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Should each club in a set have a different shaft spine angle?

Flow spin shaft

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#1 FirePro

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 12:50 PM

I will start off by mentioning that I currently spine all my clubs and place it in the down position to prevent as much toe down as possible.

I am assuming when builders spine shafts they install the spine ether vertically or horizontally to the face angle,  I have been pondering this for some time now thinking of the variable of different people having different swing dynamics and deliver the club to the ball at different angles and path which yes the shaft will bend to the rear of the club head but will also produce a toe down effect.  Rather than have it ether vertical or horizontal to the face should we not be placing the spine on a slight angle to match each individuals swing dynamic?  I may be out to lunch on this thought so feel free to chime in but if I am right we would also have to have a different angle to place the spine for each club as the shafts get longer and the swing plane flattens out.  I may be going down the rabbit hole on this one but I think it would be a great discussion.

Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
Putter: Odyssey Havok

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#2 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 01:32 PM

Waaaaaaay overthinking it.

Place ‘em all the same way and be done with it.

Ive been building and repairing for 30 years and I don’t believe in it or bother with it, but... “each to his own”,  as they say.
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#3 Socrates

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
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Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
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Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
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#4 FirePro

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 12 August 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Waaaaaaay overthinking it.

Place ‘em all the same way and be done with it.

Ive been building and repairing for 30 years and I don’t believe in it or bother with it, but... “each to his own”,  as they say.
first time iv ever been accused of overthinking anything ha, but you would be correct, I do it for peace of mind now.  The reason for the post was to spark some conversation to see if anyone else "overthinks" like me :russian_roulette:

also wanted to see if I could make some people think about the whole process not just the build but bring the swing dynamic for each club into the mix like attack angle and and plane, now that I think about it head weight would also be brought into account.

again I get that im going overboard here but I was curious and this stuff interests me.

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
I have heard this but I do it for peace of mind.  I thought I would stir up some conversation as the physics of it all if fun for me

Edited by FirePro, 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM.

Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
Putter: Odyssey Havok

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#5 sui generis

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 08:34 PM

http://www.usga.org/...aq-25852.html#3

Q. Can I orient the shaft in the club any way I want to?

A. A player can place a shaft in any orientation to the clubhead provided the desired orientation is not for the purpose of influencing the club's performance (e.g., to attempt to correct for a hook or slice). Additionally, manufacturers of clubs may orientate or align shafts which have spines for uniformity in assembling sets or in an effort to make the shafts perform as if they were perfectly symmetrical (i.e., aligning in a neutral position). However, a shaft which has been manufactured and/or orientated for the purpose of influencing the performance of a club would be contrary to the intent of Rule 2b, Appendix II.

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

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#6 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 09:43 PM

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostJagpilotohio, on 12 August 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Waaaaaaay overthinking it.

Place ‘em all the same way and be done with it.

Ive been building and repairing for 30 years and I don’t believe in it or bother with it, but... “each to his own”,  as they say.
first time iv ever been accused of overthinking anything ha, but you would be correct, I do it for peace of mind now.  The reason for the post was to spark some conversation to see if anyone else "overthinks" like me :russian_roulette:

also wanted to see if I could make some people think about the whole process not just the build but bring the swing dynamic for each club into the mix like attack angle and and plane, now that I think about it head weight would also be brought into account.

again I get that im going overboard here but I was curious and this stuff interests me.

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
I have heard this but I do it for peace of mind.  I thought I would stir up some conversation as the physics of it all if fun for me
Purposely posting something just to stir the pot is called trolling.  You will be on my ignore list.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc
Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Scotty X7M Dual 38"
MCC Align Midsize

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#7 FirePro

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 09:51 PM

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostJagpilotohio, on 12 August 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Waaaaaaay overthinking it.

Place ‘em all the same way and be done with it.

Ive been building and repairing for 30 years and I don’t believe in it or bother with it, but... “each to his own”,  as they say.
first time iv ever been accused of overthinking anything ha, but you would be correct, I do it for peace of mind now.  The reason for the post was to spark some conversation to see if anyone else "overthinks" like me :russian_roulette:

also wanted to see if I could make some people think about the whole process not just the build but bring the swing dynamic for each club into the mix like attack angle and and plane, now that I think about it head weight would also be brought into account.

again I get that im going overboard here but I was curious and this stuff interests me.

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
I have heard this but I do it for peace of mind.  I thought I would stir up some conversation as the physics of it all if fun for me
Purposely posting something just to stir the pot is called trolling.  You will be on my ignore list.
I think its a valid question how is that trolling?  I want to engage in a conversation that I have a question about and am interested in.  But by all means ignore me, no sweat off my srixons

Edited by FirePro, 12 August 2018 - 09:52 PM.

Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
Putter: Odyssey Havok

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#8 FirePro

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Posted 12 August 2018 - 10:05 PM

View Postsui generis, on 12 August 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

http://www.usga.org/...aq-25852.html#3

Q. Can I orient the shaft in the club any way I want to?

A. A player can place a shaft in any orientation to the clubhead provided the desired orientation is not for the purpose of influencing the club's performance (e.g., to attempt to correct for a hook or slice). Additionally, manufacturers of clubs may orientate or align shafts which have spines for uniformity in assembling sets or in an effort to make the shafts perform as if they were perfectly symmetrical (i.e., aligning in a neutral position). However, a shaft which has been manufactured and/or orientated for the purpose of influencing the performance of a club would be contrary to the intent of Rule 2b, Appendix II.

View Postsui generis, on 12 August 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

http://www.usga.org/...aq-25852.html#3

Q. Can I orient the shaft in the club any way I want to?

A. A player can place a shaft in any orientation to the clubhead provided the desired orientation is not for the purpose of influencing the club's performance (e.g., to attempt to correct for a hook or slice). Additionally, manufacturers of clubs may orientate or align shafts which have spines for uniformity in assembling sets or in an effort to make the shafts perform as if they were perfectly symmetrical (i.e., aligning in a neutral position). However, a shaft which has been manufactured and/or orientated for the purpose of influencing the performance of a club would be contrary to the intent of Rule 2b, Appendix II.
This is an interesting quote.  I love codes or rules books as they can be a little grey at times and can be interpreted differently by different people.  would orientating the shaft at different  angles to the face not be trying to make the shaft perform as if they were perfectly symmetrical?  also it mentions that manufactures of clubs may orientate or align shafts, does this include club builders or can only manufactures such as Titleist do this?
Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
Putter: Odyssey Havok

8

#9 Stuart G.

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 03:38 AM

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
I have heard this but I do it for peace of mind.  I thought I would stir up some conversation as the physics of it all if fun for me

Just to clarify a bit.  "spine-ing" can refer to any process used to try and find a shaft spine.   The use of FLO and frequency measurements to distinguish Spine from NBP is one of the ways that has been found to be effective at that.   Bearing based "spine finders" have been shown to have a high potential for error and inaccuracies.  So if that's what you're using, your peace of mind is misplaced and if you want that piece of mind, you should invest in the proper equipment (or pay to have the shafts SST purred).

As for the physics of spine orientation - have fun if you want but lots of theories exist but have neither any solid theoretical basis nor any proper (and published) validation for any of them - so I wouldn't hold out that yet another discussion to provide any new revelations.

If you want less toe down bend at impact (shaft droop), pick a stiffer shaft to play :-)

Edited by Stuart G., 13 August 2018 - 09:15 AM.


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#10 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 09:11 AM

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:


View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
I have heard this but I do it for peace of mind.  I thought I would stir up some conversation as the physics of it all if fun for me
Purposely posting something just to stir the pot is called trolling.  You will be on my ignore list.
I think its a valid question how is that trolling?  I want to engage in a conversation that I have a question about and am interested in.  But by all means ignore me, no sweat off my srixons
So maybe I was a little pissy, but sometimes I get a little that way when I feel guys are just saying things to stir the pot.  If you that's not the case, my apologies for misreading your intentions.

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc
Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Scotty X7M Dual 38"
MCC Align Midsize

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#11 Socrates

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    How can it be so *&#% hard to make a shoulder turn?

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 09:21 AM

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 10:05 PM, said:

View Postsui generis, on 12 August 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

http://www.usga.org/...aq-25852.html#3

Q. Can I orient the shaft in the club any way I want to?

A. A player can place a shaft in any orientation to the clubhead provided the desired orientation is not for the purpose of influencing the club's performance (e.g., to attempt to correct for a hook or slice). Additionally, manufacturers of clubs may orientate or align shafts which have spines for uniformity in assembling sets or in an effort to make the shafts perform as if they were perfectly symmetrical (i.e., aligning in a neutral position). However, a shaft which has been manufactured and/or orientated for the purpose of influencing the performance of a club would be contrary to the intent of Rule 2b, Appendix II.
This is an interesting quote.  I love codes or rules books as they can be a little grey at times and can be interpreted differently by different people.  would orientating the shaft at different  angles to the face not be trying to make the shaft perform as if they were perfectly symmetrical?  also it mentions that manufactures of clubs may orientate or align shafts, does this include club builders or can only manufactures such as Titleist do this?
Includes everyone.
Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"
Jazz Bear Cat 3 wd Aerotech Stiff
Ping i20 3 Hyb 707H Stiff
X2 Hot 4_-PW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc
Ping ES 56º and ES 60º
Scotty X7M Dual 38"
MCC Align Midsize

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#12 FirePro

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 10:10 AM

View PostSocrates, on 13 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 09:51 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

View PostFirePro, on 12 August 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

View PostSocrates, on 12 August 2018 - 01:45 PM, said:

If you are talking about flo-ing them, then you set each shaft as it needs to be to achieve a horizontal pattern.  If you are talking about spine-ing, you can sift through the various threads yourself, but that practice has been proven to be worthless.
I have heard this but I do it for peace of mind.  I thought I would stir up some conversation as the physics of it all if fun for me
Purposely posting something just to stir the pot is called trolling.  You will be on my ignore list.
I think its a valid question how is that trolling?  I want to engage in a conversation that I have a question about and am interested in.  But by all means ignore me, no sweat off my srixons
So maybe I was a little pissy, but sometimes I get a little that way when I feel guys are just saying things to stir the pot.  If you that's not the case, my apologies for misreading your intentions.
I get where your coming from, but this was a question I am interested in, I don't have a bios ether way I just think its an interesting concept thats been spinning around my head for some time.
Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
Putter: Odyssey Havok

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#13 DallasSteve

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 01:40 PM

I have pondered your very question.  Since the shaft flexes in more than one direction during the swing (meaning that the direction of the bend changes during the swing), and probably NEVER in a straight back or a just-toe-down direction, how would one place the NBP for a given shaft?  Won't the 3 iron shaft bend in a slightly different direction than the PW?  Too complex for me to figure it out, so I stopped trying to orient my shafts, and now just stick them in so they look purty (logo down in most cases).

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#14 JCAG

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 04:41 PM

I believe the USGA basically says a spine can be found but should be placed in a neutral position (not really defined) which says all spines must be placed the same way which means not varied within a set.

There have been discussions about finding the spine and positioning it to favor say a draw, fade, etc. but there is no proof (only speculation) on this and it would be nonconforming.

Myself, I say go SST or FLO but forget the ball bearing devices. My wood shafts are SST Pured. My hybrids and irons are FLOed and at best, it makes them more repeatable.

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#15 FirePro

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Posted 13 August 2018 - 06:09 PM

View PostDallasSteve, on 13 August 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

I have pondered your very question.  Since the shaft flexes in more than one direction during the swing (meaning that the direction of the bend changes during the swing), and probably NEVER in a straight back or a just-toe-down direction, how would one place the NBP for a given shaft?  Won't the 3 iron shaft bend in a slightly different direction than the PW?  Too complex for me to figure it out, so I stopped trying to orient my shafts, and now just stick them in so they look purty (logo down in most cases).
to complex yes but fun to think about.... at least for me.I am no physics major but I understand the golf swing.  I wish I could go back and get into this sort of thing as a job.  If you really wanted to go down the rabbit whole even bending the clubs upright or flat would effect the outcome slightly, probably not enough to feel any difference but ya .

Cobra FlyZ+ @ 8.5 deg w/Grafalloy (White) Blue X-Stiff tipped 3/4" @ 44.75"
Taylormade 2017 M1 set to 13 deg w/ RBZ TP Aldila RIP Alpha 70X Tipped 1" @ 42.5"
Titleist 909 F2 (18.5deg) UST AxivCore Tour Green 95X Tipped 1.5" @ 41.5"
Srixon Z U45 4 & 2 w/ Aldila RIP Alpha 105 X Hybrid shaft (4 @ 38.5", 2 @ 39.5")
Srixon Z745 (5-PW) w/ KBS $-Taper X 130 Black
Hand Crafted wedges from Kyoei Raw Forged Blanks
52deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
56deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X PW Shaft
60deg w/ KBS $-Taper 130X 8i Shaft
Putter: Odyssey Havok

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