multiple seniors.   Currently have 12 that will start at top 50 programs this year, maybe more.  You donít win All American or a national title on the bench.

So I say 300 and you say 280 now.  Thatís a hellava lot different than 250 or 265.  And itís just not the 15 yards off the tee - itís the assumption throughout the bag.  But Iíll keep believing what Iíve heard directly from coaches and you keep proving me wrong.  I guess Iíll be the only one misinformed.

Again youíre the one who set the goal post of 270-280 is short.  You can believe what you want. Facts are facts.  I can post launch monitor data to prove my side.  Coaches all say they want kids who are 6í2 and hit it 330.  But not a single coach in the country wouldnít love to have Phillip Knowles on his golf team.  And almost all would love to have Andrew Alligood too.

26

#57 tatertot

tatertot

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,035 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 87030
  • Joined: 06/29/2009
GolfWRX Likes : 3783

Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:06 PM

View PostTigerMom, on 26 August 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

Parents and coaches of top players:

How many hours do you estimate a kid would needed to have dedicated (before graduating high school) to a skill sport in order to be able to play at a top 100 college program?

There is no formula. You can't make anybody a college golfer just by making them practice a certain number of hours. Golf doesn't work like that.

One child can dedicate 60 hours a week with a top pro, and never make it. Another can go out and play golf and figure it out. But most will be somewhere in between.

Driver: Adams Speedline Fast 11, 9°
Fairway: Adams Fast 10, 15*
Irons: Ping i200 3 iron, Ping iE1 4-PW
Wedges: Titleist SM7, 48º; Titleist SM5, 54º & 58º
Putter: Cleveland Classics Huntington Beach #1, 35"

27

#58 MadGolfer76

MadGolfer76

    Admiration is the state furthest from understanding.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,147 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89700
  • Joined: 07/26/2009
  • Location:Maine
GolfWRX Likes : 10378

Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:08 PM

Why don't you guys just measure your drivers and call it a day?

;)
Mizuno ST-180 10.5/Mitsubishi Tensei Blue 60s
Mizuno JPX 900 15/Fujikura Speeder 661s
Mizuno Mp-54 3-Pw/Dynamic Gold s300
Mizuno T7 50, 54, 58/Dynamic Gold s300
Scotty Cameron Futura X7
Srixon Z-Star

WITB

28

#59 farmer

farmer

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,576 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 70095
  • Joined: 12/02/2008
GolfWRX Likes : 3391

Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:31 PM

TaterTot finally got back to the OT.  Is the Gladwell theory correct and relevant to getting into a top 100 program.  Teach, you've coached a lot of upper level kids, what are your thoughts?

29

#60 iteachgolf

iteachgolf

    Legend

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,379 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 14489
  • Joined: 04/30/2006
  • Location:Jacksonville, FL
GolfWRX Likes : 7649

Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:35 PM

View Postfarmer, on 27 August 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

TaterTot finally got back to the OT.  Is the Gladwell theory correct and relevant to getting into a top 100 program.  Teach, you've coached a lot of upper level kids, what are your thoughts?

I said earlier that Gladwell has admitted the 10,000 hours doesnít apply to sports.  And it depends on how one defines mastery.  Most PGA Tour players peak in their early to mid 30s.  So when in college many are well short of 10,000 hours but also are well short of their peak.  At least 30% of the kids Iíve taught whoíve played at a high level didnít touch a club until they were 12-14.  I think a fairly athletic kid whoís driven can become very very good in 4-5 years.  Well short of 10,000 hours.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors