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Korean Domination in the LPGA (censored)


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#1 nova6868

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Posted 02 August 2018 - 10:41 AM

So the main page had several interesting thoughts on Korean women dominating the LPGA. Myself and others had posted some comments along the lines of comparing golf to other sports where certain ethnic groups seem to excel. (Good for them) For example, West Africans dominate sprinting and East Africans do very well in long distance running. Even if they happened to grow up in other countries. In weightlifting East Asians tend to dominate the lighter and middle weight classes, while Russians and Persians do well in the heavyweight classes.

This isn't to say there aren't cultural issues at play, obviously there are. But what is wrong with saying certain ethnicities may excel at certain sports? Why does this discussion need censored? Who deleted the comments? Was it you, Ben?

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#2 mosesgolf

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 10:14 AM

Maybe it’s just random.
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#3 BottleCap

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 10:21 AM

I think what you're saying is reality.

One of my best buddies is Korean, lived two houses away and we played all the sports growing up. Once we got to junior high he didn't like to play basketball anymore because everyone else got taller than him (this was before all the hormones and stuff they put in foods now to make everyone big in both directions), so it wasn't enjoyable since he experienced a lot of blocked shots. He gravitated to sports where there wasn't so much contact where size would be a disadvantage, which was cool with me since baseball was my favorite sport, I played first base and he was on second.

So I don't think it's flimsy rationale to say people of certain races may tend to favor sports that they can enjoy due to some genetic advantage or less of a disadvantage.
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#4 cardoustie

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 12:10 PM

I think it is access to sports growing up and the culture of that sport per country

two examples spring to mind

- Canadians and hockey
- pick any South American country and soccer (football)
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#5 Longballbogey

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 05:22 PM

 cardoustie, on 03 August 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

I think it is access to sports growing up and the culture of that sport per country

two examples spring to mind

- Canadians and hockey
- pick any South American country and soccer (football)



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#6 MadGolfer76

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 05:29 PM

If the members manage to get past 20 posts in this thread before it gets shut down, I would be shocked.

(There, I did my part).
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#7 bladehunter

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 06:08 PM

they shouldnt lock this if the "fashion" thread is allowed to live..  Its creepier and creepier
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#8 Oldboy

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 06:08 PM

 nova6868, on 02 August 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

So the main page had several interesting thoughts on Korean women dominating the LPGA. Myself and others had posted some comments along the lines of comparing golf to other sports where certain ethnic groups seem to excel. (Good for them) For example, West Africans dominate sprinting and East Africans do very well in long distance running. Even if they happened to grow up in other countries. In weightlifting East Asians tend to dominate the lighter and middle weight classes, while Russians and Persians do well in the heavyweight classes.

This isn't to say there aren't cultural issues at play, obviously there are. But what is wrong with saying certain ethnicities may excel at certain sports? Why does this discussion need censored? Who deleted the comments? Was it you, Ben?

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it seems logical doesn't it?  until you look at the men and see its really not.  should we apply your theory to the brain as well?  or just athletics?  just curious

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#9 MadGolfer76

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 06:13 PM

 bladehunter, on 03 August 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

they shouldnt lock this if the "fashion" thread is allowed to live..  Its creepier and creepier

Don't worry, that is all "scripted."
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#10 legitimategolf

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 09:14 PM

USA still dominates the LPGA. There are more LPGA members from the USA than any other country and it's not even close.


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#11 Edaw68

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 09:26 PM

 cardoustie, on 03 August 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

I think it is access to sports growing up and the culture of that sport per country

two examples spring to mind

- Canadians and hockey
- pick any South American country and soccer (football)

This is a far bigger factor than anything.  Jessica Korda said as much regarding the LPGA, saying that they have schools and developmental tours and such.  The US on the other hand has junior golf then college.

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#12 Jasonic

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 12:26 AM

 Oldboy, on 03 August 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

 nova6868, on 02 August 2018 - 10:41 AM, said:

So the main page had several interesting thoughts on Korean women dominating the LPGA. Myself and others had posted some comments along the lines of comparing golf to other sports where certain ethnic groups seem to excel. (Good for them) For example, West Africans dominate sprinting and East Africans do very well in long distance running. Even if they happened to grow up in other countries. In weightlifting East Asians tend to dominate the lighter and middle weight classes, while Russians and Persians do well in the heavyweight classes.

This isn't to say there aren't cultural issues at play, obviously there are. But what is wrong with saying certain ethnicities may excel at certain sports? Why does this discussion need censored? Who deleted the comments? Was it you, Ben?

Posted Image

it seems logical doesn't it?  until you look at the men and see its really not.  should we apply your theory to the brain as well?  or just athletics?  just curious

Its cultural not athletics or someoneís brain. Golf is huge in Korea and because the first Korean to win a major was se ri pak, womenís golf took center stage.
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#13 Jasonic

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 12:27 AM

 legitimategolf, on 03 August 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

USA still dominates the LPGA. There are more LPGA members from the USA than any other country and it's not even close.

LOL. Look at winners not members. I think youíll see who dominates.
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#14 4waymiss

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 01:31 AM

 legitimategolf, on 03 August 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

USA still dominates the LPGA. There are more LPGA members from the USA than any other country and it's not even close.

Only because the 2nd tier Korean players prefer to stay in Korea. When you look at last year's LPGA money list. 11 of the top 25 players are Korean. But then only 4 Koreans from 25th to 100th. It is very top heavy.

I can see the reason behind the choice. Those players probably make more money being the top tier players in KLPGA instead of 2nd tier players in LPGA. While sleeping in their own bed and enjoying homemake kimchi.

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#15 legitimategolf

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 10:15 AM

The Koreans are doing what they've been doing for a while now. It is old news. I agree with Jasonic, it's deeply cultural. They love golf. It is considered a somewhat hip and youthful sport even. Elite golfers like Inbee and Na Yeon Choi are bona fide celebrities in Korea; actors, athletes, K-pop idols are among their fanboy/fangirls.

Golf in the USA on the other hand is very old hat. I just looked it up, "Dorf on Golf" came out way back in 1987. That is to say Americans started rolling their eyes at golf a long time ago. If you ask me the decline of US women's golf is the bigger story here than the rise of Koreans.

IMO no amount of government intervention or funding will enable American female pro golfers to rise to the current level of Korean counterparts. This particular cultural gap is insurmountable, probably. A young American girl weighing her career options, knows that even if she were to rise to the top of her profession as a golfer, she would still be shunned by people like Rihanna or Leo DiCaprio. The young girl in Korea on the other hand sees a much different landscape.


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#16 legitimategolf

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 10:16 AM

 4waymiss, on 04 August 2018 - 01:31 AM, said:

 legitimategolf, on 03 August 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

USA still dominates the LPGA. There are more LPGA members from the USA than any other country and it's not even close.

Only because the 2nd tier Korean players prefer to stay in Korea. When you look at last year's LPGA money list. 11 of the top 25 players are Korean. But then only 4 Koreans from 25th to 100th. It is very top heavy.

I can see the reason behind the choice. Those players probably make more money being the top tier players in KLPGA instead of 2nd tier players in LPGA. While sleeping in their own bed and enjoying homemake kimchi.

The disparity is even more glaring when you look at the top 100 in the world rankings. I didn't go there because the OP specifically referenced Koreans on the LPGA.

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#17 Longballbogey

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 08:11 PM

Don't fully agree with what Korda said. A lot of Korean Women left their homeland in pursue of good golf..  And, if you look at the American Men, 4 of the top 5 are Americans, Americans won most of the majors in the last few years. On the women's  side it's very strange.  Everything points in favor of the American Women.  They're at home, they have friends here, they can eat at any restaurant where the foreign players struggle with the language, with the food, being lonely, and who knows what else.  It may be culture, it may be Family sacrifices, it may be the Americans train with the Air Force and the Foreign women train with the Navy SEALS.....I don't know. :slow_en:

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#18 Golf Dino

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 09:44 PM

Quote

"Don't fully agree with what Korda said. A lot of Korean Women left their homeland in pursue of good golf..  And, if you look at the American Men, 4 of the top 5 are Americans, Americans won most of the majors in the last few years. On the women's  side it's very strange.  Everything points in favor of the American Women.  They're at home, they have friends here, they can eat at any restaurant where the foreign players struggle with the language, with the food, being lonely, and who knows what else.  It may be culture, it may be Family sacrifices, it may be the Americans train with the Air Force and the Foreign women train with the Navy SEALS.....I don't know"

What Jessica Korda spoke of made very good sense.  American women are in a “down cycle” in terms of highly skilled, athletic and proficient players.  They are between generations in that the older players are in the relative twilights of their careers (ie: the Cristie Kerr’s and the Paula Creamer’s).  

There are some younger women coming along such as Emma Talley, Angel Yin, Lindsay Weaver, and some very promising collegiate stars such as Kristen Gillman, Cheyenne Knight, Lauren Stephenson, and more.  There are youngsters such as Lucy Li and Alexa Pano in the junior golf ranks that have already had experience playing events on the LPGA.

The point Korda made about having a “national team” type of program is very on point.  Should USGA support a developmental team program or a developmental academy of sorts, then the American girls and young women would have that type of quality coaching, training and support systems.  It would help support their development and growth as players from adolescence (teen years) through to their collegiate years.

The other often unspoken “truth” about women’s golf in America is that it seems that the culture is not as conducive to the work ethic that seems so very inherent in the Asian cultures.  Many of the Asian cultures are more focused on personal sacrifice to attain one’s goals – whether it be in business or practicing one’s mid iron approaches.  

Personally, there is a “school of thought” that is pushing back against this notion that I tend to agree with.  Basically, children and teenagers with athletic skills do better in their preferred sport if they were multi-sport kids growing up.  Getting that rest, both physical and mental/emotional, has been important to their development as athletes.  

American women are in a bit of transition in professional golf, but they will rebound.  A “national team” type of program that Korda made reference to would also be a big step towards developing more proficient players that would boost the competitiveness of American women in professional golf.

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#19 thug the bunny

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Posted 04 August 2018 - 09:55 PM

Korean moms. I got one. You don't mess with them.
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#20 finleysg

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 08:28 AM

 legitimategolf, on 04 August 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

The Koreans are doing what they've been doing for a while now. It is old news. I agree with Jasonic, it's deeply cultural. They love golf. It is considered a somewhat hip and youthful sport even. Elite golfers like Inbee and Na Yeon Choi are bona fide celebrities in Korea; actors, athletes, K-pop idols are among their fanboy/fangirls.

Golf in the USA on the other hand is very old hat. I just looked it up, "Dorf on Golf" came out way back in 1987. That is to say Americans started rolling their eyes at golf a long time ago. If you ask me the decline of US women's golf is the bigger story here than the rise of Koreans.

IMO no amount of government intervention or funding will enable American female pro golfers to rise to the current level of Korean counterparts. This particular cultural gap is insurmountable, probably. A young American girl weighing her career options, knows that even if she were to rise to the top of her profession as a golfer, she would still be shunned by people like Rihanna or Leo DiCaprio. The young girl in Korea on the other hand sees a much different landscape.

Golf is a rich, white man's game -- that stereotype will never change for many people, despite any evidence to the contrary. In Minneapolis, there has been a quixotic battle over the past year or so to save a golf course that suffers from constant flooding. In the current political climate of the city, there is no support for spending money on golf. This despite the fact that this golf course has traditionally been the home of golf for black players in the city. Back in the day, it was the home of the Bronze Championship (a tournament primarily for black players), and the "hustlers" who owned Friday afternoons out there were legendary. None of that history matters.

For young women, golf is definitely a scholarship opportunity at the college level, but there's a pretty big gap between being good in college and competing with the women coming out of Korea, Japan, Thailand, and other Asian countries. Like you pointed out, golf is new and fresh and hip there.

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#21 lowheel

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 02:05 AM

 legitimategolf, on 03 August 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

USA still dominates the LPGA. There are more LPGA members from the USA than any other country and it's not even close.

Posted Image

In all seriousness, membership means nothing in comparison to the the wins...

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#22 3puttchamp

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 07:45 AM

 legitimategolf, on 03 August 2018 - 09:14 PM, said:

USA still dominates the LPGA. There are more LPGA members from the USA than any other country and it's not even close.

I didn't know dominating only requires a membership.  I guess that is why the Korean women are so good.  In Korea, you have to WIN to dominate.

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#23 Swisstrader98

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 07:54 AM

 thug the bunny, on 04 August 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

Korean moms. I got one. You don't mess with them.

100%!! I have a Korean wife and you donít mess with them either. My wife tells the kids to do something and they do it, no questions asked. There are pluses and minuses to this approach but deep respect for the Korean momma.

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#24 Argonne69

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 10:46 AM

IMHO, the answer is obvious. I agree with veteran caddie Dean Herden, the KLPGA Tour is the best structured tour in the world (http://www.oursporti...an-golf-dynasty). While U.S. women are balancing golf with school work in college programs, the Korean women are grinding it out in professional tournaments week in and week out. There are 30 tournaments on the KLPGA schedule this season, and purses are roughly half those on the LPGA. The Jump and Dream Tours feed the main tour. With locations easily reachable by car, and most tournaments being only 3 rounds, a player can play in plenty of events and still have some semblance of a life. They can also make a reasonable living with the purse size.

While the U.S. college system does produce an occasional top player, the vast majority of players barely make it past the Symetra Tour, and then struggle on the LPGA. Purses on the Symetra Tour are a joke, averaging ~$150k. By comparison, the average KLPGA purse is ~$600k. Unless one has deep pockets, one can not make a living on the feeder series.

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#25 thug the bunny

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 10:47 AM

 Swisstrader98, on 06 August 2018 - 07:54 AM, said:

 thug the bunny, on 04 August 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

Korean moms. I got one. You don't mess with them.

100%!! I have a Korean wife and you don't mess with them either. My wife tells the kids to do something and they do it, no questions asked. There are pluses and minuses to this approach but deep respect for the Korean momma.

My mom was actually the most laid back of her sisters and sister in laws. I have cousins who are doctors, rich businessmen, and one classical musician.

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#26 legitimategolf

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 11:56 AM

 Argonne69, on 06 August 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

IMHO, the answer is obvious. I agree with veteran caddie Dean Herden, the KLPGA Tour is the best structured tour in the world (http://www.oursporti...an-golf-dynasty). While U.S. women are balancing golf with school work in college programs, the Korean women are grinding it out in professional tournaments week in and week out. There are 30 tournaments on the KLPGA schedule this season, and purses are roughly half those on the LPGA. The Jump and Dream Tours feed the main tour. With locations easily reachable by car, and most tournaments being only 3 rounds, a player can play in plenty of events and still have some semblance of a life. They can also make a reasonable living with the purse size.

While the U.S. college system does produce an occasional top player, the vast majority of players barely make it past the Symetra Tour, and then struggle on the LPGA. Purses on the Symetra Tour are a joke, averaging ~$150k. By comparison, the average KLPGA purse is ~$600k. Unless one has deep pockets, one can not make a living on the feeder series.

Good observation, and also it kind of hints at the hopelessness of the situation. I'm guessing those tours exist (and thrive) in Korea mostly on account of consumer demand, and not so much some grand masterplan to take over the US LPGA. That is to say, we are screwed. There's no way we could set up a system like that. The American golf watching public here barely supports the big tour, forget about a feeder tour.

Anyways this is not just a Korean situation at this point, other countries such as Thailand look they are about to also surpass the USA in women's golf. Additionally, two of the last five women's major champions are Swedish. European women barely have a golf tour to speak of and they are doing okay.

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#27 MelloYello

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 12:19 PM

I would agree that the support is likely a reflection of the inherent demand.

So what exactly is it that drives the popularity of women's golf in South Korea?
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#28 Argonne69

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:05 PM

 legitimategolf, on 06 August 2018 - 11:56 AM, said:


Anyways this is not just a Korean situation at this point, other countries such as Thailand look they are about to also surpass the USA in women's golf. Additionally, two of the last five women's major champions are Swedish. European women barely have a golf tour to speak of and they are doing okay.

I think the women's game in Europe is in pretty bad shape, even with Anna's and Pernilla's recent wins. No European players are ranked in the Top 10. Only two are in the top 25, and eight in the top 50.

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#29 Argonne69

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:09 PM

 MelloYello, on 06 August 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

I would agree that the support is likely a reflection of the inherent demand.

So what exactly is it that drives the popularity of women's golf in South Korea?

I think it boils down to the Se Ri effect.

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#30 MelloYello

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Posted 06 August 2018 - 01:46 PM

 Argonne69, on 06 August 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

 MelloYello, on 06 August 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

I would agree that the support is likely a reflection of the inherent demand.

So what exactly is it that drives the popularity of women's golf in South Korea?

I think it boils down to the Se Ri effect.

Well, there are winners in every sport but not every sport becomes popular. Michael Phelps was the best swimmer ever, yet I really doubt many kids said, "oh, I have to do that!"

I wonder if there's any truth to this claim from Wikipedia:

"...Golf is very popular in South Korea. It is often thought that this is linked to the fact that golf is considered a status symbol.[4] Membership in golf clubs in South Korea is considerably more expensive than in Japan or the US..."

Now, to me, that sounds like it could be true.

Edited by MelloYello, 06 August 2018 - 01:49 PM.

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