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Early recruiting leading to early specialization - what to do?


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#1 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 07:30 AM

I've now heard multiple stories of local top-ranked juniors who are being told it is "too late" because the college golf coach (for "desirable" schools) already filled slots for class of 2019 grads 2-3 years ago.

Article below appears to corroborate.

It seems like this trend will force junior golfers and their parents to want to specialize earlier than would be ideal.

Anecdotally, I asked everyone we played with at world championships if they played other sports - almost 100% said "no", too busy and no time after school and golf, much less if they have siblings that parents need to attend to.




https://www.forbes.c...s/#7064c0cf4cc6

In only three Division I men's sports -- basketball (34 percent), lacrosse (30 percent) and golf (20 percent) -- did more than 20 percent of athletes report having first direct or indirect contact with a college recruiter in freshman year of high school or earlier.

But that 20 percent threshold was passed by female athletes in eight sports at the highest level of college athletes -- including nearly half of basketball players (47 percent). The other seven sports:
  • Softball, 43 percent
  • Gymnastics, 39 percent
  • Lacrosse, 37 percent
  • Soccer, 37 percent
  • Volleyball, 37 percent
  • Field hockey, 26 percent
  • Golf, 20 percent


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#2 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:46 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

I've now heard multiple stories of local top-ranked juniors who are being told it is "too late" because the college golf coach (for "desirable" schools) already filled slots for class of 2019 grads 2-3 years ago.

Article below appears to corroborate.

It seems like this trend will force junior golfers and their parents to want to specialize earlier than would be ideal.

Anecdotally, I asked everyone we played with at world championships if they played other sports - almost 100% said "no", too busy and no time after school and golf, much less if they have siblings that parents need to attend to.




https://www.forbes.c...s/#7064c0cf4cc6

In only three Division I men's sports -- basketball (34 percent), lacrosse (30 percent) and golf (20 percent) -- did more than 20 percent of athletes report having first direct or indirect contact with a college recruiter in freshman year of high school or earlier.
But that 20 percent threshold was passed by female athletes in eight sports at the highest level of college athletes -- including nearly half of basketball players (47 percent). The other seven sports:
  • Softball, 43 percent
  • Gymnastics, 39 percent
  • Lacrosse, 37 percent
  • Soccer, 37 percent
  • Volleyball, 37 percent
  • Field hockey, 26 percent
  • Golf, 20 percent


92% of the parents you talked to at the World Championships will not have kids that play college golf.  You may be in that 92%.  Only 8% of the kids playing high school golf will make to the collegiate level.  That is fact.  

Best thing a young athlete can do is stay an athlete, not a golfer.

Sports should not define a kid.  Specializing in a sport you are limiting them not only athletically, but you are defining who they are.  Kids should be kids and do what they do because they want to do them.  Parents make the decision for them to specialize.  That is a recipe for burnout.

Your kid is going to make to college because he is good, not because he has another lesson or specializes in a sport.  My kid will play golf in college if he wants to.  He is going to college regardless.  He works every night on academics to try to become a national merit scholar.

The new college rules on contact with young athletes is going to curtail how kids are recruited.  The NCAA changed the rules because too many kids were being offered too early.  Universities would take a commitment from a kid when they were 14 or 15 years old.  If the kid didn't pan out the University would back off and take back the offer.  I know two kids this happened to in golf.

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#3 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

I've now heard multiple stories of local top-ranked juniors who are being told it is "too late" because the college golf coach (for "desirable" schools) already filled slots for class of 2019 grads 2-3 years ago.

Article below appears to corroborate.

It seems like this trend will force junior golfers and their parents to want to specialize earlier than would be ideal.

Anecdotally, I asked everyone we played with at world championships if they played other sports - almost 100% said "no", too busy and no time after school and golf, much less if they have siblings that parents need to attend to.




https://www.forbes.c...s/#7064c0cf4cc6

In only three Division I men's sports -- basketball (34 percent), lacrosse (30 percent) and golf (20 percent) -- did more than 20 percent of athletes report having first direct or indirect contact with a college recruiter in freshman year of high school or earlier.
But that 20 percent threshold was passed by female athletes in eight sports at the highest level of college athletes -- including nearly half of basketball players (47 percent). The other seven sports:
  • Softball, 43 percent
  • Gymnastics, 39 percent
  • Lacrosse, 37 percent
  • Soccer, 37 percent
  • Volleyball, 37 percent
  • Field hockey, 26 percent
  • Golf, 20 percent


92% of the parents you talked to at the World Championships will not have kids that play college golf.  You may be in that 92%.  Only 8% of the kids playing high school golf will make to the collegiate level.  That is fact.  

Best thing a young athlete can do is stay an athlete, not a golfer.

Sports should not define a kid.  Specializing in a sport you are limiting them not only athletically, but you are defining who they are.  Kids should be kids and do what they do because they want to do them.  Parents make the decision for them to specialize.  That is a recipe for burnout.

Your kid is going to make to college because he is good, not because he has another lesson or specializes in a sport.  My kid will play golf in college if he wants to.  He is going to college regardless.  He works every night on academics to try to become a national merit scholar.

The new college rules on contact with young athletes is going to curtail how kids are recruited.  The NCAA changed the rules because too many kids were being offered too early.  Universities would take a commitment from a kid when they were 14 or 15 years old.  If the kid didn't pan out the University would back off and take back the offer.  I know two kids this happened to in golf.

You make some valid points

However if the school a kid wants to play for (and they may only know *after* it's too late where or even *if* they want to play in college) is making a decision on kids at 14-15yo, it's hard to not do everything possible to play at a high level when the junior is 13 or 14 in order to keep options open

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

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#4 tiger1873

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 08:57 AM

This has always been the case. If college scholarship is your goal you need to reach out when there in middle school.  I was told this by multiple college coaches this a good approach. They can't talk to you but they are watching.  Most schools have camps in the summer. Ask about them and build a short list of schools that make sense.  This way you can meet the coach and sort of learn more about their program and they will give you advice.  

If you want a top ranked school your going to have to compete with everyone.  The other side of the equation is if you good enough to be in a top ranked school is it worth your time to even attend?  In a lot cases coaches get burned too by the same kids they hold out for since those kids turn pro and drop the school or just plain become homesick.  So many times spots open up and they don't have the time to recruit much for the position.

I been told it's a lot looking for a job so at the end of the day it's the kids who need to be contacting the Coaches and impress them and actually want to go there.   As a parent you just have to be supportive.

Edited by tiger1873, 06 August 2018 - 12:08 PM.


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#5 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:19 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

I've now heard multiple stories of local top-ranked juniors who are being told it is "too late" because the college golf coach (for "desirable" schools) already filled slots for class of 2019 grads 2-3 years ago.

Article below appears to corroborate.

It seems like this trend will force junior golfers and their parents to want to specialize earlier than would be ideal.

Anecdotally, I asked everyone we played with at world championships if they played other sports - almost 100% said "no", too busy and no time after school and golf, much less if they have siblings that parents need to attend to.




https://www.forbes.c...s/#7064c0cf4cc6

In only three Division I men's sports -- basketball (34 percent), lacrosse (30 percent) and golf (20 percent) -- did more than 20 percent of athletes report having first direct or indirect contact with a college recruiter in freshman year of high school or earlier.
But that 20 percent threshold was passed by female athletes in eight sports at the highest level of college athletes -- including nearly half of basketball players (47 percent). The other seven sports:
  • Softball, 43 percent
  • Gymnastics, 39 percent
  • Lacrosse, 37 percent
  • Soccer, 37 percent
  • Volleyball, 37 percent
  • Field hockey, 26 percent
  • Golf, 20 percent


92% of the parents you talked to at the World Championships will not have kids that play college golf.  You may be in that 92%.  Only 8% of the kids playing high school golf will make to the collegiate level.  That is fact.  

Best thing a young athlete can do is stay an athlete, not a golfer.

Sports should not define a kid.  Specializing in a sport you are limiting them not only athletically, but you are defining who they are.  Kids should be kids and do what they do because they want to do them.  Parents make the decision for them to specialize.  That is a recipe for burnout.

Your kid is going to make to college because he is good, not because he has another lesson or specializes in a sport.  My kid will play golf in college if he wants to.  He is going to college regardless.  He works every night on academics to try to become a national merit scholar.

The new college rules on contact with young athletes is going to curtail how kids are recruited.  The NCAA changed the rules because too many kids were being offered too early.  Universities would take a commitment from a kid when they were 14 or 15 years old.  If the kid didn't pan out the University would back off and take back the offer.  I know two kids this happened to in golf.

You make some valid points

However if the school a kid wants to play for (and they may only know *after* it's too late where or even *if* they want to play in college) is making a decision on kids at 14-15yo, it's hard to not do everything possible to play at a high level when the junior is 13 or 14 in order to keep options open

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)


Most of the coaches aren't going to decide on a kid until after the age of 15.  Alabama, Okie St., Texas,  and others at the top of the collegiate level have their choices of the best of the best in the country.  If they aren't the best of the best they are going some where that doesn't have as many resources to recruit the top kids.  The fact of the matter is that only the top programs in big conferences are getting those early commits.  The rest of the programs in the country are not.

The other thing you have to look at is how much money each school actually has.  D1 boys is 4.5 scholarships for 10-12 kids.  D2 boys is 3.6 for 10-12 kids and the most they can give for athletics is 50%.  DIII is no money for athletics.  NAIA is 5 and NJCAA is 8.  If you want to go to college to play golf the easiest way is to do it with an athletic scholarship.  D1 boy's might have 6 kids on scholarship with the rest of the kids having academic money or just paying their own way.

I know a kid that plays on Yales Golf team.  Academically, the kid was off the charts.  His parents pay $63,000 a year for him to go to school there.  I also know a girl who signed to play basketball at Yale.  She was Female player of the year in Florida with offers to go to many D1 schools for free.  They pay $63,000 a year to go to Yale.

The stories you hear from parents about college are primarily false.  I  was involved with the process and heard the same stuff you hear.  Most of the parents are wrong in what they are telling you.  Four boys on this list that are not at least Juniors this year.  The 2023 is 6'7" tall as a 13 year old.

https://golfweek.com...ommitment-list/

Getting a letter or a flyer from a school is not being recruited.


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#6 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:37 AM

View Posttiger1873, on 06 August 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

This has always been the case. If college scholarship is your goal you need to reach out when there in middle school.  I was told this by multiple college coaches this a good approach. They can't talk to you but they are watching.  Most schools have camps in the summer. Ask about them and build a short list of schools that make sense.  This way you can meet the coach and sort of learn more about their program and give advice.  

If you want a top ranked school your going to have to compete with everyone.  The other side of the equation is if you good enough to be in a top ranked school is it worth your time to even attend?  In a lot cases coaches get burned too by the same kids they hold out for since those kids turn pro and drop the school or just plain become homesick.  So many times spots open up and they don't have the time to recruit much for the position.

I been told it's a lot looking for a job so at the end of the day it's the kids who need to be contacting the Coaches and impress them and actually want to go there.   As a parent you just have to be supportive.


I spoke to a very successful D1 boys coach in the spring and his recommendation for young kids was to pick 3 big tournaments a year to gear up for. That way they have something to look forward to and you aren't burning them out. There will be plenty of time for big tournaments when they hit 14 and start heavy on the AJGA stuff. He also recommended having the kids start going to the college's summer camps like you mentioned. This does two things: they get to meet the kid in person and get a feel for their game and what they are like. Second it allows the kids to see the campus and find out what coaching staff's the kids bond with. He suggested having the kids try a different camp each year. Having the kids write the prospective college coaches isn't a bad idea and you can even email them with your swing videos. Some even set up a youtube page and put swing videos on there that the coaches can access. They will start monitoring the kids as they go through the junior ranks.

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#7 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:45 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:19 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 08:46 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

I've now heard multiple stories of local top-ranked juniors who are being told it is "too late" because the college golf coach (for "desirable" schools) already filled slots for class of 2019 grads 2-3 years ago.

Article below appears to corroborate.

It seems like this trend will force junior golfers and their parents to want to specialize earlier than would be ideal.

Anecdotally, I asked everyone we played with at world championships if they played other sports - almost 100% said "no", too busy and no time after school and golf, much less if they have siblings that parents need to attend to.




https://www.forbes.c...s/#7064c0cf4cc6

In only three Division I men's sports -- basketball (34 percent), lacrosse (30 percent) and golf (20 percent) -- did more than 20 percent of athletes report having first direct or indirect contact with a college recruiter in freshman year of high school or earlier.
But that 20 percent threshold was passed by female athletes in eight sports at the highest level of college athletes -- including nearly half of basketball players (47 percent). The other seven sports:
  • Softball, 43 percent
  • Gymnastics, 39 percent
  • Lacrosse, 37 percent
  • Soccer, 37 percent
  • Volleyball, 37 percent
  • Field hockey, 26 percent
  • Golf, 20 percent


92% of the parents you talked to at the World Championships will not have kids that play college golf.  You may be in that 92%.  Only 8% of the kids playing high school golf will make to the collegiate level.  That is fact.  

Best thing a young athlete can do is stay an athlete, not a golfer.

Sports should not define a kid.  Specializing in a sport you are limiting them not only athletically, but you are defining who they are.  Kids should be kids and do what they do because they want to do them.  Parents make the decision for them to specialize.  That is a recipe for burnout.

Your kid is going to make to college because he is good, not because he has another lesson or specializes in a sport.  My kid will play golf in college if he wants to.  He is going to college regardless.  He works every night on academics to try to become a national merit scholar.

The new college rules on contact with young athletes is going to curtail how kids are recruited.  The NCAA changed the rules because too many kids were being offered too early.  Universities would take a commitment from a kid when they were 14 or 15 years old.  If the kid didn't pan out the University would back off and take back the offer.  I know two kids this happened to in golf.

You make some valid points

However if the school a kid wants to play for (and they may only know *after* it's too late where or even *if* they want to play in college) is making a decision on kids at 14-15yo, it's hard to not do everything possible to play at a high level when the junior is 13 or 14 in order to keep options open

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)


Most of the coaches aren't going to decide on a kid until after the age of 15.  Alabama, Okie St., Texas,  and others at the top of the collegiate level have their choices of the best of the best in the country.  If they aren't the best of the best they are going some where that doesn't have as many resources to recruit the top kids.  The fact of the matter is that only the top programs in big conferences are getting those early commits.  The rest of the programs in the country are not.

The other thing you have to look at is how much money each school actually has.  D1 boys is 4.5 scholarships for 10-12 kids.  D2 boys is 3.6 for 10-12 kids and the most they can give for athletics is 50%.  DIII is no money for athletics.  NAIA is 5 and NJCAA is 8.  If you want to go to college to play golf the easiest way is to do it with an athletic scholarship.  D1 boy's might have 6 kids on scholarship with the rest of the kids having academic money or just paying their own way.

I know a kid that plays on Yales Golf team.  Academically, the kid was off the charts.  His parents pay $63,000 a year for him to go to school there.  I also know a girl who signed to play basketball at Yale.  She was Female player of the year in Florida with offers to go to many D1 schools for free.  They pay $63,000 a year to go to Yale.

The stories you hear from parents about college are primarily false.  I  was involved with the process and heard the same stuff you hear.  Most of the parents are wrong in what they are telling you.  Four boys on this list that are not at least Juniors this year.  The 2023 is 6'7" tall as a 13 year old.

https://golfweek.com...ommitment-list/

Getting a letter or a flyer from a school is not being recruited.

I'm sure all of the points you make in your most recent post are factually correct, but it doesn't necessarily speak to the topic of the initial post

The more desirable programs (not necessarily highest in terms of collegiate golf rankings) are locking up kids earlier and earlier; this includes strong academic schools, which might have mediocre D1 golf programs.

And yes, most families who can afford it will have to pay full freight at the desirable schools unless they are exceptionally talented

While the rules for when students can make official visits has changed, the reality is coaches can and will continue to have early contact with potential recruits, and many have made decisions in their own mind before the junior year of any specific high school class.

I do wonder whether this trend will cause more and more kids to be held back ("redshirted") early on, like in Kindergarten.  There is one notable example of a rising senior (class of 2019) locally who repeated a year in high school specifically to increase his chances of playing D1 golf.  That decision seems to have paid off as his recent performances (including an AJGA win) have caused his stock to skyrocket, as he went from barely top 800 on JGS to top 150 and is now getting looks from programs who wouldn't even consider him this time last year.

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#8 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:


Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

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#9 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 06 August 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

This has always been the case. If college scholarship is your goal you need to reach out when there in middle school.  I was told this by multiple college coaches this a good approach. They can't talk to you but they are watching.  Most schools have camps in the summer. Ask about them and build a short list of schools that make sense.  This way you can meet the coach and sort of learn more about their program and give advice.  

If you want a top ranked school your going to have to compete with everyone.  The other side of the equation is if you good enough to be in a top ranked school is it worth your time to even attend?  In a lot cases coaches get burned too by the same kids they hold out for since those kids turn pro and drop the school or just plain become homesick.  So many times spots open up and they don't have the time to recruit much for the position.

I been told it's a lot looking for a job so at the end of the day it's the kids who need to be contacting the Coaches and impress them and actually want to go there.   As a parent you just have to be supportive.


I spoke to a very successful D1 boys coach in the spring and his recommendation for young kids was to pick 3 big tournaments a year to gear up for. That way they have something to look forward to and you aren't burning them out. There will be plenty of time for big tournaments when they hit 14 and start heavy on the AJGA stuff. He also recommended having the kids start going to the college's summer camps like you mentioned. This does two things: they get to meet the kid in person and get a feel for their game and what they are like. Second it allows the kids to see the campus and find out what coaching staff's the kids bond with. He suggested having the kids try a different camp each year. Having the kids write the prospective college coaches isn't a bad idea and you can even email them with your swing videos. Some even set up a youtube page and put swing videos on there that the coaches can access. They will start monitoring the kids as they go through the junior ranks.

What age should the kids ideally start attending these college summer camps?

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#10 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 10:34 AM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

Of the top 25 kids from the US in the 2010 Pinehurst World Championships for 11yo, 19 of them (76%) are playing in college in America (almost all for D1)

I would guess the % is closer to 50% for the entire field (I don't have time to look up every name), if you count kids who are trying to make it professionally or playing in college or on mini tours internationally

Edited by CTgolf, 06 August 2018 - 10:39 AM.


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#11 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 10:51 AM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 06 August 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

This has always been the case. If college scholarship is your goal you need to reach out when there in middle school.  I was told this by multiple college coaches this a good approach. They can't talk to you but they are watching.  Most schools have camps in the summer. Ask about them and build a short list of schools that make sense.  This way you can meet the coach and sort of learn more about their program and give advice.  

If you want a top ranked school your going to have to compete with everyone.  The other side of the equation is if you good enough to be in a top ranked school is it worth your time to even attend?  In a lot cases coaches get burned too by the same kids they hold out for since those kids turn pro and drop the school or just plain become homesick.  So many times spots open up and they don't have the time to recruit much for the position.

I been told it's a lot looking for a job so at the end of the day it's the kids who need to be contacting the Coaches and impress them and actually want to go there.   As a parent you just have to be supportive.


I spoke to a very successful D1 boys coach in the spring and his recommendation for young kids was to pick 3 big tournaments a year to gear up for. That way they have something to look forward to and you aren't burning them out. There will be plenty of time for big tournaments when they hit 14 and start heavy on the AJGA stuff. He also recommended having the kids start going to the college's summer camps like you mentioned. This does two things: they get to meet the kid in person and get a feel for their game and what they are like. Second it allows the kids to see the campus and find out what coaching staff's the kids bond with. He suggested having the kids try a different camp each year. Having the kids write the prospective college coaches isn't a bad idea and you can even email them with your swing videos. Some even set up a youtube page and put swing videos on there that the coaches can access. They will start monitoring the kids as they go through the junior ranks.

What age should the kids ideally start attending these college summer camps?

One of my buddies has a son who is a very good player in the 11 year old age group and he sent him to the Clemson camp this summer. His son loved it and wants to go back again. I'm sure my buddy will send him to a different camp next year just so he can see a different campus and coaching staff. Some of the camps have age based criteria but I would say around 11 or 12 you can start sending them. Most of the colleges run their camps the same way and the price is roughly the same as well. Also a good time for you to talk to the coaches and get all your questions answered as well.

11

#12 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:08 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

Of the top 25 kids from the US in the 2010 Pinehurst World Championships for 11yo, 19 of them (76%) are playing in college in America (almost all for D1)

I would guess the % is closer to 50% for the entire field (I don't have time to look up every name), if you count kids who are trying to make it professionally or playing in college or on mini tours internationally

Color me being amazed.  I am actually wrong and couldn't be more ecstatic about it.  I think it is a wonderful thing.  I didn't have time on my hand, but made time for a little research.  Took me about 1 hour and a half.

2010 12 Year Old Boy's Division at US Kids World Championships
113 out of the 149 Participants went on to play collegiate golf.  A little skewed because 2 of the foreign players are on the Euro tour.  Didn't count them for playing collegiality.  That is a staggering 76% of the kids playing.  

I broke it down into groups as well.
Top 25 18/26 kids 69%  This probably amazed me the most because the top 25 had the worst percentage of kids playing at the college level.
27-50   21/24 kids 88%  kids in this group playing major college D1 golf
51-75 18-25 kids 72%  several kids in this group still playing D1 golf
76-100 20/25 kids 80% kids still playing major college D1 golf at places like LSU and Bama
101-148  36/49 kids 73%  one playing at Southern Cal

I was going to stop at 50, but was so amazed I kept going.  Was then going to stop at 100 and decided to skip lunch and do more research.

I wrote down and have on a list every kid that I couldn't find that made it to the next level.  Probably close to half were from foreign countries.  

I found this to be very cool.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 06 August 2018 - 12:56 PM.


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#13 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:11 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

Of the top 25 kids from the US in the 2010 Pinehurst World Championships for 11yo, 19 of them (76%) are playing in college in America (almost all for D1)

I would guess the % is closer to 50% for the entire field (I don't have time to look up every name), if you count kids who are trying to make it professionally or playing in college or on mini tours internationally

Color be being amazed.  I am actually wrong and couldn't be more ecstatic about it.  I think it is a wonderful thing.  I didn't have time on my hand, but made time for a little research.  Took me about 1 hour and a half.

2010 12 Year Old Division at US Kids World Championships
113 out of the 149 Participants went on to play collegiate golf.  A little skewed because 2 of the foreign players are on the Euro tour.  Didn't count them for playing collegiality.  That is a staggering 76% of the kids playing.  

I broke it down into groups as well.
Top 25 18/26 kids 69%  This probably amazed me the most because the top 25 had the worst percentage of kids playing at the college level.
27-50   21/24 kids 88%  kids in this group playing major college D1 golf
51-75 18-25 kids 72%  several kids in this group still playing D1 golf
76-100 20/25 kids 80% kids still playing major college D1 golf at places like LSU and Bama
101-148  36/49 kids 73%  one playing at Southern Cal

I was going to stop at 50, but was so amazed I kept going.  Was then going to stop at 100 and decided to skip lunch and do more research.

I wrote down and have on a list every kid that I couldn't find that made it to the next level.  Probably close to half were from foreign countries.  

I found this to be very cool.

Good stuff - thanks for doing the work and sharing the results

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#14 kcap

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:16 PM

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

Of the top 25 kids from the US in the 2010 Pinehurst World Championships for 11yo, 19 of them (76%) are playing in college in America (almost all for D1)

I would guess the % is closer to 50% for the entire field (I don't have time to look up every name), if you count kids who are trying to make it professionally or playing in college or on mini tours internationally

Color be being amazed.  I am actually wrong and couldn't be more ecstatic about it.  I think it is a wonderful thing.  I didn't have time on my hand, but made time for a little research.  Took me about 1 hour and a half.

2010 12 Year Old Division at US Kids World Championships
113 out of the 149 Participants went on to play collegiate golf.  A little skewed because 2 of the foreign players are on the Euro tour.  Didn't count them for playing collegiality.  That is a staggering 76% of the kids playing.  

I broke it down into groups as well.
Top 25 18/26 kids 69%  This probably amazed me the most because the top 25 had the worst percentage of kids playing at the college level.
27-50   21/24 kids 88%  kids in this group playing major college D1 golf
51-75 18-25 kids 72%  several kids in this group still playing D1 golf
76-100 20/25 kids 80% kids still playing major college D1 golf at places like LSU and Bama
101-148  36/49 kids 73%  one playing at Southern Cal

I was going to stop at 50, but was so amazed I kept going.  Was then going to stop at 100 and decided to skip lunch and do more research.

I wrote down and have on a list every kid that I couldn't find that made it to the next level.  Probably close to half were from foreign countries.  

I found this to be very cool.
@HH - that is some dedication.   Very interesting and consistent numbers.
thanks

14

#15 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:22 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

Of the top 25 kids from the US in the 2010 Pinehurst World Championships for 11yo, 19 of them (76%) are playing in college in America (almost all for D1)

I would guess the % is closer to 50% for the entire field (I don't have time to look up every name), if you count kids who are trying to make it professionally or playing in college or on mini tours internationally

Color be being amazed.  I am actually wrong and couldn't be more ecstatic about it.  I think it is a wonderful thing.  I didn't have time on my hand, but made time for a little research.  Took me about 1 hour and a half.

2010 12 Year Old Division at US Kids World Championships
113 out of the 149 Participants went on to play collegiate golf.  A little skewed because 2 of the foreign players are on the Euro tour.  Didn't count them for playing collegiality.  That is a staggering 76% of the kids playing.  

I broke it down into groups as well.
Top 25 18/26 kids 69%  This probably amazed me the most because the top 25 had the worst percentage of kids playing at the college level.
27-50   21/24 kids 88%  kids in this group playing major college D1 golf
51-75 18-25 kids 72%  several kids in this group still playing D1 golf
76-100 20/25 kids 80% kids still playing major college D1 golf at places like LSU and Bama
101-148  36/49 kids 73%  one playing at Southern Cal

I was going to stop at 50, but was so amazed I kept going.  Was then going to stop at 100 and decided to skip lunch and do more research.

I wrote down and have on a list every kid that I couldn't find that made it to the next level.  Probably close to half were from foreign countries.  

I found this to be very cool.

Good stuff - thanks for doing the work and sharing the results

I think there will be different numbers as you go down in age groups.  I wouldn't think that the same findings would be true for 7 year olds as they are for 12 year olds.


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#16 tiger1873

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:22 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 09:37 AM, said:

View Posttiger1873, on 06 August 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

This has always been the case. If college scholarship is your goal you need to reach out when there in middle school.  I was told this by multiple college coaches this a good approach. They can't talk to you but they are watching.  Most schools have camps in the summer. Ask about them and build a short list of schools that make sense.  This way you can meet the coach and sort of learn more about their program and give advice.  

If you want a top ranked school your going to have to compete with everyone.  The other side of the equation is if you good enough to be in a top ranked school is it worth your time to even attend?  In a lot cases coaches get burned too by the same kids they hold out for since those kids turn pro and drop the school or just plain become homesick.  So many times spots open up and they don't have the time to recruit much for the position.

I been told it's a lot looking for a job so at the end of the day it's the kids who need to be contacting the Coaches and impress them and actually want to go there.   As a parent you just have to be supportive.


I spoke to a very successful D1 boys coach in the spring and his recommendation for young kids was to pick 3 big tournaments a year to gear up for. That way they have something to look forward to and you aren't burning them out. There will be plenty of time for big tournaments when they hit 14 and start heavy on the AJGA stuff. He also recommended having the kids start going to the college's summer camps like you mentioned. This does two things: they get to meet the kid in person and get a feel for their game and what they are like. Second it allows the kids to see the campus and find out what coaching staff's the kids bond with. He suggested having the kids try a different camp each year. Having the kids write the prospective college coaches isn't a bad idea and you can even email them with your swing videos. Some even set up a youtube page and put swing videos on there that the coaches can access. They will start monitoring the kids as they go through the junior ranks.

What age should the kids ideally start attending these college summer camps?

It's on a case case by case basis.  If you do go to camp don't talk about getting a scholarship with them they can't offer it anyways.  I Be upfront and honest about their abilities. The coaches can actually talk to the kids about camp so you will get responses.  Some coaches I found will take younger kid while others want them older.  Also what ever you do don't push your kid on them.

Also camps are expensive so be choosy on what camps you do. You should be interviewing the coach as much as they are you.  You can certainly tell if their interested or not from my experience.  Coaches that like certain kids will spend a lot time mentoring them during camp and will want to see them as they get older in camp.

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#17 hangontight

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:29 PM

Are those stats for 11 year old girls or boys?

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#18 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:56 PM

View Posthangontight, on 06 August 2018 - 12:29 PM, said:

Are those stats for 11 year old girls or boys?

12 year old boys.

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#19 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:05 PM

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 12:11 PM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 12:08 PM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 10:34 AM, said:

View Postheavy_hitter, on 06 August 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

View PostCTgolf, on 06 August 2018 - 08:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately I don't agree with you that only 8% of kids who qualified for world championships as an 11yo would play golf at the collegiate level (I'm sure it can even be proven statistically using past available results)

You are probably correct.  NCAA says that 8% of High School Girls and 7% of High School Boys will play collegiality.  If I had to guess the kids that go to the World Championships will be somewhere in the 10%-20% range.  Still not good odds.

Of the top 25 kids from the US in the 2010 Pinehurst World Championships for 11yo, 19 of them (76%) are playing in college in America (almost all for D1)

I would guess the % is closer to 50% for the entire field (I don't have time to look up every name), if you count kids who are trying to make it professionally or playing in college or on mini tours internationally

Color be being amazed.  I am actually wrong and couldn't be more ecstatic about it.  I think it is a wonderful thing.  I didn't have time on my hand, but made time for a little research.  Took me about 1 hour and a half.

2010 12 Year Old Division at US Kids World Championships
113 out of the 149 Participants went on to play collegiate golf.  A little skewed because 2 of the foreign players are on the Euro tour.  Didn't count them for playing collegiality.  That is a staggering 76% of the kids playing.  

I broke it down into groups as well.
Top 25 18/26 kids 69%  This probably amazed me the most because the top 25 had the worst percentage of kids playing at the college level.
27-50   21/24 kids 88%  kids in this group playing major college D1 golf
51-75 18-25 kids 72%  several kids in this group still playing D1 golf
76-100 20/25 kids 80% kids still playing major college D1 golf at places like LSU and Bama
101-148  36/49 kids 73%  one playing at Southern Cal

I was going to stop at 50, but was so amazed I kept going.  Was then going to stop at 100 and decided to skip lunch and do more research.

I wrote down and have on a list every kid that I couldn't find that made it to the next level.  Probably close to half were from foreign countries.  

I found this to be very cool.

Good stuff - thanks for doing the work and sharing the results

I think what would also be interesting would be the break down of DI, DII, DIII, NAIA, NJCAA.  I definitely don't have the time to do this.

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#20 CTgolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:27 PM

Serious question(s):

Is it fair to assume that the 12yo boys who are competing at US Kids Worlds are probably there because there is some degree of "early specialization" going on?  E.g. in order to be able to score well enough to win season-long US Kids tours (and gain entry into Worlds), you have probably been focusing on chipping, putting and full shot consistency over big motor skills and "overall athletic development" which is what is presumably being developed (and touted) among multi-sport athletes?

HH's stats have established that a high % of 12yo boys participating at Worlds go on to play college golf.

Therefore, is that early specialization (the byproduct of which is entry to US Kids Worlds) what ultimately allows juniors to play at the college level?

It seems to go along with the hypothesis of this thread initially, that colleges recruiting earlier forces kids to demonstrate very high skill levels earlier, which leads to earlier specialization.

If this is the case, then early specialization may be detrimental to overall "long-term" athletic development (think professional tour pros) but may be somewhat necessary if the goal is to ensure playing at the college level.


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#21 Z1ggy16

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:41 PM

My fiance is a DPT and has read/studied a lot on these particular subjects. She is at least fully convinced, whether her own medical opinion or from actual studies, that kids should not specialize in just one sport until they are around the age of 13 or 14. If you only try to specialize in one skill from a very early age you will not allow your muscles to develop properly.... you will over develop one group and leave another under developed.

She is in favor of making sure that kids not only cross train but also take time away from ANY sports at all, until they are more fully developed. This means your kiddies shouldn't be doing sports 365 days a year and get a month or two off. Not only is this good for them physically, but it's important for them mentally and socially. If all your 8 year old did was golf... he's probably going to get bored. If he golfs in the summer, takes some time off in the fall, starts hockey in the winter, then gets a little more time off then does spring baseball before he goes back to golf, he will probably be much healthier and happier long term.

Just my 2nd hand opinion.
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#22 leezer99

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:56 PM

Very interesting thread that I'll have to bookmark and get back to.  

We are seeing the same thing with girls gymnastics where they are making verbal commitments as early as 7th grade.

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#23 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:59 PM

View PostZ1ggy16, on 06 August 2018 - 01:41 PM, said:

My fiance is a DPT and has read/studied a lot on these particular subjects. She is at least fully convinced, whether her own medical opinion or from actual studies, that kids should not specialize in just one sport until they are around the age of 13 or 14. If you only try to specialize in one skill from a very early age you will not allow your muscles to develop properly.... you will over develop one group and leave another under developed.

She is in favor of making sure that kids not only cross train but also take time away from ANY sports at all, until they are more fully developed. This means your kiddies shouldn't be doing sports 365 days a year and get a month or two off. Not only is this good for them physically, but it's important for them mentally and socially. If all your 8 year old did was golf... he's probably going to get bored. If he golfs in the summer, takes some time off in the fall, starts hockey in the winter, then gets a little more time off then does spring baseball before he goes back to golf, he will probably be much healthier and happier long term.

Just my 2nd hand opinion.

Sport Related injuries due to over use is huge anymore.  It has become a business all in itself because of year round sports for kids.

I think right at 11 my boy started playing golf year round.  He took time off for basketball season.  I am as guilty as anyone.  He does see a trainer two days a week to work on developing the appropriate muscles and to make him into a better athlete. Up until that time he played baseball every spring, football in the fall.  Baseball ended up getting in the way of golf.  He was also very bored with baseball though he was good at it.  Football head injury risk stopped him from playing anymore.  All the research shows that a kid shouldn't play tackle football until after 14.  Until 11 he played everything under the son.

Fortunately, my kid doesn't over use at the range.  I think in golf that is where the overuse can come in.  Pounding hundreds of balls on the range is a curse for overuse and back related injuries.  He is not a range rate and does not like sitting up there for hours hitting balls.  He can spend all day putting.  He likes to go play.

Edited by heavy_hitter, 06 August 2018 - 02:02 PM.


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#24 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 02:23 PM

There was a stat somewhere that showed a huge percentage of the guys on tour were multi sport participants well into high school. I think the general consensus is to start specializing somewhere around 13-14. Chris Dimarco was on the radio awhile back talking about his son and that was his belief as well.

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#25 BertGA

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 02:48 PM

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

There was a stat somewhere that showed a huge percentage of the guys on tour were multi sport participants well into high school. I think the general consensus is to start specializing somewhere around 13-14. Chris Dimarco was on the radio awhile back talking about his son and that was his belief as well.


I think perhaps the generational expectation of that has changed. I've only been following golf for the last 5 or so years, but in that time alone I have seen an uptick in the national exposure of junior golf. DCP has grown from a sideshow to a big time deal. PGA Junior League finals are televised, NCAA finals get top billing on Golf Channel, etc.

My point:The experience of people who came up 10 years ago is perhaps not as relevant with the current group of kids growing up. On one hand we tell kids to hold off on specialization, then the other hand tell them that if they haven't reached a certain level of capabilities by 16, their chances of D1 golf are small. That's about a two-year window to develop. As competitive as junior golf is, that's difficult to reconcile.


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#26 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 03:30 PM

I get what you are saying and I think it applies to most kids. However, there are always going to be those folks who start the game late but because of of good given abilities pass kids who have been playing their whole life. Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, and Lee Trevino are just a few examples of folks who started late to the game but still managed to hit elite status. In the end, you either have the ability or you donít. You can definitely get better by spending more time at it but ultimately your god given ability will determine whether you make it or not.

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#27 heavy_hitter

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 03:42 PM

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

I get what you are saying and I think it applies to most kids. However, there are always going to be those folks who start the game late but because of of good given abilities pass kids who have been playing their whole life. Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, and Lee Trevino are just a few examples of folks who started late to the game but still managed to hit elite status. In the end, you either have the ability or you don't. You can definitely get better by spending more time at it but ultimately your god given ability will determine whether you make it or not.

Gary Player didn't touch a club until he was 15.

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#28 hangontight

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 03:49 PM

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

I get what you are saying and I think it applies to most kids. However, there are always going to be those folks who start the game late but because of of good given abilities pass kids who have been playing their whole life. Greg Norman, Nick Faldo, and Lee Trevino are just a few examples of folks who started late to the game but still managed to hit elite status. In the end, you either have the ability or you donít. You can definitely get better by spending more time at it but ultimately your god given ability will determine whether you make it or not.

Only time will tell, but one could reason that as a bygone era - one without the high level organized youth sports as we do now, that those stories of late bloomers (those who truly never picked up a club until they were teens) would be even more rare in todayís world of youth sports ďprofessionalizationĒ.  Weíll see and someone please point out if this is wrong, but I donít recall any newcomers to the PGA tour in the last 5-10 years that have a ďlate startĒ story. Certainly most were multi sport guys.

Edited by hangontight, 06 August 2018 - 04:01 PM.


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#29 Golfingdawg19

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 04:11 PM

You could be right that some of those guys who started late to the game benefited from being in an era where junior golf isnít as strong as it is today. What canít be denied that athleticism is key to doing well on any golf tour. That is why so many golfers work out like they do today. I had a PGA tour trainer tell me that kids need to work out today because they arenít exercising all parts of their body like they used to. This comes from the fact that kids are specializing early and only working the parts of their body that are specific to their sport. I still think that playing different sports until 8-9th grade benefits the kids in so many ways. Nobody mentions the fact that kids who have never been involved in team sports may be harder to coach down the line because they have mainly focused only on themselves. So many benefits that canít be measured by playing multiple sports growing up.

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#30 leezer99

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 04:14 PM

View PostGolfingdawg19, on 06 August 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

You could be right that some of those guys who started late to the game benefited from being in an era where junior golf isn’t as strong as it is today. What can’t be denied that athleticism is key to doing well on any golf tour. That is why so many golfers work out like they do today. I had a PGA tour trainer tell me that kids need to work out today because they aren’t exercising all parts of their body like they used to. This comes from the fact that kids are specializing early and only working the parts of their body that are specific to their sport. I still think that playing different sports until 8-9th grade benefits the kids in so many ways. Nobody mentions the fact that kids who have never been involved in team sports may be harder to coach down the line because they have mainly focused only on themselves. So many benefits that can’t be measured by playing multiple sports growing up.
Multiple team sports is huge imo.


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