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First Junior Tournament


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#31 yellowlover519

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 07:07 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 21 August 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

https://www.fsga.org...?boolQual=False

These are normal scores here.  The 9-10 age group played from significantly further than US Kids plays from.  These are 36 hole events and every kid broke 100 both rounds (boys and girls 9-10).  Second worst score for the boys was 82/86

In the northeast US Kids is the most competitive for 12 and under.  Most PGA sections do not start until age 12.  MET has a 7-11 but does not attract the most talented kids for the 10-year old age group.    Hurricane is a joke and has 3 competitors in that age group.  Re setup - I see 5000 yards on that Florida tour.  US Kids 10 is set up at 2500 for 9.  Can you describe how setups down south are much tougher?

Thatís the setup for 9-10 year olds, US Kids plays 4500ish for 9 year olds.  36 hole 2 day events are completely different animal than 9 hole events.

  In local PGA section junior tour 10 year olds play from 5,500-5,700.  Event below was from 5600 yards.  500-600 yards longer than US Kids sets up events at the same courses is the standard.

https://nfjgf.bluego...leaderboard.htm

But thatís 10-12.  I would hope with 12-year olds in the field the yardages would be closer to 6000.  In any event, are caddies allowed?  I think that makes the biggest difference in pga section events as opposed to US kids.  Kids need to learn how to play on their own by age 10.  And I think better juniors would welcome 36-hole events as opposed to 9-hole events.

Edited by yellowlover519, 21 August 2018 - 07:08 PM.


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#32 leezer99

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 07:14 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 21 August 2018 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 21 August 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

https://www.fsga.org...?boolQual=False

These are normal scores here.  The 9-10 age group played from significantly further than US Kids plays from.  These are 36 hole events and every kid broke 100 both rounds (boys and girls 9-10).  Second worst score for the boys was 82/86

In the northeast US Kids is the most competitive for 12 and under.  Most PGA sections do not start until age 12.  MET has a 7-11 but does not attract the most talented kids for the 10-year old age group. Hurricane is a joke and has 3 competitors in that age group.  Re setup - I see 5000 yards on that Florida tour.  US Kids 10 is set up at 2500 for 9.  Can you describe how setups down south are much tougher?

That's the setup for 9-10 year olds, US Kids plays 4500ish for 9 year olds.  36 hole 2 day events are completely different animal than 9 hole events.

  In local PGA section junior tour 10 year olds play from 5,500-5,700.  Event below was from 5600 yards.  500-600 yards longer than US Kids sets up events at the same courses is the standard.

https://nfjgf.bluego...leaderboard.htm

But that's 10-12.  I would hope with 12-year olds in the field the yardages would be closer to 6000.  In any event, are caddies allowed?  I think that makes the biggest difference in pga section events as opposed to US kids.  Kids need to learn how to play on their own by age 10.  And I think better juniors would welcome 36-hole events as opposed to 9-hole events.

FYI - the kid that won that event at 4 under is 10.

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#33 iteachgolf

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 07:16 PM

View Postyellowlover519, on 21 August 2018 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

View Postyellowlover519, on 21 August 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

https://www.fsga.org...?boolQual=False

These are normal scores here.  The 9-10 age group played from significantly further than US Kids plays from.  These are 36 hole events and every kid broke 100 both rounds (boys and girls 9-10).  Second worst score for the boys was 82/86

In the northeast US Kids is the most competitive for 12 and under.  Most PGA sections do not start until age 12.  MET has a 7-11 but does not attract the most talented kids for the 10-year old age group.    Hurricane is a joke and has 3 competitors in that age group.  Re setup - I see 5000 yards on that Florida tour.  US Kids 10 is set up at 2500 for 9.  Can you describe how setups down south are much tougher?

Thatís the setup for 9-10 year olds, US Kids plays 4500ish for 9 year olds.  36 hole 2 day events are completely different animal than 9 hole events.

  In local PGA section junior tour 10 year olds play from 5,500-5,700.  Event below was from 5600 yards.  500-600 yards longer than US Kids sets up events at the same courses is the standard.

https://nfjgf.bluego...leaderboard.htm

But thatís 10-12.  I would hope with 12-year olds in the field the yardages would be closer to 6000.  In any event, are caddies allowed?  I think that makes the biggest difference in pga section events as opposed to US kids.  Kids need to learn how to play on their own by age 10.  And I think better juniors would welcome 36-hole events as opposed to 9-hole events.

The whole point is that 10 year olds have to compete with 12 year olds.  And the moment they turn 13 they play from 6700.   No caddies are allowed.  The ability to shoot back to back 18 hole rounds under par at 10-11 years old is very different than playing 9 holes.  And again the point of posting was to show that the second worst player shot 82/86.

Everyone has to start somewhere and I believe everyone should enjoy golf regardless of ability. But I also think telling someone they are very good when they are well below average from a competitive golf standpoint will do nothing but hold them back.  Be positive but not to the point where itís not close to reality.

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#34 nix

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 09:21 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 03:31 PM, said:

View Postnix, on 21 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

View Postnix, on 21 August 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

The prep division had 13 competitors which is half the total of the 10/11 age groups combined from uskids. So the point remains the same. There aren't a ton of competitive golfers playing in our area, which skews the bell curve so there is some competition for a wider range of skill levels.

Doesn't skew the bell curve.  There would simply be more of every group of kid.  Your son is near the bottom score wise right now.  Even if there were 100s of kids, scores of 50 and higher from 4500 yards would be near the bottom for a 10 year old percentage wise.  Instead of dead last he might be 10th from last, but instead of 7th he'd be 123rd.  The curve would still be the same

Disagree 100%. But whatever.

Why don't you look at PGA Junior league? You'll see more volume.  

You can disagree all you want but I've been around junior golf for nearly 30 years.  There's a good number of 10 year olds shooting under par from 5,500 yards let alone 4,500 yards and could shoot 68 for 18 holes.   I don't think you have a grasp at how good very good is at 10 years old and how many great junior golfs there are our there

I don't think you grasp my point. I won't keep repeating myself though. Good day.

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#35 nix

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 09:26 PM

View Postiteachgolf, on 21 August 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 21 August 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

You have guys like Huebner and Dunham there which are household names in big time tournaments.  Hell Dunham is probably bigger than me and he's only 10.  That's just unfair.  lol

He's 5'3 135lbs

And my point was how good the bottom of the leaderboard is, not the top

That leaderboard has 13 players. THATS the point. There are over 1000 10u baseball players competing locally. THAT provides a true bell curve of talent. If you took the top 13 baseball players and took a well above avg kid he'd look like he was absolutely terrible at the game which is not true. The kids competing are generally the top of the top and there is no actual bell curve BECAUSE THERE ARENT ENOUGH PLAYERS and those that dip their toes lose by 30 strokes, suddenly feel like they're terrible and go do something else.


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#36 nix

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 09:30 PM

View Postleezer99, on 21 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 21 August 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

I agree with iTeach.  If you are shooting 50-60 you aren’t very good no matter how you spin it.  Goal is to work and get better.

nix, iteach won't say it but he's a very well regarded instructor with a lot of junior golf talent under his wing.  I tend to listen a bit more when he's giving you his two cents here on GolfWRX.
  THATS the issue. His view of junior golfers is skewed as he ONLY sees top elite 1% talent day in and day out.  Give me 1,000 local 10 year old golfers and the avg for 9 holes would be somewhere in the 80s.  Give me the top 5 and it's a different story. I don't know why I keep trying to explain this. Whatever.

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#37 leezer99

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 04:25 AM

View Postnix, on 21 August 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

When players are coming in last, but are in reality very good golfers it can hurt the confidence of a young player

All we are saying is that a 60+ score and a 50+ score does not equal a very good golfer.  What does your boy shoot on nine holes from 2,500 or so yards at your home course?  Mid to low 30's would be a very good golfer.

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#38 CTgolf

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 04:26 AM

This is a strange thread

First of all, I think it’s great that your son loves golf and you should definitely encourage him to pursue his passions and interests

However, re the part of the discussion concerning “average abilities”, I think you need to more clearly define who exactly qualifies as a junior golfer, just as you would a youth baseball player

Yes fewer kids play golf than baseball at almost every age level - but that is irrelevant when looking at average (or even median) abilities

To be on a team and practice/play organized youth league baseball is quite a commitment, and the equivalent to the world of junior golf is not simply any kid who has ever picked up a club or putted a ball

I think if you wanted to narrow down the requirement of what constitutes a participant in “junior golf”, equivalent to a participant in organized youth baseball, you should only include kids who play at least x times a year out on the course and practices y times a month (x and y are subjective and would vary depending on who you ask)

If you were to only include those participants in the universe of junior golf participants, I think you would find that the average for 9 holes would definitely NOT “be somewhere in the 80s”, but probably closer to low to mid 50s at worst


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#39 iteachgolf

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 05:44 AM

View Postnix, on 21 August 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 21 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 21 August 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

I agree with iTeach.  If you are shooting 50-60 you aren‚§ôt very good no matter how you spin it.  Goal is to work and get better.

nix, iteach won't say it but he's a very well regarded instructor with a lot of junior golf talent under his wing.  I tend to listen a bit more when he's giving you his two cents here on GolfWRX.
  THATS the issue. His view of junior golfers is skewed as he ONLY sees top elite 1% talent day in and day out.  Give me 1,000 local 10 year old golfers and the avg for 9 holes would be somewhere in the 80s.  Give me the top 5 and it's a different story. I don't know why I keep trying to explain this. Whatever.

No I see plenty of beginners.  I have two kids that never touched a club before 3 years ago who now shoot under par and will play college golf on scholarship. We had junior camps all summer where most of the kids had never played before.  

Your issue is you think youíre only seeing the elite in these events, youíre not.  There arenít 1000 ten year old golfers in your city. Thatís the point.  So throwing a kid in there who doesnít actually play golf would obviously skew the numbers higher. But thatís not a bell shaped curve of kids who actually golf, itís a curve of random 10 year olds.  If you expand your sample size and looked at every US Kids tour in the US you see score of 68 and 58 would be near the bottom percentage wise.  

You can lie to yourself and keep thinking and telling yourself how good your kid is or you can be realistic and work on him becoming very good.  But if he thinks is scores and skill level are ďvery goodĒ then he wonít feel the need to get better.

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#40 nix

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 07:52 AM

"There aren’t 1000 ten year old golfers in your city. That’s the point"

We agree. /end


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#41 yellowlover519

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 08:18 AM

Nix - your son is doing just fine.  Golf more than maybe any other sport is a race to 10,000 hours.  The only natural gift you need in golf is the ability to generate swing speed in excess of 110 mph and to be mentally strong.  You canít take a raw athelete and turn him into an elite athlete with half the hours like you can other sports.  All of these kids being labeled elite just has a multiple number of hours compared to your son.  Iíve seen too many golfers at the high school and AJGA level score and do well with flawed techniques just because theyíve put in the requisite hours to hone their impact and distance control.  Now if your son canít poke it 300 consistently by the time he is 15-16, I would say he would be at a disadvantage going to a top D1 school.  Keep him playing tourneys to learn the game/rules and different situations rather than worry about medals.

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#42 heavy_hitter

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 08:56 AM

I honestly don't understand what the OP is trying to justify.  I looked up the US Kids golf Summer Local in the KC area and none of those scores in the 9 year old division is elite.  I would call them average scores.  I think the OP doesn't have a grasp on what elite, good, or average is.  http://www.uskidsgolf.com/tournaments/local/find-local-tour/284882/kansas-city

I don't agree with anything Nix has posted.  I think he is delusional in his understanding of Junior golf and trying to come up with a scenario to justify the greatness of his kid.

Nix...  when my daughter started golf she was terrible.  First tournament she played in at 13 she shot 108 and 109.  The girl's she played with went on to play at Vanderbilt (shot low 80) and UGA (shot low 80).  She knew she was bad but loved the game.  She worked at it and put up her first round in the high 70's within 6 months.  There is nothing wrong with your kid being bad at something.  You shouldn't sugarcoat what it is.

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#43 BertGA

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 09:10 AM

View Postnix, on 22 August 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

"There aren’t 1000 ten year old golfers in your city. That’s the point"

We agree. /end

So out of all the experience and knowledge iteach posted, you take this one sentence and quote it as proof that you are right?

Again, I'm not sure really what you are looking for in this thread, other than someone to concur that your son, who entered his very first tournament, is indeed a very good golfer. Several other regular posters in this forum with much more experience have provided compelling evidence and arguments to suggest the score posted is, in fact, average. If you aren't willing to consider the advice of people here, then why are you here? You could have just stopped after the original post.

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#44 dpb5031

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 09:34 AM

OP, perspective from others will only help you on your journey with your son's golf.

I started my daughter at 10 YOA in our local county run 9 hole tourney. There were 3 events over the course of the summer with about 10  girls in the 9-12 division and it was not a very good representation of skill level that you see as soon as you jump up to larger events like US Kids Regionals (the locals tend to be weak fields and vary greatly from locale to locale.)

When she was 11 we dove in a bit more and realized once she got to Regionals that she had some serious catching-up to do.  We both wish she started sooner.  

She improved quickly though and by 14,15,16 was qualifying for national events like the Big I, US Girl's Junior, and US Women's Am. Fast forward to now and shes playing mid-level D1 on full scholarship. (Boy's golf is many times harder to play collegiately for a multitude of reasons)

Knowledge is your best friend here as navigating junior golf isn't easy. Being realistic in terms of understanding the quality of the competition is important if you expect your son to succeed.  He's young enough to improve quickly and dramatically, but you'll both have to have the drive, determination, commitment, time, and resources.

Edited by dpb5031, 22 August 2018 - 09:35 AM.

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#45 heavy_hitter

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 10:20 AM

View Postdpb5031, on 22 August 2018 - 09:34 AM, said:

and resources.

And a lot of it.


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#46 darter79

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 10:28 AM

View Postnix, on 21 August 2018 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postleezer99, on 21 August 2018 - 06:15 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 21 August 2018 - 06:05 PM, said:

I agree with iTeach.  If you are shooting 50-60 you aren’t very good no matter how you spin it.  Goal is to work and get better.

nix, iteach won't say it but he's a very well regarded instructor with a lot of junior golf talent under his wing.  I tend to listen a bit more when he's giving you his two cents here on GolfWRX.
  THATS the issue. His view of junior golfers is skewed as he ONLY sees top elite 1% talent day in and day out.  Give me 1,000 local 10 year old golfers and the avg for 9 holes would be somewhere in the 80s.  Give me the top 5 and it's a different story. I don't know why I keep trying to explain this. Whatever.

Averages in the 80s not even close.  My 6 daughter had been to the range about 6 times and took one intro lesson before i put her in a tournament for fun, she shot a 64. There was a 4 year old in our tour this spring and summer she averaged 70-80. I think your averages are a little off base. She now just turned 8 and I would just call her a little above average as she shoots high 30s to very low 40s.

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#47 kekoa

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 11:21 AM

Geeze,  just give the OP a break.  He and his son are just getting into US kids and Junior golf.  Does it make a difference at all to any of us if he thinks his son is good?  Nope.  As he gains more experience and plays more, he will eventually see where he stands and can decide to quit or work hard to get better.  

I'm lost on the whole bell curve thing though.

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#48 heavy_hitter

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 11:29 AM

View Postkekoa, on 22 August 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

Geeze,  just give the OP a break.  He and his son are just getting into US kids and Junior golf.  Does it make a difference at all to any of us if he thinks his son is good?  Nope.  As he gains more experience and plays more, he will eventually see where he stands and can decide to quit or work hard to get better.  

I'm lost on the whole bell curve thing though.

I think it is the point of him trying to argue with iTeach.  A lot of amateur hackers do not understand how good these junior golfers are.  The OP is a 20 capper so he very rarely has broken 90 if ever.  He probably has never been around good golfers.  An average 12 year old is going to beat him like a pulp.  It is all about perspective and the OP trying to justify that his kid is good.

Remember, he made the post and brought it up.

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#49 Belmont148

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 11:36 AM

"Elite" in our US Kids tour has shot multiple sub-par rounds at yardages for 9,10, and 11 yo boys. When they play in the other leagues, and multi-day events, they shoot over par and barely make top 10. Calling low 40's at US Kids only attracting the elite players is a bit of a stretch.
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#50 tiger1873

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 02:44 PM

US Kids locals vary a lot with the quality of players. In some places your going to need to be below par to even place in the top 5. I would think most kids will not have a problem scoring 50-70 the first time you go out a lot kids will score in the 40's very easy.  The biggest problem I see with US kids events is there too easy for kids to par the event.  

The distances are not that far and all a kid has to do is basically roll it down the fairway and up on the green. If they have a little direction and can putt there going to score very low.


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#51 nix

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:12 PM

I know so much less about my son than people on the internet who've never met him.

Edited by nix, 22 August 2018 - 03:20 PM.


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#52 leezer99

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:15 PM

View Postnix, on 22 August 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

I no longer wonder why the jump to conclusions mats are sold out online. Thanks!
So is the delusional dad juice.

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#53 kekoa

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:22 PM

View Posttiger1873, on 22 August 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:



The distances are not that far and all a kid has to do is basically roll it down the fairway and up on the green. If they have a little direction and can putt there going to score very low.

Man, if it was only that easy.

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#54 nix

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:23 PM

View Postkekoa, on 22 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 22 August 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

The distances are not that far and all a kid has to do is basically roll it down the fairway and up on the green. If they have a little direction and can putt there going to score very low.

Man, if it was only that easy.

i know a kid who plays who can drive the ball 150yds or so. But when it goes off-line it can end up in trouble or OOB. That extra distance is a disadvantage if not straight compared to the worm-burner shorter distance kids who keep it in play. I won't say who this kid is, but rest assured, he's terrible at golf.

Edited by nix, 22 August 2018 - 03:23 PM.


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#55 nix

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:24 PM

View Postleezer99, on 22 August 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

View Postnix, on 22 August 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

I no longer wonder why the jump to conclusions mats are sold out online. Thanks!
So is the delusional dad juice.

And the inability to read an actual post powder.


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#56 heavy_hitter

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:40 PM

View Postnix, on 22 August 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 22 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 22 August 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

The distances are not that far and all a kid has to do is basically roll it down the fairway and up on the green. If they have a little direction and can putt there going to score very low.

Man, if it was only that easy.

i know a kid who plays who can drive the ball 150yds or so. But when it goes off-line it can end up in trouble or OOB. That extra distance is a disadvantage if not straight compared to the worm-burner shorter distance kids who keep it in play. I won't say who this kid is, but rest assured, he's terrible at golf.

150 yards at 9/10 years old isn't very far.

Keeping it in play is part of the game.  If you are a golfer trying to hit the ball straight, I suggest trying to curve it.  Even the best players in the world have a difficult time hitting it straight, but it is easy to curve it.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 22 August 2018 - 03:43 PM.


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#57 Belmont148

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:54 PM

View Postnix, on 21 August 2018 - 11:52 AM, said:

My son is terrible.

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#58 kekoa

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 03:57 PM

View Postnix, on 22 August 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 22 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 22 August 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

The distances are not that far and all a kid has to do is basically roll it down the fairway and up on the green. If they have a little direction and can putt there going to score very low.

Man, if it was only that easy.

i know a kid who plays who can drive the ball 150yds or so. But when it goes off-line it can end up in trouble or OOB. That extra distance is a disadvantage if not straight compared to the worm-burner shorter distance kids who keep it in play. I won't say who this kid is, but rest assured, he's terrible at golf.

Regardless, I would still take the distance since it can be hard to come by for some kids.  I think 150 is average for an 8 yr old.  175 is avg. for a 9 year old and by 10 they should be sniffing it out there past 200.

OP, I used to talk about how good my kid was until he got his a** handed to him by this kid from Europe.  Now I just let his scores talk.

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#59 tiger1873

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 04:27 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 22 August 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

View Postnix, on 22 August 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

View Postkekoa, on 22 August 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 22 August 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

The distances are not that far and all a kid has to do is basically roll it down the fairway and up on the green. If they have a little direction and can putt there going to score very low.

Man, if it was only that easy.

i know a kid who plays who can drive the ball 150yds or so. But when it goes off-line it can end up in trouble or OOB. That extra distance is a disadvantage if not straight compared to the worm-burner shorter distance kids who keep it in play. I won't say who this kid is, but rest assured, he's terrible at golf.

150 yards at 9/10 years old isn't very far.

Keeping it in play is part of the game.  If you are a golfer trying to hit the ball straight, I suggest trying to curve it.  Even the best players in the world have a difficult time hitting it straight, but it is easy to curve it.

When I say roll it down the fairway it doesn't mean it's easy to par but at the same time it's the reason you don't see many high scores out there.  if there too short though and easy it takes away some advantage that kids who can really hit the ball have.  I haven't seen too many kids who can  consitantly sink every putt and chip within 3 feet on every hole.I however have seen plenty though that hit the green on 1 or 2 shots. Like heavy It's about keeping the ball in play. The winners at this age get in on the green and make keep the putts down to a minimum.

The reason the holes are short is to give all kids a chance to play.If you feel they are too short you have to play harder tournaments. Under 12 is the most frustrating part of being a parent of a junior golfer.  The best advice I got was let the kid develop and learn to love golf and play tournaments to gauge their progress and don't let any wins go to your head.

A kid who is 9 and hits the ball a mile but doesn't hit the fairway might actually be the better kid in a few years but needs to learn how keep the ball in play. Score isn't everything when there young. If they learn learn how to get out trouble not much will stop them.

Heavy is right you don't hit the ball strait.  I have found some instructors don't know this and are real problem. If you find one get rid of them as fast as you can there idiots.  Learning to curve the ball is dangerous as not everyone can control it but is a game changer.

Edited by tiger1873, 22 August 2018 - 04:36 PM.


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#60 darter79

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 06:09 PM

150 isn't long for a boy who is 9 or 10. Not even close. Where I live girls 7-8 drive it 130-150+.  One happens to live with me.  150 for a boy thats short, very short.


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