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“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”


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#61 FatReed

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 12:16 PM

Monte wrote:

“Some of you are missing the point.  You can have a lot of immediate learning and improvement, it takes time to stick and for it to become your primary movement.”

*****

Not missing anything. You clearly state above, ‘you can have a lot of immediate learning and improvement.’ Odd, because you also state the title of your thread is ‘genius.’ Which is it?

At any rate, in the moment of ‘immediate learning and improvement’ that you acknowledge, what changes? Did the golfer physically change? No! Did the golfer build, as you put it, so-called new ‘motor pathways’ on the lesson tee? No! . . . what changed?!

The golfer’s FOCUS changed!

So, what happens when the golfer gets home, or out on the course and, as you suggest, they resort back?  Did the golfer physically change? No! Did the golfer lose, as you put it, so-called new ‘motor pathways?’ No! . . . what changed?!

The golfer’s FOCUS changed!

It’s impossible to continuously and accurately monitor all the components of the golf swing motion. The minutia is endless and, thus, so are the possible points of focus. Focusing on the golf swing motion is not the proper focus. . . although, it can be, and represents the most direct path to slow-to-no improvement in GOLF.

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#62 Nard_S

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 12:37 PM

View Postwadesworld, on 08 July 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

But this is the lightbulb that went on for me.

Why did I have a crappy over-the-top hacker weak early release slice for most of my life?  Because I was trying to hit the ball and trying to manipulate the club to hit the ball.

Nobody ever told me to swing to a target out there.  Nobody ever told me to let the club swing with gravity, versus me swinging the club.  There's a HUGE difference. The former is what "natural athletes" and great players do.  And they often do it without realizing they're doing it. When someone told them to hit the ball over there, without thinking about it, they realized they had to release to a target out there, not release at the ball down there.  The rest of us released at the ball.

Once I experienced what it felt like to swing to a target and to let the club track its own arc via centripetal force and gravity, Wow!  I experienced sequencing, lag and compression I had never felt before. Or had only experienced as one of those rare sweet-spot swings I couldn't figure out how I did.

I played to a 7 with a swing that has a dozen serious faults and I never practiced. Anybody can get to high singles with a duct tape and rubber band swing but to go sub 5 you need to straighten out fundamental flaws that are in the DNA of it. It just gets exponentially more difficult. There's a reason why it is  statistically near impossible to become scratch if you started the game as an adult.

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#63 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:08 PM

Wrx is a place where Newton could post "apples fall when they are dropped" and someone would post "not in outer space, you moron."

Edited by wmblake2000, 08 July 2018 - 03:43 PM.

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#64 FatReed

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:16 PM

There is a false underlying premise in this thread, which is that ‘change’ is necessarily associated with ‘improvement.’

Equally, if not more important, is that ‘unlearning’ is harder then learning. . . and most important to the insufficient masses that have given chase down the rabbit hole.

Again, everyone is obsessed with the golf swing motion, and all the minutia therein.

Change your focus and you WILL improve!

Edit: grammar

Edited by FatReed, 08 July 2018 - 01:36 PM.


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#65 Sean2

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:29 PM

View PostSingapore Joe, on 07 July 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 July 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

View PostNoTalentLefty, on 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.

The thing about developing a good short game, is one doesn't need youth, or athleticism to get one. The full swing is a bit more...complicated. :-)
I'm suffering from a serious chirrosis of faith and starting to believe that if you don't develop a good swing when you are reasonably young you never will. For those of us who picked up the game in the age of fourty or so there is no salvation no matter how fit and athletic. Keep the drive in play, struggle the ball to the vicinity of the green and hope for a few pars on decent short game, an occassional lucky birdie. Oh yes, stay positive and enjoy the game. Have fun out there. Maybe bring trekking boots the next time.

Comparing to, say, basketball. I played junior basketball and even if I have hardly touched a ball for twenty years (or is it thirty), whenever I do it instantly feels right and I can start tossing it pretty well. It's all there in the muscle memory.

Well, I didn't start playing until I turned 50...and while I have reached a majority of my goals, it hasn't been easy, and still isn't. You're right about basketball. I could take a jump shot without even thinking about it.

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#66 Sean2

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:35 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

Monte, just from reading your posts, I have the impression you are a great teacher with great ideas, but the notion that all change and learning has to come slowly is false, and it is a shame that people have widely accepted this trope. It is true that some people need more time than others, but it is also true that many other students learn and assimilate information very rapidly. If people (excluding our preferred WRX instructors, of course) spent as much time studying the fields of educational psychology and instructional practice as they do Trackman datasets, they would have a better idea what is possible in terms of progressing student learning.

I agree mad.  

There are exceptions.  And it's all relative.  How long is long ?  How short is short. ?  To me a year or so isn't that long. To others is eternity.  I took up this game at age 34.  I'm 38 now. From beginner to 0-2 handicap ( fluctuates with my putting woes ) in 2 1/2 years.  No teacher.  

But. I'm a visual learner. As in you can tell me 12 things. But I won't get 4 of them. You can show me a 3 minute video on All 12 and I'll get All 12.  
With a golf swing I copy things I like the look or result of.  And I've built a swing that works well. Working on the last pieces of the puzzle which is Driver and putter.  And I'm learning the same way. Along the way I've picked up a couple mentors who recognized my potential and I have received some swing advice ( one is a Pga master ) along the way.  But more than anything mental game help.  

My point is. If you're a 99.9 % visual learner like me and are very athletic. You can make Changes relatively quickly.  Example. I went 10 finger grip to interlock in 4 Days. 5 th day I played 18 and shot 75. I changed my natural shot shape from a draw to a fade over a month or so period.  I've always hit  it both ways. But would lose control of my draw and a fade might go straight or double cross.  So I just rebuilt my takeaway and went to a fade . The mental image I use ? Vijay and jack.  If id used conventional teaching I'd still be hitting hooks .  There were several light bulb moments along the way.  I suspect that putter will be the same when it clicks. One day I'll get it and poof there it will be.

You can't do what you can't do.  And you can do pretty much anything you say you can.  To one degree or another. If we tell ourselves it takes years. It will. If we don't put in the work. It will never happen.  But if we say we can. And we do the work. How can it not ?  To the degree that our talent allows of course.

That may be part of the explanation of why some people pick up the game relatively "easily". I regularly play with two young gentlemen. One started playing last July, and if you include the long winter we had, he has been playing around 8 or 9 months. He has already had a hole-in-one, and the other day shot an 81. The other young fellow is entering his third year, is a mid-single digit with a ball speed in the mid-180s. Neither one has ever taken a lesson.
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#67 Sean2

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:48 PM

As to the "external" versus "internal" methodologies I have never come across an instructor that even acknowledged the existence of focusing externally. Everything is about positions of various body parts.
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#68 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:58 PM

View PostSean2, on 08 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

As to the "external" versus "internal" methodologies I have never come across an instructor that even acknowledged the existence of focusing externally. Everything is about positions of various body parts.
Never is a strong word.  Every lesson I do has both.


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#69 wadesworld

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:06 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View Postwadesworld, on 08 July 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

But this is the lightbulb that went on for me.

Why did I have a crappy over-the-top hacker weak early release slice for most of my life?  Because I was trying to hit the ball and trying to manipulate the club to hit the ball.

Nobody ever told me to swing to a target out there.  Nobody ever told me to let the club swing with gravity, versus me swinging the club.  There's a HUGE difference. The former is what "natural athletes" and great players do.  And they often do it without realizing they're doing it. When someone told them to hit the ball over there, without thinking about it, they realized they had to release to a target out there, not release at the ball down there.  The rest of us released at the ball.

Once I experienced what it felt like to swing to a target and to let the club track its own arc via centripetal force and gravity, Wow!  I experienced sequencing, lag and compression I had never felt before. Or had only experienced as one of those rare sweet-spot swings I couldn't figure out how I did.

I played to a 7 with a swing that has a dozen serious faults and I never practiced. Anybody can get to high singles with a duct tape and rubber band swing but to go sub 5 you need to straighten out fundamental flaws that are in the DNA of it. It just gets exponentially more difficult. There's a reason why it is  statistically near impossible to become scratch if you started the game as an adult.

Sure. You can become a decent golfer if you learn to manage your faults well.

But you miss my point.  If you ask 99% of golfers or pros, they’d say I sliced because I came too far inside. They’d give me drills to fix my inside takeaway.

But the inside takeaway is not the fault. It’s the symptom. The fault is my focus on hitting the ball. The best way to hit the ball is over the top.

When my focus improves to swinging to a target out there, suddenly my inside takeaway disappears and I no longer come over the top, or at a minimum, do so much less severely. Why?  Because you can’t swing to a target out there effectively by coming over the top. Your brain and body will respond to the new task with a better movement.

People will tell you it can’t be that simple. They had to work for years and do thousands of reps of detailed drills to eliminate their slice. But it is often that simple.

Now, maintaining that focus and not letting short-circuits creep in is not simple. And yes, we all get better at performing tasks the more we perform them. I don’t care what methodology you use to learn, you’re unlikely to get to scratch or low single digits if you only play once a month.

The point is, there is another way that doesn’t involve 18 months of hitting balls with a shoebox on the outside of your ball.

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#70 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:07 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

Some of you are missing the point.  You can have a lot of immediate learning and improvement, it takes time to stick and for it to become your primary movement.

I have had to make two drastic swing changes because of injuries the last 4 years.

In May, I made a huge change in how I started my downswing.  Went out a few weeks after a major change and almost made the US Senior Open, and drove the better better than I ever have,

My default movement is still the old one and I still have to constantly implement the new move.  I did not give up the first bad round I had.

It’s still a battle as under pressure, the old move is still there.

I am not near the new move being fully integrated.

I hit it farther and straighter, but the process is in the early stages.

Personally, I am not missing that. What I am also adding is that the amount of time it takes for that change to become normal is variable for different people, and that individual experiences are not a point of comparison when making generalizations of the overall population. There are many people who can assimilate much faster than what many think is possible, and walking into the next lesson thinking something is going to take "X" amount of time to accomplish is not a healthy teaching habit.

Not saying you do any of this, so you know...

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#71 finleysg

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:07 PM

Sometimes it's just a matter of good timing. One 30 second Instagram hint from Monte x 2 months of practice has cut my index in half. It was the "lesson" that helped me break a long plateau.
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#72 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:08 PM

View PostSean2, on 08 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

As to the "external" versus "internal" methodologies I have never come across an instructor that even acknowledged the existence of focusing externally. Everything is about positions of various body parts.

Ask the cart girl if she experiences a lot of external focus.
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#73 Santiago Golf

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:10 PM

View PostNoTalentLefty, on 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.

You train your full swing through the short game.
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#74 wadesworld

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 02:10 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 01:58 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 08 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

As to the "external" versus "internal" methodologies I have never come across an instructor that even acknowledged the existence of focusing externally. Everything is about positions of various body parts.
Never is a strong word.  Every lesson I do has

And and that’s why I said I think you and Shawn share a lot of same philosophies but The method to implement them may be different.

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#75 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

Exactly my experience in a nutshell

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#76 bladehunter

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View Postwadesworld, on 08 July 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

But this is the lightbulb that went on for me.

Why did I have a crappy over-the-top hacker weak early release slice for most of my life?  Because I was trying to hit the ball and trying to manipulate the club to hit the ball.

Nobody ever told me to swing to a target out there.  Nobody ever told me to let the club swing with gravity, versus me swinging the club.  There's a HUGE difference. The former is what "natural athletes" and great players do.  And they often do it without realizing they're doing it. When someone told them to hit the ball over there, without thinking about it, they realized they had to release to a target out there, not release at the ball down there.  The rest of us released at the ball.

Once I experienced what it felt like to swing to a target and to let the club track its own arc via centripetal force and gravity, Wow!  I experienced sequencing, lag and compression I had never felt before. Or had only experienced as one of those rare sweet-spot swings I couldn't figure out how I did.

I played to a 7 with a swing that has a dozen serious faults and I never practiced. Anybody can get to high singles with a duct tape and rubber band swing but to go sub 5 you need to straighten out fundamental flaws that are in the DNA of it. It just gets exponentially more difficult. There's a reason why it is  statistically near impossible to become scratch if you started the game as an adult.

Lol. I just don’t buy that.  I’m special but I wouldn’t say unicorn status.  It’s just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it’s flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don’t need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That’s there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.
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#77 Nard_S

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:



Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

There's been studies done on this and they can probably be 'googled'. I've seen them. Yes, you are unicorn statistically speaking, most attempt and give up at 8-10 cap, People who start in their youth have a much higher probability to go sub 5.

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#78 bladehunter

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostSean2, on 08 July 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

View PostSingapore Joe, on 07 July 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 July 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

View PostNoTalentLefty, on 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.

The thing about developing a good short game, is one doesn't need youth, or athleticism to get one. The full swing is a bit more...complicated. :-)
I'm suffering from a serious chirrosis of faith and starting to believe that if you don't develop a good swing when you are reasonably young you never will. For those of us who picked up the game in the age of fourty or so there is no salvation no matter how fit and athletic. Keep the drive in play, struggle the ball to the vicinity of the green and hope for a few pars on decent short game, an occassional lucky birdie. Oh yes, stay positive and enjoy the game. Have fun out there. Maybe bring trekking boots the next time.

Comparing to, say, basketball. I played junior basketball and even if I have hardly touched a ball for twenty years (or is it thirty), whenever I do it instantly feels right and I can start tossing it pretty well. It's all there in the muscle memory.

Well, I didn't start playing until I turned 50...and while I have reached a majority of my goals, it hasn't been easy, and still isn't. You're right about basketball. I could take a jump shot without even thinking about it.

Basketball is maybe the single easiest sport to a guy with size and coordination on earth.  You literally can’t forget how to do it. I haven’t played In 15 years and started running the flor in scrimmages with my 10 year olds team and i still see the floor , know the footwork , and can shoot well enough that I have a hard time missing when Throwing  up balls for rebound drills. Comparing basketball to golf is sort of like comparing hand grenades to water balloons.  One requires way more focus than the other. And has dire consequences to the outcome of the game every shot. The other is pretty liberal with time off focus and had more try Again’s than a 3 year olds piñata bash.
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#79 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:


Personally, I am not missing that. What I am also adding is that the amount of time it takes for that change to become normal is variable for different people, and that individual experiences are not a point of comparison when making generalizations of the overall population. There are many people who can assimilate much faster than what many think is possible, and walking into the next lesson thinking something is going to take "X" amount of time to accomplish is not a healthy teaching habit.

Not saying you do any of this, so you know...

Like with everything, there is a distribution of 'golf learning talent,' most likely a normal distribution.  So sure there are people who learn quickly. I had a friend that picked the game up essentially as a beginner at 50 and was scratch in 3 years.  Unbelievable, but I saw it happen. No lessons, just raw talent.  

And sure, there are better and less good teaching methods.  

But you show me a random 15 index whose been playing 5 years and who is 40+ and it'll take him years to get to a 9.  You choose the teaching method and focus.  Years.
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#80 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:36 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

View Postwadesworld, on 08 July 2018 - 11:49 AM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

But this is the lightbulb that went on for me.

Why did I have a crappy over-the-top hacker weak early release slice for most of my life?  Because I was trying to hit the ball and trying to manipulate the club to hit the ball.

Nobody ever told me to swing to a target out there.  Nobody ever told me to let the club swing with gravity, versus me swinging the club.  There's a HUGE difference. The former is what "natural athletes" and great players do.  And they often do it without realizing they're doing it. When someone told them to hit the ball over there, without thinking about it, they realized they had to release to a target out there, not release at the ball down there.  The rest of us released at the ball.

Once I experienced what it felt like to swing to a target and to let the club track its own arc via centripetal force and gravity, Wow!  I experienced sequencing, lag and compression I had never felt before. Or had only experienced as one of those rare sweet-spot swings I couldn't figure out how I did.

I played to a 7 with a swing that has a dozen serious faults and I never practiced. Anybody can get to high singles with a duct tape and rubber band swing but to go sub 5 you need to straighten out fundamental flaws that are in the DNA of it. It just gets exponentially more difficult. There's a reason why it is  statistically near impossible to become scratch if you started the game as an adult.

Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

Excellent post.

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#81 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:38 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

There's been studies done on this and they can probably be 'googled'. I've seen them. Yes, you are unicorn statistically speaking, most attempt and give up at 8-10 cap, People who start in their youth have a much higher probability to go sub 5.

I started in my youth. Out in rural 'Merica.  Learned from watching farmers hit OTT slices how to be a passionate 15.  

I'll get to 5.  But it hasn't been easy and won't be the rest of the way.  Unlearning well-ingrained habits is not easy.
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#82 bladehunter

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:31 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:



Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

There's been studies done on this and they can probably be 'googled'. I've seen them. Yes, you are unicorn statistically speaking, most attempt and give up at 8-10 cap, People who start in their youth have a much higher probability to go sub 5.

Maybe true by stats. But I bet it’s due to most kids who stick with it past a year or two are atheleticaly able.  The adults who pick it up are probably far less likely to be athletic in nature .  So the age likely has little to do with it.

I’ve mentioned him 100 times. But you can see it easily with my kids Pga junior league team.  Plenty of kids there that most likely won’t stick with the game.  And if they do nearly zero chance they are single digit players.  And then you can spot the ones who just can.

Edited by bladehunter, 08 July 2018 - 04:33 PM.

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#83 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:39 PM

View Postwmblake2000, on 08 July 2018 - 03:35 PM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 02:07 PM, said:

Personally, I am not missing that. What I am also adding is that the amount of time it takes for that change to become normal is variable for different people, and that individual experiences are not a point of comparison when making generalizations of the overall population. There are many people who can assimilate much faster than what many think is possible, and walking into the next lesson thinking something is going to take "X" amount of time to accomplish is not a healthy teaching habit.

Not saying you do any of this, so you know...

Like with everything, there is a distribution of 'golf learning talent,' most likely a normal distribution.  So sure there are people who learn quickly. I had a friend that picked the game up essentially as a beginner at 50 and was scratch in 3 years.  Unbelievable, but I saw it happen. No lessons, just raw talent.  

And sure, there are better and less good teaching methods.  

But you show me a random 15 index whose been playing 5 years and who is 40+ and it'll take him years to get to a 9.  You choose the teaching method and focus.  Years.

Haha. C'mon buddy, it's golf...not a piano recital.

You could accomplish that challenge^ in half a season just by standing behind the person and whacking them on the head every time they pull driver on a tree-lined hole or fire at a sucker pin. :bigwhack:
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#84 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:44 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

There's been studies done on this and they can probably be 'googled'. I've seen them. Yes, you are unicorn statistically speaking, most attempt and give up at 8-10 cap, People who start in their youth have a much higher probability to go sub 5.

Maybe true by stats. But I bet it's due to most kids who stick with it past a year or two are atheleticaly able.  The adults who pick it up are probably far less likely to be athletic in nature .  So the age likely has little to do with it.

I've mentioned him 100 times. But you can see it easily with my kids Pga junior league team.  Plenty of kids there that most likely won't stick with the game.  And if they do nearly zero chance they are single digit players.  And then you can spot the ones who just can.

A kid at my home course went to the Masters tournament again this year to compete in the Drive, Chip, and Putt thing. His father told me that some of those kids showed up with swing coaches. lol

When you're a kid and there isn't much else to do than go to school and take golf lessons from mommy and daddy's paid instructor, you can progress pretty quickly versus some regular adult slob with a family and a job, who can only get to the range two or three times a week at best. That's why you have to take those studies with a grain of context.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 08 July 2018 - 04:45 PM.

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#85 Hawkeye77

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 04:48 PM

View PostSean2, on 08 July 2018 - 01:48 PM, said:

As to the "external" versus "internal" methodologies I have never come across an instructor that even acknowledged the existence of focusing externally. Everything is about positions of various body parts.

Having had several lessons with Monte, I can assure you there was never a discussion about specific positions of any body parts or a focus on specific positions any body parts, beyond a little more this or that in setup.

Not saying it never comes up with anyone else.

I have had lessons from others in the past that were more focused on "look at this position" or "get into this position" driven analysis, not my favorite for sure.


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#86 PorscheFan

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 05:04 PM

I guess this all depends on how you define 'slowly'.

I personally don't have massive issues with learning new motor patterns.  In fact my lesson today was about getting the fade spin out of my driver, when last year I was hitting it 'five miles from the inside'.  I tend to take golf instruction (which is often prescribed in exaggerated feelings and moves) much too literally.

I guess the key is understanding how long as an individual it takes you to learn new things, and with that knowledge, not giving up at the 11th hour.

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#87 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 05:12 PM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

There's been studies done on this and they can probably be 'googled'. I've seen them. Yes, you are unicorn statistically speaking, most attempt and give up at 8-10 cap, People who start in their youth have a much higher probability to go sub 5.

Maybe true by stats. But I bet it's due to most kids who stick with it past a year or two are atheleticaly able.  The adults who pick it up are probably far less likely to be athletic in nature .  So the age likely has little to do with it.

I've mentioned him 100 times. But you can see it easily with my kids Pga junior league team.  Plenty of kids there that most likely won't stick with the game.  And if they do nearly zero chance they are single digit players.  And then you can spot the ones who just can.

You're ignoring basic reality that people do not learn and adopt new skills in adulthood as they do when they are young. The brain is more pliable and receptive to learning and so is the body. It's scientific fact that goes well beyond golf or sports in general.

To say,"wow, I can still slam a 3 pointer, why can't you be scratch" is laughable. BTW, a stop and pop jumper is far easier to master than a 115 mph swing. The complexity of movement in a golf swing far outweighs a jump shot. My kid plays high school ball and AAU, the level of competition to get to the next level in that sport is astronomical so I have heavy respect for anyone who got anywhere with it.

There is give and take in all things. Yes, kids are more receptive to learning processes in their early years. Likewise, the reflective adult is better aware of how to create the circumstances they need to progress. The results produced by an individual in either group are subject to context. There are no guarantees either way.
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#88 DLiver

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 05:18 PM

I am always chagrined to see these helpful and interesting instruction threads devolve into these infantile pissing contests. Thanks for trying Monte.

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#89 Moshjean

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 06:01 PM

Such a great post.

This is something I have to tell myself everyday. It’s a process. One or two more drives in the fairway is progress to be happy about. One less bad chip is something to be happy about. Reducing the number of three putts is something to be happy about.

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#90 Singapore Joe

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 06:02 PM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 05:04 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 03:27 PM, said:

Lol. I just don't buy that.  I'm special but I wouldn't say unicorn status.  It's just Hitting a ball.  Some folks act like it's flying To the moon. Perfect positions and such.  Pish !  Tours are littered with imperfect positions , imperfectly positioned by Happy millionaires.

You absolutely don't need to start this game as a child.  What you need is athletic ability.  That's there from age 1- death unless injury takes it away.

There's been studies done on this and they can probably be 'googled'. I've seen them. Yes, you are unicorn statistically speaking, most attempt and give up at 8-10 cap, People who start in their youth have a much higher probability to go sub 5.

Maybe true by stats. But I bet it's due to most kids who stick with it past a year or two are atheleticaly able.  The adults who pick it up are probably far less likely to be athletic in nature .  So the age likely has little to do with it.

I've mentioned him 100 times. But you can see it easily with my kids Pga junior league team.  Plenty of kids there that most likely won't stick with the game.  And if they do nearly zero chance they are single digit players.  And then you can spot the ones who just can.

You're ignoring basic reality that people do not learn and adopt new skills in adulthood as they do when they are young. The brain is more pliable and receptive to learning and so is the body. It's scientific fact that goes well beyond golf or sports in general.

To say,"wow, I can still slam a 3 pointer, why can't you be scratch" is laughable. BTW, a stop and pop jumper is far easier to master than a 115 mph swing. The complexity of movement in a golf swing far outweighs a jump shot. My kid plays high school ball and AAU, the level of competition to get to the next level in that sport is astronomical so I have heavy respect for anyone who got anywhere with it.

There is give and take in all things. Yes, kids are more receptive to learning processes in their early years. Likewise, the reflective adult is better aware of how to create the circumstances they need to progress. The results produced by an individual in either group are subject to context. There are no guarantees either way.
I came back to write that obviously tossing a basketball and swinging a golf club are not comparable in terms of technical complexity but I have since also learned that there is no such thing as muscle memory. My regular weekday golf group is four guys, more or less my age, and we have all done competitive sports at national or international level and are all still pretty fit and athletic. Most sports come easy to us but none of can figure out golf. And by figuring out I mean developing any kind of consistent scoring around 85 or so, par is well protected from us and will always remain so. No need for USGA intervention for that.

Maybe it is for the lack of really trying. As a kid I would toss a ball all the time. Doesn't matter if it's not even a basketball, just take any ball and toss it around. The number of repetitions must have been crazy high compared to the amount of work I have put in my golf swing. Therefore, the swing never became a thing that just happens automagically but remains something that needs a lot of thinking and setting up. I got myself to just below 12 HC and that was when I took time off from work and spent a lot of time on the range and played about three times a week. Even then the major advancement came from short game, not from a major swing improvement. And then the real world kicked in again and it's back to the struggle.

Oh well, it's a Monday, will be good winter weather and I have two rounds booked this week on my favorite courses (The Dunes on Tuesday and RACV Cape Schank on Thursday). And I have just spent a lot of $$ on new gear (putter and wedges). At least the economy will thank me for that.

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