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Last weekend I played a course with a dogleg par 3.


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#1 Burt Chance

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:57 PM

I'm talking legit dogleg. You had to hit a MASSIVE cut (RH golfer) to hit the middle of the green (or anywhere near the middle). If you hit a dead straight bullet, you may catch the left side of the green.

I'd never seen anything like that before. I ended up hitting it about 20 yards left of the green (on purpose) and somehow got up and down.

(This was hole 17 at Holiday Golf Course in Panama City Beach. The back tees were the only set of tees that turned the whole into a dogleg. The other 4 sets aimed right at the green)

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#2 davep043

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:03 PM

View PostBurt Chance, on 09 July 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm talking legit dogleg. You had to hit a MASSIVE cut (RH golfer) to hit the middle of the green (or anywhere near the middle). If you hit a dead straight bullet, you may catch the left side of the green.

I'd never seen anything like that before. I ended up hitting it about 20 yards left of the green (on purpose) and somehow got up and down.

(This was hole 17 at Holiday Golf Course in Panama City Beach. The back tees were the only set of tees that turned the whole into a dogleg. The other 4 sets aimed right at the green)
So let's get this straight.  This is a basic par-3 hole for most players.  For the absolute BEST golfers (the only ones who should be on the back tees) they've made it more demanding.  And that's a bad thing?
Check out #13 at Blackwolf Run's River Course.  From the back tees, its either a draw, starting over the river, or a high long iron over a huge tree.  From the "normal" tees, its a nice straight shot.

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#3 larryw

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:07 PM

OK, it peaked my interest.

Have to agree that it definitely is a dogleg par 3. The flyover on the website even shows the camera flying a big right turn as it moves from the tee to the green.

However, in looking at Google Earth, to be fair?  It looks like you can go over the two VERY tall trees on the corner - or even go between them since they are the very tall but very skinny type trees. (Sorry don't know what type but look like very tall Palm trees). :swoon:

Looks like it would be a fun hole to play - at least once.
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#4 mark m

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:28 PM

Years ago in a pro-am we played a hole like this. We got up on the tee box and you could not see a flagstick. The tee markers were placed on the far right side. The tee was wide - so if you walked about 30 yards to the left you could see the flagstick on the far right of the green. (Some trees blocked the view of the right side of the green from the markers. At first we though the group in front had forgot to replace the flagstick.) Sounds similar to your experience(?) Basically, it was a carny set-up.

Our pro says, "what we have here guys is a dogleg par 3!" LMAO.  

And I have played the River Course from the Black tees - and you could clearly see the flagstick on #13 from the markers. It is a tough shot. There are tough par 3's on all 4 courses at Kohler.

EDIT: here is a quick video of #4 at Keller Golf Course in MN. It hosted a tour event way back in the day. (50's and 60's) There is a big tree right in the way. You have to do a Joe Washington there - go under or over. (You Sooner fans will appreciate the reference.) You can see the flagstick from the tee box. When they renovated a few years ago - the tree was left in place as that was the consensus of the patrons/golfers.

http://keller.flyoverguys.com/hole-4/

Edited by mark m, 09 July 2018 - 05:44 PM.

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#5 larrybud

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 07:52 PM

Just lazy course design or crappy course maintenance.


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#6 cardoustie

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 08:23 PM

I played there a few times, mid iron over the tops of the palms
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#7 MadGolfer76

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 08:27 PM

Sounds like a candidate for a future U.S. Open.
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#8 Sean2

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Posted 09 July 2018 - 08:29 PM

I played a par 5 that was a sharp dog leg left. The problem was you could hit no more than a 9-iron off the tee, unless you wanted to go into the woods. And, you were hitting the tee shot through a narrow corridor of very tall trees so no way to go over. And, the dog leg was so sharp there was no way to bend a shot around the trees. Your next shot was a good 300 yards.
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#9 HatsForBats

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:26 AM

Not a fan of this type of design. I think a better design would be to build a green angled to better accept a left to right shot and then well bunkered on the right side. Getting rid of the trees or at least having them much shorter in height.

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#10 Ferguson

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:51 AM

Sounds like a lay up hole.  


How was the rest of the course?


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#11 Rapatt95

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:53 AM

View PostSean2, on 09 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

I played a par 5 that was a sharp dog leg left. The problem was you could hit no more than a 9-iron off the tee, unless you wanted to go into the woods. And, you were hitting the tee shot through a narrow corridor of very tall trees so no way to go over. And, the dog leg was so sharp there was no way to bend a shot around the trees. Your next shot was a good 300 yards.
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#12 Bad9

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:55 AM

My home courses has a par 3 that's not really a dogleg but it might as well be. 150yds with the right half of the green is blocked by trees-the first tree is about 20yds off the tee box and another, taller group are at bout 80yds off the tee. Stupid hole. If you can't hit it over threes(at least half of our members can't you have to try and hit a 20yd fade if the pin is on the right.

Edit: Not sure if you get the proper perspective but here are a couple of pics. They were taken on the 150yd mark to the middle of the green. The two closest birches are 25-30ft high. The group of trees midway to the green are much higher.

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#13 596

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:27 AM

Par 3 at a course, can't remember which one, in Show Low, AZ.  You can barely see the tip of a flag stick in the distance.  Its a huge drop from tee to green and the trees over the cliff are so tall that you have to hit a shot up and over the trees.  When you get to the green, you find a flag stick that is at least 15 feet tall.  It had to be that tall to see it from the tee box.

Another one in Parker AZ.   From the tee box you see nothing.  And I mean nothing in front of you but a huge drop off.  You have to walk to the front edge of the tee box and look straight down to the green over the cliff.   Mark the flag on a rock in the far distance in the mountains.  Walk back to the tee area, aim at the rock you chose and let it rip.  It was a super fun hole to play.  My gap wedge shot plugged in the green.

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#14 TLUBulldogGolf

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:52 AM

View Postdavep043, on 09 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

View PostBurt Chance, on 09 July 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm talking legit dogleg. You had to hit a MASSIVE cut (RH golfer) to hit the middle of the green (or anywhere near the middle). If you hit a dead straight bullet, you may catch the left side of the green.

I'd never seen anything like that before. I ended up hitting it about 20 yards left of the green (on purpose) and somehow got up and down.

(This was hole 17 at Holiday Golf Course in Panama City Beach. The back tees were the only set of tees that turned the whole into a dogleg. The other 4 sets aimed right at the green)
So let's get this straight.  This is a basic par-3 hole for most players.  For the absolute BEST golfers (the only ones who should be on the back tees) they've made it more demanding.  And that's a bad thing?
Check out #13 at Blackwolf Run's River Course.  From the back tees, its either a draw, starting over the river, or a high long iron over a huge tree.  From the "normal" tees, its a nice straight shot.

Having to curve it around a tree on a par 3 is a bad thing yes. I'm guessing people that should be playing these tees can just take it over them. You can take it over the tree at Blackwolf Run.
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#15 davep043

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:07 AM

View PostTLUBulldogGolf, on 10 July 2018 - 08:52 AM, said:

View Postdavep043, on 09 July 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

View PostBurt Chance, on 09 July 2018 - 03:57 PM, said:

I'm talking legit dogleg. You had to hit a MASSIVE cut (RH golfer) to hit the middle of the green (or anywhere near the middle). If you hit a dead straight bullet, you may catch the left side of the green.

I'd never seen anything like that before. I ended up hitting it about 20 yards left of the green (on purpose) and somehow got up and down.

(This was hole 17 at Holiday Golf Course in Panama City Beach. The back tees were the only set of tees that turned the whole into a dogleg. The other 4 sets aimed right at the green)
So let's get this straight.  This is a basic par-3 hole for most players.  For the absolute BEST golfers (the only ones who should be on the back tees) they've made it more demanding.  And that's a bad thing?
Check out #13 at Blackwolf Run's River Course.  From the back tees, its either a draw, starting over the river, or a high long iron over a huge tree.  From the "normal" tees, its a nice straight shot.

Having to curve it around a tree on a par 3 is a bad thing yes. I'm guessing people that should be playing these tees can just take it over them. You can take it over the tree at Blackwolf Run.
Cardoustie said in post #6 that he's hit it over the trees, so there are at least two ways to skin that particular cat.  The OP doesn't list his handicap, but its possible that he shouldn't have been back there.  Personally, I have a really hard time hitting a cut, so I'd struggle there, but that's on me, not on the design.


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#16 Lagavulin62

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 11:53 AM

I have never seen anything like that on a par 3, but at a few cheap courses I have seen the par 4 that required a 7 iron or less off the tee to get around the ridiculous “dogleg”. Any course that puts obstructions like a tree on a par 3 that dictates ball flight from the tee(ANY TEE) is just mickey mouse golf to me. There is nothing wrong with hiding pins behind traps or edges of green that benefit from a type of shot, but manipulating air space from the tee box is just unfair. Golf is not miniture golf. A player should have options to access a pin, he shouldn’t be forced to hit only one shot. I don’t think a player should be forced to play an unfair setup just because he’s playing the back tees. There is a difference between difficult setups and unfair/mickey mouse setups.

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#17 rooski

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:10 PM

View PostLagavulin62, on 10 July 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have never seen anything like that on a par 3, but at a few cheap courses I have seen the par 4 that required a 7 iron or less off the tee to get around the ridiculous "dogleg". Any course that puts obstructions like a tree on a par 3 that dictates ball flight from the tee(ANY TEE) is just mickey mouse golf to me. There is nothing wrong with hiding pins behind traps or edges of green that benefit from a type of shot, but manipulating air space from the tee box is just unfair. Golf is not miniture golf. A player should have options to access a pin, he shouldn't be forced to hit only one shot. I don't think a player should be forced to play an unfair setup just because he's playing the back tees. There is a difference between difficult setups and unfair/mickey mouse setups.

Agreed.. Anytime a shot in the middle of the fairway or on the tee is blocked by a tree without a shot to the pin, I just roll my eyes.. There's a straight Par 3 at the course I grew up on that has a giant tree that blocks a draw from the tee box.. I've always used the term "goofy golf" to describe it..

Another good example is like you mentioned.. When I'm forced to tee off on a Par 4 or Par 5 with an 8 iron I chock it up to bad architecture

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#18 heavy_hitter

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:49 PM

View Postrooski, on 10 July 2018 - 12:10 PM, said:

View PostLagavulin62, on 10 July 2018 - 11:53 AM, said:

I have never seen anything like that on a par 3, but at a few cheap courses I have seen the par 4 that required a 7 iron or less off the tee to get around the ridiculous "dogleg". Any course that puts obstructions like a tree on a par 3 that dictates ball flight from the tee(ANY TEE) is just mickey mouse golf to me. There is nothing wrong with hiding pins behind traps or edges of green that benefit from a type of shot, but manipulating air space from the tee box is just unfair. Golf is not miniture golf. A player should have options to access a pin, he shouldn't be forced to hit only one shot. I don't think a player should be forced to play an unfair setup just because he's playing the back tees. There is a difference between difficult setups and unfair/mickey mouse setups.

Agreed.. Anytime a shot in the middle of the fairway or on the tee is blocked by a tree without a shot to the pin, I just roll my eyes.. There's a straight Par 3 at the course I grew up on that has a giant tree that blocks a draw from the tee box.. I've always used the term "goofy golf" to describe it..

Another good example is like you mentioned.. When I'm forced to tee off on a Par 4 or Par 5 with an 8 iron I chock it up to bad architecture

My home course has a couple of  goofy holes.

Number 3 is a Par 4 that has a hill with a bunker in it smack dab in the middle of the fairway.  You can't see anything over the hill it is so tall.  You have to drive up to the hill to make sure no one is on the other side so you don't hit them.  On the other side of this hill you have 40 yards of fairway with water to the left and OB to the right.  Just a dumb design of a hole.

Number 16 is a Par 5 with huge Oaks in the middle of the fairway about 80-100 yards out.  This isn't just one tree, it is a grouping of trees.  It is honestly silly.

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#19 Barfolomew

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 03:23 PM

You didnt even say how long the hole is.....am I playin a high cut 3 wood or what?
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#20 Lagavulin62

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:10 PM

View PostBarfolomew, on 10 July 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

You didnt even say how long the hole is.....am I playin a high cut 3 wood or what?


I looked it up and did the flyover. I think back are 185 maybe. It’s two palm trees maybe 2/3 way to hole on right. It looks like they have room for a back tee box to the left, unobstructed(lol). I say do that or cut them down. They are just palm trees they planted anyway. But here again distance is not the issue. They are in the way, it’s ridiculous.


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#21 Barfolomew

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:41 PM

 Lagavulin62, on 10 July 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

 Barfolomew, on 10 July 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

You didnt even say how long the hole is.....am I playin a high cut 3 wood or what?


I looked it up and did the flyover. I think back are 185 maybe. It's two palm trees maybe 2/3 way to hole on right. It looks like they have room for a back tee box to the left, unobstructed(lol). I say do that or cut them down. They are just palm trees they planted anyway. But here again distance is not the issue. They are in the way, it's ridiculous.

I respect that I think too many holes arent interesting enough...if I designed a course it would have all kinds of goodies like that to make it a FUN course
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#22 Sean2

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:27 PM

 Rapatt95, on 10 July 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

 Sean2, on 09 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

I played a par 5 that was a sharp dog leg left. The problem was you could hit no more than a 9-iron off the tee, unless you wanted to go into the woods. And, you were hitting the tee shot through a narrow corridor of very tall trees so no way to go over. And, the dog leg was so sharp there was no way to bend a shot around the trees. Your next shot was a good 300 yards.
Where was this at?

I have been racking my brain, and I don't remember. It was probably a decade ago.
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#23 Baitkiller

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:10 PM

Son..when i was your age i would hit a shot right over that tree.






Dad, when you were my age thst tree was only 10' tall

Edited by Baitkiller, 10 July 2018 - 09:13 PM.

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#24 KING246

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:14 PM

There's a course by my brother's house in Burbank, CA (DeBell) that has a crazy blind par three #12. You have to hit over the corner of a mountain and cannot even see the green from the blue tees. You also can't walk to the right and even scope the yardage because of a hill on the previous hole. Attached File  1531275258158.jpg   37.41K   8 downloads

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#25 Kookaburra1966

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 11:30 PM

The best fun I ever had on a par 3 was this hole at Northbridge GC in the northern suburbs of Sydney (Australia).  It was so steep downhill you couldn't see the green past the front edge of the tee box, even on the most forward tees.  Phenomenal view across one of the inlets of Sydney Harbour to the mansions across the other side though.  You just hit the ball out into space and hope for the best ..

PS never more than a 7 iron so not exactly long either ...

Can't seem to add a picture so here's a link https://goo.gl/maps/vyFDg46gWks

Edited by Kookaburra1966, 10 July 2018 - 11:44 PM.


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#26 Rapatt95

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 12:15 PM

 Sean2, on 10 July 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

 Rapatt95, on 10 July 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

 Sean2, on 09 July 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

I played a par 5 that was a sharp dog leg left. The problem was you could hit no more than a 9-iron off the tee, unless you wanted to go into the woods. And, you were hitting the tee shot through a narrow corridor of very tall trees so no way to go over. And, the dog leg was so sharp there was no way to bend a shot around the trees. Your next shot was a good 300 yards.
Where was this at?

I have been racking my brain, and I don't remember. It was probably a decade ago.
Was it in Pa?
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#27 GMR

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 11:07 AM

If we are on the topic of bizarre windmill-golf par 3s, then the absolute worst offender (at least for a "top" course) to me is Lahinch #5 down on the south coast of Ireland.  Here's the link.

From the blue tees the hole is 154 yards, uphill, to a green that is only about 10-15 yards deep, and there is an ENORMOUS MOUND that makes it impossible to see even a sliver of the green.  If you miss the fringe you have about a 50% chance of actually finding your ball in the course's 2-foot "rough" (maybe even less given that it's completely blind so it's hard to know where it even went in).   On top of that, the hole generally plays straight into the wind.  Sounds quaint and charming, right?  Yeah maybe, until you realise it's not uncommon to play a course in that part of the world in 30-40mph winds.

I played the course with an experienced local caddy in one of the aforementioned 30+ mph winds. When we got to the teebox, his advice was "aim roughly that direction, and hit whatever feels good."  Clearly "whatever feels good" isn't normally the type of information I like to hear from a caddy when playing a blind hole for the first time, so after some deliberation we decide on the 5-wood.  I normally carry my 5-wood 235 yards off a tee, and this is a 155 yd par 3, of which I cannot see the green.  The only positive that came from that experience is that we managed to find my ball in the rough about 5 yards through the back, and I was able to hack it out and make bogey and move on to the next...

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#28 davep043

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 11:54 AM

 GMR, on 20 July 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

If we are on the topic of bizarre windmill-golf par 3s, then the absolute worst offender (at least for a "top" course) to me is Lahinch #5 down on the south coast of Ireland.  Here's the link.

From the blue tees the hole is 154 yards, uphill, to a green that is only about 10-15 yards deep, and there is an ENORMOUS MOUND that makes it impossible to see even a sliver of the green.  If you miss the fringe you have about a 50% chance of actually finding your ball in the course's 2-foot "rough" (maybe even less given that it's completely blind so it's hard to know where it even went in).   On top of that, the hole generally plays straight into the wind.  Sounds quaint and charming, right?  Yeah maybe, until you realise it's not uncommon to play a course in that part of the world in 30-40mph winds.

I played the course with an experienced local caddy in one of the aforementioned 30+ mph winds. When we got to the teebox, his advice was "aim roughly that direction, and hit whatever feels good."  Clearly "whatever feels good" isn't normally the type of information I like to hear from a caddy when playing a blind hole for the first time, so after some deliberation we decide on the 5-wood.  I normally carry my 5-wood 235 yards off a tee, and this is a 155 yd par 3, of which I cannot see the green.  The only positive that came from that experience is that we managed to find my ball in the rough about 5 yards through the back, and I was able to hack it out and make bogey and move on to the next...
I rather enjoy that hole, even into the wind.  Just aim over the white rock.  And its not like this was the first totally blind shot you had on the course, the previous hole is a par-5, downwind, with a big dune crossing the fairway about 100 yards short of the green.

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#29 GMR

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 12:02 PM

 davep043, on 20 July 2018 - 11:54 AM, said:

 GMR, on 20 July 2018 - 11:07 AM, said:

If we are on the topic of bizarre windmill-golf par 3s, then the absolute worst offender (at least for a "top" course) to me is Lahinch #5 down on the south coast of Ireland.  Here's the link.

From the blue tees the hole is 154 yards, uphill, to a green that is only about 10-15 yards deep, and there is an ENORMOUS MOUND that makes it impossible to see even a sliver of the green.  If you miss the fringe you have about a 50% chance of actually finding your ball in the course's 2-foot "rough" (maybe even less given that it's completely blind so it's hard to know where it even went in).   On top of that, the hole generally plays straight into the wind.  Sounds quaint and charming, right?  Yeah maybe, until you realise it's not uncommon to play a course in that part of the world in 30-40mph winds.

I played the course with an experienced local caddy in one of the aforementioned 30+ mph winds. When we got to the teebox, his advice was "aim roughly that direction, and hit whatever feels good."  Clearly "whatever feels good" isn't normally the type of information I like to hear from a caddy when playing a blind hole for the first time, so after some deliberation we decide on the 5-wood.  I normally carry my 5-wood 235 yards off a tee, and this is a 155 yd par 3, of which I cannot see the green.  The only positive that came from that experience is that we managed to find my ball in the rough about 5 yards through the back, and I was able to hack it out and make bogey and move on to the next...
I rather enjoy that hole, even into the wind.  Just aim over the white rock.  And its not like this was the first totally blind shot you had on the course, the previous hole is a par-5, downwind, with a big dune crossing the fairway about 100 yards short of the green.
Correct, not to mention the clown whose mouth you need to hit it through. Needless to say that course as a whole was not my cup of tea. Not a lot of fun looking for balls 2 yards off the fairway all day. Perhaps I'll give it another shot when it's not cold and so windy you can barely stand (if such a time exists), but honest with both Ballybunion and Old Head not too far, I can't see myself going too far out of my way unless I have a day--and a dozen golf balls--to kill.

Edited by GMR, 20 July 2018 - 12:02 PM.


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#30 KAndyMan

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 10:23 PM

Played a course a few weeks ago that had set ups like this. One hole was a 270 yard par 4 90* dogleg about 140 out. And there was  no short cutting the dog legs since houses were the doglegs. Guess you could of gone over them but screw risking the thin bullet into a $400 window. Really didnt care for the course and we all agreed that was going to be our last time playing there.


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