Jump to content

Welcome. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest which does not give you access to all the great features at GolfWRX such as viewing all the images, interacting with members, access to all forums and eligiblility to win free giveaways. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

* * * * * 1 votes

“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”


168 replies to this topic

#121 ThinkingPlus

ThinkingPlus

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 1,185 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 449758
  • Joined: 12/24/2016
  • Location:South Texas
  • Handicap:0.5
GolfWRX Likes : 1213

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.

Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/ UST Recoil 680 F4
Sand Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM7 54/08 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM5 58/07 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Mid Slim 2.0
Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow

Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


1

#122 FatReed

FatReed

    FatReed

  • Unregistered
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 616 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 345469
  • Joined: 10/20/2014
GolfWRX Likes : 209

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:45 PM

View PostBurt Chance, on 09 July 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

I've gotten to the point where I've completely lost my game. It's maddening. I have no earthly idea how to get it back. I can't even grasp the concept of simple things like the takeaway anymore. If I try and watch a video on the takeaway or any other part of the swing, I can't grasp the concepts. I can't realistically afford lessons right now (I have two kids under the age of 2 and $75,000 in student loans).

I played last weekend and shot 87 with 4 triples and 4 fairways hit. The entire time i'm trying to fix myself.  I've over complicated it to the point that I've completely lost it and have been contemplating giving the game up. ( A game I've been in love with since I was 2, when my late-grandpa taught it too me).

Burt,

I get it. Most things are more enjoyable as your proficiency improves. Nonetheless, you don’t play golf for a living, so you have zero pressure to perform at any particular level.

First, at least for a while, abandon keeping score. Then, clear your mind of expectations, and change your focus. Forget about the golf swing motion, and focus on the target - on swinging to the target, and advancing the ball to target. Visualize the desired ball flight to the target. Stay relaxed and within yourself. The ball is not your target, nor what you are trying to ‘hit.’

If you execute a shot as desired, great! Enjoy the moment. If not, no worries. Enjoy the walk, and put the shot behind you. Stay relaxed and calm, with no expectations. Arrive to ball and visualize the next target, and ball flight you desire. Swing to target with a tension-free and comfortable rhythm/tempo. Never lose your focus of swinging to the target, and desired ball flight.

Will you hit bad shots? Of course, but who cares? Forget the bad, and enjoy the good. I guarantee you will have plenty of good ones!

It sounds easy. Too easy to be effective, or fun. It’s not easy. Particularly for those who have embraced the wrong focus and expectations.

Try it! What do you have to lose? I can guarantee you will have a an ‘improved’ experience!

FR


2

#123 Krt22

Krt22

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,938 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 261822
  • Joined: 07/05/2013
  • Location:East Bay
GolfWRX Likes : 2857

Posted 09 July 2018 - 03:53 PM

As someone who wasted 3 years trying to improve quickly and made the most progress in the last year working slowly on very focused elements of the swing, I can say this statement is extremely true

3

#124 Singapore Joe

Singapore Joe

    Major? Winner?

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,530 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 176066
  • Joined: 04/19/2012
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia
GolfWRX Likes : 593

Posted 09 July 2018 - 04:38 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.
I'm afraid I disagree on that one. Some people, including yours truly, can really think themselves into pretzels and end up so tangled up that getting to the actual doing never happens. Thinking is often of no use if it doesn't result in decisions and action. There are times when one needs to go on intuition and stop analyzing.

Playing golf for an average hacker may be one of those times. How often do you see a guy take an eternity in getting ready for a shot and then totally screw it up? I do that if I start over-thinking the shot (ergo: waiting is cryptonite for the game). Better just walk to the ball, check the required distance from the GPS watch and whack the ball. Trust the range sessions to have produced sufficient swing mechanics for that. For good golfers this is probably different as you guys can reasonably expect to achieve more than hit a basic shot to more or less the distance and direction desired.

There are cases where bad thinking equals to too much thinking.

On the topic of change, there's an interesting even if a bit on the oldish side book on the difficulty of any change. Makes quite an interesting argument but gets a bit too deep to the Freudian world (to my liking) when discussing the deep inhibitors in the later parts of the book. Disclaimer: I'm a computer scientist so that book is far from my area of expertise and it seems that people who are actually trained in development psychology find it a bit thin on substance.
https://www.goodread...unity-to-change
TM R11S 10.5 HZRDUS Yellow 65
TM R11S 5w Fujikura Speeder Evo II FW
[ Callaway Apex UT 18, Recoil 95 || TM R15 3H ]
[ Callaway Apex Pro 3i || TM R15 4H ]

Callaway Apex Pro 4-9,P Recoil 110
Callaway MD4 54, 58
Ping Sigma G Kinloch C

4

#125 ThinkingPlus

ThinkingPlus

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 1,185 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 449758
  • Joined: 12/24/2016
  • Location:South Texas
  • Handicap:0.5
GolfWRX Likes : 1213

Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:18 PM

View PostSingapore Joe, on 09 July 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.
I'm afraid I disagree on that one. Some people, including yours truly, can really think themselves into pretzels and end up so tangled up that getting to the actual doing never happens. Thinking is often of no use if it doesn't result in decisions and action. There are times when one needs to go on intuition and stop analyzing.

Playing golf for an average hacker may be one of those times. How often do you see a guy take an eternity in getting ready for a shot and then totally screw it up? I do that if I start over-thinking the shot (ergo: waiting is cryptonite for the game). Better just walk to the ball, check the required distance from the GPS watch and whack the ball. Trust the range sessions to have produced sufficient swing mechanics for that. For good golfers this is probably different as you guys can reasonably expect to achieve more than hit a basic shot to more or less the distance and direction desired.

There are cases where bad thinking equals to too much thinking.

On the topic of change, there's an interesting even if a bit on the oldish side book on the difficulty of any change. Makes quite an interesting argument but gets a bit too deep to the Freudian world (to my liking) when discussing the deep inhibitors in the later parts of the book. Disclaimer: I'm a computer scientist so that book is far from my area of expertise and it seems that people who are actually trained in development psychology find it a bit thin on substance.
https://www.goodread...unity-to-change
OK. I understand what you are saying.  I think root cause is more about indecision and commitment. Too much information and analysis sort of gets blamed though. I take in all the information available, analyze, decide, and commit. Most of the time it works.  Sometimes I gather bad info or make a poor analysis. Committing fully to the decision is always a challenge.  Getting it all done in a timely fashion is also a challenge.  Ultimately whether you maximize or minimize the thinking, being decisive and confident is absolutely necessary to hitting good golf shots.

Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/ UST Recoil 680 F4
Sand Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM7 54/08 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM5 58/07 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Mid Slim 2.0
Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow

5

#126 Obee

Obee

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,142 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 72306
  • Joined: 01/09/2009
  • Location:Riverside, CA, USA
  • Handicap:+1
GolfWRX Likes : 4367

Posted 09 July 2018 - 05:20 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 July 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

A golfwrx regular just posted this on my Facebook.

Genius in it's simplicty.

I like that, except when it's NOT true. LOL

For instance: If I'm talking about a quick, on-course "improvement," it doesn't need to be slowly at all. Sometimes we are just out of sorts in a particular part of the game and a "quick fix" absolutely works. In putting, quite frequently, actually. Ball position creeping too far back? Wow, I had totally not noticed that. Need to move it a bit more forward. All the sudden, putting feels easy again.

That kind of thing.

But I will completely agree with you regarding actual improvement in one's overall game. THAT kind of change always happens slowly.
PING G400 Max - Tour 65 S
Callaway Rogue 15* 3W
Titleist H1 19* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Titleist H1 23* Diamana S+ Blue 70hy
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Don Wood Custom Grind 47* PW
Don Wood Custom Grind 51* GW
Titleist "Vokey Design" 56* K Grind
Mizuno S18 60/7 LW
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 78.5*)

6

#127 bladehunter

bladehunter

    I have a great profile! Especially from the side !

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,569 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291449
  • Joined: 01/12/2014
  • Location:south carolina
  • Handicap:NONE
GolfWRX Likes : 19055

Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:03 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.

Lol. Depends on if you answer your own stupid questions or not and complete the circle.

Edit -
And YOU know I’m talking about MY stupid questions.  Just to be clear for the on lookers. Lol.

Edited by bladehunter, 09 July 2018 - 06:05 PM.


7

#128 bladehunter

bladehunter

    I have a great profile! Especially from the side !

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 20,569 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 291449
  • Joined: 01/12/2014
  • Location:south carolina
  • Handicap:NONE
GolfWRX Likes : 19055

Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:12 PM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

View PostSingapore Joe, on 09 July 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.
I'm afraid I disagree on that one. Some people, including yours truly, can really think themselves into pretzels and end up so tangled up that getting to the actual doing never happens. Thinking is often of no use if it doesn't result in decisions and action. There are times when one needs to go on intuition and stop analyzing.

Playing golf for an average hacker may be one of those times. How often do you see a guy take an eternity in getting ready for a shot and then totally screw it up? I do that if I start over-thinking the shot (ergo: waiting is cryptonite for the game). Better just walk to the ball, check the required distance from the GPS watch and whack the ball. Trust the range sessions to have produced sufficient swing mechanics for that. For good golfers this is probably different as you guys can reasonably expect to achieve more than hit a basic shot to more or less the distance and direction desired.

There are cases where bad thinking equals to too much thinking.

On the topic of change, there's an interesting even if a bit on the oldish side book on the difficulty of any change. Makes quite an interesting argument but gets a bit too deep to the Freudian world (to my liking) when discussing the deep inhibitors in the later parts of the book. Disclaimer: I'm a computer scientist so that book is far from my area of expertise and it seems that people who are actually trained in development psychology find it a bit thin on substance.
https://www.goodread...unity-to-change
OK. I understand what you are saying.  I think root cause is more about indecision and commitment. Too much information and analysis sort of gets blamed though. I take in all the information available, analyze, decide, and commit. Most of the time it works.  Sometimes I gather bad info or make a poor analysis. Committing fully to the decision is always a challenge.  Getting it all done in a timely fashion is also a challenge.  Ultimately whether you maximize or minimize the thinking, being decisive and confident is absolutely necessary to hitting good golf shots.

Yes - that is what I meant with the thinking comment.  No such thing as too much info.  Just because you have it doesn’t mean you have to let it influence the decision.  At least that’s how I see it.

8

#129 Barfolomew

Barfolomew

    #worstWRXer

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,072 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 379468
  • Joined: 06/07/2015
  • Location:Cruisin Sunset
GolfWRX Likes : 443

Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:17 PM

Used to shoot in the 80s when I was 25.......didnt play for 20 years.....came back went from hack to scratch in about 8 months.  I wouldnt call that slow as I was passing up better players every month,  no lessons/monitors/fittings all credit goes to mental game as physically weaker then when I was 25.  Golf is a mental sport once basics are figured out.... top 1000 players in world all have gorgeous swings so what separates them...braaaains
G30 LS
M2 BMW
XR 4 Hybrid
OnOffOnAgain Kuros
Cleveland Blob
Square Strike
SeeMore Butts

9

#130 wadesworld

wadesworld

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 669 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 204425
  • Joined: 09/24/2012
  • Location:Nashville, TN
GolfWRX Likes : 493

Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:20 PM

View PostBurt Chance, on 09 July 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

I've gotten to the point where I've completely lost my game. It's maddening. I have no earthly idea how to get it back. I can't even grasp the concept of simple things like the takeaway anymore. If I try and watch a video on the takeaway or any other part of the swing, I can't grasp the concepts. I can't realistically afford lessons right now (I have two kids under the age of 2 and $75,000 in student loans).

I played last weekend and shot 87 with 4 triples and 4 fairways hit. The entire time i'm trying to fix myself.  I've over complicated it to the point that I've completely lost it and have been contemplating giving the game up. ( A game I've been in love with since I was 2, when my late-grandpa taught it too me).

I have no idea what you shot before, but an 87 isn't bad at all.

That said, in your situation, I'd highly advise looking at the Shawn Clement material. He's got about 400 free videos, and he's all about making golf less complicated. Perfect for your situation.

Feel fee to hit me up via PM if you're not understanding concepts or want direction on which videos address specific areas.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


10

#131 leekgolf

leekgolf

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,174 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 1950
  • Joined: 06/26/2005
  • Location:Ohio
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 102

Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:50 PM

View Postwmblake2000, on 09 July 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

View Postterrell75, on 09 July 2018 - 01:25 AM, said:

I see a lot of commentary about focus vs change vs time... etc.

There is a difference between being able to perform an action one time, several times, and whenever you choose.

Each represents a different level of golf. Even at the highest level many golfers hit the ball one way (low, draw, fade, etc). Quite a few can call up a particular shot from their “bank”, but they have had to work to build their “bank” accounts. Realizing a limitation on a certain account may result in a desire to transfer funds to a different account with a greater potential.

Here is my point, to support Monte’s general statement. Ingrained change is physiological. The focus some of you refer to is not a magical energy, it is a physical sequence (neurons, nerves, muscles, etc.... all physical things).

I recommend anyone who wants to learn more about why certain golfers can adapt quickly while others struggle, read a book called The Talent Code. It will explain many things from a scientific perspective, and maybe shed some light on this topic. Anyone wonder why a newborn horse can stand and run in a matter of hours after birth, but a newborn human cannot and takes several months to develop these abilities? Read the book, get smarter (grow more neurons and strengthen neural pathways).

I was thinking about Talent Code as I thought about this thread. I was especially recalling a story about this music student of average talent who, one day, out of the blue, was utterly more focused and playing way above her normal level. Then next time she was back to regular performance.

It is one thing to have a peak performance. It is entirely another to make that peak performance become the baseline.

The other thing I thought was Talent Code talked about the cultural/environmental support that all led to the motivation behind all that focused practice. Part of the real challenge for most golfers is change is, indeed, hard, all those comments to contrary notwithstanding. The key is sustaining motivation and enthusiasm through the process so that you stick with it. That’s the critical element.

I too thought of the Talent Code when I started to read this thread, then when Monte posted about motor pathways myelin popped into my head.

11

#132 Krt22

Krt22

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,938 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 261822
  • Joined: 07/05/2013
  • Location:East Bay
GolfWRX Likes : 2857

Posted 09 July 2018 - 06:54 PM

View PostBurt Chance, on 09 July 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:

I've gotten to the point where I've completely lost my game. It's maddening. I have no earthly idea how to get it back. I can't even grasp the concept of simple things like the takeaway anymore. If I try and watch a video on the takeaway or any other part of the swing, I can't grasp the concepts. I can't realistically afford lessons right now (I have two kids under the age of 2 and $75,000 in student loans).

I played last weekend and shot 87 with 4 triples and 4 fairways hit. The entire time i'm trying to fix myself.  I've over complicated it to the point that I've completely lost it and have been contemplating giving the game up. ( A game I've been in love with since I was 2, when my late-grandpa taught it too me).

This is exactly where the improve slowly part comes into play. Part of improving slowly is learning to break down and understand your own swing, what your major swing faults are, what compensations you do accordingly to get the ball in play, and figuring out what you need to do in order to fix the faults (some can do this solo, others need professional help). From all that stems the actual improvement in play.

I personally bought too much into results, and based my improvement purely on what the ball was doing all while ingraining some very bad habits and compensations. It was great seeing the ball flight I wanted...until it wasn't, I over cooked it, and my scores inflated

Second round I was more diligent, such that I know my swing and all of its faults, if it starts to get ugly on the course I generally know why and what I needs to be done to right the ship and salvage the round. Without this knowledge it can be a mess, trying new/different changes while on the tee box typically results in something awful.

Edited by Krt22, 09 July 2018 - 06:55 PM.


12

#133 ThinkingPlus

ThinkingPlus

    Major Winner

  • ClubWRX Charter Members
  • 1,185 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 449758
  • Joined: 12/24/2016
  • Location:South Texas
  • Handicap:0.5
GolfWRX Likes : 1213

Posted 09 July 2018 - 07:07 PM

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

View PostSingapore Joe, on 09 July 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.
I'm afraid I disagree on that one. Some people, including yours truly, can really think themselves into pretzels and end up so tangled up that getting to the actual doing never happens. Thinking is often of no use if it doesn't result in decisions and action. There are times when one needs to go on intuition and stop analyzing.

Playing golf for an average hacker may be one of those times. How often do you see a guy take an eternity in getting ready for a shot and then totally screw it up? I do that if I start over-thinking the shot (ergo: waiting is cryptonite for the game). Better just walk to the ball, check the required distance from the GPS watch and whack the ball. Trust the range sessions to have produced sufficient swing mechanics for that. For good golfers this is probably different as you guys can reasonably expect to achieve more than hit a basic shot to more or less the distance and direction desired.

There are cases where bad thinking equals to too much thinking.

On the topic of change, there's an interesting even if a bit on the oldish side book on the difficulty of any change. Makes quite an interesting argument but gets a bit too deep to the Freudian world (to my liking) when discussing the deep inhibitors in the later parts of the book. Disclaimer: I'm a computer scientist so that book is far from my area of expertise and it seems that people who are actually trained in development psychology find it a bit thin on substance.
https://www.goodread...unity-to-change
OK. I understand what you are saying.  I think root cause is more about indecision and commitment. Too much information and analysis sort of gets blamed though. I take in all the information available, analyze, decide, and commit. Most of the time it works.  Sometimes I gather bad info or make a poor analysis. Committing fully to the decision is always a challenge.  Getting it all done in a timely fashion is also a challenge.  Ultimately whether you maximize or minimize the thinking, being decisive and confident is absolutely necessary to hitting good golf shots.

Yes - that is what I meant with the thinking comment.  No such thing as too much info.  Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to let it influence the decision.  At least that's how I see it.
Yep.  You synthesize an answer based on the available information weighted accordingly.  For example I watch every putt hit by everyone in my group.  I don't, however, weight each result 100%. You have to watch the stroke as well as the resulting ball motion.  Poorly struck putts provide green reading misinformation. Weight that information 100% at your peril!
Driver: Callaway GBB Epic 9° w/Project X HZRDUS T800 65 gm 6.0 flex
3W: Callaway Rogue w/Project X Evenflow 5.5 Graphite R-flex
Hybrids: Callaway Apex 3h, 4h w/MR Kuro Kage 80HY S-flex
Irons: Maltby TS-1 5i-GW w/ UST Recoil 680 F4
Sand Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM7 54/08 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
Lob Wedge: Titleist Vokey SM5 58/07 w/True Temper XP95 R-Flex
Putter: Scotty Cameron Futura X w/Super Stroke Mid Slim 2.0
Ball: Titleist AVX in yellow

13

#134 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,204 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 3189

Posted 09 July 2018 - 07:09 PM

Haha. Simple initial premise = 7 pages.
Ping GMax 400 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Royal Collection 3, 4 h
Royal Collection 5-W
RomaRo Pro 3-W
TM P790 4-AW
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 54, 58
Cameron Futura 5W

If you see any more new irons before 2020, call the paramedics because my wife will have seriously injured me

14

#135 MadGolfer76

MadGolfer76

    Admiration is the state furthest from understanding.

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,111 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 89700
  • Joined: 07/26/2009
  • Location:Maine
GolfWRX Likes : 10327

Posted 09 July 2018 - 07:24 PM

View Postwmblake2000, on 09 July 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

Haha. Simple initial premise = 7 pages.

Simple, and probably fun to discuss over beers at the end of the round when deep thought is not required, but in all things, the truth is a little more involved than that.

Mizuno ST-180 10.5/Mitsubishi Tensei Blue 60s
Mizuno JPX 900 15/Fujikura Speeder 661s
Mizuno Mp-54 3-Pw/Dynamic Gold s300
Mizuno T7 50, 54, 58/Dynamic Gold s300
Scotty Cameron Futura X7
Srixon Z-Star

WITB

15

#136 Singapore Joe

Singapore Joe

    Major? Winner?

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,530 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 176066
  • Joined: 04/19/2012
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia
GolfWRX Likes : 593

Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:22 AM

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

View PostSingapore Joe, on 09 July 2018 - 04:38 PM, said:

View PostThinkingPlus, on 09 July 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

View Postbladehunter, on 09 July 2018 - 10:12 AM, said:

Is there a such thing as thinking too much?
No. Thinking poorly can be an issue.
I'm afraid I disagree on that one. Some people, including yours truly, can really think themselves into pretzels and end up so tangled up that getting to the actual doing never happens. Thinking is often of no use if it doesn't result in decisions and action. There are times when one needs to go on intuition and stop analyzing.

Playing golf for an average hacker may be one of those times. How often do you see a guy take an eternity in getting ready for a shot and then totally screw it up? I do that if I start over-thinking the shot (ergo: waiting is cryptonite for the game). Better just walk to the ball, check the required distance from the GPS watch and whack the ball. Trust the range sessions to have produced sufficient swing mechanics for that. For good golfers this is probably different as you guys can reasonably expect to achieve more than hit a basic shot to more or less the distance and direction desired.

There are cases where bad thinking equals to too much thinking.

On the topic of change, there's an interesting even if a bit on the oldish side book on the difficulty of any change. Makes quite an interesting argument but gets a bit too deep to the Freudian world (to my liking) when discussing the deep inhibitors in the later parts of the book. Disclaimer: I'm a computer scientist so that book is far from my area of expertise and it seems that people who are actually trained in development psychology find it a bit thin on substance.
https://www.goodread...unity-to-change
OK. I understand what you are saying.  I think root cause is more about indecision and commitment. Too much information and analysis sort of gets blamed though. I take in all the information available, analyze, decide, and commit. Most of the time it works.  Sometimes I gather bad info or make a poor analysis. Committing fully to the decision is always a challenge.  Getting it all done in a timely fashion is also a challenge.  Ultimately whether you maximize or minimize the thinking, being decisive and confident is absolutely necessary to hitting good golf shots.

Let's hypothetically assume that each shot has a landing area which is an estimated probability distribution on where the shot will land. Then there is the shot shape, spin and all that but basically all that can be worked into the probability distribution. It is safe to say that for good golfers the area of the probability distribution is considerably small and for less than stellar golfers the area is quite large - the longer the shot the larger the area. This is fairly obvious, good golfers aim at very precisely defined landing areas. Average golfers just want the ball into a general area.

With this in mind, I would argue that difficult shots (i.e. high risk shots in which a considerable proportion of the expected landing area is covered by places one does not want to end up) are harder to commit to as there are all sorts of lingering thoughts in the back of the head. What if I miss and end up in this trouble or that trouble. Those thoughts occur because one has to consider excessive amount of information which causes hesitation and that hesitation often results in a poor shot. In fact, they probably are the cause of a poor shot. If one removes that information, e.g. aims to a safe part of the green where it's all sunshine and lollipops, no bunkers and dragons on, say, 90% of the shots, the shot is a lot likely to be successful because one can be confident of the outcome.

This is a ridiculously complicated way of saying that too much information results in poor commitment and one should remove hesitation by good course management (i.e. removing unnecessary trouble which is information in this case) as hesitation kills shots. Which is basically the same thing you say about committing to shot.
TM R11S 10.5 HZRDUS Yellow 65
TM R11S 5w Fujikura Speeder Evo II FW
[ Callaway Apex UT 18, Recoil 95 || TM R15 3H ]
[ Callaway Apex Pro 3i || TM R15 4H ]

Callaway Apex Pro 4-9,P Recoil 110
Callaway MD4 54, 58
Ping Sigma G Kinloch C

16

#137 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,840 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 2205

Posted 10 July 2018 - 03:44 PM

Good thread, good topic.

I'm into year 3, so I buy in to thread title and over time my thoughts has distilled in this manner. . There are three interdependent aspects that need co-development for long haul improvement.

1) The mental awareness and maturation of mental state.Folks in the "proper focus" camp reside here. Game play resides here.
2) The physical evolution of the player's swing. Implementing sound mechanics to a sub conscious level. Often this means starting in slow thinking mode and using thousands of reps to shed old and ingrain new movements that have new triggers and feels.
3) The intellectual grasp of the what, why & how of advanced swing mechanics. A sound understanding of principles and commonalities and how you rate to them

#3 can take an awful long time and there's a good chance of being "too smart by a half" on it for much of time. But the internet, videos, computer analysis have done a lot of good advancing the general knowledge base more so than say 20 years ago.

#1 is a skill set that warrants a lot of respect and attention and most solid players have a good measure of development with this. It often separates men from boys.

#2 is the plodding cumbersome elephant that we are talking over. Swing development is like child development. Proper, early stimulation pays dividends later in life. Some are fortunate there, I've played with sub 5 guys, some were natural, some cultivated it as youth, some were 5th degree karate masters, each and all were blessed in some way. I watched "Golf My Way", took away all the wrong lessons from it and spent 25 years ingraining stupidity.If it takes another 5 (it won't) so be it.

Personally at one time #1 was in full fire but was hampered by #2, which in turn was hampered by #3. Taken years to pull up #2 & #3 and #1 is definitely the last to arrive back in full form but I'm patient, it all remains fun.

17

#138 FlyingLaw1

FlyingLaw1

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 651 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 468870
  • Joined: 05/23/2017
  • Location:MO
  • Handicap:2.9
GolfWRX Likes : 211

Posted 10 July 2018 - 04:29 PM

For me... Its not the improving slowly. It's the retraction that comes with beginning a major change. Nothing I've experienced has taught me more about perseverance quite like a swing change!
GO DAWGS

18

#139 jekato

jekato

    Member

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 92 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 504158
  • Joined: 06/08/2018
  • Location:usa
GolfWRX Likes : 23

Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:31 PM

A Navy SEAL discussing their approach in addressing new techniques, especially during the recent Thai cave rescue: "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". Good stuff, the last extraction took 2 hours less time than the first.

Edited by jekato, 10 July 2018 - 05:32 PM.

The ultimate judge of your swing is the flight of the ball.  Ben Hogan

19

#140 FullOfBrushMan

FullOfBrushMan

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 611 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 251068
  • Joined: 05/17/2013
  • Location:Connecticut
GolfWRX Likes : 195

Posted 10 July 2018 - 05:49 PM

View Postjekato, on 10 July 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

A Navy SEAL discussing their approach in addressing new techniques, especially during the recent Thai cave rescue: "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". Good stuff, the last extraction took 2 hours less time than the first.
Love that reference.  That being said being in the right environment cuts that time drastically.  Which when applied to golf is extremely hard to be in.


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

20

#141 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,204 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 3189

Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:28 AM

View PostNard_S, on 10 July 2018 - 03:44 PM, said:

Good thread, good topic.

I'm into year 3, so I buy in to thread title and over time my thoughts has distilled in this manner. . There are three interdependent aspects that need co-development for long haul improvement.

1) The mental awareness and maturation of mental state.Folks in the "proper focus" camp reside here. Game play resides here.
2) The physical evolution of the player's swing. Implementing sound mechanics to a sub conscious level. Often this means starting in slow thinking mode and using thousands of reps to shed old and ingrain new movements that have new triggers and feels.
3) The intellectual grasp of the what, why & how of advanced swing mechanics. A sound understanding of principles and commonalities and how you rate to them

#3 can take an awful long time and there's a good chance of being "too smart by a half" on it for much of time. But the internet, videos, computer analysis have done a lot of good advancing the general knowledge base more so than say 20 years ago.

#1 is a skill set that warrants a lot of respect and attention and most solid players have a good measure of development with this. It often separates men from boys.

#2 is the plodding cumbersome elephant that we are talking over. Swing development is like child development. Proper, early stimulation pays dividends later in life. Some are fortunate there, I've played with sub 5 guys, some were natural, some cultivated it as youth, some were 5th degree karate masters, each and all were blessed in some way. I watched "Golf My Way", took away all the wrong lessons from it and spent 25 years ingraining stupidity.If it takes another 5 (it won't) so be it.

Personally at one time #1 was in full fire but was hampered by #2, which in turn was hampered by #3. Taken years to pull up #2 & #3 and #1 is definitely the last to arrive back in full form but I'm patient, it all remains fun.

Great points. The baseline of understanding about the swing (and playing the game) has a lot to do with a person’s speed of development. I can grasp and improve my swing now MUCH more rapidly and efficiently now than five years ago. There’s still the need for reps to gain trust (=unconscious competence) but that process is now much quicker.


Ping GMax 400 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Royal Collection 3, 4 h
Royal Collection 5-W
RomaRo Pro 3-W
TM P790 4-AW
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 54, 58
Cameron Futura 5W

If you see any more new irons before 2020, call the paramedics because my wife will have seriously injured me

21

#142 nemoblack

nemoblack

    Advanced

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 267 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 2795
  • Joined: 07/15/2005
GolfWRX Likes : 183

Posted 12 July 2018 - 12:40 AM

I don't totally buy the premise of this thread's title. I generally observe periods of very rapid improvement, followed by longer periods of plateau. Overall, it might be "slow" (years), but those periods of improvement can be quite dramatically fast. This pattern seems to be the case with most skills, be it athletic or otherwise.

22

#143 bazinky

bazinky

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,607 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33287
  • Joined: 06/29/2007
GolfWRX Likes : 724

Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:24 AM

View Postnemoblack, on 12 July 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't totally buy the premise of this thread's title. I generally observe periods of very rapid improvement, followed by longer periods of plateau. Overall, it might be "slow" (years), but those periods of improvement can be quite dramatically fast. This pattern seems to be the case with most skills, be it athletic or otherwise.

From my golf experience, I've noticed that there isn't always a exact correlation in improvement in golf skills and improvement in scoring. Personally, I've found my overall skill level improves pretty gradually, but it often takes a while for it to "click" in terms of scoring, if that makes any sense.

That said, there is also a distinction between refining and improving something you are already pretty doing well, and correcting something you were doing fundamentally wrong. Correcting a fundamental mistake can lead to extremely rapid improvement in people with good athletic skills.
Cobra LTD @10.5 - UST Elements Chrome 6F4
Titleist 917 F2 16.5 @C1 (15.75) - MRC D+ Limited 80 S
Callaway X2Hot Pro @20 - Aldila Tour Green 75 S
Callaway X2Hot Pro @23 - Aldila Tour Green 75 S
Ping i20 5-UW - KBS Tour S - Yellow Dot
Ping Glide 54 SS - CFS Wedge S - Blue Dot
Ping Glide 58 ES - CFS Wedge S - Black Dot
Taylormade Spider Tour Red Half-Sightline - 35"

23

#144 naval2006

naval2006

    Tour Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 905 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 265866
  • Joined: 07/23/2013
  • Location:Argentina
  • Handicap:4
GolfWRX Likes : 377

Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:34 AM

If you took up the game a couple years ago at 40 you have a real chance to improve if you work hard.  You can't imagine how hard it is to have played very well when you were young and your game slowly and inevitably deteriorates to the point you've got to accept this or give up.

24

#145 MrJones

MrJones

    Waiting for the weekend...

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,721 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 18450
  • Joined: 08/26/2006
  • Location:Alabama
  • Handicap:6.3
GolfWRX Likes : 1022

Posted 12 July 2018 - 10:52 AM

View PostBarfolomew, on 09 July 2018 - 06:17 PM, said:

Used to shoot in the 80s when I was 25.......didnt play for 20 years.....came back went from hack to scratch in about 8 months.  I wouldnt call that slow as I was passing up better players every month,  no lessons/monitors/fittings all credit goes to mental game as physically weaker then when I was 25.  Golf is a mental sport once basics are figured out.... top 1000 players in world all have gorgeous swings so what separates them...braaaains

How often were you playing/practicing during that 8 month stretch?

Cobra Bio Cell Pro
Cobra Bio Cell+ 3 wood
TM RAC MB 3-PW
Mizuno MP-R 54*, 60*   
Odyssey White Ice 1

25

#146 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,204 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 3189

Posted 12 July 2018 - 10:56 AM

View Postnemoblack, on 12 July 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't totally buy the premise of this thread's title. I generally observe periods of very rapid improvement, followed by longer periods of plateau. Overall, it might be "slow" (years), but those periods of improvement can be quite dramatically fast. This pattern seems to be the case with most skills, be it athletic or otherwise.

I have also seen this.. you build and build and build and finally, in a moment, it clicks.

Meanwhile, though, when sustained motivation is so important, maybe the single most important thing I learned from Monte was improvement is measured by seeing new move done better 1/10 then 3/10 then 6/10.... this incremental progress is the ‘build’ phase.
Ping GMax 400 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Royal Collection 3, 4 h
Royal Collection 5-W
RomaRo Pro 3-W
TM P790 4-AW
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 54, 58
Cameron Futura 5W

If you see any more new irons before 2020, call the paramedics because my wife will have seriously injured me

26

#147 Krt22

Krt22

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,938 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 261822
  • Joined: 07/05/2013
  • Location:East Bay
GolfWRX Likes : 2857

Posted 12 July 2018 - 11:27 AM

View Postwmblake2000, on 12 July 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

View Postnemoblack, on 12 July 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't totally buy the premise of this thread's title. I generally observe periods of very rapid improvement, followed by longer periods of plateau. Overall, it might be "slow" (years), but those periods of improvement can be quite dramatically fast. This pattern seems to be the case with most skills, be it athletic or otherwise.

I have also seen this.. you build and build and build and finally, in a moment, it clicks.

Meanwhile, though, when sustained motivation is so important, maybe the single most important thing I learned from Monte was improvement is measured by seeing new move done better 1/10 then 3/10 then 6/10.... this incremental progress is the ‘build’ phase.

Indeed, most folks dont just go to the range, have something click, and improve dramatically.

Those who have a dramatic break-through likely have put in lots of reps, lots of time, slowly fixing all the little parts, and then finally put it all together and see the fruits of their efforts. I've shaved almost 9 strokes off my index in the last year but I don't think that would happened without all the wheel spinning I did for the year prior.Even those I didn't see the results on the course, now looking back it still had legitimate value

27

#148 wmblake2000

wmblake2000

    Hall of Fame

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,204 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 33930
  • Joined: 07/07/2007
  • Location:Los Angeles
GolfWRX Likes : 3189

Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:37 PM

View PostKrt22, on 12 July 2018 - 11:27 AM, said:

View Postwmblake2000, on 12 July 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

View Postnemoblack, on 12 July 2018 - 12:40 AM, said:

I don't totally buy the premise of this thread's title. I generally observe periods of very rapid improvement, followed by longer periods of plateau. Overall, it might be "slow" (years), but those periods of improvement can be quite dramatically fast. This pattern seems to be the case with most skills, be it athletic or otherwise.

I have also seen this.. you build and build and build and finally, in a moment, it clicks.

Meanwhile, though, when sustained motivation is so important, maybe the single most important thing I learned from Monte was improvement is measured by seeing new move done better 1/10 then 3/10 then 6/10.... this incremental progress is the ‘build’ phase.

Indeed, most folks dont just go to the range, have something click, and improve dramatically.

Those who have a dramatic break-through likely have put in lots of reps, lots of time, slowly fixing all the little parts, and then finally put it all together and see the fruits of their efforts. I've shaved almost 9 strokes off my index in the last year but I don't think that would happened without all the wheel spinning I did for the year prior.Even those I didn't see the results on the course, now looking back it still had legitimate value

My favorite writer re consciousness development (Ken Wilber) says that breakthru's in awareness are also leaps vs continuous incremental.  I guess you keep pushing on a new neural pathway until finally it forms, for both awareness and golf improvement.
Ping GMax 400 10.5
Callaway Epic Hybrid 2h
Royal Collection 3, 4 h
Royal Collection 5-W
RomaRo Pro 3-W
TM P790 4-AW
Fourteen mt28v3 50, 54, 58
Cameron Futura 5W

If you see any more new irons before 2020, call the paramedics because my wife will have seriously injured me

28

#149 Nard_S

Nard_S

    Major Winner

  • Advanced Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,840 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 335269
  • Joined: 08/21/2014
  • Location:Norwalk, CT
  • Handicap:9
GolfWRX Likes : 2205

Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:54 PM

View Postwmblake2000, on 12 July 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:


My favorite writer re consciousness development (Ken Wilber) says that breakthru's in awareness are also leaps vs continuous incremental. I guess you keep pushing on a new neural pathway until finally it forms, for both awareness and golf improvement.

Yes, find that to be very true. It's often right in front of your nose too, then you go "Aha!"

29

#150 MonteScheinblum

MonteScheinblum

    Rebellion Golf

  • Sponsors
  • 18,112 posts
  •  
  • Member #: 94238
  • Joined: 09/12/2009
  • Location:Southern California
GolfWRX Likes : 11308

Posted 12 July 2018 - 03:46 PM

Some have misunderstood slow as meaning you can’t make a leap in scores with a simple improvement.  That’s not what was meant by the phrase or me.

Change that sticks and is done without much thought is this...

from "unconscious incompetence" to "conscious incompetence" to "conscious competence" to "unconscious competence".


Remove This Advertisement Viewing As Guest

    GolfWRX Forums

    Advertisement


Wanna get rid of this ugly yellow box? And remove other annoying "stuff" in between posts? Create a FREE GolfWRX account here.

30



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

GolfWRX Sponsors