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Sei Young Kim's Driver Used to win last week


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#1 gunmetal

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 12:37 AM

Original SLDR which is about 5 years old this month. Thought that was interesting. And quite telling in a way. Incidentally she broke the lpga scoring victory for a tournament at -31. She must not need all of the performance gains the newer drivers obviously would give her.


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#2 MelloYello

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 07:16 AM

Dude, I watched that tournament!. She was on fire over the weekend. It's was ludicrous how much better she was than people who were themselves beating up the course and shooting 15-under, LOL. It was insane.

SYK does that though. She catches fire certain weeks and just can't be caught. You can sense it when it's starting to happen. I am glad she was able to hang on and not falter towards the end. It was amazing to see someone do that.

The LPGA isn't as OCD with equipment as the PGA (and not nearly GolfWRX, haha).

Isn't Ariya still pounding that same Aeroburner 3w?

Edited by MelloYello, 12 July 2018 - 07:17 AM.

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#3 gunmetal

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 04:47 PM

 MelloYello, on 12 July 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

Dude, I watched that tournament!. She was on fire over the weekend. It's was ludicrous how much better she was than people who were themselves beating up the course and shooting 15-under, LOL. It was insane.

SYK does that though. She catches fire certain weeks and just can't be caught. You can sense it when it's starting to happen. I am glad she was able to hang on and not falter towards the end. It was amazing to see someone do that.

The LPGA isn't as OCD with equipment as the PGA (and not nearly GolfWRX, haha).

Isn't Ariya still pounding that same Aeroburner 3w?

Right. And I don't care where the pins were located. -31 is -31. Long live SLDR, lol!

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#4 Sean2

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 04:59 PM

Steve Stricker uses a Titleist driver that came out in 2010, and there are many other stores of players using "old" equipment. They are smart enough to play what works for them, and realize that newer isn't always better.
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#5 Valtiel

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 05:41 PM

 gunmetal, on 12 July 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

She must not need all of the performance gains the newer drivers obviously would give her.

Sarcasm aside, there have been significant gains since the SLDR, just not in relation to potential spin reduction which if you've grooved your strike point on the face means that your sarcasm is actually correct; she would not need the performance gains that other drivers would provide. An SLDR struck properly (high) that is properly fitted would be one of the longest, if not THE longest drivers still out there due to its ability to murder spin rates (Low MOI). That same low MOI makes it the bad kind of murder when mishit, but if you're consistent enough then that wouldn't matter. Fred Couples is still using an SLDR too I believe.

Edited by Valtiel, 12 July 2018 - 05:41 PM.

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#6 nohny noke

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 06:02 PM

The bad kind of murder...lol...I like that usage.

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#7 kiw1982

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:07 PM

I am so glad that she won and made a record!

But, when I followed her group like 2 yrs ago at Kinsmill, her driving was horrible. The misses were so bad.

I had 3 SLDR and still it has my longest record. When I am on fire, I can tear the course apart but that was rare. lol
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#8 andrieddle

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 01:21 AM

the ladies are the best chance to look at JDM clubs....they're just solid
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#9 gunmetal

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:10 AM

 kiw1982, on 12 July 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

I am so glad that she won and made a record!

But, when I followed her group like 2 yrs ago at Kinsmill, her driving was horrible. The misses were so bad.

I had 3 SLDR and still it has my longest record. When I am on fire, I can tear the course apart but that was rare. lol

That's the trade off with SLDR - the misses are awful. And what Valtiel was alluding to when he/she said "there have been significant gains since the SLDR." While I don't totally agree with that, there has been some improvement on ball speed on off center hits, though I don't think it's tangible on the course. Possibly measurable in a dry fitting.

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#10 gunmetal

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:27 AM

 Valtiel, on 12 July 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

 gunmetal, on 12 July 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

She must not need all of the performance gains the newer drivers obviously would give her.

Sarcasm aside, there have been significant gains since the SLDR, just not in relation to potential spin reduction which if you've grooved your strike point on the face means that your sarcasm is actually correct; she would not need the performance gains that other drivers would provide. An SLDR struck properly (high) that is properly fitted would be one of the longest, if not THE longest drivers still out there due to its ability to murder spin rates (Low MOI). That same low MOI makes it the bad kind of murder when mishit, but if you're consistent enough then that wouldn't matter. Fred Couples is still using an SLDR too I believe.

Well even the best players in the world don't strike it perfectly every time so whatever performance gains (slightly faster ball speeds outside the center of the face???) the new models offer, it clearly doesn't offset or compensate for the loss of distance she would be sacrificing. We also need to remember that faster ball speeds outside of the middle usually just means that the ball goes a bit farther offline for most of us. The data doesn't lie. Driving distances have been flat for the past 10 years on the PGA tour - never varying year to year more than a few yards. Driving accuracy is also the same over the past 10 years always around 75% for the best. You are right that there are performance gains being made. They're just tiny and incremental and only show up in a laboratory - not on the course. Clearly. Most pros (not Striker or Kim) switch for the same reason we go through gear - we're looking for something different. Mentally that can be all it takes to get us out of a funk (and there's NOTHING wrong with that). There's also that seven figure number many of these guys are getting to rep the product, too. That kinda helps them want to put it in the bag.


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#11 Valtiel

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 04:04 PM

 gunmetal, on 13 July 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

 Valtiel, on 12 July 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

 gunmetal, on 12 July 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

She must not need all of the performance gains the newer drivers obviously would give her.

Sarcasm aside, there have been significant gains since the SLDR, just not in relation to potential spin reduction which if you've grooved your strike point on the face means that your sarcasm is actually correct; she would not need the performance gains that other drivers would provide. An SLDR struck properly (high) that is properly fitted would be one of the longest, if not THE longest drivers still out there due to its ability to murder spin rates (Low MOI). That same low MOI makes it the bad kind of murder when mishit, but if you're consistent enough then that wouldn't matter. Fred Couples is still using an SLDR too I believe.

Well even the best players in the world don't strike it perfectly every time so whatever performance gains (slightly faster ball speeds outside the center of the face???) the new models offer, it clearly doesn't offset or compensate for the loss of distance she would be sacrificing. We also need to remember that faster ball speeds outside of the middle usually just means that the ball goes a bit farther offline for most of us. The data doesn't lie. Driving distances have been flat for the past 10 years on the PGA tour - never varying year to year more than a few yards. Driving accuracy is also the same over the past 10 years always around 75% for the best. You are right that there are performance gains being made. They're just tiny and incremental and only show up in a laboratory - not on the course. Clearly. Most pros (not Striker or Kim) switch for the same reason we go through gear - we're looking for something different. Mentally that can be all it takes to get us out of a funk (and there's NOTHING wrong with that). There's also that seven figure number many of these guys are getting to rep the product, too. That kinda helps them want to put it in the bag.

I definitely agree with the mental component, lord knows lots more pros would likely stick with older equipment if it weren't for contracts.

But its important to understand the little box that contains all the potential performance a driver can have based on restrictions and how this all relates to pros vs. amateurs. We have head size (460cc), COR (.830), MOI (5900), and CG location. Most of the performance gains are geared towards the amateurs with things like variable face thicknesses for ball speeds on mishits, higher MOI for accuracy on mishits, and CG location for strike location optimized launch conditions. The most important thing to recognize is that these aren't all "sliders" that can continually be pushed higher and higher to make a "better" driver. Raising MOI increases forgiveness but takes away the spin reduction potential of optimized strikes (slightly high and slightly toe side). Lowering MOI maximizes potential spin reduction on optimized strikes while sacrificing performance and accuracy on non-optimized strikes. Shrinking head size tends to facilitate lower potential MOI. Raising CG creates more face real estate below the sweet spot which raises spin, lowering CG does the reverse.

So its a balancing act that all in all is less important to the pros who may not  hit it perfectly every time but they sure are darn close. When we speak of performance gains it is typically around less than optimal scenarios, this is why the G400 Max is such a popular driver as it is the highest MOI production driver on the market without being square! This is a very big gain for the average player and really only a small and largely psychological one for the pro. The same goes for all the customization options. Pros have long had access to the types of services that are now widely available on the clubs themselves (moveable weights, adjustable hosels etc) which was a HUGE gain for the amateur but didn't really matter for the pro because they could always have things bent and hotmelted.

Edited by Valtiel, 13 July 2018 - 04:05 PM.

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#12 gunmetal

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 12:58 PM

 Valtiel, on 13 July 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

 gunmetal, on 13 July 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

 Valtiel, on 12 July 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

 gunmetal, on 12 July 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

She must not need all of the performance gains the newer drivers obviously would give her.

Sarcasm aside, there have been significant gains since the SLDR, just not in relation to potential spin reduction which if you've grooved your strike point on the face means that your sarcasm is actually correct; she would not need the performance gains that other drivers would provide. An SLDR struck properly (high) that is properly fitted would be one of the longest, if not THE longest drivers still out there due to its ability to murder spin rates (Low MOI). That same low MOI makes it the bad kind of murder when mishit, but if you're consistent enough then that wouldn't matter. Fred Couples is still using an SLDR too I believe.

Well even the best players in the world don't strike it perfectly every time so whatever performance gains (slightly faster ball speeds outside the center of the face???) the new models offer, it clearly doesn't offset or compensate for the loss of distance she would be sacrificing. We also need to remember that faster ball speeds outside of the middle usually just means that the ball goes a bit farther offline for most of us. The data doesn't lie. Driving distances have been flat for the past 10 years on the PGA tour - never varying year to year more than a few yards. Driving accuracy is also the same over the past 10 years always around 75% for the best. You are right that there are performance gains being made. They're just tiny and incremental and only show up in a laboratory - not on the course. Clearly. Most pros (not Striker or Kim) switch for the same reason we go through gear - we're looking for something different. Mentally that can be all it takes to get us out of a funk (and there's NOTHING wrong with that). There's also that seven figure number many of these guys are getting to rep the product, too. That kinda helps them want to put it in the bag.

I definitely agree with the mental component, lord knows lots more pros would likely stick with older equipment if it weren't for contracts.

But its important to understand the little box that contains all the potential performance a driver can have based on restrictions and how this all relates to pros vs. amateurs. We have head size (460cc), COR (.830), MOI (5900), and CG location. Most of the performance gains are geared towards the amateurs with things like variable face thicknesses for ball speeds on mishits, higher MOI for accuracy on mishits, and CG location for strike location optimized launch conditions. The most important thing to recognize is that these aren't all "sliders" that can continually be pushed higher and higher to make a "better" driver. Raising MOI increases forgiveness but takes away the spin reduction potential of optimized strikes (slightly high and slightly toe side). Lowering MOI maximizes potential spin reduction on optimized strikes while sacrificing performance and accuracy on non-optimized strikes. Shrinking head size tends to facilitate lower potential MOI. Raising CG creates more face real estate below the sweet spot which raises spin, lowering CG does the reverse.

So its a balancing act that all in all is less important to the pros who may not  hit it perfectly every time but they sure are darn close. When we speak of performance gains it is typically around less than optimal scenarios, this is why the G400 Max is such a popular driver as it is the highest MOI production driver on the market without being square! This is a very big gain for the average player and really only a small and largely psychological one for the pro. The same goes for all the customization options. Pros have long had access to the types of services that are now widely available on the clubs themselves (moveable weights, adjustable hosels etc) which was a HUGE gain for the amateur but didn't really matter for the pro because they could always have things bent and hotmelted.

Totally agree. However, some, if not most, of the time more "forgiveness" on off center hits isn't always great for amateurs as it has very little, if anything, to do with direction. It simply means they hit it further offline, lol. But yes, you are spot on about give and take and in regards specifically to the G400 Max and MOI that is a big deal to the average golfer.

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#13 Gilmore-Happy

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 03:01 PM

 kiw1982, on 12 July 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

I am so glad that she won and made a record!

But, when I followed her group like 2 yrs ago at Kinsmill, her driving was horrible. The misses were so bad.

I had 3 SLDR and still it has my longest record. When I am on fire, I can tear the course apart but that was rare. lol

Same here. Some days I had no problem hitting fairways and hitting absolute BOMBS. Then there were those days I never hit a single fairway and found myself OB off the tee most of the time. By far the most "risk reward" type driver I have ever hit.

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#14 Valtiel

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 03:45 PM

 gunmetal, on 17 July 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

 Valtiel, on 13 July 2018 - 04:04 PM, said:

 gunmetal, on 13 July 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

 Valtiel, on 12 July 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

 gunmetal, on 12 July 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

She must not need all of the performance gains the newer drivers obviously would give her.

Sarcasm aside, there have been significant gains since the SLDR, just not in relation to potential spin reduction which if you've grooved your strike point on the face means that your sarcasm is actually correct; she would not need the performance gains that other drivers would provide. An SLDR struck properly (high) that is properly fitted would be one of the longest, if not THE longest drivers still out there due to its ability to murder spin rates (Low MOI). That same low MOI makes it the bad kind of murder when mishit, but if you're consistent enough then that wouldn't matter. Fred Couples is still using an SLDR too I believe.

Well even the best players in the world don't strike it perfectly every time so whatever performance gains (slightly faster ball speeds outside the center of the face???) the new models offer, it clearly doesn't offset or compensate for the loss of distance she would be sacrificing. We also need to remember that faster ball speeds outside of the middle usually just means that the ball goes a bit farther offline for most of us. The data doesn't lie. Driving distances have been flat for the past 10 years on the PGA tour - never varying year to year more than a few yards. Driving accuracy is also the same over the past 10 years always around 75% for the best. You are right that there are performance gains being made. They're just tiny and incremental and only show up in a laboratory - not on the course. Clearly. Most pros (not Striker or Kim) switch for the same reason we go through gear - we're looking for something different. Mentally that can be all it takes to get us out of a funk (and there's NOTHING wrong with that). There's also that seven figure number many of these guys are getting to rep the product, too. That kinda helps them want to put it in the bag.

I definitely agree with the mental component, lord knows lots more pros would likely stick with older equipment if it weren't for contracts.

But its important to understand the little box that contains all the potential performance a driver can have based on restrictions and how this all relates to pros vs. amateurs. We have head size (460cc), COR (.830), MOI (5900), and CG location. Most of the performance gains are geared towards the amateurs with things like variable face thicknesses for ball speeds on mishits, higher MOI for accuracy on mishits, and CG location for strike location optimized launch conditions. The most important thing to recognize is that these aren't all "sliders" that can continually be pushed higher and higher to make a "better" driver. Raising MOI increases forgiveness but takes away the spin reduction potential of optimized strikes (slightly high and slightly toe side). Lowering MOI maximizes potential spin reduction on optimized strikes while sacrificing performance and accuracy on non-optimized strikes. Shrinking head size tends to facilitate lower potential MOI. Raising CG creates more face real estate below the sweet spot which raises spin, lowering CG does the reverse.

So its a balancing act that all in all is less important to the pros who may not  hit it perfectly every time but they sure are darn close. When we speak of performance gains it is typically around less than optimal scenarios, this is why the G400 Max is such a popular driver as it is the highest MOI production driver on the market without being square! This is a very big gain for the average player and really only a small and largely psychological one for the pro. The same goes for all the customization options. Pros have long had access to the types of services that are now widely available on the clubs themselves (moveable weights, adjustable hosels etc) which was a HUGE gain for the amateur but didn't really matter for the pro because they could always have things bent and hotmelted.

Totally agree. However, some, if not most, of the time more "forgiveness" on off center hits isn't always great for amateurs as it has very little, if anything, to do with direction. It simply means they hit it further offline, lol. But yes, you are spot on about give and take and in regards specifically to the G400 Max and MOI that is a big deal to the average golfer.

That depends, when I say "forgiveness" i'm referring to "reduction in gear effect on off center hits" which translates to less hook on toe hits, less slice on heel hits, and less spin increase on low hits. When you start playing the game of millimeters when it comes to your actual strike location this translates in to tighter dispersion and better overall shots. More forgiveness does not usually mean "further in the wrong direction" unless the person is actually aiming the driver in the wrong direction in which case I agree, but no driver is going to be able to compensate for that. :D

In a way the whole Taylormade Twist Face concept is trying to accomplish the same thing that higher MOI accomplishes. Instead of decreasing the gear effect on off center hits they are simply using a different bulge and roll to to start the ball further in the opposite direction that the gear effects want to start the ball. Different means of achieving a similar goal, however one of the other benefits of higher MOI that wouldn't be captured by this is the feel component. The higher the MOI, the slower the clubhead twists on off center hits and this translates to less feeling of torque in the hands.
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#15 gunmetal

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 06:10 PM

 Valtiel, on 17 July 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:


That depends, when I say "forgiveness" i'm referring to "reduction in gear effect on off center hits" which translates to less hook on toe hits, less slice on heel hits, and less spin increase on low hits. When you start playing the game of millimeters when it comes to your actual strike location this translates in to tighter dispersion and better overall shots. More forgiveness does not usually mean "further in the wrong direction" unless the person is actually aiming the driver in the wrong direction in which case I agree, but no driver is going to be able to compensate for that. :D

In a way the whole Taylormade Twist Face concept is trying to accomplish the same thing that higher MOI accomplishes. Instead of decreasing the gear effect on off center hits they are simply using a different bulge and roll to to start the ball further in the opposite direction that the gear effects want to start the ball. Different means of achieving a similar goal, however one of the other benefits of higher MOI that wouldn't be captured by this is the feel component. The higher the MOI, the slower the clubhead twists on off center hits and this translates to less feeling of torque in the hands.

OK, but TM's implementation of "Twist Face" is FAR more a marketing pitch than it is tangible help the average consumer will notice.  I'm an 8 who is basically helpless with a driver in my hand. I demo'd all of the M3 and M4's hoping for a miracle and was just as terrible as ever off the tee. We both know bulge and roll have been around since forever. Wishon eliminated roll with its 515 GRT over 10 years ago to improve consistency on launch conditions. I saw more results with that than TM's attempt to modify bulge. Taylormade tweaking bulge and calling it revolutionary really is as pathetic as Callaway saying you'll get Epic distance gains over GBB Alpha 816.  And now you can even go Rogue for more distance. Dustin Johnson's driving accuracy was 56% last year and 58% this year. Rahm was 58% last, 59% this year - hardly revolutionary. Bottom line is what Schiels and Crossfield preach and demonstrate time and time again - strike is king and the golfer, not the equipment, is 90%+ responsible for strike. Fitting is critical, but people shouldn't be expecting miracles when they buy the latest and greatest.


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#16 4rheel

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 06:23 PM

No mention of the UST Mamiya ATTAS 3 shaft she was using?  Probably one of the straightest hitting shafts I ever owned.

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#17 gunmetal

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 12:18 PM

 4rheel, on 17 July 2018 - 06:23 PM, said:

No mention of the UST Mamiya ATTAS 3 shaft she was using?  Probably one of the straightest hitting shafts I ever owned.

100%

Still have one in my 5 wood. One of the rare shafts that performs as good if not better than it looks.

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#18 Davidv

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 04:39 PM

I guess it is as simple as whatever works for you and gives you the results you want.

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#19 larciel

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 11:25 PM

I am going back to my beloved supertri when titleist releases ts2.

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#20 Valtiel

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Posted 21 July 2018 - 06:09 PM

 gunmetal, on 17 July 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

 Valtiel, on 17 July 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

That depends, when I say "forgiveness" i'm referring to "reduction in gear effect on off center hits" which translates to less hook on toe hits, less slice on heel hits, and less spin increase on low hits. When you start playing the game of millimeters when it comes to your actual strike location this translates in to tighter dispersion and better overall shots. More forgiveness does not usually mean "further in the wrong direction" unless the person is actually aiming the driver in the wrong direction in which case I agree, but no driver is going to be able to compensate for that. :D

In a way the whole Taylormade Twist Face concept is trying to accomplish the same thing that higher MOI accomplishes. Instead of decreasing the gear effect on off center hits they are simply using a different bulge and roll to to start the ball further in the opposite direction that the gear effects want to start the ball. Different means of achieving a similar goal, however one of the other benefits of higher MOI that wouldn't be captured by this is the feel component. The higher the MOI, the slower the clubhead twists on off center hits and this translates to less feeling of torque in the hands.

OK, but TM's implementation of "Twist Face" is FAR more a marketing pitch than it is tangible help the average consumer will notice.  I'm an 8 who is basically helpless with a driver in my hand. I demo'd all of the M3 and M4's hoping for a miracle and was just as terrible as ever off the tee. We both know bulge and roll have been around since forever. Wishon eliminated roll with its 515 GRT over 10 years ago to improve consistency on launch conditions. I saw more results with that than TM's attempt to modify bulge. Taylormade tweaking bulge and calling it revolutionary really is as pathetic as Callaway saying you'll get Epic distance gains over GBB Alpha 816.  And now you can even go Rogue for more distance. Dustin Johnson's driving accuracy was 56% last year and 58% this year. Rahm was 58% last, 59% this year - hardly revolutionary. Bottom line is what Schiels and Crossfield preach and demonstrate time and time again - strike is king and the golfer, not the equipment, is 90%+ responsible for strike. Fitting is critical, but people shouldn't be expecting miracles when they buy the latest and greatest.

I don't disagree regarding the marketing, I think its a fairly simple idea that is not likely to make much of a difference and is certainly not revolutionary. However DJ/Rahms driving accuracy is not a good measure of anything here as they are not slapping it off the toe/heel in the way the average golfer would be which is what the concept is meant to help address.

Regarding the Callaway drivers, that is a completely different story and should not be lumped in with the Taylormade discussion. The GBB 815 and 816 were pretty unforgiving (lower MOI) and somewhat high CG drivers. This is a recipe for feast and famine when it comes to driver performance; strike it high on the face and you get bombs, strike it even slightly low and it will spin up and loose distance. It seems clear to me that they were riding on a bit of the SLDR formula here whereas the Sub Zeroes (XR16, Epic, Rogue) has been both MUCH more forgiving in terms of MOI which will make for more consistent distance across the face but also much lower CG which makes for more feast and less famine when it comes to spin reduction. I would say those drivers were a legit step forward from the previous GBB models.

Edited by Valtiel, 21 July 2018 - 06:10 PM.

Posted Image M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX || Posted Image 915D3 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 80x
Posted Image Tour Issue SQ2 13* Blueboard 83x
Posted Image Tour Issue SQ2 17* Blueboard 103x || Posted Image SQ2 15* Blueboard 93x

Posted Image Anser 20* Aldila Rogue Black 110MSI 105h Tour-X || Posted Image V-Steel 21* Project X Rifle Satin 6.5
Posted Image MP-H4 3i 21* Project X PXi 7.0
Posted Image MP-H4 4i 24*
Project X PXi 7.0
Posted Image MP-59 4i-PW 27*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image SM6 58* K-Grind Brunswick Precision R
ifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image Special 62* V-Grind Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3 SSx2
Posted Image Santa Fe Bullseye shaft

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#21 denvergolf

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Posted Yesterday, 06:17 PM

View PostValtiel, on 21 July 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

View Postgunmetal, on 17 July 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 17 July 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

That depends, when I say "forgiveness" i'm referring to "reduction in gear effect on off center hits" which translates to less hook on toe hits, less slice on heel hits, and less spin increase on low hits. When you start playing the game of millimeters when it comes to your actual strike location this translates in to tighter dispersion and better overall shots. More forgiveness does not usually mean "further in the wrong direction" unless the person is actually aiming the driver in the wrong direction in which case I agree, but no driver is going to be able to compensate for that. :D

In a way the whole Taylormade Twist Face concept is trying to accomplish the same thing that higher MOI accomplishes. Instead of decreasing the gear effect on off center hits they are simply using a different bulge and roll to to start the ball further in the opposite direction that the gear effects want to start the ball. Different means of achieving a similar goal, however one of the other benefits of higher MOI that wouldn't be captured by this is the feel component. The higher the MOI, the slower the clubhead twists on off center hits and this translates to less feeling of torque in the hands.

OK, but TM's implementation of "Twist Face" is FAR more a marketing pitch than it is tangible help the average consumer will notice.  I'm an 8 who is basically helpless with a driver in my hand. I demo'd all of the M3 and M4's hoping for a miracle and was just as terrible as ever off the tee. We both know bulge and roll have been around since forever. Wishon eliminated roll with its 515 GRT over 10 years ago to improve consistency on launch conditions. I saw more results with that than TM's attempt to modify bulge. Taylormade tweaking bulge and calling it revolutionary really is as pathetic as Callaway saying you'll get Epic distance gains over GBB Alpha 816.  And now you can even go Rogue for more distance. Dustin Johnson's driving accuracy was 56% last year and 58% this year. Rahm was 58% last, 59% this year - hardly revolutionary. Bottom line is what Schiels and Crossfield preach and demonstrate time and time again - strike is king and the golfer, not the equipment, is 90%+ responsible for strike. Fitting is critical, but people shouldn't be expecting miracles when they buy the latest and greatest.

I don't disagree regarding the marketing, I think its a fairly simple idea that is not likely to make much of a difference and is certainly not revolutionary. However DJ/Rahms driving accuracy is not a good measure of anything here as they are not slapping it off the toe/heel in the way the average golfer would be which is what the concept is meant to help address.

Regarding the Callaway drivers, that is a completely different story and should not be lumped in with the Taylormade discussion. The GBB 815 and 816 were pretty unforgiving (lower MOI) and somewhat high CG drivers. This is a recipe for feast and famine when it comes to driver performance; strike it high on the face and you get bombs, strike it even slightly low and it will spin up and loose distance. It seems clear to me that they were riding on a bit of the SLDR formula here whereas the Sub Zeroes (XR16, Epic, Rogue) has been both MUCH more forgiving in terms of MOI which will make for more consistent distance across the face but also much lower CG which makes for more feast and less famine when it comes to spin reduction. I would say those drivers were a legit step forward from the previous GBB models.
We can call it marketing, a gimmick, whatever, but I do believe twist-face has been beneficial for me.  I'm a good striker of the ball and play anywhere from 0-2, but my miss is always a little bit toward the heel.  Very, very infrequently will I hit it toe side of center.  The M3 is the first TaylorMade driver in a while that I have a lot of confidence in from a forgiveness perspective.  Those slightly inside strikes turn out infinitely better than the SLDR or M1 for me.

Edited by denvergolf, Yesterday, 06:18 PM.

TaylorMade M3, 10.5 (set 8.5), MRC Tensei Pro Orange 70TX
TaylorMade M3 3HL (set 15), MRC Tensei Pro Orange 80TX
TaylorMade M3 21* Hybrid, MRC Kuro Kage Silver Tini, 90HY-TX
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Titleist 718 AP2, 5-W, KBS C-Taper S+
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21

#22 Valtiel

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Posted 34 minutes ago

View Postdenvergolf, on 22 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 21 July 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

View Postgunmetal, on 17 July 2018 - 06:10 PM, said:

View PostValtiel, on 17 July 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

That depends, when I say "forgiveness" i'm referring to "reduction in gear effect on off center hits" which translates to less hook on toe hits, less slice on heel hits, and less spin increase on low hits. When you start playing the game of millimeters when it comes to your actual strike location this translates in to tighter dispersion and better overall shots. More forgiveness does not usually mean "further in the wrong direction" unless the person is actually aiming the driver in the wrong direction in which case I agree, but no driver is going to be able to compensate for that. :D

In a way the whole Taylormade Twist Face concept is trying to accomplish the same thing that higher MOI accomplishes. Instead of decreasing the gear effect on off center hits they are simply using a different bulge and roll to to start the ball further in the opposite direction that the gear effects want to start the ball. Different means of achieving a similar goal, however one of the other benefits of higher MOI that wouldn't be captured by this is the feel component. The higher the MOI, the slower the clubhead twists on off center hits and this translates to less feeling of torque in the hands.

OK, but TM's implementation of "Twist Face" is FAR more a marketing pitch than it is tangible help the average consumer will notice.  I'm an 8 who is basically helpless with a driver in my hand. I demo'd all of the M3 and M4's hoping for a miracle and was just as terrible as ever off the tee. We both know bulge and roll have been around since forever. Wishon eliminated roll with its 515 GRT over 10 years ago to improve consistency on launch conditions. I saw more results with that than TM's attempt to modify bulge. Taylormade tweaking bulge and calling it revolutionary really is as pathetic as Callaway saying you'll get Epic distance gains over GBB Alpha 816.  And now you can even go Rogue for more distance. Dustin Johnson's driving accuracy was 56% last year and 58% this year. Rahm was 58% last, 59% this year - hardly revolutionary. Bottom line is what Schiels and Crossfield preach and demonstrate time and time again - strike is king and the golfer, not the equipment, is 90%+ responsible for strike. Fitting is critical, but people shouldn't be expecting miracles when they buy the latest and greatest.

I don't disagree regarding the marketing, I think its a fairly simple idea that is not likely to make much of a difference and is certainly not revolutionary. However DJ/Rahms driving accuracy is not a good measure of anything here as they are not slapping it off the toe/heel in the way the average golfer would be which is what the concept is meant to help address.

Regarding the Callaway drivers, that is a completely different story and should not be lumped in with the Taylormade discussion. The GBB 815 and 816 were pretty unforgiving (lower MOI) and somewhat high CG drivers. This is a recipe for feast and famine when it comes to driver performance; strike it high on the face and you get bombs, strike it even slightly low and it will spin up and loose distance. It seems clear to me that they were riding on a bit of the SLDR formula here whereas the Sub Zeroes (XR16, Epic, Rogue) has been both MUCH more forgiving in terms of MOI which will make for more consistent distance across the face but also much lower CG which makes for more feast and less famine when it comes to spin reduction. I would say those drivers were a legit step forward from the previous GBB models.
We can call it marketing, a gimmick, whatever, but I do believe twist-face has been beneficial for me.  I'm a good striker of the ball and play anywhere from 0-2, but my miss is always a little bit toward the heel.  Very, very infrequently will I hit it toe side of center.  The M3 is the first TaylorMade driver in a while that I have a lot of confidence in from a forgiveness perspective.  Those slightly inside strikes turn out infinitely better than the SLDR or M1 for me.

I have no doubt that is true, but we have to look at the MOI factor at play there. Twist Face or no Twist Face, just about any modern driver is going to perform better on off center strikes over the SLDR, The original SLDR's MOI was VERY low for a modern driver meaning that the gear effects from heel/toe hits were always going to be much worse. Now regarding the M1, i'm not sure which one you're referring to or how you had it configured or how you have your M3 configured either but I do know that from the M1 16' -> M1 17' -> M3 the general push was for higher MOI and getting those weights back further and further which each version. Odds are you are seeing much more of the MOI related benefit than the Twist Face related one.
Posted Image M1 430 8.5* Tensei Pro Orange V2 70TX || Posted Image 915D3 8.5* Diamana Kai'li 80x
Posted Image Tour Issue SQ2 13* Blueboard 83x
Posted Image Tour Issue SQ2 17* Blueboard 103x || Posted Image SQ2 15* Blueboard 93x

Posted Image Anser 20* Aldila Rogue Black 110MSI 105h Tour-X || Posted Image V-Steel 21* Project X Rifle Satin 6.5
Posted Image MP-H4 3i 21* Project X PXi 7.0
Posted Image MP-H4 4i 24*
Project X PXi 7.0
Posted Image MP-59 4i-PW 27*- 48* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image Mild Raw 8620 54* Brunswick Precision Rifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image SM6 58* K-Grind Brunswick Precision R
ifle FCM 7.0
Posted Image Special 62* V-Grind Brunswick Precision FCM 7.3 SSx2
Posted Image Santa Fe Bullseye shaft

22



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