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Joel Dahmen accuses Kang of cheating


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#31 eagle1997

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:33 AM

shot tracker of the hole

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#32 eagle1997

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:35 AM

so, went for it in 2, dropped back where he thought it crossed, then got up and down for par.

joel obviously did not agree.

if sung kang is playing a draw, and it turns into a hook, it doesn't have to carry, correct?  it's where he believes it last crossed the hazard.  if you don't have a straight line view from behind the player, it could certainly appear as an illegal drop.
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#33 TheInfidel

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

Do you even play golf? Seriously.  

The game is built on integrity and honesty.  Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.  Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first.  But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.  There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.
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#34 lopey986

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:37 AM

View Postjonsnow, on 02 July 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

Admit I didn't see it, but think Dahmen would have been better off leaving out "Kang cheated" & just presented the facts as he saw them.

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

considering the rules official sided with Kang, calling him a cheater makes him look really bad in my opinion.

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#35 eagle1997

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:40 AM

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.

here's joel's shot tracker.  his tee shot was well right of sung kang's tee shot.  unless he walked over to get a better view, from his angle, there is *literally* no way he could tell where the ball crossed.

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#36 gvogel

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM

View PostTLUBulldogGolf, on 02 July 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

Good to see someone call out another player if they feel they are breaking the rules. Don't see how it could go back and forth for so long though.

Also let's be real that hat was awful...

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#37 The General

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM

20 min and no rules official showed up? They had to let a group play through, lol

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#38 lopey986

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

Do you even play golf? Seriously.  

The game is built on integrity and honesty.  Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.  Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first.  But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.  There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.

And the rules official ruled in Kangs favor, not even sure where the grey area is on this. JD is wrong for calling Kang a cheater when a rules official sided with Kang.

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#39 cvhookem63

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:43 AM

View Posteagle1997, on 02 July 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.

here's joel's shot tracker.  his tee shot was well right of sung kang's tee shot.  unless he walked over to get a better view, from his angle, there is *literally* no way he could tell where the ball crossed.

Posted Image

It looks like Joel hit first, so I bet he walked and stood out to the right side of the fairway while Kang hit his 2nd. This would have given him a little bit better of an angle, but that is still a ways away to be calling him a cheater - especially when the rules official sided with Kang.
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#40 jonsnow

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:43 AM

View Postbscinstnct, on 02 July 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

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Are they playing Duck, Duck, Rangoon?

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#41 lopey986

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:43 AM

View PostThe General, on 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

20 min and no rules official showed up? They had to let a group play through, lol

A rules official was there, JD said he spent the entire time arguing with him til he was "blue in the face".

Honestly, not a good look for JD. Why so petty? He wasn't in contention and Kang wasn't costing him any money. Call in a rules official and let them decide and move on.

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#42 MtlJeff

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:45 AM

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

Do you even play golf? Seriously.  

The game is built on integrity and honesty.  Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.  Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first.  But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.  There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.

Why, because no one who ever had a strong opinion on twitter is wrong?

Kang would be within his rights to sue in this case. Much as Mickelson threatened to sue over being called a cheater for using the Eye2

Either he can prove it or he can't. If he can't he shouldn't post opinion as fact. And since it was blessed by an official I'd side with Kang here pending further evidence
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#43 cvhookem63

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:45 AM

View Postlopey986, on 02 July 2018 - 09:43 AM, said:

View PostThe General, on 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

20 min and no rules official showed up? They had to let a group play through, lol

A rules official was there, JD said he spent the entire time arguing with him til he was "blue in the face".

Honestly, not a good look for JD. Why so petty? He wasn't in contention and Kang wasn't costing him any money. Call in a rules official and let them decide and move on.

Maybe he got a taste of the energy and drama surrounding playing with Tiger on Saturday and tried to re-create it himself on Sunday.
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#44 mizuno player

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:46 AM

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

Do you even play golf? Seriously.  

The game is built on integrity and honesty.  Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.  Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first.  But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.  There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.

Ok. I'll bite. Yes big guy I play golf. Can you read? I didn't say there was bias. I Said. Someone could say there was bias.

The Only thing I said was. Saying someone cheated is a strong thing to say.

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#45 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:48 AM

View Postlopey986, on 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

Do you even play golf? Seriously.  

The game is built on integrity and honesty.  Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.  Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first.  But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.  There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.

And the rules official ruled in Kangs favor, not even sure where the grey area is on this. JD is wrong for calling Kang a cheater when a rules official sided with Kang.
I believe that the rules require that the player, not his playing competitor, uses his best judgement as to where or if the ball crossed the hazard. Given this (and no video evidence to the contrary) the rules official had no choice but to side with Kang as long as Kang said in my best judgement it crossed the hazard up by the green. Even if Kang was lying, the rules official has to side with him when it is a he said he said situation. At least that's my take on it.

Edited by SkiSchoolPro, 02 July 2018 - 09:50 AM.

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#46 Frankensteins Monster

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 09:51 AM

Where Kang's ball went in even a slight draw has it going in where he dropped. No chance in hell Dahmen can see that from the angle where he would have been standing. He was on a completely different angle.

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#47 TheInfidel

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:00 AM

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

View PostTheInfidel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

View Postmizuno player, on 02 July 2018 - 09:01 AM, said:

Saying someone cheated is a strong claim.

Couldn't the other guy claim bias and say he wanted me to make a higher score so he could move up and make more money?

Do you even play golf? Seriously.  

The game is built on integrity and honesty.  Sounds to me like a run of the mill cheat if JD is correct.  Like everyone else I'd like to see the footage first.  But I don't think he'd use that language on twitter unless he was 100%.  There doesn't need to be any bias, the drop was either within the bounds of the rules or it was not.

Ok. I'll bite. Yes big guy I play golf. Can you read? I didn't say there was bias. I Said. Someone could say there was bias.

The Only thing I said was. Saying someone cheated is a strong thing to say.

Totally agree - calling someone out as a cheater is a big claim, and one which shouldn't be made lightly.  As a result, I have assumed (and I could 100% be wrong) that JD is confident about his assertion before he argues with a rules official for long enough to have to let a group through, or to call someone out on twitter.  

The point I was making off the back of your comment is that I think it's wrong to assume that his motive was ranking/$$$ driven.  That's not really something you see in pro golfers.  

It's easy to type up a comment looking at shot tracker, but there has to be some stock in the guy that was standing maybe 30 yards from the player who struck the ball.  

I think we'd both like to see some footage for the sake of the debate, but I can't find any.
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#48 jeromek

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:00 AM

I can understand a difference in opinion in terms of where the ball went in.  But to call someone a cheater on twitter, after you lost the dispute with the rules official, and after you signed the scorecard, is just a bad look.  You can say, we disagreed on the drop, but calling someone a cheater is disrespectful.
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#49 eagle1997

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:06 AM

just a guess: from 25 yards away, the red line is what JD thought he saw.  yellow line is what actually happened.  from his angle, he believed that SK was cheating... but it may not have been accurate.

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#50 farmer

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:06 AM

It's always a judgement call on where a ball crosses the line, particularly from a couple of hundred yards away.  Players have to use their best estimate.  Unless Dahmen raced over to get behind Kang, he had no angle from which to judge.  Players need to protect the field, but to argue endlessly after the rules official made his call is just ridiculous.

Edited by farmer, 02 July 2018 - 10:08 AM.


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#51 bscinstnct

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:11 AM

He cheated, I tells ya!


Posted Image

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#52 SkiSchoolPro

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:12 AM

View Posteagle1997, on 02 July 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

just a guess: from 25 yards away, the red line is what JD thought he saw.  yellow line is what actually happened.  from his angle, he believed that SK was cheating... but it may not have been accurate.

Posted Image
Great PIc...not exactly sure where the hazard line is, but your yellow line does depict a possible senario (where the ball started ~20 yards right of the green and ended ~20 yards left). My guess is that JD was 100% sure the ball did not cross and that it is 80% likely he is right.
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#53 eagle1997

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:16 AM

View Postfarmer, on 02 July 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

It's always a judgement call on where a ball crosses the line, particularly from a couple of hundred yards away.  Players have to use their best estimate.  Unless Dahmen raced over to get behind Kang, he had no angle from which to judge.  Players need to protect the field, but to argue endlessly after the rules official made his call is just ridiculous.

i don't mind the arguing, he's protecting the field.  i don't like the fact that he signed the card and then went to twitter to explicitly say that sung kang was a cheater.  odds on JD issuing an social media apology within the next 48 hours?
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#54 hlca

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:20 AM

He's the golf version of Permit Patty.
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#55 ShortStick

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:25 AM

Does JD's comment about the ball not crossing the hazard imply a fade and not a draw? If the ball was moving left to right, then the point of entry would be way back unless it carried the hazard and bounced back in off the bank. Either way it is the player who has the best view and decides.


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#56 sekrah

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:32 AM

Kang cheating might have kept Tiger out of the Bridgestone unless he goes Top 10 at the Open.

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#57 TLUBulldogGolf

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:34 AM

View Postgvogel, on 02 July 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View PostTLUBulldogGolf, on 02 July 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

Good to see someone call out another player if they feel they are breaking the rules. Don't see how it could go back and forth for so long though.

Also let's be real that hat was awful...

I like the hat - it does a great job of protecting the face.  Where can I get one?

Not sure but I hear you get a free bowl of soup with it.
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#58 NevinW

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:36 AM

He'll live to regret that tweet. Accusing someone of cheating is a dangerous thing.   All of these "where did it cross the water hazard line" drops are endlessly debatable even with video because of the camera angles.

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#59 PuttLeftHitRight

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:36 AM

View Posteagle1997, on 02 July 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

just a guess: from 25 yards away, the red line is what JD thought he saw.  yellow line is what actually happened.  from his angle, he believed that SK was cheating... but it may not have been accurate.

Posted Image

I think JD is saying he did not hit the ball that far. It draw as your yellow line suggests, but didn't carry far enough to get up by the green.

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#60 JaNelson38

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 10:36 AM

View Postfarmer, on 02 July 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

It's always a judgement call on where a ball crosses the line, particularly from a couple of hundred yards away.  Players have to use their best estimate.  Unless Dahmen raced over to get behind Kang, he had no angle from which to judge.  Players need to protect the field, but to argue endlessly after the rules official made his call is just ridiculous.

Joel said that the ball did not cross the hazard...he doesnt need to be directly behind Kang to see that.  In fact, having an angle more to the side probably gives him a decent view of that.  Based on the shape of the hole from shot tracker, and where Kang's shot went according to shot tracker, the ball not crossing the hazard vs. crossing the hazard is probably a big deal.  Kang almost certainly wouldnt be able to save par if he wasnt able to say the ball crossed the hazard so he can take the ball back as far as he wanted to give himself an angle for his 4th shot.

Edit: that being said, if Joel is adamant that Kang broke the rules, then dont sign his card.  Make the rules official do it then, as he said would have happened.  Dont stand on principle on Twitter by calling a guy a cheater after you've signed his card.  His story would have more to stand on had he refused to sign Kang's card.

Edited by JaNelson38, 02 July 2018 - 10:42 AM.


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