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“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”


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#31 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:03 AM

View PostWILDTHING, on 08 July 2018 - 05:12 AM, said:

I've just posted a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf where they conducted scientific tests using external vs internal focus techniques when teaching novices. She mentions that using external focus techniques (ie. not body part actions but something external to the body or an outcome) showed 'immediate better' results and that the 'external focus novices' retained what they learnt better than the other test groups.

https://soundcloud.c...r-gabriele-wulf

Were Wulf's test conducted with the same folks over a period of months to see if the changes were sustainable ? Or was it a one-time deal where she "told" them to focus on the body in one test and the target in another and they happened to hit the ball better in the 2nd test ? How did she know they were actually focusing on what she told them ?

Hardly "scientific" ...

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#32 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:18 AM

Some of you need to google “Motor pathways in the brain,” and do some more research

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#33 Cwing

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:24 AM

Interesting comments. Change can come quickly for some but not most. Lasting change vs short term is even more rare.
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#34 alfriday

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:42 AM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 08 July 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

View PostWILDTHING, on 08 July 2018 - 05:12 AM, said:

I've just posted a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf where they conducted scientific tests using external vs internal focus techniques when teaching novices. She mentions that using external focus techniques (ie. not body part actions but something external to the body or an outcome) showed 'immediate better' results and that the 'external focus novices' retained what they learnt better than the other test groups.

https://soundcloud.c...r-gabriele-wulf

Were Wulf's test conducted with the same folks over a period of months to see if the changes were sustainable ? Or was it a one-time deal where she "told" them to focus on the body in one test and the target in another and they happened to hit the ball better in the 2nd test ? How did she know they were actually focusing on what she told them ?

Hardly "scientific" ...

Wow.  How can you conclude her work is "Hardly 'scientific'...", when you admit in your post that you are totally ignorant of how the tests were done?

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#35 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:50 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

What would you have them do with it? Many people still think there is a such thing as muscle memory...

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#36 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:54 AM

View Postalfriday, on 08 July 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View PostGhost of Snead, on 08 July 2018 - 09:03 AM, said:

View PostWILDTHING, on 08 July 2018 - 05:12 AM, said:

I've just posted a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf where they conducted scientific tests using external vs internal focus techniques when teaching novices. She mentions that using external focus techniques (ie. not body part actions but something external to the body or an outcome) showed 'immediate better' results and that the 'external focus novices' retained what they learnt better than the other test groups.

https://soundcloud.c...r-gabriele-wulf

Were Wulf's test conducted with the same folks over a period of months to see if the changes were sustainable ? Or was it a one-time deal where she "told" them to focus on the body in one test and the target in another and they happened to hit the ball better in the 2nd test ? How did she know they were actually focusing on what she told them ?

Hardly "scientific" ...

Wow.  How can you conclude her work is "Hardly 'scientific'...", when you admit in your post that you are totally ignorant of how the tests were done?

Where do I say I'm totally ignorant of how the tests were done ? Maybe I already know the answers to my questions and am waiting for the opposition to chime in ?
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#37 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:58 AM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

What would you have them do with it? Many people still think there is a such thing as muscle memory...

Right and understanding how learning takes place can be even more important than what you’re learning.

When I had knee surgery last year, the PT’s told me my method of walking was terrible.

When they showed me how I should be walking, I could do it immediately.  Took me months of effort before I did it without thinking and it became my default movement.  A year later I will still fall back into old habits, especially when I’m tired.

Changing golf swing works exactly the same way.

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#38 bladehunter

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:06 AM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

Monte, just from reading your posts, I have the impression you are a great teacher with great ideas, but the notion that all change and learning has to come slowly is false, and it is a shame that people have widely accepted this trope. It is true that some people need more time than others, but it is also true that many other students learn and assimilate information very rapidly. If people (excluding our preferred WRX instructors, of course) spent as much time studying the fields of educational psychology and instructional practice as they do Trackman datasets, they would have a better idea what is possible in terms of progressing student learning.

I agree mad.  

There are exceptions.  And it’s all relative.  How long is long ?  How short is short. ?  To me a year or so isn’t that long. To others is eternity.  I took up this game at age 34.  I’m 38 now. From beginner to 0-2 handicap ( fluctuates with my putting woes ) in 2 1/2 years.  No teacher.  

But. I’m a visual learner. As in you can tell me 12 things. But I won’t get 4 of them. You can show me a 3 minute video on All 12 and I’ll get All 12.  
With a golf swing I copy things I like the look or result of.  And I’ve built a swing that works well. Working on the last pieces of the puzzle which is Driver and putter.  And I’m learning the same way.    Along the way I’ve picked up a couple mentors who recognized my potential and I have received some swing advice ( one is a Pga master ) along the way.  But more than anything mental game help.  

My point is. If you’re a 99.9 % visual learner like me and are very athletic. You can make Changes relatively quickly.  Example. I went 10 finger grip to interlock in 4 Days. 5 th day I played 18 and shot 75.    I changed my natural shot shape from a draw to a fade over a month or so period.  I’ve always hit  it both ways. But would lose control of my draw and a fade might go straight or double cross.  So I just rebuilt my takeaway and went to a fade . The mental image I use ? Vijay and jack.  If id used conventional teaching I’d still be hitting hooks .  There were several light bulb moments along the way.  I suspect that putter will be the same when it clicks. One day I’ll get it and poof there it will be.

You can’t do what you can’t do.  And you can do pretty much anything you say you can.  To one degree or another. If we tell ourselves it takes years. It will. If we don’t put in the work. It will never happen.  But if we say we can. And we do the work. How can it not ?  To the degree that our talent allows of course.

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#39 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:08 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

What would you have them do with it? Many people still think there is a such thing as muscle memory...

Right and understanding how learning takes place can be even more important than what you’re learning.

When I had knee surgery last year, the PT’s told me my method of walking was terrible.

When they showed me how I should be walking, I could do it immediately.  Took me months of effort before I did it without thinking and it became my default movement.  A year later I will still fall back into old habits, especially when I’m tired.

Changing golf swing works exactly the same way.

For some, certainly. Possibly for a good many. But it doesn't mean that lasting change cannot happen faster than what individual experience suggests.
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#40 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:16 AM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

What would you have them do with it? Many people still think there is a such thing as muscle memory...

Right and understanding how learning takes place can be even more important than what you’re learning.

When I had knee surgery last year, the PT’s told me my method of walking was terrible.

When they showed me how I should be walking, I could do it immediately.  Took me months of effort before I did it without thinking and it became my default movement.  A year later I will still fall back into old habits, especially when I’m tired.

Changing golf swing works exactly the same way.

For some, certainly. Possibly for a good many. But it doesn't mean that lasting change cannot happen faster than what individual experience suggests.

Obviosly, I have people come for a lesson and shoot their best score of the year their next round, but full trust and implementing of the change takes time...and when you hear, “I’m still _________,” and

“I can’t take it to the course yet,” every day, all day...you have to let people know scratch golf isn’t a drill and a small bucket away.

Why do you think my article on ridiculous expectations was among the most popular in the history of the site and so many people in this thread responded with thanks for being reminded it’s a process.

Immediate improvement is very common, but lasting improvement takes time and effort.


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#41 Swingman420

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:22 AM

In the reality that is golf,  most times the original post holds true.
Building any skill is a process.  Sure,  learning what’s correct for you can happen almost immediately.
That doesn’t mean it is instantly fully integrated into your game however.

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#42 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:40 AM

View PostMilkers, on 08 July 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

Many of Dan Carraher's one lesson before and after videos/photos do not agree.

Ha! I used to take a lesson from Monte then RUN to the first tee before it faded. And always played very well. It’s like the teacher is a voodoo witch doctor and casts a spell that lasts 6 hours.

Then the spell breaks and you have to rebuild it.

There’s a correlate in consciousness growth. You have a peak experience (“inspiration”) but then it fades. You then have to do the work - with that memory as a guide - to recreate the mental and somatic conditions for that state and slowly it become more permanent (“stage of development”)

I mean some swing improvement has happened quickly. But 98% has been the result of intelligent, diligent and persistent work.

The way I figure it, the alternative to patience is this endless chasing of your tail in circles of this idea then that ideas (that is, if you’re trying to improve. Not every golfer is). I did that for decades. And just wore a hole in the ground where I stood.
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#43 bladehunter

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:42 AM

Monte -

I think you are mostly correct. But I just think you can’t paint every mind with the same brush.  Just like a lot of your students will get there with time. Many will not.  No matter what.  But the idea that “ it’s a process , it takes a long time “ passifys their ego for the time being.  

Example.   I’ve been pretty public with my putting woes. And sought help from a couple really good guys here. First thing I’ve done is identify the actual issue through stats.  Then verify it isn’t mechanics.  Now it just comes to execution of the routine and results should come.  And I expect them any day now.  Yet I’m constantly bombarded with the “ just keep rolling them.  They will drop “ guy.   Which to me says “ it takes time be patient “. No.  It shouldn’t.  It isn’t a hard task.  Not compared to hitting a 220 yard 4 iron or a 3/4 lob wedge to a tucked pin.  I’ve got those shots.  I simply refuse to concede that it takes forever. It may take it in the end. But it will be because it does , not because I allow it to by conditioning my mind for a long task to begin with.  

I know I’m an odd ball but thinking it HAS to be slow is just like saying “ you can’t “ to me.

And for what it’s worth.  If I sent anyone to any instructor it would be you.  So dont take my opinions on myself and my learning disabilities as an attack on instruction.  That’s not my point.

Edited by bladehunter, 08 July 2018 - 10:43 AM.


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#44 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:46 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

But I just think you can’t paint every mind with the same brush.  

Bingo.

It was a general statement and general statements don’t apply to everyone.

...but it’s a general statement the vast majority need to hear.

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#45 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:49 AM

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

Monte -

I think you are mostly correct. But I just think you can't paint every mind with the same brush.  Just like a lot of your students will get there with time. Many will not.  No matter what.  But the idea that " it's a process , it takes a long time " passifys their ego for the time being.  

Example.   I've been pretty public with my putting woes. And sought help from a couple really good guys here. First thing I've done is identify the actual issue through stats.  Then verify it isn't mechanics.  Now it just comes to execution of the routine and results should come.  And I expect them any day now.  Yet I'm constantly bombarded with the " just keep rolling them.  They will drop " guy.   Which to me says " it takes time be patient ". No.  It shouldn't.  It isn't a hard task.  Not compared to hitting a 220 yard 4 iron or a 3/4 lob wedge to a tucked pin.  I've got those shots.  I simply refuse to concede that it takes forever. It may take it in the end. But it will be because it does , not because I allow it to by conditioning my mind for a long task to begin with.  

I know I'm an odd ball but thinking it HAS to be slow is just like saying " you can't " to me.

And for what it's worth.  If I sent anyone to any instructor it would be you.  So dont take my opinions on myself and my learning disabilities as an attack on instruction.  That's not my point.

Not speaking for Monte, but his quote about Tours pros said 12-18 months on average. Some faster, some slower.  10-15 caps with natural ability may progress faster than those without. Most people, even Tour pros, will revert to bad habits if they haven't put the time in.

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#46 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:53 AM

I remember some teacher quoted about his definition of talent. Two guys same skill level, same fix. One gets it in 5 minutes, the other in 5 years.

Obviously some people learn quicker than others, have greater kinesthetic intelligence. But average player, average talent. Takes time and smart work.
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#47 FadeFace

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 10:54 AM

Some changes can be made instantly. For example was at a company golf tourney. We’re at the range warming up guys start showing up hitting mad slices. Tell him turn stance  little more towards the slice and focus hitting the ball a little more on the inside. Bam hits a dead straight shot. Looks at me with puzzled look on his face...”wow Thanks” procedes to smash ball with old out to in over the top warp speed swing on the course. Changes and improvement can be made quickly with a swing. Keeping the Changes and improvements on the course takes time and mental training. I like too work on many things at once but really only focus on one or two of those while playing until they are consistent then start on the next one. I do agree that some people are born with skill sets that can not be easily learnd. Like art for example I can draw portraits land scapes Tag art new age..etc I was born a artist a skill that could be taught but the likely hood of teaching someone with no artistic eye these things would be next too impossible.

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#48 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:01 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:18 AM, said:

Some of you need to google "Motor pathways in the brain," and do some more research

What would you have them do with it? Many people still think there is a such thing as muscle memory...

Right and understanding how learning takes place can be even more important than what you’re learning.

When I had knee surgery last year, the PT’s told me my method of walking was terrible.

When they showed me how I should be walking, I could do it immediately.  Took me months of effort before I did it without thinking and it became my default movement.  A year later I will still fall back into old habits, especially when I’m tired.

Changing golf swing works exactly the same way.

For some, certainly. Possibly for a good many. But it doesn't mean that lasting change cannot happen faster than what individual experience suggests.

Obviosly, I have people come for a lesson and shoot their best score of the year their next round, but full trust and implementing of the change takes time...and when you hear, “I’m still _________,” and

“I can’t take it to the course yet,” every day, all day...you have to let people know scratch golf isn’t a drill and a small bucket away.

Why do you think my article on ridiculous expectations was among the most popular in the history of the site and so many people in this thread responded with thanks for being reminded it’s a process.

Immediate improvement is very common, but lasting improvement takes time and effort.

I'm not saying that sustainable change happens within a bucket of balls, but I don't think it needs to be a multi-year process either. My doctoral program was in education and instruction, and I've read tons of research on this subject. What seems clear is that most folks underestimate what is possible. Either the student lacks the personal agency to draw a certain quality out of themselves, or the instructor doesn't know how to bring it out. Either way, it doesn't necessarily mean the potential for rapid growth isn't there, and I think this is a more common reality than many seem to think it is.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 08 July 2018 - 11:03 AM.

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#49 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:10 AM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 08 July 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

Monte -

I think you are mostly correct. But I just think you can't paint every mind with the same brush.  Just like a lot of your students will get there with time. Many will not.  No matter what.  But the idea that " it's a process , it takes a long time " passifys their ego for the time being.  

Example.   I've been pretty public with my putting woes. And sought help from a couple really good guys here. First thing I've done is identify the actual issue through stats.  Then verify it isn't mechanics.  Now it just comes to execution of the routine and results should come.  And I expect them any day now.  Yet I'm constantly bombarded with the " just keep rolling them.  They will drop " guy.   Which to me says " it takes time be patient ". No.  It shouldn't.  It isn't a hard task.  Not compared to hitting a 220 yard 4 iron or a 3/4 lob wedge to a tucked pin.  I've got those shots.  I simply refuse to concede that it takes forever. It may take it in the end. But it will be because it does , not because I allow it to by conditioning my mind for a long task to begin with.  

I know I'm an odd ball but thinking it HAS to be slow is just like saying " you can't " to me.

And for what it's worth.  If I sent anyone to any instructor it would be you.  So dont take my opinions on myself and my learning disabilities as an attack on instruction.  That's not my point.

Not speaking for Monte, but his quote about Tours pros said 12-18 months on average. Some faster, some slower.  10-15 caps with natural ability may progress faster than those without. Most people, even Tour pros, will revert to bad habits if they haven't put the time in.

When I read that I can't help thinking that they still have to play on tour for a living and maybe can't make sweeping changes all at once, and that just because they are on tour doesn't mean that they aren't still slow learners. The Faldo example - it was Leadbetter...no wonder it took forever.

Just my thoughts.
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#50 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:15 AM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

View PostGhost of Snead, on 08 July 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

Monte -

I think you are mostly correct. But I just think you can't paint every mind with the same brush.  Just like a lot of your students will get there with time. Many will not.  No matter what.  But the idea that " it's a process , it takes a long time " passifys their ego for the time being.  

Example.   I've been pretty public with my putting woes. And sought help from a couple really good guys here. First thing I've done is identify the actual issue through stats.  Then verify it isn't mechanics.  Now it just comes to execution of the routine and results should come.  And I expect them any day now.  Yet I'm constantly bombarded with the " just keep rolling them.  They will drop " guy.   Which to me says " it takes time be patient ". No.  It shouldn't.  It isn't a hard task.  Not compared to hitting a 220 yard 4 iron or a 3/4 lob wedge to a tucked pin.  I've got those shots.  I simply refuse to concede that it takes forever. It may take it in the end. But it will be because it does , not because I allow it to by conditioning my mind for a long task to begin with.  

I know I'm an odd ball but thinking it HAS to be slow is just like saying " you can't " to me.

And for what it's worth.  If I sent anyone to any instructor it would be you.  So dont take my opinions on myself and my learning disabilities as an attack on instruction.  That's not my point.

Not speaking for Monte, but his quote about Tours pros said 12-18 months on average. Some faster, some slower.  10-15 caps with natural ability may progress faster than those without. Most people, even Tour pros, will revert to bad habits if they haven't put the time in.

When I read that I can't help thinking that they still have to play on tour for a living and maybe can't make sweeping changes all at once, and that just because they are on tour doesn't mean that they aren't still slow learners. The Faldo example - it was Leadbetter...no wonder it took forever.

Just my thoughts.

Maybe ... but most ams also want to play while making swing changes. And most ams don't have the time to practice to ingrain swing changes and lose patience as they believe they should be better sooner. So they jump instructors and start over.

Look at Schnee's thread as an example of how long it took someone to get changes ingrained and get better at golf. And he's still making changes ...

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#51 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:23 AM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 08 July 2018 - 11:15 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 11:10 AM, said:

View PostGhost of Snead, on 08 July 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 08 July 2018 - 10:42 AM, said:

Monte -

I think you are mostly correct. But I just think you can't paint every mind with the same brush.  Just like a lot of your students will get there with time. Many will not.  No matter what.  But the idea that " it's a process , it takes a long time " passifys their ego for the time being.  

Example.   I've been pretty public with my putting woes. And sought help from a couple really good guys here. First thing I've done is identify the actual issue through stats.  Then verify it isn't mechanics.  Now it just comes to execution of the routine and results should come.  And I expect them any day now.  Yet I'm constantly bombarded with the " just keep rolling them.  They will drop " guy.   Which to me says " it takes time be patient ". No.  It shouldn't.  It isn't a hard task.  Not compared to hitting a 220 yard 4 iron or a 3/4 lob wedge to a tucked pin.  I've got those shots.  I simply refuse to concede that it takes forever. It may take it in the end. But it will be because it does , not because I allow it to by conditioning my mind for a long task to begin with.  

I know I'm an odd ball but thinking it HAS to be slow is just like saying " you can't " to me.

And for what it's worth.  If I sent anyone to any instructor it would be you.  So dont take my opinions on myself and my learning disabilities as an attack on instruction.  That's not my point.

Not speaking for Monte, but his quote about Tours pros said 12-18 months on average. Some faster, some slower.  10-15 caps with natural ability may progress faster than those without. Most people, even Tour pros, will revert to bad habits if they haven't put the time in.

When I read that I can't help thinking that they still have to play on tour for a living and maybe can't make sweeping changes all at once, and that just because they are on tour doesn't mean that they aren't still slow learners. The Faldo example - it was Leadbetter...no wonder it took forever.

Just my thoughts.

Maybe ... but most ams also want to play while making swing changes. And most ams don't have the time to practice to ingrain swing changes and lose patience as they believe they should be better sooner. So they jump instructors and start over.

Look at Schnee's thread as an example of how long it took someone to get changes ingrained and get better at golf. And he's still making changes ...

Why shouldn't they play while making changes? Forged in fire, I say, and not hiding on the range for months at a time.

In terms of Schnee, I haven't read it, but sounds like that is how long it is taking *him* to make changes, not that they can't be made faster by others, or even that he couldn't go faster with better strategy and process.
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#52 wadesworld

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:24 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

Took me months of effort before I did it without thinking and it became my default movement.  A year later I will still fall back into old habits, especially when I’m tired.

Changing golf swing works exactly the same way.

Monte, I'm sorry but I don't agree.

In my experience, there's two ways to learn:  I'll term them external focus and internal focus with eventual discovery.

Ninety-eight percent of golf pros teach by internal focus with eventual discovery.  Why?  Because it's how they learned.  It's how their mentors taught. It's how everyone they know teaches. So they repeat the pattern.  

They teach golf by determining the swing flaws and prescribing drills to correct those swing flaws. Your hands are too inside. You're over the top.  Your right leg is straightening.  And then they tell us it will take thousands or tens of thousands of reps to "ingrain those moves."  And they're right.  Because initially, they've got the student so internally focused, so focused on body parts and mechanics, a good swing is nearly impossible once the instructor is not there.  Over time, hopefully, with enough dedication and reps, the student eventually acquires the right feel and begins doing the right motion without having to think about it.

The second group of teachers teach external focus.  The Shawn Clements and Fred Shoemakers of the world. Have you ever seen Fred Shoemaker's video where he videos students hitting the ball and then videos them throwing the club?  The difference is absolutely astounding. The former is a typical hacker, over-the-top move as they attempt to hit the ball.  The latter is a beautiful weight shift, sequence, and release.  All with a change of task.

I know it's likely you and iTeach are going to mock such teaching.  I experienced that when I tried to introduce it to my own pro. He watched politely but then told me the way to make progress is to swing around swim noodles for 3-18 months.  I'm here to tell you, external focus teaching works. Perhaps it works better for those of us who were too thick-headed, uncoordinated, or whatever to learn by the "repeat this move" method.  No, it doesn't turn you into a scratch player over night.  But it gives you hope and a path forward. Your brain is capable of amazing things if you give it the right task and get out of its way. That's easier said than done, but it does work.

I think a LOT of golf pros would benefit from incorporating this external method.  I think it would help some of their students who just aren't making progress make more progress. I'd be fascinated to hear how your thoughts would change if you spent significant time studying Shawn's material or better yet, spent some time with him. I realize that's not likely to happen as you're too busy with your own stuff, but having experienced a change in the way I think about the golf swing, I'm willing to bet you might find yourself thinking a bit differently too.  (P.S.  I think you and he teach a lot of the same concepts, just differently.  And if I were to go to a pro that was going to teach me the conventional way, it'd be you.)

Edited by wadesworld, 08 July 2018 - 11:58 AM.


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#53 wmblake2000

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:26 AM

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:


I'm not saying that sustainable change happens within a bucket of balls, but I don't think it needs to be a multi-year process either. My doctoral program was in education and instruction, and I've read tons of research on this subject. What seems clear is that most folks underestimate what is possible. Either the student lacks the personal agency to draw a certain quality out of themselves, or the instructor doesn't know how to bring it out. Either way, it doesn't necessarily mean the potential for rapid growth isn't there, and I think this is a more common reality than many seem to think it is.

It has been a multi-year process for me and my profession was learning/PhD psychology, so I come at this with some expertise.  Now if you know real shortcuts, I'd love to understand and apply them.
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#54 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:29 AM

You haven’t read the other thread, or seen me give a lesson.  I use a lot of external focus in teaching.  It’s individual to the person learning.   All golfers need both.  Some need more of one than the other.

I won’t speak for Dan of how he teaches, but I have personally witnessed him using external focus.



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#55 MadGolfer76

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:31 AM

View Postwmblake2000, on 08 July 2018 - 11:26 AM, said:

View PostMadGolfer76, on 08 July 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

I'm not saying that sustainable change happens within a bucket of balls, but I don't think it needs to be a multi-year process either. My doctoral program was in education and instruction, and I've read tons of research on this subject. What seems clear is that most folks underestimate what is possible. Either the student lacks the personal agency to draw a certain quality out of themselves, or the instructor doesn't know how to bring it out. Either way, it doesn't necessarily mean the potential for rapid growth isn't there, and I think this is a more common reality than many seem to think it is.

It has been a multi-year process for me and my profession was learning/PhD psychology, so I come at this with some expertise.  Now if you know real shortcuts, I'd love to understand and apply them.

It depends on what you are trying to improve, the processes you have tried and are currently using, and where you looking to go. I'm not talking shortcuts, just better process and approach.

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#56 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:34 AM

Some of you are missing the point.  You can have a lot of immediate learning and improvement, it takes time to stick and for it to become your primary movement.

I have had to make two drastic swing changes because of injuries the last 4 years.

In May, I made a huge change in how I started my downswing.  Went out a few weeks after a major change and almost made the US Senior Open, and drove the better better than I ever have,

My default movement is still the old one and I still have to constantly implement the new move.  I did not give up the first bad round I had.

It’s still a battle as under pressure, the old move is still there.

I am not near the new move being fully integrated.

I hit it farther and straighter, but the process is in the early stages.

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#57 Nard_S

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

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#58 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:39 AM

View Postwadesworld, on 08 July 2018 - 11:24 AM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 08 July 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

Took me months of effort before I did it without thinking and it became my default movement.  A year later I will still fall back into old habits, especially when I’m tired.

Changing golf swing works exactly the same way.

The second group of teachers teach external focus.  The Shawn Clements and Fred Shoemakers of the world. Have you ever seen Fred Shoemaker's video where he videos students hitting the ball and then videos them throwing the club?  The difference is absolutely astounding. The former is a typical hacker, over-the-top move as they attempt to hit the ball.  The latter is a beautiful weight shift, sequence, and release.  All with a change of task.


I think if you go back through all of Clement's videos, you will find him using some internal focus as well.

Edited by Ghost of Snead, 08 July 2018 - 11:40 AM.

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#59 wadesworld

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 11:49 AM

View PostNard_S, on 08 July 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Tour pros fix or improve from a base that is on much higher ground. They already adhere to sound principles and go from there. A 10-15 cap generally does not and are often ignorant of them. I thought I understood what a Rory or Snead was doing but I truly did not. Some folks by innate talent or sheer luck ingrain good things in their swings, The vast majority are off on tangents and ingraining things that pollute their capabilities. The deconstruction alone takes a long time. Just understanding what, why and how can take forever, translating it into automated subconscious movements is forever squared, Years with a mentality of continuous improvement is just plain sober and realistic.

But this is the lightbulb that went on for me.

Why did I have a crappy over-the-top hacker weak early release slice for most of my life?  Because I was trying to hit the ball and trying to manipulate the club to hit the ball.

Nobody ever told me to swing to a target out there.  Nobody ever told me to let the club swing with gravity, versus me swinging the club.  There's a HUGE difference. The former is what "natural athletes" and great players do.  And they often do it without realizing they're doing it. When someone told them to hit the ball over there, without thinking about it, they realized they had to release to a target out there, not release at the ball down there.  The rest of us released at the ball.

Once I experienced what it felt like to swing to a target and to let the club track its own arc via centripetal force and gravity, Wow!  I experienced sequencing, lag and compression I had never felt before. Or had only experienced as one of those rare sweet-spot swings I couldn't figure out how I did.

Edited by wadesworld, 08 July 2018 - 12:00 PM.


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#60 MelloYello

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 12:03 PM

I would agree that the trend towards success is (from a distance) a gradual ascension.

I think the "uplifting" complement to that--which the student would do well to keep in mind--is that success breeds success.

One bad move requires another to compensate, so as you fix what's wrong you begin to find it's easier to put all your ducks in a row. One good move invites another. Staying between on the lines, on that razor's edge, is hard to do of course. One thing goes awry and we allow ourselves to start compensating.

But from a big picture perspective, I agree that slow progress is to be expected. Better to commit to something that be tossed about by the winds of life.

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