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Ban Green-Reading Books?

putting range finders green-reading books Bryson DeChambeau Pin-placement maps Golfweek

81 replies to this topic

#31 Roadking2003

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 09:28 PM

View PostJc0, on 28 July 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostJc0, on 28 July 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't know how many of you have actually used a green map.  My experience is that they are of very little value.  The ones I have tried to use don't tell you which way your putt breaks.  They just show the contours and you have to estimate where your ball lies on those little maps and where the pin is located.

The ones the pros have are far more detailed. They basically cover every square foot of the green and give slope value at each point.

You still have to guess where the pin and your ball are located.

Anybody have a picture of the "Pro green books" mentioned above?  I would like to see how different they are from these;

https://progreenbook.com/

Go to the tour page to see how detailed the tour books are.

https://www.greenboo...ent-green-books

That's the same site I posted.  You still have to guess where the pin and ball are located.


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#32 Aaronwilson_95

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Posted 28 July 2018 - 10:07 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 09:28 PM, said:

View PostJc0, on 28 July 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostJc0, on 28 July 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't know how many of you have actually used a green map.  My experience is that they are of very little value.  The ones I have tried to use don't tell you which way your putt breaks.  They just show the contours and you have to estimate where your ball lies on those little maps and where the pin is located.

The ones the pros have are far more detailed. They basically cover every square foot of the green and give slope value at each point.

You still have to guess where the pin and your ball are located.


Anybody have a picture of the "Pro green books" mentioned above?  I would like to see how different they are from these;

https://progreenbook.com/

Go to the tour page to see how detailed the tour books are.

https://www.greenboo...ent-green-books

That's the same site I posted.  You still have to guess where the pin and ball are located.

Quadrants are 5 paces by 5 paces . Not terribly hard to find that location , assuming you can use some common sense

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#33 bigchucksr

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Posted 29 July 2018 - 10:33 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postbigchucksr, on 27 July 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

This is an interesting discussion, after watching the Open last week and seeing the profusion of both yardage books and green charts being used, a question came to mind--"what is the difference between these books and a gps system?"
I'd much prefer a "natural" game where the golfer and caddie make the decisions based on what they know and see before them--tee to green--every shot, every putt.
It would be interesting to see who then emerged from the pack as the "best reader" of the green or the "best reader" of the course as a whole--adding a new (once old) dimension to the professional game.
I for one am a bit tired of the routine of a player and caddie intently studying some illustrated book before every shot/putt during the round.
I say turn 'em loose and let's see who can conquer a golf course naturally without outside assistance.

And ban caddies so they don't get any outside assistance?
I don't get your analogy.  Caddies have always been part of the "team" in professional (and in some cases amateur) golf.  Explain, if you can, the difference between these publications and the banned GPS systems available to all golfers.

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#34 clublender

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 11:14 AM

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 09:28 PM, said:

View PostJc0, on 28 July 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View PostJc0, on 28 July 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 07:20 AM, said:

I don't know how many of you have actually used a green map.  My experience is that they are of very little value.  The ones I have tried to use don't tell you which way your putt breaks.  They just show the contours and you have to estimate where your ball lies on those little maps and where the pin is located.

The ones the pros have are far more detailed. They basically cover every square foot of the green and give slope value at each point.

You still have to guess where the pin and your ball are located.

Anybody have a picture of the "Pro green books" mentioned above?  I would like to see how different they are from these;

https://progreenbook.com/

Go to the tour page to see how detailed the tour books are.

https://www.greenboo...ent-green-books

That's the same site I posted.  You still have to guess where the pin and ball are located.

Looks like a topographical map on steroids, but figuring out exactly where your ball is and the pin would still be a challenge.

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#35 clublender

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 11:20 AM

View Postbigchucksr, on 29 July 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postbigchucksr, on 27 July 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

This is an interesting discussion, after watching the Open last week and seeing the profusion of both yardage books and green charts being used, a question came to mind--"what is the difference between these books and a gps system?"
I'd much prefer a "natural" game where the golfer and caddie make the decisions based on what they know and see before them--tee to green--every shot, every putt.
It would be interesting to see who then emerged from the pack as the "best reader" of the green or the "best reader" of the course as a whole--adding a new (once old) dimension to the professional game.
I for one am a bit tired of the routine of a player and caddie intently studying some illustrated book before every shot/putt during the round.
I say turn 'em loose and let's see who can conquer a golf course naturally without outside assistance.

And ban caddies so they don't get any outside assistance?
I don't get your analogy.  Caddies have always been part of the "team" in professional (and in some cases amateur) golf.  Explain, if you can, the difference between these publications and the banned GPS systems available to all golfers.

Golf has changed a great deal, from the golfer and caddie, who long ago was often just a kid, alone to a team approach. Jordan Spieth, for example, will often say "we" and talk about his team, including his caddie, chiropractor, manager, trainer and so forth. https://www.business...me-2015-8  With so much on the line for pros these days, they can afford to use everything they can to improve, and for many of them, that means a team approach. It seems the green-reading book is just a small part of that, although looking at the books with all their plethora of markings, golfers should probably also hire a cartographer for their team.


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#36 Roadking2003

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 11:59 AM

View Postbigchucksr, on 29 July 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

View PostRoadking2003, on 28 July 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

View Postbigchucksr, on 27 July 2018 - 11:18 AM, said:

This is an interesting discussion, after watching the Open last week and seeing the profusion of both yardage books and green charts being used, a question came to mind--"what is the difference between these books and a gps system?"
I'd much prefer a "natural" game where the golfer and caddie make the decisions based on what they know and see before them--tee to green--every shot, every putt.
It would be interesting to see who then emerged from the pack as the "best reader" of the green or the "best reader" of the course as a whole--adding a new (once old) dimension to the professional game.
I for one am a bit tired of the routine of a player and caddie intently studying some illustrated book before every shot/putt during the round.
I say turn 'em loose and let's see who can conquer a golf course naturally without outside assistance.

And ban caddies so they don't get any outside assistance?
I don't get your analogy.  Caddies have always been part of the "team" in professional (and in some cases amateur) golf.  Explain, if you can, the difference between these publications and the banned GPS systems available to all golfers.

No difference.  But if the goal is to make the player rely only on his own skills, then ban all assistance including caddies.

However, I don't support that goal so I think they should be able to use green books, caddie advice and GPS equipment.

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#37 Roadking2003

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 12:03 PM

View Postclublender, on 30 July 2018 - 11:14 AM, said:

Looks like a topographical map on steroids, but figuring out exactly where your ball is and the pin would still be a challenge.

That's what I thought when I tried to use one.   You have to locate your ball and the hole EXACTLY or you could get bad info.  If you are off by even two feet for either the ball or hole, you could get bad info.

And if you take more than 15 - 20 seconds to do so, you playing partners are going to be all over you for slow play.

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#38 rangersgoalie

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 12:35 PM

if You spend time with anyone that knows how to locate on the books that Mark Long makes for the tour,
It is very simple to place yourself in the correct spot.
The hole locations have also gotten incredibly accurate, which simplifies the process a lot.

You are correct that being off  by a couple feet can influence the reads greatly.
But learning the process, is not too difficult

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#39 manku

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 12:51 PM

What bothers me, and the apparel companies can't be happy, is the awful look of a what looks like a yellow pages (apologies to those under 30, or is it 40, who have never seen one!) stuffed into their back pocket.

And I can't imagine it's comfortable either...I don't like anything except tees, a golf ball (or two)  and some ball markers in my pants pockets.

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#40 Ferguson

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 01:06 PM

View Postrawdog, on 28 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

So what publicly-available information can be documented and referenced, and what can't?

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line. No one has helped me draw it.


I never liked art class, therefore Ferg can't help.


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#41 rawdog

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 01:48 PM

View PostFerguson, on 30 July 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postrawdog, on 28 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

So what publicly-available information can be documented and referenced, and what can't?

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line. No one has helped me draw it.


I never liked art class, therefore Ferg can't help.

Thank you for essentially bumping my post. I'm still waiting for an answer.
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#42 Ferguson

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 02:44 PM

View Postrawdog, on 30 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

View PostFerguson, on 30 July 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postrawdog, on 28 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

So what publicly-available information can be documented and referenced, and what can't?

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line. No one has helped me draw it.


I never liked art class, therefore Ferg can't help.

Thank you for essentially bumping my post. I'm still waiting for an answer.


It bugs me that they want to ban printed material.   The guy still needs to make the putt.

TPCbook3.gif

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#43 new2g0lf

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 03:46 PM

View Postrawdog, on 30 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

View PostFerguson, on 30 July 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postrawdog, on 28 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

So what publicly-available information can be documented and referenced, and what can't?

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line. No one has helped me draw it.


I never liked art class, therefore Ferg can't help.

Thank you for essentially bumping my post. I'm still waiting for an answer.

You won't get an answer because there's not an easy one.  Many believe in minimalist golf that goes back to the Hogan and prior days, they want rolled back equipment, banning of green books, minimal caddie involvement, etc.  I still contend that despite all the technology advancements, the game is still very hard to master.  

I don't think green books are much better than what golfers and caddies created on their own, nor do they take more time to use compared to the gyrations I see some golfers go through to read a putt or the endless consultation with caddies that happens in the LPGA.  I think the best answer is put golfers on a shot clock when their ball and their bodies reach the green.  Let them refer to a book, consult with their caddie, use their own yardage book or phone a friend so long as they do it in the allotted time.
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#44 smashdn

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 04:10 PM

View Postclublender, on 26 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bryson DeChambeau ran into some trouble recently using a compass on the course. Then Golfweek recently broke the story that beginning January 1, 2019, green-reading books may be outlawed on tour. What should pros be allowed to use to assist their game and what should be banned? Green-reading books? Pin-placement maps? Rangefinders? Carts? Compasses? What's integral to the game and what is just a tool, like a sand wedge, a golf bag and a caddy? Can a golfer use a computer to calculate the best path to sink a putt?

What skills are essential "golf skills" you want to test?  I think it would be interesting to have the guys get their own yardages (by estimating them on course, no markers or sprinkler heads, etc.) as I personally believe that estimating yardage is a golf skill.  Pin placement maps, yardage books, etc. have eliminated blind shots in essence and have also killed some of the depth perception tricks employed by architects.  Thus course knowledge and prior homework is slightly nullified.

I don't need to see featheries and niblicks but estimating yardage is a skill and the lengthy conversations have slowed down the pro game.  And unfortunately Jimmy Shanks at the local muni is taking his cues from the tour.

I've told this here before but bohica:
Weekend before last I was waiting on the tee on a par five.  An adjoining par five green is just uphill from this tee box.  I hear the approach shot hit the green and bounce off the back.  No more than 25 yards tops off the back of the green.  Tour visor guy (what he was wearing) rolls up in cart, locks the brakes, and cussing, jumps out to survey the damage.  He pulls his trusty bushnell and gets his yardage at all of 25 yards.  I nearly lost my shiz right there on the tee.

View PostNight train, on 28 July 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Reading a green is like judging the wind or trying to decide how much an upslope or downslope affects your yardage. It's part of the skill required to be good at the game. If the books didn't offer an advantage, no one would be using them.

Or is it a perceived advantage that if one guy is using them they must all use it to keep the playing field level in their minds?  Wonder how many times a guy gives that dumb look and arm wave in the opposite direction of the break after missing a putt was the result of that book?

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#45 Night train

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 04:23 PM

While we're at it............let's do away with drawing lines on the ball for lining up putts! It's an alignment aid and should be banned.

..........and get off my lawn!


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#46 SavageCy

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 04:46 PM

View Postnew2g0lf, on 30 July 2018 - 03:46 PM, said:

View Postrawdog, on 30 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

View PostFerguson, on 30 July 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

View Postrawdog, on 28 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

So what publicly-available information can be documented and referenced, and what can't?

I'm trying to figure out where to draw the line. No one has helped me draw it.


I never liked art class, therefore Ferg can't help.

Thank you for essentially bumping my post. I'm still waiting for an answer.

You won't get an answer because there's not an easy one.  Many believe in minimalist golf that goes back to the Hogan and prior days, they want rolled back equipment, banning of green books, minimal caddie involvement, etc.  I still contend that despite all the technology advancements, the game is still very hard to master.  

I don't think green books are much better than what golfers and caddies created on their own, nor do they take more time to use compared to the gyrations I see some golfers go through to read a putt or the endless consultation with caddies that happens in the LPGA.  I think the best answer is put golfers on a shot clock when their ball and their bodies reach the green.  Let them refer to a book, consult with their caddie, use their own yardage book or phone a friend so long as they do it in the allotted time.

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#47 clublender

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 10:47 AM

View PostNight train, on 30 July 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

While we're at it............let's do away with drawing lines on the ball for lining up putts! It's an alignment aid and should be banned.

..........and get off my lawn!
At least pros are not allowed to draw a line on the green. They could use the paint like soccer/football refs do to mark off where a penalty kick is from and how far back defenders have to stand.

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#48 wrmiller

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 10:59 AM

View Postsmashdn, on 30 July 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View Postclublender, on 26 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bryson DeChambeau ran into some trouble recently using a compass on the course. Then Golfweek recently broke the story that beginning January 1, 2019, green-reading books may be outlawed on tour. What should pros be allowed to use to assist their game and what should be banned? Green-reading books? Pin-placement maps? Rangefinders? Carts? Compasses? What's integral to the game and what is just a tool, like a sand wedge, a golf bag and a caddy? Can a golfer use a computer to calculate the best path to sink a putt?

What skills are essential "golf skills" you want to test?  I think it would be interesting to have the guys get their own yardages (by estimating them on course, no markers or sprinkler heads, etc.) as I personally believe that estimating yardage is a golf skill.  Pin placement maps, yardage books, etc. have eliminated blind shots in essence and have also killed some of the depth perception tricks employed by architects.  Thus course knowledge and prior homework is slightly nullified.

I don't need to see featheries and niblicks but estimating yardage is a skill and the lengthy conversations have slowed down the pro game.  And unfortunately Jimmy Shanks at the local muni is taking his cues from the tour.

I've told this here before but bohica:
Weekend before last I was waiting on the tee on a par five.  An adjoining par five green is just uphill from this tee box.  I hear the approach shot hit the green and bounce off the back.  No more than 25 yards tops off the back of the green.  Tour visor guy (what he was wearing) rolls up in cart, locks the brakes, and cussing, jumps out to survey the damage.  He pulls his trusty bushnell and gets his yardage at all of 25 yards.  I nearly lost my shiz right there on the tee.

View PostNight train, on 28 July 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Reading a green is like judging the wind or trying to decide how much an upslope or downslope affects your yardage. It's part of the skill required to be good at the game. If the books didn't offer an advantage, no one would be using them.

Or is it a perceived advantage that if one guy is using them they must all use it to keep the playing field level in their minds?  Wonder how many times a guy gives that dumb look and arm wave in the opposite direction of the break after missing a putt was the result of that book?

I have always thought that pros shouldn't have access to anything that a weekend golfer doesn't have when showing up at the local muni. Including caddies. No forecaddies either. Let them go find their own ball. ;)

Might be fun to watch. Or not.
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#49 smashdn

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 12:00 PM

View PostNight train, on 30 July 2018 - 04:23 PM, said:

While we're at it............let's do away with drawing lines on the ball for lining up putts! It's an alignment aid and should be banned.

..........and get off my lawn!

I could be wrong but drawing a line on your golf glove is verbodden by the rules.  I seem to recall a Golf Digest tip from way back concerning grip that had pictures with a glove with lines drawn on it in Sharpie.  It had the little disclaimer that doing so was not allowed by the rules.

If you think about it would be darn handy to draw some lines on the grip of your club to open and close the face certain amounts to correspond with certain amounts of cut and draw.

My point, if you can't draw lines on your glove as a reminder for your grip why in the world is drawing a line on a required and regulated by the rules piece of equipment (the ball) be allowed?

Edited by smashdn, 01 August 2018 - 02:26 PM.


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#50 new2g0lf

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 05:03 PM

It's just another unenforceable rule that will be surrounded in controversy.  Breed had a USGA official on this morning, discussing the books and how they plan to inspect each players yardage book at the beginning of a tournament.  Basically golfers will be prohibited from using published books or photocopies taped into their yardage books but they can practice with them.  It will be up to the golfers integrity to ensure anything handwritten into their yardage book does not violate the rule.  

IMHO, it's another stupid rule by the USGA / R&A that can't be properly enforced, won't change scoring and will likely slow down the game even more.

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#51 dlygrisse

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Posted 01 August 2018 - 05:54 PM

Burn the books!  Burn the books!  I want full censorship!  Seeing those contours is golf pornography.  

......anything to speed up play I guess.....I just wish they would make up their minds.

Hogan never had a yardage book and didn't speak to his caddie, just eyeballed everything.  Jack  and Dean Beman started the yardage book craze.  

I say, let them use GPS, lasers, books charts graphs, ouji boards whatever they want, just finish in 4 hours with a 3-some and 3.5 with a 2-some.  

The USGA has turned into a bunch of micro managing, hand wringing, sniveling red tape printing, anal retentive, bureaucrats.  

"Mr. DeShampoo, please let us examine the grooves on those there wedgies, and is that a compass in your pocket or are you just happy to see us?"  "What? is that an encyclopedia in your pocket?  Now, now, there is no time for reading on the golf course, such frivolous activities must only be shared on instagram with your significant other"  

You know what gives the leaders a bigger advantage than anything?  They get to watch the morning groups play the course and see what's going on before they even tee off.  THAT is and advantage, a real advantage.  What are they gonna do, sequester the whole field and not let them watch TV before they tee off?  

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#52 clublender

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 11:21 AM

View Postwrmiller, on 01 August 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postsmashdn, on 30 July 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View Postclublender, on 26 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bryson DeChambeau ran into some trouble recently using a compass on the course. Then Golfweek recently broke the story that beginning January 1, 2019, green-reading books may be outlawed on tour. What should pros be allowed to use to assist their game and what should be banned? Green-reading books? Pin-placement maps? Rangefinders? Carts? Compasses? What's integral to the game and what is just a tool, like a sand wedge, a golf bag and a caddy? Can a golfer use a computer to calculate the best path to sink a putt?

What skills are essential "golf skills" you want to test?  I think it would be interesting to have the guys get their own yardages (by estimating them on course, no markers or sprinkler heads, etc.) as I personally believe that estimating yardage is a golf skill.  Pin placement maps, yardage books, etc. have eliminated blind shots in essence and have also killed some of the depth perception tricks employed by architects.  Thus course knowledge and prior homework is slightly nullified.

I don't need to see featheries and niblicks but estimating yardage is a skill and the lengthy conversations have slowed down the pro game.  And unfortunately Jimmy Shanks at the local muni is taking his cues from the tour.

I've told this here before but bohica:
Weekend before last I was waiting on the tee on a par five.  An adjoining par five green is just uphill from this tee box.  I hear the approach shot hit the green and bounce off the back.  No more than 25 yards tops off the back of the green.  Tour visor guy (what he was wearing) rolls up in cart, locks the brakes, and cussing, jumps out to survey the damage.  He pulls his trusty bushnell and gets his yardage at all of 25 yards.  I nearly lost my shiz right there on the tee.

View PostNight train, on 28 July 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Reading a green is like judging the wind or trying to decide how much an upslope or downslope affects your yardage. It's part of the skill required to be good at the game. If the books didn't offer an advantage, no one would be using them.

Or is it a perceived advantage that if one guy is using them they must all use it to keep the playing field level in their minds?  Wonder how many times a guy gives that dumb look and arm wave in the opposite direction of the break after missing a putt was the result of that book?

I have always thought that pros shouldn't have access to anything that a weekend golfer doesn't have when showing up at the local muni. Including caddies. No forecaddies either. Let them go find their own ball. ;)

Might be fun to watch. Or not.
I wonder how the pros would do playing at some local muni, and NOT Torrey Pines or Bethpage Black: dried out fairways, bumpy greens, uneven and unraked sand traps, divot holes, and tee boxes that look slightly worse than an ill-kept backyard.

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#53 wrmiller

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 11:29 AM

View Postclublender, on 03 August 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

View Postwrmiller, on 01 August 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postsmashdn, on 30 July 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View Postclublender, on 26 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bryson DeChambeau ran into some trouble recently using a compass on the course. Then Golfweek recently broke the story that beginning January 1, 2019, green-reading books may be outlawed on tour. What should pros be allowed to use to assist their game and what should be banned? Green-reading books? Pin-placement maps? Rangefinders? Carts? Compasses? What's integral to the game and what is just a tool, like a sand wedge, a golf bag and a caddy? Can a golfer use a computer to calculate the best path to sink a putt?

What skills are essential "golf skills" you want to test?  I think it would be interesting to have the guys get their own yardages (by estimating them on course, no markers or sprinkler heads, etc.) as I personally believe that estimating yardage is a golf skill.  Pin placement maps, yardage books, etc. have eliminated blind shots in essence and have also killed some of the depth perception tricks employed by architects.  Thus course knowledge and prior homework is slightly nullified.

I don't need to see featheries and niblicks but estimating yardage is a skill and the lengthy conversations have slowed down the pro game.  And unfortunately Jimmy Shanks at the local muni is taking his cues from the tour.

I've told this here before but bohica:
Weekend before last I was waiting on the tee on a par five.  An adjoining par five green is just uphill from this tee box.  I hear the approach shot hit the green and bounce off the back.  No more than 25 yards tops off the back of the green.  Tour visor guy (what he was wearing) rolls up in cart, locks the brakes, and cussing, jumps out to survey the damage.  He pulls his trusty bushnell and gets his yardage at all of 25 yards.  I nearly lost my shiz right there on the tee.

View PostNight train, on 28 July 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Reading a green is like judging the wind or trying to decide how much an upslope or downslope affects your yardage. It's part of the skill required to be good at the game. If the books didn't offer an advantage, no one would be using them.

Or is it a perceived advantage that if one guy is using them they must all use it to keep the playing field level in their minds?  Wonder how many times a guy gives that dumb look and arm wave in the opposite direction of the break after missing a putt was the result of that book?

I have always thought that pros shouldn't have access to anything that a weekend golfer doesn't have when showing up at the local muni. Including caddies. No forecaddies either. Let them go find their own ball. ;)

Might be fun to watch. Or not.
I wonder how the pros would do playing at some local muni, and NOT Torrey Pines or Bethpage Black: dried out fairways, bumpy greens, uneven and unraked sand traps, divot holes, and tee boxes that look slightly worse than an ill-kept backyard.

Those with real skill would do well. Lee Trevino grew up learning golf on ill-kept munis. And that man could work a golf ball.

Not too sure about some of these kids nowadays. But like I said, it could be entertaining to watch. ;)
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#54 smashdn

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 11:53 AM

They have to save a stroke or two by virtue of there being spotters on the course.

I lose balls all the time in the primary cut of rough where I play when you just can't find the ball and you have a group up your butt and you have to keep moving.  I take the penalty too but don't re-tee.

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#55 aliikane

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 01:10 PM

I agree with banning the green reading books. I think the game should put more responsibility on the player to setup and read shots. With that being said, the only thing I think is fine for tournament play is rangefinders w/out slope because it would  speed up the game. Not many courses are marked well,  have accurate yardage markers, and  have yardages of where the pins are placed on the green.


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#56 Roadking2003

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Posted 03 August 2018 - 09:35 PM

View Postaliikane, on 03 August 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

I agree with banning the green reading books. I think the game should put more responsibility on the player to setup and read shots. With that being said, the only thing I think is fine for tournament play is rangefinders w/out slope because it would  speed up the game. Not many courses are marked well,  have accurate yardage markers, and  have yardages of where the pins are placed on the green.

So, reading greens is a necessary skill but estimating yardage is not ????????

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#57 new2g0lf

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Posted 05 August 2018 - 09:08 AM

View Postclublender, on 03 August 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

View Postwrmiller, on 01 August 2018 - 10:59 AM, said:

View Postsmashdn, on 30 July 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

View Postclublender, on 26 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

Bryson DeChambeau ran into some trouble recently using a compass on the course. Then Golfweek recently broke the story that beginning January 1, 2019, green-reading books may be outlawed on tour. What should pros be allowed to use to assist their game and what should be banned? Green-reading books? Pin-placement maps? Rangefinders? Carts? Compasses? What's integral to the game and what is just a tool, like a sand wedge, a golf bag and a caddy? Can a golfer use a computer to calculate the best path to sink a putt?

What skills are essential "golf skills" you want to test?  I think it would be interesting to have the guys get their own yardages (by estimating them on course, no markers or sprinkler heads, etc.) as I personally believe that estimating yardage is a golf skill.  Pin placement maps, yardage books, etc. have eliminated blind shots in essence and have also killed some of the depth perception tricks employed by architects.  Thus course knowledge and prior homework is slightly nullified.

I don't need to see featheries and niblicks but estimating yardage is a skill and the lengthy conversations have slowed down the pro game.  And unfortunately Jimmy Shanks at the local muni is taking his cues from the tour.

I've told this here before but bohica:
Weekend before last I was waiting on the tee on a par five.  An adjoining par five green is just uphill from this tee box.  I hear the approach shot hit the green and bounce off the back.  No more than 25 yards tops off the back of the green.  Tour visor guy (what he was wearing) rolls up in cart, locks the brakes, and cussing, jumps out to survey the damage.  He pulls his trusty bushnell and gets his yardage at all of 25 yards.  I nearly lost my shiz right there on the tee.

View PostNight train, on 28 July 2018 - 07:05 PM, said:

Reading a green is like judging the wind or trying to decide how much an upslope or downslope affects your yardage. It's part of the skill required to be good at the game. If the books didn't offer an advantage, no one would be using them.

Or is it a perceived advantage that if one guy is using them they must all use it to keep the playing field level in their minds?  Wonder how many times a guy gives that dumb look and arm wave in the opposite direction of the break after missing a putt was the result of that book?

I have always thought that pros shouldn't have access to anything that a weekend golfer doesn't have when showing up at the local muni. Including caddies. No forecaddies either. Let them go find their own ball. ;)

Might be fun to watch. Or not.
I wonder how the pros would do playing at some local muni, and NOT Torrey Pines or Bethpage Black: dried out fairways, bumpy greens, uneven and unraked sand traps, divot holes, and tee boxes that look slightly worse than an ill-kept backyard.

They would do better than anyone else would.  They are professional golfers, your statement makes it seem like their abilities are enhanced because they play on well maintained courses.
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#58 gatorMD

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 06:00 PM

any update on this?
http://www.usga.org/...ation-final.pdf

i used one of these today and man i thought it was actually very helpful.....

Edited by gatorMD, 22 November 2018 - 06:04 PM.

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#59 Darth Putter

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 06:21 PM

View PostgatorMD, on 22 November 2018 - 06:00 PM, said:

any update on this?
http://www.usga.org/...ation-final.pdf

i used one of these today and man i thought it was actually very helpful.....


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#60 youraway2

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 06:31 PM

View PostRoadking2003, on 26 July 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

And yet winning scores just don't go down.   But the USGA needs to find a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
I understand your viewpoint, but that's only one.  If I supported your position, and your's is OK, many believe all changes are OK, everything from anchoring, range finders, yardage books, and topical green evaluations, backstopping, etc. As I said, that's OK from your viewpoint.  

But for me, I see the game differently.  I believe in preserving the game. To me technology is destroying the game of golf, oh it might be more fun for some, but they never knew the real game. Play the Ball as you find it, and make a stroke from the tee and strike the ball as many times as it takes until it's holed.  They are the two basic premises to the game.  Preserving the game as I mentioned includes being able to determine the distance with your eyes, selecting the correct club and executing a shot.  No outside assistance, no devices to make calculations or decisions for you, the game must be played by you and only you. I loved the game back then, I can remember striking a shot and wondering how did that come up short or long.  It was usually because a shot I thought was 150, might have been 170 or 140.  My ability to determine the distance was in error.  I could go on into equipment, especially putters, bu we shouldn't beat a dead horse.  So the game has changed and they way we played it is no longer, enough said. Now we must decide if we want it to continue to evolve into something other than what golf was intended to be, for enjoyment, or would we think about preserving the game and maybe returning to the way it was played.  Who's Donald Ross, or Seth Raynor, or some guy named CB.  What's a Redan green?  Oh maybe it doesn't matter, what's important now is our new modernization of the rules, highly technically equipment that enables a better golf swing, technical devices to provide data your eyes couldn't or your feet could not feel.  For me, nothing is more enjoyable than determining the feel of a green with your feet, seeing the break with your eyes and then making the putt, with your abilities.  Or perhaps judging the shot at 125, deciding to hit it 140, since the required shot was uphill and you could feel the wind in your face.  Yes it's all changed now, and yes I have a laser, but for some reason I seldom if ever use it.  Maybe it's perhaps I just like to play the game the old way.  No complaints, some want to grow the game. I want to preserve it and believe the great game I once knew, would have grown the game on it's own.

Edited by youraway2, 23 November 2018 - 08:18 AM.

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