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Kartsten JZ vs Nippon NS Pro Modus3 Tour105 vs Project X 6.0

Iron Shafts

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#1 Drofdarb23

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 07:18 PM

-Currently playing with a set of Ping Eye2s with Ping Karsten JZ shafts.
-Have a co-worker looking to sell some Ping i200s with Nippon NS Pro Modus 3 Tour 105 steel shafts.

Just wondering if/what the major differences are between the two shafts and/or how the Nippons are different?

I found this thread regarding old Ping shafts:"JZ (Regular & Stiff): Weight: 109.8g ®, 115.1g (S) Torque: 1.9 ® 1.7 (S) Description: A mid weight steel shaft that plays a little softer than the Z-Z65 and ZZ-Lite. A very common shaft in Zing, Zing 2, and ISI irons. BallFlight: Due to the mid flex point of this shaft it is designed to hit the ball between the CS-Lite and the Z-Z65." In the same post, the CS-Lite is described as the highest ball flight and Z-Z65 is more of a mid ball flight. http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/68613-ping-jz-shafts/

Looking at the JZ shafts on my Eye2s, I don't see anything that would indicate they are stiff (so more likely the 109.8g?) but then again who knows? EDIT: Based on that old Ping shafts thread, the label is black and red which may indicate stiff and 115g?

Anyway, just hoping to glean some information and how it the different shafts may impact my game/the ball flight before I before I buy them.

Thanks!

Edited by Drofdarb23, 14 July 2018 - 01:40 PM.


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#2 Nessism

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:17 PM

The Nippon's are a good deal lighter.  That's the most impactful difference.
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#3 Drofdarb23

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:47 PM

View PostNessism, on 13 July 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

The Nippon's are a good deal lighter.  That's the most impactful difference.

Is lead tape something you would ever add to the shafts (I'm not even sure where you would add it?) if they feel too light?

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#4 Jagpilotohio

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 10:11 PM

View PostDrofdarb23, on 13 July 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 July 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

The Nippon's are a good deal lighter.  That's the most impactful difference.

Is lead tape something you would ever add to the shafts (I'm not even sure where you would add it?) if they feel too light?

No. It isn’t. Lead tape is for heads to increase swingweight.

Modus is a great shaft.  Dont  overthink it. Just buy them.  Most people won’t notice a shaft being 5 or 6 grams lighter.  Speaking very generally, shafts have to be at least 10 grams heavier or lighter before people can tell they are different....and even if you can tell they are different, it certainly doesn't  mean you will dislike the difference. You may love a lighter shaft.
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#5 Drofdarb23

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:27 PM

View PostJagpilotohio, on 13 July 2018 - 10:11 PM, said:

View PostDrofdarb23, on 13 July 2018 - 09:47 PM, said:

View PostNessism, on 13 July 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

The Nippon's are a good deal lighter.  That's the most impactful difference.

Is lead tape something you would ever add to the shafts (I'm not even sure where you would add it?) if they feel too light?

No. It isn’t. Lead tape is for heads to increase swingweight.

Modus is a great shaft.  Dont  overthink it. Just buy them.  Most people won’t notice a shaft being 5 or 6 grams lighter.  Speaking very generally, shafts have to be at least 10 grams heavier or lighter before people can tell they are different....and even if you can tell they are different, it certainly doesn't  mean you will dislike the difference. You may love a lighter shaft.

Haha this is what I needed to read.

As I understand (I'm a noob when it comes to this stuff), it's a similar (perhaps better) shaft to what's on my Eye2s and the irons themselves will be similar and perhaps more forgiving?

I got "fitted" the other day for Apex CF16s with Project X 6.0 shafts so now I'm in my head about shaft weight, launch, etc. I tend to hit a higher ball which is why I was fitted for the PX 6.0 because it has a lower launch. BUT that fitter didn't have the i200s to demo.. Stopped by a different fitter/repair shop (30+ years experience & clients include at least one current PGA player) today and he said it's unlikely I would notice a huge difference between the modus and PX 6.0.. Then went to Dicks to hit the i200s. Fitter/rep was great, tried to put as similar a shaft to the modus as he could and I don't have any complaints - club felt great, was forgiving, easy to look at and it looked like my normal ball flight (albeit on the LM). He pretty much reiterated what the other guy told me - I'd be spending a few hundred dollars for what would likely only result in a 3-5 yards difference in ball height.

Sounds like I should probably get the clubs and if I can't stand the ball flight, too light or whatever - then look into getting the PX 6.0s put on there.


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#6 Nessism

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 06:43 AM

PX6.0 and Modus 105 S are on different sides of the spectrum; PX6.0 is basically an X-Stiff flex and those 105's are a soft S with an active tip.  Ping lists Modus 105 as one of the higher launching shafts they sell.  Mind you, not everyone notices trajectory differences with iron shafts; depends on your swing.  But still...
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#7 Tommyj

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 07:15 AM

If you got "fit" for PX 6.0 then you'd probably be an X in the Modus 105.

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#8 Drofdarb23

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 11:00 AM

View PostNessism, on 14 July 2018 - 06:43 AM, said:

PX6.0 and Modus 105 S are on different sides of the spectrum; PX6.0 is basically an X-Stiff flex and those 105's are a soft S with an active tip.  Ping lists Modus 105 as one of the higher launching shafts they sell.  Mind you, not everyone notices trajectory differences with iron shafts; depends on your swing.  But still...

I'll need to send them to Ping to have the lie angle adjusted.. do you think I should bite the bullet and see about changing the shafts at the same time? Or just get the lie angle adjusted for now, play the Modus shafts and then decide?

View PostTommyj, on 14 July 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

If you got "fit" for PX 6.0 then you'd probably be an X in the Modus 105.

The Modus' that are on the clubs now are stiff flex, still not the x but not regular either.

Edited by Drofdarb23, 14 July 2018 - 03:09 PM.


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#9 ppl4golf

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 02:41 PM

My iBlade has Modus 3 105 stiff.

Yes, they are light, basically a sub-100g shaft despite the 105 designation. Be about >15g lighter than the like of JZ stiff and even bigger difference if it is a JZ with Cudhin insert.

I think they will play greatest for me if I were to move to a midsize grip thatís 15g heavier.

Modus 3 does perform however...also fairly consistently, which is paramount for a set of irons.
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#10 dmeeksDC

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 08:39 PM

To me these are all 3 very different. The 105 will play the softest, then the JZ. The PX 6.0 will play substantially stiffer than either. To me a PX Rifle 5.0 would be more comparable to those two.

The Modus 105 from the JZ stiff would require the least adjustment. To me the 105 feels nice. It is lighter but still stable. My favorite Nippon is the 125, which is the heavier version of the 105.

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#11 Drofdarb23

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:48 AM

Went back to GG yesterday to hit the i200 demo with the Modus 105 (stiff) vs PX 6.0. The Modus felt light(er) and a little more whippy than I'm used to. Switched to the Project X 6.0 and saw my side spin come down quite a bit (especially on mis-hits) but it felt heavy-ish and VERY stiff (perhaps too stiff).

Having done some more reading/research around here, a few people that were fitted for the Project X 6.0 ended up going with the PX 5.5 because it's both lighter and less stiff. I'm wondering if the PX 5.5 (or even 5.0) might be a better option and/or how noticeably different they are than the 6.0? Golf Galaxy didnt have either of those demo shafts to try for the Ping irons..

Part of my "dilemma" is that I need to send the clubs to ping to have the lie angle adjusted and if I'm thinking about changing shafts, doing it all at the same time seems to make the most sense.

View Postppl4golf, on 15 July 2018 - 02:41 PM, said:

My iBlade has Modus 3 105 stiff.

Yes, they are light, basically a sub-100g shaft despite the 105 designation. Be about >15g lighter than the like of JZ stiff and even bigger difference if it is a JZ with Cudhin insert.

I think they will play greatest for me if I were to move to a midsize grip that's 15g heavier.

Modus 3 does perform however...also fairly consistently, which is paramount for a set of irons.

This brings up another potential "issue". When I got new driver and 3w this Spring, I had them put midsize grips on and I love them. I want to put midsize grips on my irons too but am not sure if/how much does something like this affects the swing weight or if it's something I should even worry about? The regular sized grips on my Eye2s are just a bit too small and force me to grip the club very tight with some finger dig into my palms..

View PostdmeeksDC, on 15 July 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

To me these are all 3 very different. The 105 will play the softest, then the JZ. The PX 6.0 will play substantially stiffer than either. To me a PX Rifle 5.0 would be more comparable to those two.

The Modus 105 from the JZ stiff would require the least adjustment. To me the 105 feels nice. It is lighter but still stable. My favorite Nippon is the 125, which is the heavier version of the 105.

As mentioned above, do you think going to something like Project X 5.5 or 5.0 would be a better option that the 6.0?

Thanks for all the help!

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#12 Tommyj

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 11:33 AM

Have you asked Ping what they would charge to reshaft the i200's?  Unless you are getting a killer deal from your coworker you may be better off just custom ordering i210's with the shaft you want.

Mid size grips typically weigh about 10-12 grams more than standard resulting in your swing weight dropping about 3 points.  The i200's you are looking at with the Modus 105 are probably in the D0-D1 range, Ping always  comes out light unless the previous owner requested a higher SW.  So you'll probably end up around C8 with mid grips.  Of course Ping can adjust the SW when they do the reshafting.  And when you get the total bill for that you'll really ask yourself why you didn't just custom order a new set.

Edited by Tommyj, 16 July 2018 - 11:40 AM.


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#13 Drofdarb23

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 12:47 PM

View PostTommyj, on 16 July 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Have you asked Ping what they would charge to reshaft the i200's?  Unless you are getting a killer deal from your coworker you may be better off just custom ordering i210's with the shaft you want.

Mid size grips typically weigh about 10-12 grams more than standard resulting in your swing weight dropping about 3 points.  The i200's you are looking at with the Modus 105 are probably in the D0-D1 range, Ping always  comes out light unless the previous owner requested a higher SW.  So you'll probably end up around C8 with mid grips.  Of course Ping can adjust the SW when they do the reshafting.  And when you get the total bill for that you'll really ask yourself why you didn't just custom order a new set.


Actually just got off the phone with Ping and you weren't joking. To replace the to PX 5.5 it would be $67.50 per club (or another $500) which pretty much negates any savings from going the used route and I don't have that much extra money sitting around to throw at clubs right now..


I guess I'm left with the following options:
A) Send the clubs to Ping and just have them adjust the lie angle ($30 + taxes + return shipping) and play the Modus3 105 (stiff) shafts for now.
B) Use my $250 in gift cards to buy the PX 5.5 or 5.0 from Dicks/Golf Galaxy (~$40 per shaft) and have them do the install (I think it's free when you buy the shafts from them - so only ~$100 out of pocket). Although I'm not sure if having someone besides Ping do this affects the clubs' warranty? I'm thinking if they're re-doing the shaft, they could also adjust the lie angle too?

Or C) Do A and B in reverse order - have GG change the shafts and then send the clubs to Ping to have the lie angle adjusted. Although again, I'm not sure how/what this would do to the warranty of the clubs since they have serial numbers, etc. and Ping would surely notice that the shafts aren't original..? Or as mentioned for option B, have GG adjust the lie angle when they change the shafts and forget about the warranty? I've had zero issues with my Eye2s but haven't changed a thing about them since I got them.

This has been QUITE the learning experience..

Appreciate all the help

EDIT/UPDATE: Dicks/Golf Galaxy charges $28 remove old/install new shaft so pretty much the same as it would cost to buy from Ping and have them do it.

New plan (D, I suppose) is to send clubs to ping to have lie angle adjusted, put some midsize grips on there, take them out and see how they play.. If I'm all over the place, ball is ballooning or whatever - maybe I'll look into changing the shafts in the Fall or Spring.

Lessons learned (so far) from this experience:
-If you're impatient (like me... :D) and want a specific set up, custom order will get you what you want for basically the same price as trying to build a custom used set of clubs (HT Tommyj).
-If you're actually looking to save money buying a used set of clubs, wait for the exact version of a used club/shaft that you're looking for. Or I guess on the other hand, if you find a good deal on used clubs that's close enough to what you're looking for - accept that they may not be "perfect" (and that you probably aren't as good at golf as you think (yes, I'm talking to myself)) and get out there and have some fun.

Having waded into a world of golf I barely knew existed, I hope I can still stand over a ball without thinking about 26,391 things and hit the damn thing :)


Again, I appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to my idiotic questions and erratic behavior.

Edited by Drofdarb23, 16 July 2018 - 03:14 PM.


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#14 ppl4golf

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 02:40 PM

After years of shafting/reshafting, bending clubs way too upright because I was still toe scraping...big money wasted, perfect good clubs damaged because of the modifications...

At the end of the day, it all comes down to a couple of simple laws :

1. A cheap ho is always a good ho (in your case, yes, play the i200 as is without incurring extra costs, I wonít be surprised you will shoot some career rounds right from the start 😂)

2. A good enough player can pretty much play anything, just donít be grossly out of specs because severe adjustment/adaptation may lead to bad habits.

3. You (I mean ĎIí) donít know $hit about clubs...donít assume you (I mean ĎIí) know what youíre talking about LOL
Play them to find out...the more exposure/hoíing opportunities the better (that brings back to Rule #1 LOL)

Edited by ppl4golf, 17 July 2018 - 09:19 PM.

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Driver : TM SLDR460 10.5° Speeder 65
4-Wood : Adams XTD Ti 16.5° Red Tie
3-Hybrid : Adams XTD DHy Proto 21° White Tie
4-Hybrid : Adams XTD DHy Proto 24° White Tie
5-PW,GW : Adams XTD Forged C-Taper 120
Wedge(s) : Titleist Vokey SM2 54° & 60° Dynamic Gold
Putter : Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Blade

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#15 ppl4golf

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 03:00 PM

View PostTommyj, on 16 July 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

Have you asked Ping what they would charge to reshaft the i200's?  Unless you are getting a killer deal from your coworker you may be better off just custom ordering i210's with the shaft you want.

Mid size grips typically weigh about 10-12 grams more than standard resulting in your swing weight dropping about 3 points.  The i200's you are looking at with the Modus 105 are probably in the D0-D1 range, Ping always  comes out light unless the previous owner requested a higher SW.  So you'll probably end up around C8 with mid grips.  Of course Ping can adjust the SW when they do the reshafting.  And when you get the total bill for that you'll really ask yourself why you didn't just custom order a new set.

Adding extra weight to the grip and then add extra weight to the club head in attempt to get to the original swing weight is a bit backward thinking and the chance for it to work is not high (unless the original config is grossly wrong...eg  being too light).

The static weight is a much bigger factor in playability.

All LH :

Driver : TM SLDR460 10.5° Speeder 65
4-Wood : Adams XTD Ti 16.5° Red Tie
3-Hybrid : Adams XTD DHy Proto 21° White Tie
4-Hybrid : Adams XTD DHy Proto 24° White Tie
5-PW,GW : Adams XTD Forged C-Taper 120
Wedge(s) : Titleist Vokey SM2 54° & 60° Dynamic Gold
Putter : Odyssey White Hot 2-Ball Blade

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#16 Drofdarb23

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 03:34 PM

View Postppl4golf, on 16 July 2018 - 02:40 PM, said:

After years of shafting/reshafting, bending clubs way too upright because I was still too scraping...big money wasted, perfect good clubs damaged because of the modifications...

At the end of the day, it all comes down to a couple of simple laws :

1. A cheap ho is always a good ho (in your case, yes, play the i200 as is without incurring extra costs, I won't be surprised you will shoot some career rounds right from the start ��)

2. A good enough player can pretty much play anything, just don't be grossly out of specs because severe adjustment/adaptation may lead to bad habits.

3. You (I mean 'I') don't know $hit about clubs...don't assume you (I mean 'I') know what you're talking about LOL
Play them to find out...the more exposure/ho'ing opportunities the better (that brings back to Rule #1 LOL)

This is some solid advice - too bad I'm always trying to outsmart myself...

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#17 Nessism

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:15 PM

Despite what Ping may lead you to believe, there is no need to send clubs in to them to do a simple loft/lie adjustment.

And one tidbit of advice that rings true more times than not: learning how to reshaft clubs will open a whole new world of ho'dome.  Buy clubs without concern about the shafts and reshaft to your heart's content.  You will learn alot along the way.  A swingweight scale, proper club length ruler, grip tape and solvent, ferrules, tip weights, epoxy, and have at it.  Sell the old pulls to pay for shafts that fit you better.  All the tools combined will still be cheaper than one reshaft the likes of sending to Ping will cost.
Ping G400 driver w/Adila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
TEE XCG6 3 & 5 fairway woods & E8 hybrid
Mizuno Hot Metal irons w/Recoil 95's
Glide 50/55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110's
Ping Anser putter - the "real deal!"

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#18 Tommyj

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 04:20 AM

I like your plan D.  Do your lie angle adjustment and then see how you adapt to the Modus shaft over time.  I think you'll really end up liking it.

And Nessism makes a great point about learning to reshaft your clubs.  Small up front investment, easy to learn and very useful when you see how cheap used sets of iron shafts are.  Don't be afraid to try it, there's not much you can do wrong when reshafting irons with steel shafts.

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#19 Drofdarb23

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 11:16 AM

View PostNessism, on 16 July 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

Despite what Ping may lead you to believe, there is no need to send clubs in to them to do a simple loft/lie adjustment.

And one tidbit of advice that rings true more times than not: learning how to reshaft clubs will open a whole new world of ho'dome.  Buy clubs without concern about the shafts and reshaft to your heart's content.  You will learn alot along the way.  A swingweight scale, proper club length ruler, grip tape and solvent, ferrules, tip weights, epoxy, and have at it.  Sell the old pulls to pay for shafts that fit you better.  All the tools combined will still be cheaper than one reshaft the likes of sending to Ping will cost.

View PostTommyj, on 17 July 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

I like your plan D.  Do your lie angle adjustment and then see how you adapt to the Modus shaft over time.  I think you'll really end up liking it.

And Nessism makes a great point about learning to reshaft your clubs.  Small up front investment, easy to learn and very useful when you see how cheap used sets of iron shafts are.  Don't be afraid to try it, there's not much you can do wrong when reshafting irons with steel shafts.

It hadn't even crossed my mind to try and do it myself. How/where would you say the best place is to find used iron shafts - eBay, BST forum, other? Also, how/where does one acquire necessary tools for reshafting clubs (swing weight scale, club length ruler, grip tape, etc.)?

And last question - the i200s came with oversized Lamkin grips. I figured they would had standard grips on them and was going to put midsize grips on them. Probably makes the most sense to just roll with the oversized grips for now and if they're too big, swap them out?

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#20 Tommyj

Tommyj

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 02:48 PM

View PostDrofdarb23, on 18 July 2018 - 11:16 AM, said:

View PostNessism, on 16 July 2018 - 04:15 PM, said:

Despite what Ping may lead you to believe, there is no need to send clubs in to them to do a simple loft/lie adjustment.

And one tidbit of advice that rings true more times than not: learning how to reshaft clubs will open a whole new world of ho'dome.  Buy clubs without concern about the shafts and reshaft to your heart's content.  You will learn alot along the way.  A swingweight scale, proper club length ruler, grip tape and solvent, ferrules, tip weights, epoxy, and have at it.  Sell the old pulls to pay for shafts that fit you better.  All the tools combined will still be cheaper than one reshaft the likes of sending to Ping will cost.

View PostTommyj, on 17 July 2018 - 04:20 AM, said:

I like your plan D.  Do your lie angle adjustment and then see how you adapt to the Modus shaft over time.  I think you'll really end up liking it.

And Nessism makes a great point about learning to reshaft your clubs.  Small up front investment, easy to learn and very useful when you see how cheap used sets of iron shafts are.  Don't be afraid to try it, there's not much you can do wrong when reshafting irons with steel shafts.

It hadn't even crossed my mind to try and do it myself. How/where would you say the best place is to find used iron shafts - eBay, BST forum, other? Also, how/where does one acquire necessary tools for reshafting clubs (swing weight scale, club length ruler, grip tape, etc.)?

And last question - the i200s came with oversized Lamkin grips. I figured they would had standard grips on them and was going to put midsize grips on them. Probably makes the most sense to just roll with the oversized grips for now and if they're too big, swap them out?

Once you figure out what shaft you want just keep on scanning BST and see if a set pops up.  Or you can post that you are looking for something specific.  You can also check eBay and any local classifieds for your area.  I get most of my supplies from Golfworks.  They have some good info on their website for people who are new to club making.  For Ping irons you'll need a specific ferrule to keep the shaft centred, pretty sure Golfworks sells those.  And keep in mind that Ping irons take a .355" (taper tip) shaft.

Regarding grips, I don't know how big your hands are.  My grips are +1/32, so I could make do with mid size (+1/16), but no way would I play oversize (+1/8).  But you have to decide for yourself, test them and see what you think.  Also, oversize weigh even more than mid and will obviously further reduce your swing weight.

Edited by Tommyj, 18 July 2018 - 02:54 PM.


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