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Iron Shaft Dilema


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#1 Marc21Golf

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:17 AM

I was recently fit for irons and ordered a set of AP2's with KBS C Taper Lite X Stiff shafts.  I hit them great in the fitting, and also played 4 days straight prior to the fitting.  Now that i'm back on my normal routine (Range at least once, maybe twice a week and 18 holes on the weekend, I feel that the shafts might be a bit much for my 86 mph 7 iron swing speed.

Should I get re-fit and if I should get a different type of shaft, where would be the best place to get a good set of shafts?  or, should I sell my irons and get new ones :D  LoL...

Or... other ideas?  ie: suck it up and keep what i have since that is what i was fit for originally?


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#2 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:23 AM

I would  get them reshafted. I agree that an 86 mph 7 iron SS is not a great match for an X flex shaft. See the attached chart from True Temper - but you seem to be borderline Stiff, depending on your tempo. https://www.truetemp...peed-and-tempo/

Edited by Bushwood Country Club, 11 July 2018 - 08:24 AM.

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#3 Stuart G.

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:37 AM

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

I feel that the shafts might be a bit much for my 86 mph 7 iron swing speed.

Why do you feel that way?  In what way do you think it's negatively affecting your results?


View PostBushwood Country Club, on 11 July 2018 - 08:23 AM, said:

but you seem to be borderline Stiff, depending on your tempo. https://www.truetemp...peed-and-tempo/

That's only (at best) a starting place for the fitting process, not any kind of criteria for making any final decision.

Edited by Stuart G., 11 July 2018 - 08:39 AM.


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#4 kcd38

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 08:59 AM

I would hit the stiff version against the x stiff and see which feels better to you.

I play the C Taper 130 x and my 6 iron SS is around 95. I am slightly below what the true temper map says I would need for an x stiff but the x stiff simply felt better to me.
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#5 Marc21Golf

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:01 AM

View PostStuart G., on 11 July 2018 - 08:37 AM, said:

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 08:17 AM, said:

I feel that the shafts might be a bit much for my 86 mph 7 iron swing speed.

Why do you feel that way?  In what way do you think it's negatively affecting your results?

It' just has this really boardy feeling that i'm not used to, and I can't "feel" the club load like I could with my previous irons.  Although this
"new feeling" could just take getting used to.  Although, i don't know what negative effects having a shaft that is too stiff for your swing has on the ball flight, i still hit the ball towards my target, but at a lower trajectory and i'm finding myself not holding greens with my longer irons.


View PostBushwood Country Club, on 11 July 2018 - 08:23 AM, said:

but you seem to be borderline Stiff, depending on your tempo. https://www.truetemp...peed-and-tempo/

That's only (at best) a starting place for the fitting process, not any kind of criteria for making any final decision.


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#6 Marc21Golf

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:03 AM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 11 July 2018 - 08:23 AM, said:

I would  get them reshafted. I agree that an 86 mph 7 iron SS is not a great match for an X flex shaft. See the attached chart from True Temper - but you seem to be borderline Stiff, depending on your tempo. https://www.truetemp...peed-and-tempo/

I asked that question, because i've never had an X stiff shaft before, used to always do Callaway's "Uniflex" iron shafts.  He used the Mizuno shaft optimizer thing and that day - during the fitting, we tired 4 different shafts and I had the best numbers with that shaft.  Although we did not try a Stiff vs X-Stuff in the C-Taper Lite.  (Now that I think about it... we probably should have)

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#7 tsecor

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:04 AM

don't rely solely on the recommended shaft because feel is very important....not just stats on an indoor monitor

are they too heavy for you? are you not hitting it high enough?

I play a heavier shaft then what I was fit for because it helps me hit the ball a lower and I get better COURSE results......the trackman stuff is fine, but its not the end all be all....if you have a shaft that you feel good about, go with it....

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#8 jj9000

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:11 AM

86 MPH 7-iron is plenty of swing speed for a C-Taper Lite X.

C-Taper Lite =/= C-Taper

If you would have said 86 MPH 7-iron for a C-Taper X (130), I would agree with you.

I hover in the low 90s with a 6 iron, and have played C-Taper Lite X with no issues (except pulling it left).

I play C-Taper S+ 125 now with no issues.

Give it sime time.  If you hit them well in your fitting, don't overthink it.




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#9 Stuart G.

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:43 AM

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

It' just has this really boardy feeling that i'm not used to, and I can't "feel" the club load like I could with my previous irons.  Although this
"new feeling" could just take getting used to.  Although, i don't know what negative effects having a shaft that is too stiff for your swing has on the ball flight, i still hit the ball towards my target, but at a lower trajectory and i'm finding myself not holding greens with my longer irons.

The only negative effects would come about is IF that different feel causes you to change the mechanics in a negative way.  There are many ways that this can happen.  One such example would be if not feeling the 'normal' amount of loading is causing you (either consciously or sub-consciously) to try and force the shaft to load more to try and get that 'expected' amount of loading.  That can typically mess up many aspects of the swing, sequencing, release timing, grip pressure, etc...  And that's opposed to just maintaining a normal swing despite the change in feel and accepting the fact that it will not load as much.   But as I said, that's just one example and the possible effects on the results could be anything.  However,  If you are getting significantly lower flight and spin, there is a decent chance that it is having some effect on your swing.

And I'm not suggesting such acceptance is easy.  Some people can adjust in a short period of time, some can take a long time and never adjust completely, many are some where in between.   Everyone is different.    e.g. I'm the opposite, too stiff doesn't' bother me too much, but too soft can drive me crazy and screw up the swing big time.   I tried for 2 years to "get used to" a shaft that was too soft for me before I finally saw the light and gave up.  Actually that experience was what prompted me to join the community to learn more about such things.

What shaft were you playing previously that gave you that expected amount of loading?

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#10 md1m

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:47 AM

This is why I have zero faith in indoor fitting off a mat. Every fitting I've had has given me completely different results.

Clubs are fluid

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#11 Marc21Golf

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:11 AM

View PostStuart G., on 11 July 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

It' just has this really boardy feeling that i'm not used to, and I can't "feel" the club load like I could with my previous irons.  Although this
"new feeling" could just take getting used to.  Although, i don't know what negative effects having a shaft that is too stiff for your swing has on the ball flight, i still hit the ball towards my target, but at a lower trajectory and i'm finding myself not holding greens with my longer irons.

The only negative effects would come about is IF that different feel causes you to change the mechanics in a negative way.  There are many ways that this can happen.  One such example would be if not feeling the 'normal' amount of loading is causing you (either consciously or sub-consciously) to try and force the shaft to load more to try and get that 'expected' amount of loading.  That can typically mess up many aspects of the swing, sequencing, release timing, grip pressure, etc...  And that's opposed to just maintaining a normal swing despite the change in feel and accepting the fact that it will not load as much.   But as I said, that's just one example and the possible effects on the results could be anything.  However,  If you are getting significantly lower flight and spin, there is a decent chance that it is having some effect on your swing.

And I'm not suggesting such acceptance is easy.  Some people can adjust in a short period of time, some can take a long time and never adjust completely, many are some where in between.   Everyone is different. e.g. I'm the opposite, too stiff doesn't' bother me too much, but too soft can drive me crazy and screw up the swing big time.   I tried for 2 years to "get used to" a shaft that was too soft for me before I finally saw the light and gave up.  Actually that experience was what prompted me to join the community to learn more about such things.

What shaft were you playing previously that gave you that expected amount of loading?

Was a uniflex shaft in Callaway Razr X irons.  Oldies, but it was my first set and kept it until I felt like i'm decent enough to reward myself with something new.  Shot 71 (-1) for the first time ever, mostly due to my putter being on fire that day.  So I finally upgraded some of my equipment and will continue until i'm caught up with "current" technology.

Still debating hybrids vs, irons, since I"ve never had a hybrid before.

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#12 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:17 AM

Go to the KBS website and enter your info and see what they think. Pretty sure they wont recommend an X flex. While that is no substitute for an outside fitting, it should be directionally helpful. I just did it using my best estimate of the info you provided us (using the moat aggressive tempo), and did not come away with an x flex rec.

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#13 Stuart G.

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:23 AM

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

Was a uniflex shaft in Callaway Razr X irons.

I can image these new ones would feel quite a bit stiffer than those.  That's what most would consider a jump of about 1.5-2.0 'flexes'  (not that that really means anything since there is no real standard for flex).

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#14 tsecor

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:24 AM

never get fitted indoors off a mat....its the furthest thing from a real life scenario....go outside off the grass with wind.

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 11:11 AM, said:

View PostStuart G., on 11 July 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

It' just has this really boardy feeling that i'm not used to, and I can't "feel" the club load like I could with my previous irons.  Although this
"new feeling" could just take getting used to.  Although, i don't know what negative effects having a shaft that is too stiff for your swing has on the ball flight, i still hit the ball towards my target, but at a lower trajectory and i'm finding myself not holding greens with my longer irons.

The only negative effects would come about is IF that different feel causes you to change the mechanics in a negative way.  There are many ways that this can happen.  One such example would be if not feeling the 'normal' amount of loading is causing you (either consciously or sub-consciously) to try and force the shaft to load more to try and get that 'expected' amount of loading.  That can typically mess up many aspects of the swing, sequencing, release timing, grip pressure, etc...  And that's opposed to just maintaining a normal swing despite the change in feel and accepting the fact that it will not load as much.   But as I said, that's just one example and the possible effects on the results could be anything.  However,  If you are getting significantly lower flight and spin, there is a decent chance that it is having some effect on your swing.

And I'm not suggesting such acceptance is easy.  Some people can adjust in a short period of time, some can take a long time and never adjust completely, many are some where in between.   Everyone is different. e.g. I'm the opposite, too stiff doesn't' bother me too much, but too soft can drive me crazy and screw up the swing big time.   I tried for 2 years to "get used to" a shaft that was too soft for me before I finally saw the light and gave up.  Actually that experience was what prompted me to join the community to learn more about such things.

What shaft were you playing previously that gave you that expected amount of loading?

Was a uniflex shaft in Callaway Razr X irons.  Oldies, but it was my first set and kept it until I felt like i'm decent enough to reward myself with something new.  Shot 71 (-1) for the first time ever, mostly due to my putter being on fire that day.  So I finally upgraded some of my equipment and will continue until i'm caught up with "current" technology.

Still debating hybrids vs, irons, since I"ve never had a hybrid before.
get a hybrid!!! most versatile club you will ever own....you can even putt with it in certain fringe scenarios.....

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#15 jj9000

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:51 AM

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 11 July 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Go to the KBS website and enter your info and see what they think. Pretty sure they wont recommend an X flex. While that is no substitute for an outside fitting, it should be directionally helpful. I just did it using my best estimate of the info you provided us (using the moat aggressive tempo), and did not come away with an x flex rec.

Why do you continue to suggest going to TT's and KBS' sites for iron fitting?  The data each site spits out is, at best, a starting point for testing.

The guy has already been on a Mizuno Optimizer, which is leaps and bounds better than a static website suggestion.  Even the Mizzy Optimizer isn't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than static.

He's also been professionally fitted in-person.

Why take him backwards in his journey by suggesting static website shaft fitting?


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#16 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:05 PM

View Postjj9000, on 11 July 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

View PostBushwood Country Club, on 11 July 2018 - 11:17 AM, said:

Go to the KBS website and enter your info and see what they think. Pretty sure they wont recommend an X flex. While that is no substitute for an outside fitting, it should be directionally helpful. I just did it using my best estimate of the info you provided us (using the moat aggressive tempo), and did not come away with an x flex rec.

Why do you continue to suggest going to TT's and KBS' sites for iron fitting?  The data each site spits out is, at best, a starting point for testing.

The guy has already been on a Mizuno Optimizer, which is leaps and bounds better than a static website suggestion.  Even the Mizzy Optimizer isn't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than static.

He's also been professionally fitted in-person.

Why take him backwards in his journey by suggesting static website shaft fitting?
try READING WHAT Both the OP and I WROTE, Professor.  

First, I answered his question.  (Try reading, slowly, the OP)

Second, I offered him multiple data points to assess his situation.

Third, I suggested these as “starting points” in answering his questions. If he wants to ignore, that is his choice.

I can tell you this - NOBODY is putting his swing speed, even with the most violent transition, into an X flex shaft.

Why you feel the need to criticize me is unexplainable - but thats your problem. Go find someone else to push around.
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#17 jj9000

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:16 PM

Tap the brakes, big guy.  Nobody is pushing you around.  We're just trying to help the guy, and going backwards doesn't help.

Also, sounds to me like the Mizzy Optimizer, as well as a professional fitter, suggested CTL X.  So, I suppose that qualifies as more than nobody (capitalized).

Funny.

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#18 PoolPartyJOB

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:19 PM

OP,

87 mph with a 7 iron is plenty speed for that shaft, as mentioned above all X flex shafts were not created equal. I recently bought a new set of i200s with PX 6.0 which I was professionally fit for and had never played before, itís taken 6 weeks to get comfortable with a new shaft. Ball flight is perfect.

Donít change anything, keep playing them and reevaluate in a month or two.

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#19 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:45 PM

So your opinion > my opinion... GOT IT. Thanks for setting me straight.

Now THAT is funny.
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#20 PoolPartyJOB

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 12:47 PM

Weíre talking C Taper Lite not x7.....

G400 LST 8.5 Speeder 6.3

Z585/785 3-PW KBS Tour

RTX 4 50/56/62 KBS Tour

tbd


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#21 Marc21Golf

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 01:21 PM

View PostPoolPartyJOB, on 11 July 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

We're talking C Taper Lite not x7.....
I wish i knew more about shaft technology, but I don't.  I just get what gave me the best numbers at the time of the fitting.  Next time I will see outside ball flight after a fitting and not just utilize the fitter and the trackman recommendation.

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#22 Stuart G.

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 02:44 PM

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

I wish i knew more about shaft technology, but I don't.

Not so much about shaft technology but this article is a good starting point to understanding shaft characteristics and what is important when selecting a shaft - but I'm guessing that's what you're really interested in.  Note, it's a 3 part article, this is the first part (but has links to part 2 and 3).

http://www.golfwrx.c...-shafts-part-1/

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#23 Bushwood Country Club

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 02:55 PM

View PostStuart G., on 11 July 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

View PostMarc21Golf, on 11 July 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

I wish i knew more about shaft technology, but I don't.

Not so much about shaft technology but this article is a good starting point to understanding shaft characteristics and what is important when selecting a shaft - but I'm guessing that's what you're really interested in.  Note, it's a 3 part article, this is the first part (but has links to part 2 and 3).

http://www.golfwrx.c...-shafts-part-1/
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#24 Hattie Pants

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 03:19 PM

OP I read twice and I didn't see, what is your miss with these new shafts? The link to different shaft characteristics above I assume has good info about different stiffness in the butt, midsection and tip of shafts, as well as stepped vs. stepless shafts. The reason that is important is when people suggest you look at a True Temper site for comparisons, it is totally apples to oranges. I have played C-Tapers for quite awhile now, and they fit my swing great, the same spec shafts in S300 are a disaster for me. Totally different shaft characteristics.

Knowing your miss can help you tell general trends as to whether a shaft is too stiff, too whippy etc, but as others have noted, it's only a jumping off point. Just because a shaft is too stiff doesn't always mean you'll hit it low and right, but if you hit it low and right, the shaft could be too stiff, if that makes sense.
TS3 9.5 accra tour z x 465 m5
M4 15 tensei blue 7x
718 AP2 4-PW modus 120x
SM7 raw 54* c-taper 120s
SM7 raw 60* vokey wedge shaft
Cameron X5

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#25 Marc21Golf

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:23 PM

My main miss are toe shots and huge misses to the left.  Doubt it's shaft related, i'm working with a coach on not closing my club face so much and swinging more to the right.  it's hard to do for me lol.


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#26 grochol17

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:29 PM

OP: this isn't to say that the c taper lite x is the right shaft for you, but I have a similar swing speed and play that shaft in my 1 and 3 irons with no problems. The ctl is much softer than the c taper x, but will definitely feel much more stout than the uniflex you were hitting. For what it is worth, when I first got those shafts I kept thinking "I need to kill this since it is an x flex" and would make bad swings. Once I got over that, all was well.

Also, go Tigers!

Edited by grochol17, 11 July 2018 - 10:29 PM.

Ping G400 LST, 8.5*, HZRDUS Yellow 75 6.0
Titleist 915 F, 14.25*, Speeder VC 8.2 Tour Spec X
Mizuno MP H5, 1&3 iron, C Taper Lite X  
Mizuno MP 25, 4&5 iron, DG X100 SSx1
Mizuno MP 5, 6-PW, DG X100 SSx1
Titleist Vokey Spin Milled CC, 53* & 58* (DG S300)
Piretti Potenza II Rev 2.0, 375g, 34"
Srixon Z Star / Z Star XV 5

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#27 tweakedmelon

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:41 PM

I was recently fit to C-taper lite with similar swing speed with a 6i. The fitter said they’d build the clubs with stiff hard stepped or X soft stepped depending on which one they can get to the right frequency. Not sure what I’ll end with because I haven’t received the clubs yet, but not too unrealistic for you to be in c taper lite X stiff based on my experience.

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#28 Marc21Golf

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:26 AM

View Postgrochol17, on 11 July 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

OP: this isn't to say that the c taper lite x is the right shaft for you, but I have a similar swing speed and play that shaft in my 1 and 3 irons with no problems. The ctl is much softer than the c taper x, but will definitely feel much more stout than the uniflex you were hitting. For what it is worth, when I first got those shafts I kept thinking "I need to kill this since it is an x flex" and would make bad swings. Once I got over that, all was well.

Also, go Tigers!

I think you're onto something there.  I was at the range last night realized I need to stop trying to kill it.  Knowing I have "X" shafts i think i'm subconsciously trying to hit it harder. - Therefore making bad swings.

Edited by Marc21Golf, 12 July 2018 - 08:27 AM.


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