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“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly or not at all”


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#1 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 12:19 PM

A golfwrx regular just posted this on my Facebook.

Genius in it’s simplicty.


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#2 benhays98

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 01:21 PM

Improving slowly; this is the hardest concept I've ever been forced to accept in my approach to the game.
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#3 gatorMD

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 01:26 PM

man truer words, eve the greatest take months to change something.....
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#4 Sean2

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 02:29 PM

It's a difficult concept for many to grasp as we have, for the most part, become an instant gratification society (heck, they even have cheat codes for video games).

If one is serious about this game, he would be well served to have a great deal of patience. The thing about golf is it will always be a journey, never a destination.
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#5 phillyspecial

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 04:04 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 July 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

A golfwrx regular just posted this on my Facebook.

Genius in it’s simplicty.

What’s your favorite training aid to achieve this?



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#6 NoTalentLefty

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.
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#7 Sean2

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 04:11 PM

View PostNoTalentLefty, on 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.

The thing about developing a good short game, is one doesn't need youth, or athleticism to get one. The full swing is a bit more...complicated. :-)
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#8 wmblake2000

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 04:30 PM

Of course, there’s this old Far Side comic of two buzzards sitting on a fence post out in the desert. Barren as far as the eye can see. One buzzard says to the other, “patience my azz. I’m gonna kill something.”
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#9 Singapore Joe

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 06:28 PM

View PostSean2, on 07 July 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

View PostNoTalentLefty, on 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.

The thing about developing a good short game, is one doesn't need youth, or athleticism to get one. The full swing is a bit more...complicated. :-)
I'm suffering from a serious chirrosis of faith and starting to believe that if you don't develop a good swing when you are reasonably young you never will. For those of us who picked up the game in the age of fourty or so there is no salvation no matter how fit and athletic. Keep the drive in play, struggle the ball to the vicinity of the green and hope for a few pars on decent short game, an occassional lucky birdie. Oh yes, stay positive and enjoy the game. Have fun out there. Maybe bring trekking boots the next time.

Comparing to, say, basketball. I played junior basketball and even if I have hardly touched a ball for twenty years (or is it thirty), whenever I do it instantly feels right and I can start tossing it pretty well. It's all there in the muscle memory.
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#10 CasualLie

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 06:45 PM

And along the lines of slow improvement, I would also add on your journey of slow improvement, your gains will often not be reflected in your scores.  It takes awhile for your improvements to show up in consistent scoring below 80.


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#11 rgk5

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 06:53 PM

It took me four years to go from a very solid four handicap to scratch.  Then I fluctuated between scratch and two for 20 years.  Very tough to stay there.

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#12 Nard_S

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 08:58 PM

Faldo took 3 years and he did this stuff for a living.

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#13 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 09:10 PM

View PostNard_S, on 07 July 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

Faldo took 3 years and he did this stuff for a living.

You ask a tour player who practices 40-60 hours a week how long a change takes.  12-18 months before it’s fully ingrained is the average answer you get.

I hear this every day.

“Monte I hit a bucket after our lesson and it still feels weird and im still fading the ball most times.”

Getting better at golf is EXACTLY like losing weight.

You do what’s right every day.  You won’t see any results  this week, you’ll likely have chronic relapses in diet and work out, when you reach your target weight you must still be diligent because old bad eating and workout habits die hard....
And if you’re doing what’s right, you won’t get fatter before you lose weight.

...but if you’re patient and diligent, you’ll get results.

If you step on the scale on day 3 and you haven’t lost any weight and say this doesn’t work and look fo the next quick fix fad diet, you’ll never lose weight.

Fad diets generally don’t have long lasting results for most, whereas proper diet and steady exercise does.

Any of this sound familiar?

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#14 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 09:25 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 July 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 07 July 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

Faldo took 3 years and he did this stuff for a living.

You ask a tour player who practices 40-60 hours a week how long a change takes.  12-18 months before it's fully ingrained is the average answer you get.

I hear this every day.

"Monte I hit a bucket after our lesson and it still feels weird and im still fading the ball most times."

Getting better at golf is EXACTLY like losing weight.

You do what's right every day.  You won't see any results  this week, you'll likely have chronic relapses in diet and work out, when you reach your target weight you must still be diligent because old bad eating and workout habits die hard....
And if you're doing what's right, you won't get fatter before you lose weight.

...but if you're patient and diligent, you'll get results.

If you step on the scale on day 3 and you haven't lost any weight and say this doesn't work and look fo the next quick fix fad diet, you'll never lose weight.

Fad diets generally don't have long lasting results for most, whereas proper diet and steady exercise does.

Any of this sound familiar?

The inevitable result of the bolded above is that golf instructors often get the blame when the student doesn't improve due to a lack of commitment and immediate results.
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#15 hbgpagolfpro

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 09:58 PM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 July 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

A golfwrx regular just posted this on my Facebook.

Genius in it's simplicty.

Word


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#16 MonteScheinblum

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 10:02 PM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 July 2018 - 09:25 PM, said:

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 July 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

View PostNard_S, on 07 July 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

Faldo took 3 years and he did this stuff for a living.

You ask a tour player who practices 40-60 hours a week how long a change takes.  12-18 months before it's fully ingrained is the average answer you get.

I hear this every day.

"Monte I hit a bucket after our lesson and it still feels weird and im still fading the ball most times."

Getting better at golf is EXACTLY like losing weight.

You do what's right every day.  You won't see any results  this week, you'll likely have chronic relapses in diet and work out, when you reach your target weight you must still be diligent because old bad eating and workout habits die hard....
And if you're doing what's right, you won't get fatter before you lose weight.

...but if you're patient and diligent, you'll get results.

If you step on the scale on day 3 and you haven't lost any weight and say this doesn't work and look fo the next quick fix fad diet, you'll never lose weight.

Fad diets generally don't have long lasting results for most, whereas proper diet and steady exercise does.

Any of this sound familiar?

The inevitable result of the bolded above is that golf instructors often get the blame when the student doesn't improve due to a lack of commitment and immediate results.

That part doesn’t bother me at all.  Don’t mind being accountable.  I want people to get better.

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#17 oz dee cee

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 10:11 PM

This thread is very relevant to my current mindset. Thanks for reminding me and putting thngs in perspective....

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#18 FatReed

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 11:17 PM

“Two choices in golf. Improve slowly, or not at all.” (WRXer)

“You ask a tour player who practices 40-60 hours a week how long a change takes.  12-18 months before it's fully ingrained is the average answer you get.” (Monte)

*****

Are you really relating these two grades of golfer in terms of relative and overall improvement? Or WHAT the two are even working toward improving to begin with?

What does 40-60 hrs over 12-18 months for an already proficient tour pro equate to in reference to the avid amateur ‘practicing’ 2-3 hrs per week. . . more time than we have in life.

I sure hope nobody truly believes this; particularly, a golf instructor. It’s not genius, nor true. . . unless your focus is wrong. Then it’s damn near impossible to improve (or sustain) at GOLF. . . at any level.

Monte, I don’t believe for a second you believe the title of your thread, and even more perplexed as to why you suggested it’s ‘genius?’ Golf isn’t easy, but it’s not nearly as difficult as it’s made to be by most.

*****

“Don’t mind being accountable. I want people to get better.” (Monte)

This I like!

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#19 wadesworld

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 12:50 AM

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 July 2018 - 09:25 PM, said:



The inevitable result of the bolded above is that golf instructors often get the blame when the student doesn't improve due to a lack of commitment and immediate results.

In my experience, it's not always a lack of commitment.  Sometimes students just don't get it.

Some students will almost immediately grasp what the instructor is telling them, and figure out a way to develop a feel for the move the instructor wants to happen. These we would term the natural athletes.

Other students after massive numbers of repetitions, will eventually latch on to the desired feel.

And then finally, some students will just never get it. They hear what the instructor wants them to do, but it never clicks. They make a confused, out-of-sync swing and try as they might, it just doesn't get better.  In frustration, they eventually give up or go try another instructor.

I worked for a large portion of my life to eliminate or reduce my OTT swing.  I heard all the things the instructors said.  I did the drills.  "Bump your left hip to start down." "Start down with your hips, not your arms." "Swing out to right field." "Put a box outside your ball." Etc, etc, etc.  Nothing helped much.  Why?  Because no instructor ever thought to ask whether I was trying to hit the ball, or swinging to a target out there. I suppose it never occurred to them to ask, because what moron wouldn't realize the goal is to swing to a target, not hit the ball?  This moron, and a lot like me.

The point being, sometimes it's about the instructor finding the right approach for that student.  While students shouldn't blame instructors when their lack of commitment is at fault, neither should instructors be quick to blame students when the lessons aren't transferring.  It's not always because Danny worked harder. Sometimes it's because Danny just innately better understood how to translate the desired mechanics into a feel.

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#20 ws6

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 01:03 AM

View PostMonteScheinblum, on 07 July 2018 - 09:10 PM, said:

You ask a tour player who practices 40-60 hours a week how long a change takes.  12-18 months before it's fully ingrained is the average answer you get.


My day job includes time at the gun range.  One of the primary firearms instructors always says, "It takes 2,000 reps to learn a new motion and 10,000 repetitions to break a bad one."


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#21 Milkers

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 03:50 AM

Many of Dan Carraher's one lesson before and after videos/photos do not agree.

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#22 WILDTHING

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 05:12 AM

I've just posted a podcast by Dr Gabriele Wulf where they conducted scientific tests using external vs internal focus techniques when teaching novices. She mentions that using external focus techniques (ie. not body part actions but something external to the body or an outcome) showed 'immediate better' results and that the 'external focus novices' retained what they learnt better than the other test groups.

https://soundcloud.c...r-gabriele-wulf

Edited by WILDTHING, 08 July 2018 - 05:21 AM.


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#23 aiyyer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 06:25 AM

View PostSingapore Joe, on 07 July 2018 - 06:28 PM, said:

View PostSean2, on 07 July 2018 - 04:11 PM, said:

View PostNoTalentLefty, on 07 July 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

I still think you can shorten the improvement time by practicing the short game more. But that won’t cure a bad full swing, that takes time.

The thing about developing a good short game, is one doesn't need youth, or athleticism to get one. The full swing is a bit more...complicated. :-)
I'm suffering from a serious chirrosis of faith and starting to believe that if you don't develop a good swing when you are reasonably young you never will. For those of us who picked up the game in the age of fourty or so there is no salvation no matter how fit and athletic. Keep the drive in play, struggle the ball to the vicinity of the green and hope for a few pars on decent short game, an occassional lucky birdie. Oh yes, stay positive and enjoy the game. Have fun out there. Maybe bring trekking boots the next time.

Comparing to, say, basketball. I played junior basketball and even if I have hardly touched a ball for twenty years (or is it thirty), whenever I do it instantly feels right and I can start tossing it pretty well. It's all there in the muscle memory.
Very true - my sport was tennis and I picked up golf at 40 also.

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#24 oukeith

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 06:55 AM

View PostMilkers, on 08 July 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

Many of Dan Carraher's one lesson before and after videos/photos do not agree.

Golf is a lot easier when your instructor is standing right there.  My teacher can have my swinging like a functional golfer in the lesson, but I lose the feel once I’m on my own.

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#25 airjammer

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 07:42 AM

View Postoukeith, on 08 July 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

View PostMilkers, on 08 July 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

Many of Dan Carraher's one lesson before and after videos/photos do not agree.

Golf is a lot easier when your instructor is standing right there.  My teacher can have my swinging like a functional golfer in the lesson, but I lose the feel once I’m on my own.

Exactly, I spent 12 hours with Dan last December. Swing looked great the last day and was hitting it pure. Once I stepped off the plane back home 90% of what we worked on didn’t stick. I kinda already knew that was going to happen because I never could get a good feel for how to keep my left shoulder down which was the base of the changes we made. Without that piece every other piece that I was trying to do was actually making me worse not better.  Just now in July did I finally find the way to keep my left shoulder down.


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#26 WILDTHING

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:28 AM

View Postairjammer, on 08 July 2018 - 07:42 AM, said:

View Postoukeith, on 08 July 2018 - 06:55 AM, said:

View PostMilkers, on 08 July 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

Many of Dan Carraher's one lesson before and after videos/photos do not agree.

Golf is a lot easier when your instructor is standing right there.  My teacher can have my swinging like a functional golfer in the lesson, but I lose the feel once I'm on my own.

Exactly, I spent 12 hours with Dan last December. Swing looked great the last day and was hitting it pure. Once I stepped off the plane back home 90% of what we worked on didn't stick. I kinda already knew that was going to happen because I never could get a good feel for how to keep my left shoulder down which was the base of the changes we made. Without that piece every other piece that I was trying to do was actually making me worse not better.  Just now in July did I finally find the way to keep my left shoulder down.

May I ask what you did to keep that left shoulder down?

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#27 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:36 AM

View PostMilkers, on 08 July 2018 - 03:50 AM, said:

Many of Dan Carraher's one lesson before and after videos/photos do not agree.

Anyone can make a recommended change for a swing or two. But all will revert to old patterns if the change is not ingrained.
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#28 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:42 AM

View Postwadesworld, on 08 July 2018 - 12:50 AM, said:

View PostGhost of Snead, on 07 July 2018 - 09:25 PM, said:

The inevitable result of the bolded above is that golf instructors often get the blame when the student doesn't improve due to a lack of commitment and immediate results.

In my experience, it's not always a lack of commitment.  Sometimes students just don't get it.

Some students will almost immediately grasp what the instructor is telling them, and figure out a way to develop a feel for the move the instructor wants to happen. These we would term the natural athletes.

Other students after massive numbers of repetitions, will eventually latch on to the desired feel.

And then finally, some students will just never get it. They hear what the instructor wants them to do, but it never clicks. They make a confused, out-of-sync swing and try as they might, it just doesn't get better.  In frustration, they eventually give up or go try another instructor.

I worked for a large portion of my life to eliminate or reduce my OTT swing.  I heard all the things the instructors said.  I did the drills.  "Bump your left hip to start down." "Start down with your hips, not your arms." "Swing out to right field." "Put a box outside your ball." Etc, etc, etc.  Nothing helped much.  Why?  Because no instructor ever thought to ask whether I was trying to hit the ball, or swinging to a target out there. I suppose it never occurred to them to ask, because what moron wouldn't realize the goal is to swing to a target, not hit the ball?  This moron, and a lot like me.

The point being, sometimes it's about the instructor finding the right approach for that student.  While students shouldn't blame instructors when their lack of commitment is at fault, neither should instructors be quick to blame students when the lessons aren't transferring.  It's not always because Danny worked harder. Sometimes it's because Danny just innately better understood how to translate the desired mechanics into a feel.

There is nothing wrong with going to another instructor - pros change instructors all the time. But pros understand that change takes time, while the average amateur thinks he/she should get it with a few buckets of balls.

Edited by Ghost of Snead, 08 July 2018 - 08:42 AM.

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#29 MadGolfer76

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    Admiration is the state furthest from understanding.

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 08:47 AM

Monte, just from reading your posts, I have the impression you are a great teacher with great ideas, but the notion that all change and learning has to come slowly is false, and it is a shame that people have widely accepted this trope. It is true that some people need more time than others, but it is also true that many other students learn and assimilate information very rapidly. If people (excluding our preferred WRX instructors, of course) spent as much time studying the fields of educational psychology and instructional practice as they do Trackman datasets, they would have a better idea what is possible in terms of progressing student learning.

Edited by MadGolfer76, 08 July 2018 - 08:50 AM.

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#30 Ghost of Snead

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Posted 08 July 2018 - 09:00 AM

View PostFatReed, on 07 July 2018 - 11:17 PM, said:

"Two choices in golf. Improve slowly, or not at all." (WRXer)

"You ask a tour player who practices 40-60 hours a week how long a change takes.  12-18 months before it's fully ingrained is the average answer you get." (Monte)

*****

Are you really relating these two grades of golfer in terms of relative and overall improvement? Or WHAT the two are even working toward improving to begin with?

What does 40-60 hrs over 12-18 months for an already proficient tour pro equate to in reference to the avid amateur 'practicing' 2-3 hrs per week. . . more time than we have in life.

I sure hope nobody truly believes this; particularly, a golf instructor. It's not genius, nor true. . . unless your focus is wrong. Then it's damn near impossible to improve (or sustain) at GOLF. . . at any level.

Monte, I don't believe for a second you believe the title of your thread, and even more perplexed as to why you suggested it's 'genius?' Golf isn't easy, but it's not nearly as difficult as it's made to be by most.

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"Don't mind being accountable. I want people to get better." (Monte)

This I like!

FR

Tell us what Tiger's focus was when he made all of the swing changes under Harmon, Haney & Foley and how long it took to make them.

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